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Hmmm. The “Lonely” that was released in 1985 bears very little resemblance to the jam recorded in 1979, and I find it very hard to believe Keith had a hand in its narrative about an aspiring actress. It’s possible he came up with the title.
he obviously came up with some part of it if, in 1985, Jagger was still ok with giving him a writing credit. It may have only been a title and a few lines but was still evidently enough.
The 'jam recorded in 1979' is simply the one version that happened to be bootlegged. Its quite possible that a more fully realised Stones version was recorded that we haven't heard.
Its a rough demo with unfinished lyrics. Of course the vocals are 'terrible'.
and maybe its a first take. Why assume this is what it sounded like after being worked on for ages?
'Satisfaction' probably sounded like shit when they were trying it out as well.
They did about 20-30 songs like this in about a month and released four of them.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:46 by Gazza.
Yeah a bit harsh but i'm beginning to wonder if Mick has this boring attitude towards Keith's songs in the studio.
It brings to mind Mick singing One More Shot live, he acted like he didn't want to bother with it so it gets dropped from the set. He stumbles through it like it was too awkward to get his chops round, looked like an armature.
Meanwhile he gave everything he had into Doom And Gloom.
And lets face it One More Shot is classic Stones
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 18:00 by keithsman.
I guess, everything, where Jagger and Richards worked together, gets the topic "Jagger / Richards", no matter if Taylor or Faithful or other were involved in songwriting. Even if they were released as solo stuff, as LONELY AT THE TOP proves. I think, Keith broke that agreement with TROUBLE (maybe he anticipated trouble with Jagger - just a joke). It COULD be, that BECAUSE ist mostly written by Jagger, because the embionic version is sung by him. But that´s speculation. If I would be Jagger, I would be pi...d off.Probably there are some more reasons, look at Richards talking about Jagger in LIFE
Mick’s contribution to AHYS was huge. My suspicion is that *Jordan’s* was minimal at best — and yet he got credit because (again, I suspect) that the Richards/Jordan byline was very much the same kind of pro forma, no-matter-who-did-what arrangement as Jagger/Richards.
It’s interesting to me that that has now changed. Crosseyed Heart saw the first-ever sole Keith Richards compositions in Robbed Blind and Suspicious. It’s not a big deal; it’s not a scandal — but it does signal a change.
One of the reasons Ronnie got co-credited with four tracks on Dirty Work was Keith’s “to hell with that BS” reaction to Mick giving himself sole credit for some of the She’s the Boss songs. We all know Keith is very open about the collaborative “antenna”-like nature of songwriting. I think the claim of sole authorship generally strikes Keith as sort of ... uppity. And so, on Dirty Work, what with Mick being literally absent so often, Keith was adamant that Ronnie got credit on those tracks.
It *could* be that crediting Mick on Crosseyed Heart for everything that orginated from Stones sessions would’ve meant he got credit for half the album, or more. That would’ve looked silly.
I think also Keith wants to give Steve Jordan an incentive for helping Keith along and being there for him.
I doubt Steve has much to do with the writing on Keith's solo albums, but as he's a friend and with him playing on the tracks he gets a credit.
That's not to say Steve doesn't have some input creatively, but not half the album imho.
Its just his voice, doesn't matter that the song isn't finished, Micks voice is irritating, probably the reason i haven't enjoyed the past 4 Studio albums. Look at the Stones at their best with Sticky Fingers and Exile, Mick's voice used to be much lower the mix. Now his voice is just so overwhelming all the way through the albums it just spoils it for me.
BAL was great though , Mick was fantastic on that.
I agree about it having the same vibe, and I think Keith's vocals would fit better in them
"Laugh I Nearly Died" sounds more interesting, but "Cried Out" flows very naturally.
Absolutely agree, these ballads were probably Keith's songs , its written all over them.
We can clearly see from these tracks that Keith's better songs don't get on the album. This should have gone towards making A Bigger Bang a double album. A couple more ballads from Keith would have gone down nicely on a double album or CD.
Keith probably though ok Mick you don't want them, i'll keep them just in case the stones stop. So we get them finished on CH.
As an artist, I can't imagine that the Stones want rough song sketches like these leaking out to the public.
Because you always have people who obviously don't understand what rough song sketches with unfinished lyrics and tentative vocal tryouts are like keithsman/Riffie who never misses a chance to take a stab against Jagger with remarks like these:
"Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him."
And to declare stuff like these tracks as "lost masterpieces" and blame Jagger for it like in his post above, is as far off the mark I could possibly imagine.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 19:34 by retired_dog.
Keith even said so in interviews back then. Like, he doesn't like to write songs all by himself, that in the Stones Mick is his songwriting partner and in the Winos it's Jordan. He also described how they just jammed or fooled around until something worth exploring turned up.
I wonder if that perhaps has to do with the way CH came together. Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I remember, Talk and Offender were recorded in "regular" recording sessions, while CH was recorded in bits over several years.
... or to chew on for the next 13+ years without a new album?
Interesting idea. Although I think Ronnie wouldn't dare to do anything that would get him in trouble with Mick, and leaking these recording sure would mean trouble if it came out, I suppose. Also, his own song (or songs) aren't there. Keith is rather untouchable in this respect. I remember having read several times in the 70s/early 80s that Keith (involuntarily) was the source of a number of bootlegs because he always took audio cassettes with the day's session's recordings with him and freely gave them to people to check them out (or maybe he passed out and people checked for themselves...).
No idea if he still has some such habit, maybe with USB sticks replacing cassette tapes? The files don't sound like they're cassette-based, at least I can't hear any tape hiss (I haven't checked if they are perhaps mp3-sourced). I don't know how the sessions were recorded, on analogue or digital tape or directly into a file. In that case, someone could have taken the files directly from the studio in some way or other. Someone on the Steve Hofmann forum wrote that B2B was completely recorded on analogue tape. But no idea about Paris.
I just say it as i see it and hear it, didn't realize having an opinion that differs with the majority was such a problem, i give Jagger plenty of credit, but i honestly have fallen out of love with his voice when its so high in the mix and what he seems to do with Stones albums production wise, he takes the beauty out of them, these tracks are brilliant, such potential in them.
The point i'm making now is a valid one, most of these songs are Keith's , i can't prove it but it's obvious.
These are excellent tracks, better than most of the stuff on ABB.
It wouldn't surprise me if Keith didn't instigate the release of these unfinished songs
Hey man don't take my views so seriously , Mick is a legend , a genius, the best front man that ever held a mic. Don't let my observations ruin your day.
Sorry i don't follow the herd man, what can i say.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 19:58 by keithsman.
It was leaked in 2014..
Is it known when the songs/files/whatever originally got to the entity from whom they where leaked in 2014? Same year or earlier?
Just wondering - when the basic leak took place in 2014 only it could have happened in the course of Mick/Keith activities reviewing leftovers from earlier sessions for potential use on a new album.
Teddy reported about Trouble/Just Because some years ago, and some friends of mine have had these tapes since then. I don't know anything about how the leak happened, though..
Well, following the herd or not, the one thing I can't agree to is this underlying "if only Keith had his way, we could have had more great Stones albums, blame it all on Jagger"-theme.
Maybe I can't because other than you, I don't see any excellence or even greatness in these tracks. Maybe they could have been developed into something really good, maybe not, I just don't see it, "Cried Out Loud"/"Laugh I Nearly Died" notwithstanding. Even Keith developing "Trouble" out of "Just Because" - while "Trouble" is nice, I see no "Happy", "Little T & A" or at least "Wanna Hold You" here, just like while "Don't Stop", "Doom & Gloom" or "One More Shot" are just nice, they still are no "Start Me Up", "Brown Sugar", "Bitch" or whatever truly classic Stones tracks come in mind.
All in all, these tracks simply show where the Stones were creatively standing 1 1/2 decades ago, nothing more, nothing less, and I can see why Jagger doesn't want to spend weeks or months in the studio like in the old days anymore and prefers to bring more or less developed demos to the table instead. Nuff said.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 21:44 by retired_dog.
I don't think that writing 12 nice tracks together over a couple of years is the problem. I think the burden to come up with 12 great tracks for what most likely will be their final album is somewhat too heavy for them.
Eh, I could do without One More Shot.
Neither of those are the issue, imo ... they just aren't motivated to do it, that's all.
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Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: April 13, 2018 15:08
Quote
GazzaQuote
deardoctorQuote
liddas
Re Trouble:
Keith noted (from timeisonourside.com) "Right where I'm sitting now in my sunroom where I wrote it, it seemed like a real Hank Williams kind of song. But I think Waddy Wachtel pointed out to me that Hank Williams songs - that style of music - can easily be rocked up and moved up. Of course, it could be a rock and roll song! ... So here I'm doing Trouble, and I'm seeing it shifting from like 1949 to like 1958. And yeah, how would the Everlys have handled this? Or Chet Atkins? Or Hank Garland, who is also another guitar player with that kind of style? We just moved it up with the drums. Also, in the back of my mind, I always thought of Trouble in terms of Poor Jenny by the Everly Brothers".
So, one of the two:
The above quote is BS (the Stones' version ain't no Hank Williams), or
Just Before is not an early version of Trouble. Of course there are similarities, but they could be non-intentional. For sure the melody line must be Keith's idea. The credits on CH say K+J
C
So let's face it:
KEITH STOLE TROUBLE FROM THE ROLLING STONES
Jagger did right as he released 1985 "Lonely at the top" credited as jagger / richards although he developed that song much more than keith did with "trouble".
We will never know, what jagger said to that fact, as he listened to trouble first time...
Songwriting credit isn't really an issue until the song is copyrighted or officially released - which the Stones version of this never was. They bring their own demos into a Stones session. This one was evidently one that Mick had no part in writing, in which case theres no reason to give him a songwriting credit. Had the Stones released it, it would have been credited to Jagger-Richards (as per their long standing agreement) or quite possibly Jagger-Richards-Jordan if he had contributed to the music
Its quite likely that Keith may have written a substantial chunk of the version of 'Lonely at the top' (ie, the lyrics) that the Stones recorded in Nassau in 1979, hence his credit as a co-writer on Mick's solo version.
Hmmm. The “Lonely” that was released in 1985 bears very little resemblance to the jam recorded in 1979, and I find it very hard to believe Keith had a hand in its narrative about an aspiring actress. It’s possible he came up with the title.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Rip This
()
Date: April 13, 2018 15:10
.....U Don't Wanna is a killer track....love these out takes...The Glimmers are not dead.....if this is just lying around collecting dust...there's a lot more they can produce...they need to decide if it's worth doing so....impressive leak....wow.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: April 13, 2018 16:55
Quote
MelBelliQuote
GazzaQuote
deardoctorQuote
liddas
Re Trouble:
Keith noted (from timeisonourside.com) "Right where I'm sitting now in my sunroom where I wrote it, it seemed like a real Hank Williams kind of song. But I think Waddy Wachtel pointed out to me that Hank Williams songs - that style of music - can easily be rocked up and moved up. Of course, it could be a rock and roll song! ... So here I'm doing Trouble, and I'm seeing it shifting from like 1949 to like 1958. And yeah, how would the Everlys have handled this? Or Chet Atkins? Or Hank Garland, who is also another guitar player with that kind of style? We just moved it up with the drums. Also, in the back of my mind, I always thought of Trouble in terms of Poor Jenny by the Everly Brothers".
So, one of the two:
The above quote is BS (the Stones' version ain't no Hank Williams), or
Just Before is not an early version of Trouble. Of course there are similarities, but they could be non-intentional. For sure the melody line must be Keith's idea. The credits on CH say K+J
C
So let's face it:
KEITH STOLE TROUBLE FROM THE ROLLING STONES
Jagger did right as he released 1985 "Lonely at the top" credited as jagger / richards although he developed that song much more than keith did with "trouble".
We will never know, what jagger said to that fact, as he listened to trouble first time...
Songwriting credit isn't really an issue until the song is copyrighted or officially released - which the Stones version of this never was. They bring their own demos into a Stones session. This one was evidently one that Mick had no part in writing, in which case theres no reason to give him a songwriting credit. Had the Stones released it, it would have been credited to Jagger-Richards (as per their long standing agreement) or quite possibly Jagger-Richards-Jordan if he had contributed to the music
Its quite likely that Keith may have written a substantial chunk of the version of 'Lonely at the top' (ie, the lyrics) that the Stones recorded in Nassau in 1979, hence his credit as a co-writer on Mick's solo version.
Hmmm. The “Lonely” that was released in 1985 bears very little resemblance to the jam recorded in 1979, and I find it very hard to believe Keith had a hand in its narrative about an aspiring actress. It’s possible he came up with the title.
he obviously came up with some part of it if, in 1985, Jagger was still ok with giving him a writing credit. It may have only been a title and a few lines but was still evidently enough.
The 'jam recorded in 1979' is simply the one version that happened to be bootlegged. Its quite possible that a more fully realised Stones version was recorded that we haven't heard.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:22
All of that might be true. I’m just saying I think the universal Jagger/Richards byline is a courtesy they extend to each other: anything that is released or merely conceptualized on The Rolling Stones shingle gets the same authorial rubber stamp.
Keith, to his credit, has a similar relationship with Jordan. I doubt Steve had terribly much to do with AHYS or OMS in the early going. But they started out as Winos ideas —- and so Keith did him a solid and gave him credit.
It’s not a scandal or anything, but I do, now that it’s been pointed out, think that it’s at least mildly curious that Keith didn’t extend the same courtesy to Mick on Trouble, Nothing on Me, etc.
Keith, to his credit, has a similar relationship with Jordan. I doubt Steve had terribly much to do with AHYS or OMS in the early going. But they started out as Winos ideas —- and so Keith did him a solid and gave him credit.
It’s not a scandal or anything, but I do, now that it’s been pointed out, think that it’s at least mildly curious that Keith didn’t extend the same courtesy to Mick on Trouble, Nothing on Me, etc.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:39
Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:40 by keithsman.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:40 by keithsman.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:42
But Mick finished the lyrics for Almost Hear You Sigh. As far as I recall, all the songs on Talk is Cheap are credited to Richards-Jordan, so they evidently worked as a songwriting team on those sessions.
If Mick and Keith give up any part of a songwriting credit to any third party on a Stones record (including Ronnie), its safe to assume they had a sizeable hand in that song's composition. As we all know, there have been quite a few occasions down the years where they either did so belatedly (Marianne) or not at all (Mick Taylor)
If Mick and Keith give up any part of a songwriting credit to any third party on a Stones record (including Ronnie), its safe to assume they had a sizeable hand in that song's composition. As we all know, there have been quite a few occasions down the years where they either did so belatedly (Marianne) or not at all (Mick Taylor)
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:43
Quote
keithsman
Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him.
Its a rough demo with unfinished lyrics. Of course the vocals are 'terrible'.and maybe its a first take. Why assume this is what it sounded like after being worked on for ages?
'Satisfaction' probably sounded like shit when they were trying it out as well.
They did about 20-30 songs like this in about a month and released four of them.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:46 by Gazza.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
peoplewitheyes
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:46
Hey keithsman, your 'terrible vocals' comment is a little harsh. Clearly these are just run=throughs, with Jagger trying to get a handle on melody, phrasing etc. scatting his way around before the lyrics are set.
Maybe Mick grew bored of it after going round in cirles with his podner, while the latter tries to remember what the intro had been like...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:49 by peoplewitheyes.
Maybe Mick grew bored of it after going round in cirles with his podner, while the latter tries to remember what the intro had been like...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 17:49 by peoplewitheyes.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Cristiano Radtke
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:49
Quote
GazzaQuote
keithsman
Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him.
and maybe its a first take. Why assume this is what it sounded like after being worked on for ages?
'Satisfaction' probably sounded like shit when they were trying it out as well.
They did about 20-30 songs like this in about a month and released four of them.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:55
Quote
peoplewitheyes
Hey keithsman, your 'terrible vocals' comment is a little harsh. Clearly these are just run=throughs, with Jagger trying to get a handle on melody, phrasing etc. scatting his way around before the lyrics are set.
Maybe Mick grew bored of it after going round in cirles with his podner, while the latter tries to remember what the intro had been like...
Yeah a bit harsh but i'm beginning to wonder if Mick has this boring attitude towards Keith's songs in the studio.
It brings to mind Mick singing One More Shot live, he acted like he didn't want to bother with it so it gets dropped from the set. He stumbles through it like it was too awkward to get his chops round, looked like an armature.
Meanwhile he gave everything he had into Doom And Gloom.
And lets face it One More Shot is classic Stones
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 18:00 by keithsman.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
deardoctor
()
Date: April 13, 2018 17:59
Quote
MelBelliQuote
GazzaQuote
deardoctorQuote
liddas
Re Trouble:
Keith noted (from timeisonourside.com) "Right where I'm sitting now in my sunroom where I wrote it, it seemed like a real Hank Williams kind of song. But I think Waddy Wachtel pointed out to me that Hank Williams songs - that style of music - can easily be rocked up and moved up. Of course, it could be a rock and roll song! ... So here I'm doing Trouble, and I'm seeing it shifting from like 1949 to like 1958. And yeah, how would the Everlys have handled this? Or Chet Atkins? Or Hank Garland, who is also another guitar player with that kind of style? We just moved it up with the drums. Also, in the back of my mind, I always thought of Trouble in terms of Poor Jenny by the Everly Brothers".
So, one of the two:
The above quote is BS (the Stones' version ain't no Hank Williams), or
Just Before is not an early version of Trouble. Of course there are similarities, but they could be non-intentional. For sure the melody line must be Keith's idea. The credits on CH say K+J
C
So let's face it:
KEITH STOLE TROUBLE FROM THE ROLLING STONES
Jagger did right as he released 1985 "Lonely at the top" credited as jagger / richards although he developed that song much more than keith did with "trouble".
We will never know, what jagger said to that fact, as he listened to trouble first time...
Songwriting credit isn't really an issue until the song is copyrighted or officially released - which the Stones version of this never was. They bring their own demos into a Stones session. This one was evidently one that Mick had no part in writing, in which case theres no reason to give him a songwriting credit. Had the Stones released it, it would have been credited to Jagger-Richards (as per their long standing agreement) or quite possibly Jagger-Richards-Jordan if he had contributed to the music
Its quite likely that Keith may have written a substantial chunk of the version of 'Lonely at the top' (ie, the lyrics) that the Stones recorded in Nassau in 1979, hence his credit as a co-writer on Mick's solo version.
Hmmm. The “Lonely” that was released in 1985 bears very little resemblance to the jam recorded in 1979, and I find it very hard to believe Keith had a hand in its narrative about an aspiring actress. It’s possible he came up with the title.
I guess, everything, where Jagger and Richards worked together, gets the topic "Jagger / Richards", no matter if Taylor or Faithful or other were involved in songwriting. Even if they were released as solo stuff, as LONELY AT THE TOP proves. I think, Keith broke that agreement with TROUBLE (maybe he anticipated trouble with Jagger - just a joke). It COULD be, that BECAUSE ist mostly written by Jagger, because the embionic version is sung by him. But that´s speculation. If I would be Jagger, I would be pi...d off.Probably there are some more reasons, look at Richards talking about Jagger in LIFE
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
MelBelli
()
Date: April 13, 2018 18:02
Quote
Gazza
But Mick finished the lyrics for Almost Hear You Sigh. As far as I recall, all the songs on Talk is Cheap are credited to Richards-Jordan, so they evidently worked as a songwriting team on those sessions.
If Mick and Keith give up any part of a songwriting credit to any third party on a Stones record (including Ronnie), its safe to assume they had a sizeable hand in that song's composition. As we all know, there have been quite a few occasions down the years where they either did so belatedly (Marianne) or not at all (Mick Taylor)
Mick’s contribution to AHYS was huge. My suspicion is that *Jordan’s* was minimal at best — and yet he got credit because (again, I suspect) that the Richards/Jordan byline was very much the same kind of pro forma, no-matter-who-did-what arrangement as Jagger/Richards.
It’s interesting to me that that has now changed. Crosseyed Heart saw the first-ever sole Keith Richards compositions in Robbed Blind and Suspicious. It’s not a big deal; it’s not a scandal — but it does signal a change.
One of the reasons Ronnie got co-credited with four tracks on Dirty Work was Keith’s “to hell with that BS” reaction to Mick giving himself sole credit for some of the She’s the Boss songs. We all know Keith is very open about the collaborative “antenna”-like nature of songwriting. I think the claim of sole authorship generally strikes Keith as sort of ... uppity. And so, on Dirty Work, what with Mick being literally absent so often, Keith was adamant that Ronnie got credit on those tracks.
It *could* be that crediting Mick on Crosseyed Heart for everything that orginated from Stones sessions would’ve meant he got credit for half the album, or more. That would’ve looked silly.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 18:10
Quote
MelBelliQuote
Gazza
But Mick finished the lyrics for Almost Hear You Sigh. As far as I recall, all the songs on Talk is Cheap are credited to Richards-Jordan, so they evidently worked as a songwriting team on those sessions.
If Mick and Keith give up any part of a songwriting credit to any third party on a Stones record (including Ronnie), its safe to assume they had a sizeable hand in that song's composition. As we all know, there have been quite a few occasions down the years where they either did so belatedly (Marianne) or not at all (Mick Taylor)
Mick’s contribution to AHYS was huge. My suspicion is that *Jordan’s* was minimal at best — and yet he got credit because (again, I suspect) that the Richards/Jordan byline was very much the same kind of pro forma, no-matter-who-did-what arrangement as Jagger/Richards.
It’s interesting to me that that has now changed. Crosseyed Heart saw the first-ever sole Keith Richards compositions in Robbed Blind and Suspicious. It’s not a big deal; it’s not a scandal — but it does signal a change.
One of the reasons Ronnie got co-credited with four tracks on Dirty Work was Keith’s “to hell with that BS” reaction to Mick giving himself sole credit for some of the She’s the Boss songs. We all know Keith is very open about the collaborative “antenna”-like nature of songwriting. I think the claim of sole authorship generally strikes Keith as sort of ... uppity. And so, on Dirty Work, what with Mick being literally absent so often, Keith was adamant that Ronnie got credit on those tracks.
It *could* be that crediting Mick on Crosseyed Heart for everything that orginated from Stones sessions would’ve meant he got credit for half the album, or more. That would’ve looked silly.
I think also Keith wants to give Steve Jordan an incentive for helping Keith along and being there for him.
I doubt Steve has much to do with the writing on Keith's solo albums, but as he's a friend and with him playing on the tracks he gets a credit.
That's not to say Steve doesn't have some input creatively, but not half the album imho.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 18:27
Quote
GazzaQuote
keithsman
Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him.
and maybe its a first take. Why assume this is what it sounded like after being worked on for ages?
'Satisfaction' probably sounded like shit when they were trying it out as well.
They did about 20-30 songs like this in about a month and released four of them.
Its just his voice, doesn't matter that the song isn't finished, Micks voice is irritating, probably the reason i haven't enjoyed the past 4 Studio albums. Look at the Stones at their best with Sticky Fingers and Exile, Mick's voice used to be much lower the mix. Now his voice is just so overwhelming all the way through the albums it just spoils it for me.
BAL was great though , Mick was fantastic on that.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: April 13, 2018 18:30
How can we be sure that Mick really had anything to do with the writing of the early Crosseyed Heart version...he's basically just humming along looking for a melody or whatever.
I've only listened to these leaks in full a couple of times, but maybe there's something amidst the banter before Because that indicates Mick adds something else?
Whatever the case, glad it was resurrected by Keith and Jordan, and properly recorded the way it eventually was.
Could be an official leak?
To whet the appetites of diehards for the supposed forthcoming album?
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
I've only listened to these leaks in full a couple of times, but maybe there's something amidst the banter before Because that indicates Mick adds something else?
Whatever the case, glad it was resurrected by Keith and Jordan, and properly recorded the way it eventually was.
Quote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen
Could be an official leak?
To whet the appetites of diehards for the supposed forthcoming album?
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Wild Slivovitz
()
Date: April 13, 2018 18:49
Quote
ironbelly
When I call your name - is it me or it firmly sits somewhere between Make No Mistake and Hate It When You Leave?
I agree about it having the same vibe, and I think Keith's vocals would fit better in them
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Wild Slivovitz
()
Date: April 13, 2018 19:04
Quote
peoplewitheyes
I also agree that "Cried Out" is very clearly the embryonic "Laugh, I Nearly Died". The feel, the tension in Mick´s melody, the chord changes, some of the lyrical touches.
"Laugh I Nearly Died" sounds more interesting, but "Cried Out" flows very naturally.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 19:26
Quote
Wild SlivovitzQuote
ironbelly
When I call your name - is it me or it firmly sits somewhere between Make No Mistake and Hate It When You Leave?
I agree about it having the same vibe, and I think Keith's vocals would fit better in them
Absolutely agree, these ballads were probably Keith's songs , its written all over them.
We can clearly see from these tracks that Keith's better songs don't get on the album. This should have gone towards making A Bigger Bang a double album. A couple more ballads from Keith would have gone down nicely on a double album or CD.
Keith probably though ok Mick you don't want them, i'll keep them just in case the stones stop. So we get them finished on CH.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: April 13, 2018 19:27
Quote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen
As an artist, I can't imagine that the Stones want rough song sketches like these leaking out to the public.
Because you always have people who obviously don't understand what rough song sketches with unfinished lyrics and tentative vocal tryouts are like keithsman/Riffie who never misses a chance to take a stab against Jagger with remarks like these:
"Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him."
And to declare stuff like these tracks as "lost masterpieces" and blame Jagger for it like in his post above, is as far off the mark I could possibly imagine.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 19:34 by retired_dog.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 13, 2018 19:44
Quote
Gazza
As far as I recall, all the songs on Talk is Cheap are credited to Richards-Jordan, so they evidently worked as a songwriting team on those sessions.
Keith even said so in interviews back then. Like, he doesn't like to write songs all by himself, that in the Stones Mick is his songwriting partner and in the Winos it's Jordan. He also described how they just jammed or fooled around until something worth exploring turned up.
Quote
MelBelli
It’s interesting to me that that has now changed. Crosseyed Heart saw the first-ever sole Keith Richards compositions in Robbed Blind and Suspicious. It’s not a big deal; it’s not a scandal — but it does signal a change.
I wonder if that perhaps has to do with the way CH came together. Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I remember, Talk and Offender were recorded in "regular" recording sessions, while CH was recorded in bits over several years.
Quote
Hairball
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
... or to chew on for the next 13+ years without a new album?
Quote
Hairball
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?
Interesting idea. Although I think Ronnie wouldn't dare to do anything that would get him in trouble with Mick, and leaking these recording sure would mean trouble if it came out, I suppose. Also, his own song (or songs) aren't there. Keith is rather untouchable in this respect. I remember having read several times in the 70s/early 80s that Keith (involuntarily) was the source of a number of bootlegs because he always took audio cassettes with the day's session's recordings with him and freely gave them to people to check them out (or maybe he passed out and people checked for themselves...).
No idea if he still has some such habit, maybe with USB sticks replacing cassette tapes? The files don't sound like they're cassette-based, at least I can't hear any tape hiss (I haven't checked if they are perhaps mp3-sourced). I don't know how the sessions were recorded, on analogue or digital tape or directly into a file. In that case, someone could have taken the files directly from the studio in some way or other. Someone on the Steve Hofmann forum wrote that B2B was completely recorded on analogue tape. But no idea about Paris.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 19:47
Quote
retired_dogQuote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen
As an artist, I can't imagine that the Stones want rough song sketches like these leaking out to the public.
Because you always have people who obviously don't understand what rough song sketches with unfinished lyrics and tentative vocal tryouts are like keithsman/Riffie who never misses a chance to take a stab against Jagger with remarks like these:
"Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him."
I just say it as i see it and hear it, didn't realize having an opinion that differs with the majority was such a problem, i give Jagger plenty of credit, but i honestly have fallen out of love with his voice when its so high in the mix and what he seems to do with Stones albums production wise, he takes the beauty out of them, these tracks are brilliant, such potential in them.
The point i'm making now is a valid one, most of these songs are Keith's , i can't prove it but it's obvious.
These are excellent tracks, better than most of the stuff on ABB.
It wouldn't surprise me if Keith didn't instigate the release of these unfinished songs
Hey man don't take my views so seriously , Mick is a legend , a genius, the best front man that ever held a mic. Don't let my observations ruin your day.
Sorry i don't follow the herd man, what can i say.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 19:58 by keithsman.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 20:50
Quote
Hairball
How can we be sure that Mick really had anything to do with the writing of the early Crosseyed Heart version...he's basically just humming along looking for a melody or whatever.
I've only listened to these leaks in full a couple of times, but maybe there's something amidst the banter before Because that indicates Mick adds something else?
Whatever the case, glad it was resurrected by Keith and Jordan, and properly recorded the way it eventually was.Quote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen
Could be an official leak?
To whet the appetites of diehards for the supposed forthcoming album?
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?
It was leaked in 2014..
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
doitywoik
()
Date: April 13, 2018 21:01
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It was leaked in 2014..
Is it known when the songs/files/whatever originally got to the entity from whom they where leaked in 2014? Same year or earlier?
Just wondering - when the basic leak took place in 2014 only it could have happened in the course of Mick/Keith activities reviewing leftovers from earlier sessions for potential use on a new album.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 13, 2018 21:05
Quote
doitywoikQuote
DandelionPowderman
It was leaked in 2014..
Is it known when the songs/files/whatever originally got to the entity from whom they where leaked in 2014? Same year or earlier?
Just wondering - when the basic leak took place in 2014 only it could have happened in the course of Mick/Keith activities reviewing leftovers from earlier sessions for potential use on a new album.
Teddy reported about Trouble/Just Because some years ago, and some friends of mine have had these tapes since then. I don't know anything about how the leak happened, though..
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: April 13, 2018 21:42
Quote
keithsmanQuote
retired_dogQuote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen
As an artist, I can't imagine that the Stones want rough song sketches like these leaking out to the public.
Because you always have people who obviously don't understand what rough song sketches with unfinished lyrics and tentative vocal tryouts are like keithsman/Riffie who never misses a chance to take a stab against Jagger with remarks like these:
"Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him."
I just say it as i see it and hear it, didn't realize having an opinion that differs with the majority was such a problem, i give Jagger plenty of credit, but i honestly have fallen out of love with his voice when its so high in the mix and what he seems to do with Stones albums production wise, he takes the beauty out of them, these tracks are brilliant, such potential in them.
The point i'm making now is a valid one, most of these songs are Keith's , i can't prove it but it's obvious.
These are excellent tracks, better than most of the stuff on ABB.
It wouldn't surprise me if Keith didn't instigate the release of these unfinished songs
Hey man don't take my views so seriously , Mick is a legend , a genius, the best front man that ever held a mic. Don't let my observations ruin your day.
Sorry i don't follow the herd man, what can i say.
Well, following the herd or not, the one thing I can't agree to is this underlying "if only Keith had his way, we could have had more great Stones albums, blame it all on Jagger"-theme.
Maybe I can't because other than you, I don't see any excellence or even greatness in these tracks. Maybe they could have been developed into something really good, maybe not, I just don't see it, "Cried Out Loud"/"Laugh I Nearly Died" notwithstanding. Even Keith developing "Trouble" out of "Just Because" - while "Trouble" is nice, I see no "Happy", "Little T & A" or at least "Wanna Hold You" here, just like while "Don't Stop", "Doom & Gloom" or "One More Shot" are just nice, they still are no "Start Me Up", "Brown Sugar", "Bitch" or whatever truly classic Stones tracks come in mind.
All in all, these tracks simply show where the Stones were creatively standing 1 1/2 decades ago, nothing more, nothing less, and I can see why Jagger doesn't want to spend weeks or months in the studio like in the old days anymore and prefers to bring more or less developed demos to the table instead. Nuff said.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-13 21:44 by retired_dog.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
TooTough
()
Date: April 13, 2018 21:44
Hearing this stuff I just can´t see a reason why they can´t or shouldn´t
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.
The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.
The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: April 13, 2018 21:53
Quote
TooTough
Hearing this stuff I just can´t see a reason why they can´t or shouldn´t
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.
The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.
I don't think that writing 12 nice tracks together over a couple of years is the problem. I think the burden to come up with 12 great tracks for what most likely will be their final album is somewhat too heavy for them.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
Captainchaos
()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:21
some great cuts on here. spanner in the works moment id have loved to hear some Taylor playing on some of this
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:46
Quote
keithsmanQuote
peoplewitheyes
Hey keithsman, your 'terrible vocals' comment is a little harsh. Clearly these are just run=throughs, with Jagger trying to get a handle on melody, phrasing etc. scatting his way around before the lyrics are set.
Maybe Mick grew bored of it after going round in cirles with his podner, while the latter tries to remember what the intro had been like...
Yeah a bit harsh but i'm beginning to wonder if Mick has this boring attitude towards Keith's songs in the studio.
It brings to mind Mick singing One More Shot live, he acted like he didn't want to bother with it so it gets dropped from the set. He stumbles through it like it was too awkward to get his chops round, looked like an armature.
Meanwhile he gave everything he had into Doom And Gloom.
And lets face it One More Shot is classic Stones
Eh, I could do without One More Shot.
Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by:
LeonidP
()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:49
Quote
retired_dogQuote
TooTough
Hearing this stuff I just can´t see a reason why they can´t or shouldn´t
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.
The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.
I don't think that writing 12 nice tracks together over a couple of years is the problem. I think the burden to come up with 12 great tracks for what most likely will be their final album is somewhat too heavy for them.
Neither of those are the issue, imo ... they just aren't motivated to do it, that's all.
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