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Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:49

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retired_dog
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TooTough
Hearing this stuff I just can´t see a reason why they can´t or shouldn´t
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.

The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.

I don't think that writing 12 nice tracks together over a couple of years is the problem. I think the burden to come up with 12 great tracks for what most likely will be their final album is somewhat too heavy for them.

Neither of those are the issue, imo ... they just aren't motivated to do it, that's all.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Munichhilton ()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:52

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DandelionPowderman
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Hairball
How can we be sure that Mick really had anything to do with the writing of the early Crosseyed Heart version...he's basically just humming along looking for a melody or whatever.
I've only listened to these leaks in full a couple of times, but maybe there's something amidst the banter before Because that indicates Mick adds something else?
Whatever the case, glad it was resurrected by Keith and Jordan, and properly recorded the way it eventually was.

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corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen

Could be an official leak?
To whet the appetites of diehards for the supposed forthcoming album?
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?

It was leaked in 2014..

Definitely a good year to take a leak!

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Munichhilton ()
Date: April 13, 2018 22:56

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LeonidP

Eh, I could do without One More Shot.

Really? It’s better than everything on Bigger Bang. Much more inventive...oh well, I’ll have yours...

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: April 13, 2018 23:03

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Munichhilton
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LeonidP

Eh, I could do without One More Shot.

Really? It’s better than everything on Bigger Bang. Much more inventive...oh well, I’ll have yours...

Not to me, I'll take most of ABB over that track, to me it is sort of a gimme shelter riff w/ not much vocal melody. I do love Gloom & Doom though.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Date: April 13, 2018 23:48

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Munichhilton
Quote
DandelionPowderman
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Hairball
How can we be sure that Mick really had anything to do with the writing of the early Crosseyed Heart version...he's basically just humming along looking for a melody or whatever.
I've only listened to these leaks in full a couple of times, but maybe there's something amidst the banter before Because that indicates Mick adds something else?
Whatever the case, glad it was resurrected by Keith and Jordan, and properly recorded the way it eventually was.

Quote
corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen

Could be an official leak?
To whet the appetites of diehards for the supposed forthcoming album?
To give the diehards something to chew on after 13+ years without a new album?
Maybe Keith (and/or Ronnie) leaked it to show what could have been 16 years ago?

It was leaked in 2014..

Definitely a good year to take a leak!

Yep, dry year..

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: 35love ()
Date: April 14, 2018 00:07

“So let's face it:
KEITH STOLE TROUBLE FROM THE ROLLING STONES”

*did you need these leaks to figure that out?
I knew the first time I heard the song/intro,
and my heart sank when Jagger’s voice didn’t come on.
Also, when they played it on the SHO ‘Billions’
and 4 notes/or so in, I said: Rolling Stones!
*pause, then, OMG it’s ‘Trouble’ from Keith.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 14, 2018 00:48

Here's another aspect of that scenario:
The Winos stole Keith Richards from the Rolling Stones!

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 14, 2018 00:54

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retired_dog
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keithsman
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retired_dog
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corriecas
I wonder what The Stones think/feel about this Leak of outtakes???
Jeroen

As an artist, I can't imagine that the Stones want rough song sketches like these leaking out to the public.

Because you always have people who obviously don't understand what rough song sketches with unfinished lyrics and tentative vocal tryouts are like keithsman/Riffie who never misses a chance to take a stab against Jagger with remarks like these:

"Mick absolutely ruined Just Before, ( Trouble ) terrible vocals, no wonder Keith took it with him, can't blame him."

I just say it as i see it and hear it, didn't realize having an opinion that differs with the majority was such a problem, i give Jagger plenty of credit, but i honestly have fallen out of love with his voice when its so high in the mix and what he seems to do with Stones albums production wise, he takes the beauty out of them, these tracks are brilliant, such potential in them.

The point i'm making now is a valid one, most of these songs are Keith's , i can't prove it but it's obvious.

These are excellent tracks, better than most of the stuff on ABB.
It wouldn't surprise me if Keith didn't instigate the release of these unfinished songs winking smiley

Hey man don't take my views so seriously , Mick is a legend , a genius, the best front man that ever held a mic. Don't let my observations ruin your day.winking smiley

Sorry i don't follow the herd man, what can i say.

Well, following the herd or not, the one thing I can't agree to is this underlying "if only Keith had his way, we could have had more great Stones albums, blame it all on Jagger"-theme.

Maybe I can't because other than you, I don't see any excellence or even greatness in these tracks. Maybe they could have been developed into something really good, maybe not, I just don't see it, "Cried Out Loud"/"Laugh I Nearly Died" notwithstanding. Even Keith developing "Trouble" out of "Just Because" - while "Trouble" is nice, I see no "Happy", "Little T & A" or at least "Wanna Hold You" here, just like while "Don't Stop", "Doom & Gloom" or "One More Shot" are just nice, they still are no "Start Me Up", "Brown Sugar", "Bitch" or whatever truly classic Stones tracks come in mind.

All in all, these tracks simply show where the Stones were creatively standing 1 1/2 decades ago, nothing more, nothing less, and I can see why Jagger doesn't want to spend weeks or months in the studio like in the old days anymore and prefers to bring more or less developed demos to the table instead. Nuff said.



Your so resolute about Jagger not wanting to spend weeks or months in the studio, if that was the case why agree to make a Stones album in the first place.

I agree with you that for some reason he is not wanting to work with Keith.

I can only surmise that they have had another one of their disagreements over what direction they want to go in with the album.

Just for the record i rate Crosseyed Heart as the best album since Tattoo You, better than any solo album from the Stones members, better than Keith's previous solo albums, more complete, better flowing and better vocals.
I appreciate that to some listeners its nothing more than a snooze fest but that's not how i hear it, Keith always talked about this thing called Rock & Roll growing up, well CH is the Stones music grown up, but with more Roll as opposed to Rock. Its not trying forcefully to be young or something its not. Its the sound of Keith still creating great music at a great old age and being honest with it. I'm not alone, the album sold well, it achieved Keith's best solo album chart positions and received rave reviews. Not bad for a 70+ year old who was seen as washed up at the time, people on here were saying things like he had dementia and brain damage etc, so the albums content came as a great surprise at the time and iorr fans donated over 200 pages sending its praise .

I think Micks contributions had they been combined with Keith's songs from CH would have made for a fantastic Stones album. But for some reason Mick just doesn't want to play ball with Keith.
History is repeating itself, its Micks loss. Nuff said.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Rip This ()
Date: April 14, 2018 00:57

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LeonidP
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keithsman
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peoplewitheyes
Hey keithsman, your 'terrible vocals' comment is a little harsh. Clearly these are just run=throughs, with Jagger trying to get a handle on melody, phrasing etc. scatting his way around before the lyrics are set.

Maybe Mick grew bored of it after going round in cirles with his podner, while the latter tries to remember what the intro had been like...

Yeah a bit harsh but i'm beginning to wonder if Mick has this boring attitude towards Keith's songs in the studio.

It brings to mind Mick singing One More Shot live, he acted like he didn't want to bother with it so it gets dropped from the set. He stumbles through it like it was too awkward to get his chops round, looked like an armature.
Meanwhile he gave everything he had into Doom And Gloom.

And lets face it One More Shot is classic Stones

Eh, I could do without One More Shot.

never mind Keithsman...he drives a very wide bus...back and forth...back and forth...back and forth..

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: April 14, 2018 01:02

It’s our loss. The ideas we hear in the 2002 recordings are a mixed bag but they sound like The Rolling Stones. I don’t mean they sound “Stonesy” in the sense of open G rockers, I mean that it sounds like the musicians I love to hear play together are playing together, including Mick Jagger. We haven’t heard that sound since, until Blue and Lonesome. The songs Mick brought into those 2002 sessions that he worked on with Matt Clifford and were released don’t have that sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 06:42 by TeddyB1018.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 14, 2018 01:06

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35love
“So let's face it:
KEITH STOLE TROUBLE FROM THE ROLLING STONES”

*did you need these leaks to figure that out?
I knew the first time I heard the song/intro,
and my heart sank when Jagger’s voice didn’t come on.
Also, when they played it on the SHO ‘Billions’
and 4 notes/or so in, I said: Rolling Stones!
*pause, then, OMG it’s ‘Trouble’ from Keith.

Goes to show how much Keith's sound is the Rolling Stones...and how can he steal something from himself?
Confused as to why you were surprised (heart sank?) that Mick wasn't on it the first time you heard the song/intro of Trouble when it was clearly put out as a Keith solo tune,
And if memory serves, you were one of the biggest cheerleaders of Crosseyed Heart...maybe you've now had a change of heart? Maybe Mick has swayed you in to becoming a Keith basher?...lol...

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LeonidP
Quote
retired_dog
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TooTough
Hearing this stuff I just can´t see a reason why they can´t or shouldn´t
be able to write 12 nice tracks together.

The melodies are there and the instruments sound right.

I don't think that writing 12 nice tracks together over a couple of years is the problem. I think the burden to come up with 12 great tracks for what most likely will be their final album is somewhat too heavy for them.

Neither of those are the issue, imo ... they just aren't motivated to do it, that's all.

Agreed. And good luck to anyone believing they can come up with anything that matches the caliber of their classic/greatest tunes this late in the game. Just by looking at the last 35 years of studio output, there's only a handful of songs that are pretty good, but nothing really that can stand up to their greatest. And by looking at their setlists, you get the feeling they feel the same way - more than 90% of the setlists are from pre-1982.
Miracles can happen though I suppose, and they might surprise everyone (including themselves) with one last blast of greatness...

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 14, 2018 01:09

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TeddyB1018
It’s our loss. The ideas we hear in the 2002 recordings are a mixed bag but they sound like The Rolling Stones. I don’t mean they sound “Stonesy” in the sense of open G rockers, I mean that it sounds like the musicians I love to hear play together are playing together, including Mick Jagger. We haven’t heard that sound since, until Blue and Lonesome. The songs Mick brought into the 2002 sessions that he worked on with Matt Clifford and we’re released don’t have that sound.

That's exactly what i felt today listening to these so called leaked tracks, that's the Stones sound that we are not getting from their albums anymore.
Yes it is our loss.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: 35love ()
Date: April 14, 2018 03:22

Oh Hairball, I will never, ever, be a ‘Keith basher’
Yes, I heart Crosseyed Heart, true true and true.
But I can be a little blue (heart sank)
when Mick doesn’t show...
the heart wants what it wants
(and ‘Trouble’ grew on me. Way cool on ‘Billions’ too)
Good weekend everyone-

ETA: Emily Dickson quote:
When the Best is gone (1) - I know that other things are not of consequence - The Heart wants what it wants - or else it does not care -



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 03:44 by 35love.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 14, 2018 05:28

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keithsman
Quote
TeddyB1018
It’s our loss. The ideas we hear in the 2002 recordings are a mixed bag but they sound like The Rolling Stones. I don’t mean they sound “Stonesy” in the sense of open G rockers, I mean that it sounds like the musicians I love to hear play together are playing together, including Mick Jagger. We haven’t heard that sound since, until Blue and Lonesome. The songs Mick brought into the 2002 sessions that he worked on with Matt Clifford and we’re released don’t have that sound.

That's exactly what i felt today listening to these so called leaked tracks, that's the Stones sound that we are not getting from their albums anymore.
Yes it is our loss.


Yes agreed with both of the above.
The natural sound of them all jamming as a proper band in an intimate setting is something to behold, unlike the Jagger/Clifford tunes which have a weird artificiality to them, and it's a shame and a loss that we don't experience that camaraderie of the band anymore unless they're doing old blues covers. Keith's Crosseyed Heart and his other solo material also have that same vibe - some may not like the songs themselves, but there's no denying he captured a great all around sound. I'm hoping (and have been hoping for years now) that some of that authentic/organic sound will make it's way on to the next Stones album of originals if there ever is one.

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Rip This ()
Date: April 14, 2018 15:25

...i find the LICKS Leaks compelling...listening to them again and again and liking them even more...spare but alive. Urgent, expressive...creative and able to create a mood of what it's like in that room when they are alone and relating with each other....how do these kinds of leaks happen in this day and age of non disclosure agreements, and security??.....perhaps they were leaked on purpose??....certainly the Glimmers care because these are good tracks that show them clearly succeeding in their craft..regardless if they are seeds for something better or even possible filler(?)....but I like what I am hearing A LOT!.....if these are throw away's...damn those vaults must be chock full of more good things...and i'm not buying that the material they have so far for the new record isn't good enough or anything about writers block....

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: MrEcho ()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:23

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Hairball
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keithsman
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TeddyB1018
It’s our loss. The ideas we hear in the 2002 recordings are a mixed bag but they sound like The Rolling Stones. I don’t mean they sound “Stonesy” in the sense of open G rockers, I mean that it sounds like the musicians I love to hear play together are playing together, including Mick Jagger. We haven’t heard that sound since, until Blue and Lonesome. The songs Mick brought into the 2002 sessions that he worked on with Matt Clifford and we’re released don’t have that sound.

That's exactly what i felt today listening to these so called leaked tracks, that's the Stones sound that we are not getting from their albums anymore.
Yes it is our loss.


Yes agreed with both of the above.
The natural sound of them all jamming as a proper band in an intimate setting is something to behold, unlike the Jagger/Clifford tunes which have a weird artificiality to them, and it's a shame and a loss that we don't experience that camaraderie of the band anymore unless they're doing old blues covers. Keith's Crosseyed Heart and his other solo material also have that same vibe - some may not like the songs themselves, but there's no denying he captured a great all around sound. I'm hoping (and have been hoping for years now) that some of that authentic/organic sound will make it's way on to the next Stones album of originals if there ever is one.

So, true. The leaked songs sound like the Rolling Stones, Jagger/Clifford demos with overdubs by the rest of the band do not sound like the Rolling Stones.

Who plays bass on the leaked songs? Don Was? Mick addresses him by name at one point.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:39

Just Before is awesome!

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:48

Wow. Because is Trouble almost EXACTLY!

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:51

So they did have a few good songs - way better than Keys To Your Love and Stealing My Heart. What a shame.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: April 14, 2018 17:57

The vocal sneer Mick has in U Don't Wanna is awesome. Cool tune. Why didn't they put that on FORTY LICKS!!!????

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Date: April 14, 2018 18:07

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GasLightStreet
Wow. Because is Trouble almost EXACTLY!

Just Before as well smiling smiley

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: georgelicks ()
Date: April 14, 2018 18:53

The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 14, 2018 20:00

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georgelicks
The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Yeah its called Keith's sound.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 20:02 by keithsman.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: corriecas ()
Date: April 14, 2018 20:12

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keithsman
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georgelicks
The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Yeah its called Keith's sound.

hot smileysmileys with beer>grinning smiley<
Jeroen

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 14, 2018 20:19

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corriecas
Quote
keithsman
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georgelicks
The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Yeah its called Keith's sound.

hot smileysmileys with beer>grinning smiley<
Jeroen

Haha yeah you git it thumbs upgrinning smileysmileys with beerhot smiley

That sound makes me so happy, its amazing, no one else comes close.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 14, 2018 20:53

Quote
georgelicks
The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Indeed, indeed.

"When I Call Your Name" is a cousin to such things us "Make No Mistake", "Almost Hear You Sigh" and "Hate It When You Leave". There is a nice foundation for a great latter-day ballad for the people with a mature taste...

Unfortunately Jagger doesn't sound too inspired. Yeah, it is a work in process for sure, him just trying different sounds and melody ideas, so no point to judge harshly. But still to my ears it ends up him just autopilot-like re-cicling his (then) current vocal cliches, tricks and manouvres (pretty clearly to be manifested in GODDESS and ALFIE albums). And none of them seem to work here. Anyway, if anything else, it is an educational showcase of Jagger's vocal technique of those days..

Instead of "Just Before/Beacuse" Keith should have 'stolen' this one for CROSSEYED HEART...grinning smiley Or picked this up this instead of "Losing My Touch" to be released in FORTY LICKS.. (though I always felt that the latter works surprisingly well in that context - as a final statement to end up the retrospective album).

- Doxa

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 14, 2018 21:05

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Doxa
Quote
georgelicks
The mood and vibe on these songs is awesome, so relaxed and warm, so much better than the sound on ABB.

The groove on When I Call Your Name is mesmerizing, great, so great.

Indeed, indeed.

"When I Call Your Name" is a cousin to such things us "Make No Mistake", "Almost Hear You Sigh" and "Hate It When You Leave". There is a nice foundation for a great latter-day ballad for the people with a mature taste...

Unfortunately Jagger doesn't sound too inspired. Yeah, it is a work in process for sure, him just trying different sounds and melody ideas, so no point to judge harshly. But still to my ears it ends up him just autopilot-like re-cicling his (then) current vocal cliches, tricks and manouvres (pretty clearly to be manifested in GODDESS and ALFIE albums). And none of them seem to work here. Anyway, if anything else, it is an educational showcase of Jagger's vocal technique of those days..

Instead of "Just Before/Beacuse" Keith should have 'stolen' this one for CROSSEYED HEART...grinning smiley Or picked this up this instead of "Losing My Touch" to be released in FORTY LICKS.. (though I always felt that the latter works surprisingly well in that context - as a final statement to end up the retrospective album).

- Doxa

Its not often we are in total agreement Doxa, but i think you just completely nailed it, Mick is not really interested in Keith's contributions.
It's what i have been trying to say but it comes across as Mick bashing or some kind of weird conspiracy, but listening to some of you guys you see it to.

My point is why, why would Mick reject keith's music and sound, is this what's holding up the new album.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 14, 2018 21:55

Quote
keithsman


My point is why, why would Mick reject keith's music and sound, is this what's holding up the new album.

Simply because if it is a question being inspired, one cannot force that (creativity, that is). If Keith's songs or riffs doesn't make Mick click, that is, he feels like there is no point in trying, knowing that he can't come up with anything worthwile with them, we have to live with it. I think that "When I Call Your Name" can be an indication of that. Jagger doesn't sound being very related to the atmosphere or sentiments of the song. I can pretty easily see Jagger soon going 'forget it. Doesn't work. The next one please'.

I don't see either Jagger doing very well with similar songs like "Make NO Mistake" and "Hate It When You Leave". Just not Jagger's cup of tea.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 22:02 by Doxa.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: April 14, 2018 22:40

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Doxa
Quote
keithsman


My point is why, why would Mick reject keith's music and sound, is this what's holding up the new album.

Simply because if it is a question being inspired, one cannot force that (creativity, that is). If Keith's songs or riffs doesn't make Mick click, that is, he feels like there is no point in trying, knowing that he can't come up with anything worthwile with them, we have to live with it. I think that "When I Call Your Name" can be an indication of that. Jagger doesn't sound being very related to the atmosphere or sentiments of the song. I can pretty easily see Jagger soon going 'forget it. Doesn't work. The next one please'.

I don't see either Jagger doing very well with similar songs like "Make NO Mistake" and "Hate It When You Leave". Just not Jagger's cup of tea.

- Doxa

I think that's the bottom line to the discussion(s) here. Instead of singling out any individuals like Jagger for the less than satisfactory creative situation of our beloved band like Keith's fans tend to do, as a musician myself I understand there's simply noone to blame because it is how it is, YOU CAN'T FORCE CREATIVITY, it "clicks" or it doesn't. I don't believe that Jagger intenionally "stonewalls" any song ideas Keith brings to the table or simply tries not hard enough. The leaked tracks show that he at least gives 'em a try, but struggles to find an interesting angle for a vocals melody that turns a nice groove or chord sequence into "gold" - a great Stones track, without sounding like a pale copy of anything the band already did in their past.

When it "clicks", it "clicks", when it doesn't, it simply doesn't, it's a pity for all us Stones fans, but it is what it is, you simply can't blame anybody because not "clicking" in creative terms obviously works both ways nowadays as it seems that Mick's ideas obviously don't create much enthusiasm on Keith's side either.

Maybe this band is simply around for much too long. "After all is said and done" ... what's left to say and do?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-14 22:46 by retired_dog.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 14, 2018 23:07

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keithsman
I think Micks contributions had they been combined with Keith's songs from CH would have made for a fantastic Stones album.

Pretty much the same holds for Talk Is Cheap, which back then was seen by many as the best album the Stones never recorded. With a dose of Mick it could have been a fantastic 80s Stones album.

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