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Re: Licks Leak - New Album 2018
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 20, 2018 01:54

Quote
doitywoik
Quote
keithsman
But considering Micks apparent writers block its very possible the band will be looking at using unfinished songs from previous sessions for the new album.

Well some of us regard a lot of these leaked tunes (that are Keith's raw side of the songs without Mick's needed input) as better than the songs that reach us through relatively recent Stones albums. Its as if something gets lost in the production process. Also the fact that Mick is unable to add much to these tunes shows that writers block has been effecting Mick for a while now.
Maybe writers block is the wrong thing to say, bloody mindedness with helping along keiths sketches would sum it up more aptly.

Writer’s block seems a bit overdone, I’d say, we just heard about Mick having written a ton of new songs.
Also, how do we know all those leaked songs are Keith’s only, without any Mick input?

OK, it’s clear that proto-Trouble is Keith’s, and that the two released tunes are most probably Mick’s, but the rest? Because the lyrics aren’t finished and Mick would never bring something to a session that is not yet complete and final? There are possibly more-specialized and better-informed people here, I at least often couldn’t tell for particular songs whether they are Mick’s or Keith’s or a genuinely collaborative efforts. (OK, When I Call Your Name does sound pretty Keith-ish to me.) How do we know there isn’t already some input from Mick present in these tracks?
We don’t know if the unreleased tracks are the only attempts at and/or recordings of these songs. We don’t know if there are more embryonic, less complete versions (like, verse but no chorus, etc.), and we don’t know if there are perhaps also more fully developed versions. These are complete songs structurally-musically but still in a draft state, after all. There’s room for many things to be speculated about.

Good, good points. For argument's sake I took as a given that most of the tracks are "Keith's sketches" as my friend and respected opponent Riffie (Keithsman) takes for granted (I guess the process of confirmation goes: 'Hmm that sounds good - thereby, it must be Keith's').

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 01:54 by Doxa.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 20, 2018 02:14

This goes OT, but as far as 'writer's block' go, I am more worried about Mr. Dylan in this sense than I do of Mick or/and Keith (with the latter two, I don't worry at all - there are released stuff as there are talks about 40 demos and dynamite riffs, and they actually are in the process of making an album). It's been years since Bob's latest album of originals, and I haven't heard anything indicating him writing new material (though he's not the one 'leaking' these or any kind of things). And here we are talking the loss of even bigger magnitude than that of losing Mick and Keith's ability to craft songs (my opinion, of course). I hope though that his long and deep research on American Song Book and re-training his voice and interpretation skills might result some day as something novel and original. His original 'voice' is still needed, me thinks.

Sorry OT.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 02:22 by Doxa.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 20, 2018 04:39

Dylan's last album of originals Tempest was released less than six years ago which in todays world is really not that long of a period. Prior to that, Together Through Life (2009) and Modern Times (2006) - both albums of originals. Within this time frame he's also released four cover albums - three of them since 2015 (one being a triple album) and a Christmas covers album (2009). On top of all that, he's been touring nearly constantly nonstop around the world, and considering he's 76 years old, seems to be quite a busy man. Could he have writers block? Maybe, but I wouldn't waste time worrying about him as he probably has dozens (maybe even hundreds) of finished original songs written and/or recorded over the years that he could release at a moments notice if he chose to. In contrast, the Stones as a band have released two original songs and one covers album since 2005 (over 13 years ago), and as of late have been going out on mini-tours consisting of 14 shows at the max give or take. They've also been working on a new album for over two years now, and while I don't think either have writers block on their own, somethings been preventing them from working together - creative differences would be the obvious guess. Mick could write and record a million demos, and Keith could come up with a thousand "dynamite riffs", but if they're never finished and released, do they really even exist? Probably not as far as the public is concerned. So some day (and with a lot of luck), maybe they'll get around to finishing it if and when they can figure out how to work together and put their differences aside. But the lack of an original album in 13+ years is pretty much unheard of from bands that like to think of themselves as a working band.

And then there's Neil Young - over 10 albums of originals since 2005, writing books, making movies, unleashing the archives, touring solo and with various bands, Bridge School, on and on and on..............

From a recent interview:

Q: It’s pretty remarkable how prolific you are. You’ve steadily churned out albums at a pace unmatched by most artists. What’s kept that fire burning?

Neil: Well, that’s what I do. I’m an artist. That’s how I like to be spending my time.

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 04:42 by Hairball.

Re: Licks Leak - New Album 2018
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 20, 2018 04:49

Quote
Doxa
I guess the process of confirmation goes: 'Hmm that sounds good - thereby, it must be Keith's'

Sound scientific methodology! grinning smiley

But seriously, and really not intending to offend anyone, sometimes I do wönder where the knowledge of original authorship comes from. It's clear (more or less) in cases where Keith says (in interviews or his book) a song is originally his or Mick's, or it came out of a jam. When we have Keith's demos (like his acoustic demos for Steel Wheels) it's also evident they are his songs. Ronnie has outed himself as the author of a few songs, or he get credits or is filed under "inspiration by" (does this mean no royalties?), and it became finally acknowledged that Marianne had a hand in Sister Morphine. I'm aware only of few statements of Mick's where he mentions authership of a song, as in the case of Don't Stop. I don't know, does he talk about that less often or do I just happen to stumble more often on Keith interviews than interviews with Mick?

Otherwise, I'm rather careful with my judgements. I had never guessed that it was Mick who wrote Brown Sugar and not Keith.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 20, 2018 05:06

Dylan:
Hairball already said it all. The American Songbook songs are not exactly my type of songs but he made them completely his own with his band, you wouldn't hear such songs played in this way otherwise. And I was surprised how well he sings them.

I'm also waiting for the vol. 2 of his Chronicles. I just hope the Nobel prize didn't get in the way. Would certainly be advertised as "the new book by Nobel laureate BD".

Neil is perhaps the exact opposite of the Stones, puts out everything at once, gives a damn on perfection. Sometimes a bit more work on the songs wouldn't hurt, thoufh ...

Re: Licks Leak - New Album 2018
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 09:18

Quote
Doxa
Quote
keithsman
Quote
Doxa
Quote
keithsman



But considering Micks apparent writers block its very possible the band will be looking at using unfinished songs from previous sessions for the new album.

Not that this talk of Jagger's writer's block is apparent Keith fan boy fantasy, it also has a bad contradiction in it: it is actually Jagger's creative output that it is missing from those unfinished songs a'la Licks leaks' here (like the stuff he did with EXILE bonus tracks). So for Mick the things wouldn't be any easier if they would start from the scratch or from old unfinished songs.

- Doxa

Well some of us regard a lot of these leaked tunes (that are Keith's raw side of the songs without Mick's needed input) as better than the songs that reach us through relatively recent Stones albums. Its as if something gets lost in the production process. Also the fact that Mick is unable to add much to these tunes shows that writers block has been effecting Mick for a while now.
Maybe writers block is the wrong thing to say, bloody mindedness with helping along keiths sketches would sum it up more aptly.

That "some of us regard a lot of these leaked tunes as better than the songs that reach us through relatively recent Stones albums" tells only that "some of us" like these out-takes better than the released tracks. Nothing else. I, for example, like this proto version of "Trouble" more than I like the final relaese, but does my opinion based on my personal taste now entail that Keith must have had a writer's block because he 'screwed up' the potentiality there? See the analogy here?

I don't live a world in where there is a "fact" that Mick is "unable" to add to these Licks leaks. I don't have an access into that alternative universe. Probably he never did anything more to them more than we can hear there, but that of being "unable" to do more than that is pure speculation. But after these sessions, he actually finished up a thing like "Plundered My Soul". That's a fact. That Jagger doesn't seem to be much inspired finishing up "Keith's sketches", but instead does 40 demos by his own (or with his trusted man of nowadays), doesn't say anything of 'writer's block' but that of him finding inspiration from somewhere else than from Keith's sketches. Most likely his inspiration and drive for creativity doesn't stem from a duty making some devoteed Keith Richards hardcore fans happy. Yeah, isn't he nasty? But those artists tend to be egoistic bastards as far as their muses go.

It could be very well that Mick - with "some of us" - might not see the brilliance in those Richardsian song sketches as other bunch of "some of us" seem to do. Be the reason whatever, creativity cannot be forced, as it is argued in this thread.

Generally, one might not like the outcome of Jagger's recent products - say of "Plundered My Soul" and other EXILE and SOME GIRLS extras, SuperHeavy stuff, "Presidential Election Blues", "Doom & Gloom", "Drive of Shame" or "Gotta Get A Grip"/"England Lost" - but claiming that is a sign of 'writer's block' is as 'reasonable' as is to claim that Keith have had a writer's block since "Gimme Shelter" since he hasn't come up anything even remotively brilliant close to it. Surely the creative downhill in quality (as in quantity as well) has happened to both Mick and Keith from their glory days, but that of talking about some 'writer's block' is too far-reaching.

- Doxa, a member of "some of us"

Lol that was funny, lovely bit of fiction there Doxa, turning black into white as usual, some of us buy it, others don't even when edited 10 times.

"Creativity" can't be forced ?, you mean creativity comes in the form of working with the great Matt Clifford and not with Micks uninspiring old mate Keith. Pure fiction my friend winking smiley

Re: Licks Leak - New Album 2018
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 09:47

Quote
doitywoik
Quote
Doxa
I guess the process of confirmation goes: 'Hmm that sounds good - thereby, it must be Keith's'

Sound scientific methodology! grinning smiley

But seriously, and really not intending to offend anyone, sometimes I do wönder where the knowledge of original authorship comes from. It's clear (more or less) in cases where Keith says (in interviews or his book) a song is originally his or Mick's, or it came out of a jam. When we have Keith's demos (like his acoustic demos for Steel Wheels) it's also evident they are his songs. Ronnie has outed himself as the author of a few songs, or he get credits or is filed under "inspiration by" (does this mean no royalties?), and it became finally acknowledged that Marianne had a hand in Sister Morphine. I'm aware only of few statements of Mick's where he mentions authership of a song, as in the case of Don't Stop. I don't know, does he talk about that less often or do I just happen to stumble more often on Keith interviews than interviews with Mick?

Otherwise, I'm rather careful with my judgements. I had never guessed that it was Mick who wrote Brown Sugar and not Keith.

I think we can only surmise or guess who wrote what part of a song, lyrics , music etc when Mick or Keith haven't laid claim to a particular song. But as you rightly say we have evidence in some signatures like Keith's acoustic demos etc, we also have an ear now for what was probably written by who because Mick and Keith have distinct sounds and preferences to styles.
I can't really even give all the credit to Brown Sugar to Mick, yes he wrote it but like with a lot of songs he writes, without Keith's sprinkling of fairy dust on them and adding his distinctive guitar sound to them, Micks songs end up sounding something like tracks from Shes The Boss. Brown Sugar might have sounded like Lets Work winking smiley Without Keith, Mick becomes an average song writer at best, his solo career proves that. Very uninspiring other than the odd gem like Memo From Turner or Hard Woman and these tracks are very old now, what has he come up with in the last 23 years since 93' with Wandering Spirit that is as inspiring as Crosseyed Heart.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Date: April 20, 2018 09:52

It is time that they don't invest (both Mick and Keith). I'm sure there's nothing wrong with their creativity.

They used to write on the train. In hotel rooms. Nowadays, I can't see Mick writing in his personal gym, nor Keith in Camp Xray...

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 10:03

Quote
DandelionPowderman
It is time that they don't invest (both Mick and Keith). I'm sure there's nothing wrong with their creativity.

They used to write on the train. In hotel rooms. Nowadays, I can't see Mick writing in his personal gym, nor Keith in Camp Xray...

Could you elaborate on that please DP.

Don't invest ? Do you mean Mick can't be bothered to take the time to write winking smiley

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Date: April 20, 2018 10:29

Quote
keithsman
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It is time that they don't invest (both Mick and Keith). I'm sure there's nothing wrong with their creativity.

They used to write on the train. In hotel rooms. Nowadays, I can't see Mick writing in his personal gym, nor Keith in Camp Xray...

Could you elaborate on that please DP.

Don't invest ? Do you mean Mick can't be bothered to take the time to write winking smiley

I mean this is the general problem with this band. When they are about to tour, they are only rehearsing for two weeks. That means that the setlists won't change much.

When they are in the studio it's not for months. Rather for days.

Writing and developing (in particular) takes time. They are not willing to take the necessary time to come up with great stuff.

I hope I'm wrong here, but a day there, and a few hours there, won't make another Exile. It takes hard, long-term work in the studio to shape the songs the way they used to.

When they started to develop musically – in the mid-60s, they also began spending more time in the studio.

The billionaires in the Stones are too comfortable nowadays. They don't have to do anything. The hunger is gone, it seems. That goes for both of the group's songwriters.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 20, 2018 10:41

Hmm... nice to hear that some peope aren't as worried about Zimmy as I am, but I do smell a bit double standards there in justifying Dylan's doings against the Stones ones. That he constantly he as a dance and a song man tours (and of course his concerts are artistic statements in the sense The Stones ones never are) and his way to interpret Sinatra stuff is idiosyncratic and rich, and he has probably hundreds of songs in the can to be released probably anyday in the BOOTLEG SERIES - all of those facs doesn't change the fact that it's been almost six years since TEMPEST - which might not be a long time in today's record releasing business, but - which marks me more - is that in regards to Dylan's own career (and, as pointed out, in regards to Neil Young). Dylan, as far as I know, is not one of those people developing ideas for years or picking up some songs he's written in the past, and then finishing them up later, but instead does his songs in the spirit of the moment from a scratch to completion, and then records them quickly, and that's it. 12 of them picked up, and you have a new album out. He relaeses stuff when he actually has something to 'say'. Doen't really change much from Young's routines.

But unlike Riffie's talk about Jagger my worry about Bob's silence in originals front is not trying to bash or badname him but a sign of real concern: for some reason Dylan doesn't have had anything original to 'say' for some years. Reading the mentioned CHRONICLES gives a good self-description and reminder what a reflective, sensitive and fragile artist this man really is - the description of his 80's struggles in creativity is one of the most revealing ones an artist of his caliber ever confessed; he takes his creativity very seriously, and doesn't take anything for granted. There needs to be a real 'muse' in order to make things happen. Now the muse is there on live shows and Sinatra stuff. The latter-day career brilliance in creativity that started with TIME OUT OF MIND is seemingly ended with TEMPESS (a wonderful series of albums) and replaced by this AMERICAN SONG BOOK program. Though the latter is a great and significiant 'phase' in Dylan's long career by its own rights, I personally wish - like I mentioned earlier - that it helps Dylan to re-discover his original voice with some new and fresh points again (a bit like I think those two folk cover albums did in the 90's in order open the path for TIME OUT OF MIND). But one cannot force creativity, indeed.

CHRONICLES Pt. II would be wonderful too, but still I consider Dylan essentially and foremost as a songwriter. I hope the all the hassle and hype about Nobel Prize doesn't effect on him negatively: 'ouch, now I actually need to write something brilliant, since I'm a Nobel Prize winner and all that shit.. Oh no, I can't do this shit' - or, more Dylan-like response: 'okay, from now on, I won't write anything original again but do covers for the rest of my life. There you have it haha...'

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 10:53 by Doxa.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 20, 2018 12:27

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
keithsman
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It is time that they don't invest (both Mick and Keith). I'm sure there's nothing wrong with their creativity.

They used to write on the train. In hotel rooms. Nowadays, I can't see Mick writing in his personal gym, nor Keith in Camp Xray...

Could you elaborate on that please DP.

Don't invest ? Do you mean Mick can't be bothered to take the time to write winking smiley

I mean this is the general problem with this band. When they are about to tour, they are only rehearsing for two weeks. That means that the setlists won't change much.

When they are in the studio it's not for months. Rather for days.

Writing and developing (in particular) takes time. They are not willing to take the necessary time to come up with great stuff.

I hope I'm wrong here, but a day there, and a few hours there, won't make another Exile. It takes hard, long-term work in the studio to shape the songs the way they used to.

When they started to develop musically – in the mid-60s, they also began spending more time in the studio.

The billionaires in the Stones are too comfortable nowadays. They don't have to do anything. The hunger is gone, it seems. That goes for both of the group's songwriters.

Summed up well, and if there's anything to be worried about, this would be it.

And as far as creativity as a whole vs. the efficiency of writing tunes (or lack thereof), the Stones certainly talk the talk and give off signals that they're still a properly functioning and prolific band - and it's easy to fall for that mumbo jumbo - but the timeline tells a different story. The reality is all that they've put out is a blues covers album in 2016, two original songs in 2012, and a full album of originals over 13 years ago in 2005. But in defense of these old timers, what should be expected from people their age who have worked so hard for the lavish lifestyle they live? Like Dylan, maybe some of us expect too much? They're established icons who have already given quite a bit in their lifetime, so can't really fault them for being less productive than they once might have been. That said, with all the buildup from the Stones themselves the last two years ("40 demos", "dynamite riffs", "working on it", ""sounds good", etc.) can't help but to get swept up with the hoopla even if it's like hearing broken record. Still waiting and hoping for the next original album, and even if it will probably be mediocre, there's always a chance (and a hope) it could be great. As for Dylan, like Neil Young he doesn't talk about writing and recording an album for years on end misleading his fans - he simply releases it and then moves on to another chapter.

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: Licks Leak - New Album 2018
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: April 20, 2018 12:54

Quote
Doxa
Quote
doitywoik
Quote
keithsman
But considering Micks apparent writers block its very possible the band will be looking at using unfinished songs from previous sessions for the new album.

Well some of us regard a lot of these leaked tunes (that are Keith's raw side of the songs without Mick's needed input) as better than the songs that reach us through relatively recent Stones albums. Its as if something gets lost in the production process. Also the fact that Mick is unable to add much to these tunes shows that writers block has been effecting Mick for a while now.
Maybe writers block is the wrong thing to say, bloody mindedness with helping along keiths sketches would sum it up more aptly.

Writer’s block seems a bit overdone, I’d say, we just heard about Mick having written a ton of new songs.
Also, how do we know all those leaked songs are Keith’s only, without any Mick input?

OK, it’s clear that proto-Trouble is Keith’s, and that the two released tunes are most probably Mick’s, but the rest? Because the lyrics aren’t finished and Mick would never bring something to a session that is not yet complete and final? There are possibly more-specialized and better-informed people here, I at least often couldn’t tell for particular songs whether they are Mick’s or Keith’s or a genuinely collaborative efforts. (OK, When I Call Your Name does sound pretty Keith-ish to me.) How do we know there isn’t already some input from Mick present in these tracks?
We don’t know if the unreleased tracks are the only attempts at and/or recordings of these songs. We don’t know if there are more embryonic, less complete versions (like, verse but no chorus, etc.), and we don’t know if there are perhaps also more fully developed versions. These are complete songs structurally-musically but still in a draft state, after all. There’s room for many things to be speculated about.

Good, good points. For argument's sake I took as a given that most of the tracks are "Keith's sketches" as my friend and respected opponent Riffie (Keithsman) takes for granted (I guess the process of confirmation goes: 'Hmm that sounds good - thereby, it must be Keith's').

- Doxa


Excellent observation/analysis Doxa! But it also works both ways: "It sounds like Keith, so it must be good! It could be even better, but Mick does not contribute much..shame on him!

But the question at stake is if it's really that good to start with - once the novelty factor wears off.

I mean, just compare this stuff to the Steel Wheel roughs and monitor mixes. They're just 13 years apart (1989 and 2002). I think the decline in songwriting quality is pretty obvious. And now we're 16 years ahead since 2002... I for one can fully understand that Mick is not too keen to spend his time for another lacklustre re-write of the "classic Stones sound" a la "Rough Justice" which is a re-write of ... which itself may have been a re-write of.. (you name 'em), leading to results that could not hold a candle compared to their best stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 12:55 by retired_dog.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 20, 2018 13:02

Getta Grip/England Lost were failures by most standards, and it's totally understandable why Keith wanted nothing to do with them.
If those were the best of Micks 40 demos, not a good situation no matter how you look at it.

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 13:26

Quote
Hairball
[b]Getta Grip/England Lost were failures by most standards, and it's totally understandable why Keith wanted nothing to do with them.
If those were the best of Micks 40 demos, not a good situation no matter how you look at it.
[[/b]/b]

Finally someone other than me saying it as it clearly is , why is it so hard for some Mick diehards to accept that.

I mean defending Mick no matter what and saying he is still a creative genius is just fighting a loosing battle, even Doxa bless him, the ultimate iorr spin doctor fails to convince us no matter how prolific his novels and flights of fancy are. winking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 13:56 by keithsman.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 13:27

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
keithsman
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It is time that they don't invest (both Mick and Keith). I'm sure there's nothing wrong with their creativity.

They used to write on the train. In hotel rooms. Nowadays, I can't see Mick writing in his personal gym, nor Keith in Camp Xray...

Could you elaborate on that please DP.

Don't invest ? Do you mean Mick can't be bothered to take the time to write winking smiley

I mean this is the general problem with this band. When they are about to tour, they are only rehearsing for two weeks. That means that the setlists won't change much.

When they are in the studio it's not for months. Rather for days.

Writing and developing (in particular) takes time. They are not willing to take the necessary time to come up with great stuff.

I hope I'm wrong here, but a day there, and a few hours there, won't make another Exile. It takes hard, long-term work in the studio to shape the songs the way they used to.

When they started to develop musically – in the mid-60s, they also began spending more time in the studio.

The billionaires in the Stones are too comfortable nowadays. They don't have to do anything. The hunger is gone, it seems. That goes for both of the group's songwriters.

Thanks for explaining that DP and of course you are absolutely right.

I think if i were Keith Richards with his God given talent i would have to write album after album even if they only broke even financially.

There are only so many days i could spend at the beach, and certainly family is lovely but really who wants to spend all their time with them.

I feel disappointed that we haven't had more from Mick and Keith since Undercover. In the 35 years since Undercover we have received 5 studio albums of originals, an average of one uninspired album every six years, the boys have been running on reputation and BS for so long now its becoming laughable.
But as i say, surely they get fed up with playing the same songs and counting their money. Apparently not. winking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 14:06 by keithsman.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: April 20, 2018 15:56

Quote
keithsman
Quote
Hairball
[b]Getta Grip/England Lost were failures by most standards, and it's totally understandable why Keith wanted nothing to do with them.
If those were the best of Micks 40 demos, not a good situation no matter how you look at it.
[[/b]/b]

Finally someone other than me saying it as it clearly is , why is it so hard for some Mick diehards to accept that.

I mean defending Mick no matter what and saying he is still a creative genius is just fighting a loosing battle, even Doxa bless him, the ultimate iorr spin doctor fails to convince us no matter how prolific his novels and flights of fancy are. winking smiley

The problem is that you and Hairball usually turn it into a Keith vs. Mick thing and that's not what I have said. Is it so difficult to understand a situation where the main problem seems to be that Keith doesn't get a kick out of Mick's material and at the same time Mick doesn't get a kick out of Keith's material? Add to that the "hunger is gone" theme brought up by Mr. Powderman and his final remark "That goes for both of the group's songwriters" and it becomes clear that there's not a single person who could be blamed for this situation, or if you desperately want to, then both.

It's nearly 30 years since Steel Wheels, since then we only got 3 albums of all-new material, and that fact alone is telling enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 16:10 by retired_dog.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: April 20, 2018 16:03

---



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 16:12 by retired_dog.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 18:17

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
keithsman
Quote
Hairball
[b]Getta Grip/England Lost were failures by most standards, and it's totally understandable why Keith wanted nothing to do with them.
If those were the best of Micks 40 demos, not a good situation no matter how you look at it.
[[/b]/b]

Finally someone other than me saying it as it clearly is , why is it so hard for some Mick diehards to accept that.

I mean defending Mick no matter what and saying he is still a creative genius is just fighting a loosing battle, even Doxa bless him, the ultimate iorr spin doctor fails to convince us no matter how prolific his novels and flights of fancy are. winking smiley

The problem is that you and Hairball usually turn it into a Keith vs. Mick thing and that's not what I have said. Is it so difficult to understand a situation where the main problem seems to be that Keith doesn't get a kick out of Mick's material and at the same time Mick doesn't get a kick out of Keith's material? Add to that the "hunger is gone" theme brought up by Mr. Powderman and his final remark "That goes for both of the group's songwriters" and it becomes clear that there's not a single person who could be blamed for this situation, or if you desperately want to, then both.

It's nearly 30 years since Steel Wheels, since then we only got 3 albums of all-new material, and that fact alone is telling enough.

Well put it this way we are only disappointed that the band we love that gave us so much has been a bit of a let down since Undercover.
You sound like you are agreeing with us winking smiley

I'm not interested in being in Mick or Keith's camp, but i would love it if Mick and Keith just forgot their differences for two months and just wrote the masterpiece we've all been waiting for. It sounds like we as fans are together in this wish, we all still think they have it in them if they work TOGETHER for long enough.

A while ago now i said something that no one picked up on at the time of Crosseyed Heart's release, i said that this album is so surprisingly good that Mick's ego is going to find it hard to come to terms with it. I think this is what's causing the block. But you have to really know Mick the human being to understand what i just said. Mick was top dog before CH, he wrote most the good material that got to make it on the last few studio albums of originals, Mick had taken over as the main songwriting force, i think CH just blew him away.

This is not a Mick or Keith camp thing coming from us the fans, this is coming from Mick and Keith the men. They are in competition with each other, have been since 1970. Everything with those two is a battle, a battle Keith gave into over time, but what we all forgot was that Keith's creative spark was still there, is was hidden beneath the booze and the drugs that no longer worked for him creatively, it was hidden under his lack of will to constantly battle with Mick for his part in the what it is to be 50 % of all things Rolling Stones, be it picking the songs they play live or musical input. Keith was prepared to play second fiddle to Mick for a quiet life. But when he started getting sober and slowly started making CH he showed us that he still had it, i probably showed himself he still had it. I don't actually think Keith thought it was as good as it was, he was in no rush to release it and had no intention of playing any shows to showcase it. I still think the best is still to come from this band, but those two alpha males need to sit down and have a good heart to heart before this stale mate of ego's gets released. Hey who knows behind closed doors it may have happened a few weeks ago when Keith said they made 12 amazing creations that didn't exist before he and Mick sat down together winking smiley

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: nick ()
Date: April 20, 2018 18:36

Hairball, I like your posts and I did shred Mick a few days ago. BUT Keith is very laid back in this area of what music gets released. The only thing he knows how to do is give a thumbs down and then make a comment that you turn into your "signature". Yes those 2 Mick songs sucked but Keith does not push any stuff for release at all. What I can't understand is why Keith and Ronnie and Charlie don't get pissed off that they have put in all these f'ing hours in a studio all these years just to have Mick say no to a release. Why go into a studio at all. Why make the music at all. If you think about it, they just waste their time making new music.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 20, 2018 20:01

Quote
nick
Hairball, I like your posts and I did shred Mick a few days ago. BUT Keith is very laid back in this area of what music gets released. The only thing he knows how to do is give a thumbs down and then make a comment that you turn into your "signature". Yes those 2 Mick songs sucked but Keith does not push any stuff for release at all. What I can't understand is why Keith and Ronnie and Charlie don't get pissed off that they have put in all these f'ing hours in a studio all these years just to have Mick say no to a release. Why go into a studio at all. Why make the music at all. If you think about it, they just waste their time making new music.

See this is what i'm getting at, Mick is a control freak, Keith said it himself, i bet there are so many good songs out there unfinished that Keith Charlie and Ronnie have worked on.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keith didn't have something to do with these leaks bless him.

Even if Keith used all this material for a solo album and put Mick on the credits at least we would all get to hear it. This could possibly explain why Keith had such good material for CH. He might well have used half a dozen of these unfinished tracks for that album, we know Trouble came from those 2002 sessions, but how many hundreds of potentially great songs from God knows how many other session are out there somewhere, possibly from when the Stones were at their peak creatively. Hundreds of unfinished gems just sitting in a cassette somewhere. Meanwhile we wait over 13 years for so called new material, madness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 20:03 by keithsman.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: April 20, 2018 21:08

Quote
nick
Hairball, I like your posts and I did shred Mick a few days ago. BUT Keith is very laid back in this area of what music gets released. The only thing he knows how to do is give a thumbs down and then make a comment that you turn into your "signature". Yes those 2 Mick songs sucked but Keith does not push any stuff for release at all. What I can't understand is why Keith and Ronnie and Charlie don't get pissed off that they have put in all these f'ing hours in a studio all these years just to have Mick say no to a release. Why go into a studio at all. Why make the music at all. If you think about it, they just waste their time making new music.


Nice post Nick, but I'm not sure what you're referring to when mentioning my signature. Maybe the recent quote from Keith where he said to Mick "this isn't Stones material, release it on your own if you want" (paraphrase).
If so, that's not me as my signature has and probably always will be a line from the Stones tune What to Do - a great old tune I might add!

"Nothin' to do, nowhere to go.
You're talkin' to people that you don't know".


As for your post, in regards to wasting time and the various members being pissed off, if you calculate and condense how much time they've actually spent in a studio working as band, not sure of the exact number, but maybe a solid week (or two) at most spread out over a two year period or longer. Other than that Keith works alone sporadically, and same for Mick. Ronnie paints setlists and plays with his twins, while Charlie has his horses to tend to. That said, Charlie has no clue about the status of the album that he put some hours into, and he seemed a bit confused and/or pissed off in that recent interview when he asked "and where is that new album"? All I can say to that is good question Charlie, we all would like to know!

Quote
keithsman
i would love it if Mick and Keith just forgot their differences for two months and just wrote the masterpiece we've all been waiting for. It sounds like we as fans are together in this wish, we all still think they have it in them if they work TOGETHER for long enough.

thumbs up

A "masterpiece" might be expecting a bit much, but there's still hope they will release a new album!

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 21:11 by Hairball.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: April 20, 2018 21:51

Quote
keithsman



I mean defending Mick no matter what and saying he is still a creative genius is just fighting a loosing battle, even Doxa bless him, the ultimate iorr spin doctor fails to convince us no matter how prolific his novels and flights of fancy are. winking smiley

What? I am defending Jagger as some sort of 'creative genius' because I don't agree that he is having a writer's block? And I fail to 'convince' you and supposed others - if there are any (I hope not) - who belong to this phenomenon I can only see as a cult. The ability to convert some True Believers back to rational secularism doesn't belong to my discoursive arsenal or interest. Why I bother? Because this is a public forum, some issues are interesting, and there probably are people who might find my points interesting or even trying to understand what I try to say.

But this constant, tiresome reducing everything into biased Mick vs. Keith confrontation - I guess it serves someone's agenda, or gives some significance to one's fanhood, but I find it simply childish. I guess anyone can prefer whatever or whoever, but constant trolling with that - be the issue whatever - is just... aargh...sad smiley

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-20 21:55 by Doxa.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 20, 2018 21:54

Quote
Doxa
Hmm... nice to hear that some peope aren't as worried about Zimmy as I am

Of course I have as little a clue as anybody else (wich might mean everyone but Bob himself) if or when a new album of originals will find its way to the rest of the world but I am indeed less concerned here. Bob is not under the same (largely self-imposed?) pressure as the Stones regarding delivering a particular type of product, he can deliver whatever he wants, and sales figures don't seem to play much of a role. He has a decades-old reputation of being unpredictable so he can virtually do whatever he likes. Based on nothing but intuition I think he's not done as a songwriter yet and the next album of originals is just a matter of time.
Also, that he doesn't put out new stuff doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't write any. Just think of all the formerly unreleased stuff to be found in the Bootleg Series. Hopefully the prize doesn't get in the way. But I'm no dylanologist so I don't know if there is better information to be gotten from (recent) interviews with him or his band members (if there are any).

Quote
Doxa
He relaeses stuff when he actually has something to 'say'. Doen't really change much from Young's routines.

Neil Young seems to be even more spontaneous in this respect than Bob. Kind of, write a song, don't think about it twice, call up a few people to record it (or just put it down with an acoustic), do one take and release it once you've got enough tracks for an album. To describe Neil's more recent output as unbalanced would be quite fair (minimally). Also, I'll never understand how a song like "Interstate" could end up on the flip side of a single instead of an album.
But also Neil appears to have gone through his creative crises. I remember an interview in which he said he gave up on booze, weed and cigarettes and he doesn't know if he could carry on as a songwriter under these conditions (although he seems to have returned to Neil's Homegrown...).
Neil’s advantage is he only has to come to grips with himself whereas the Stones (or, mostly, Mick and Keith) have to come to grips with each other.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I mean this is the general problem with this band. When they are about to tour, they are only rehearsing for two weeks. That means that the setlists won't change much.

It also means there might be the same kind of ragged playing by a certain part of the band as could be experienced in No Filter Pt. I ... But we will see.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
When they are in the studio it's not for months. Rather for days.

Writing and developing (in particular) takes time. They are not willing to take the necessary time to come up with great stuff.

You've certainly got a point here. Although we don't really know how much time they actually spent in the studio, it doesn't appear to have been much, and rather in-betweeny dates. I'm sure they could do another Stones-by-the-numbers album anytime, but that's not what we want, and apparently they don't want that either. The problem seems to be that Mick's and Keith's visions are quite divergent and there's very little room for compromizing.

I also think they would rather come up with something reasonable if they would reserve 3 months or so just for writing and recording but that doesn't seem to be an option anymore these days (sadly). Maybe also a matter of age.

I personally don’t care if anything is Mick’s or Keith’s “fault”. Also, I think it’s a mistake to expect another Sticky Fingers or Exile. This isn’t 1970/71 any longer, they are no longer in their twenties, much has happened since then, and the world as such is a different one. That doesn’t say they couldn’t still come up with a great album.

Quote
keithsman
I can't really even give all the credit to Brown Sugar to Mick, yes he wrote it but like with a lot of songs he writes, without Keith's sprinkling of fairy dust on them and adding his distinctive guitar sound to them, Micks songs end up sounding something like tracks from Shes The Boss.

That’s clear anyway, and that’s how it should be in a functioning group: everybody contributing in their own way. Otherwise, you better hire someone and do a solo album. I was just talking about original authorship, in the sense of who brought a song to a session. I don’t know how Mick brought the song, even if he had a demo it was certainly less elaborate than it would (supposedly) be today, in view of what home-recording technology was available back then as compared to what you can do nowadays (Cubase, ProTools, etc.)

Quote
nick
What I can't understand is why Keith and Ronnie and Charlie don't get pissed off that they have put in all these f'ing hours in a studio all these years just to have Mick say no to a release.

As for Ronnie and Charlie, perhaps because they're getting paid?

My impression with Charlie is that he will play his drums to whatever they serve him, and they don't ask him what he thinks of the songs. The only time I remember he protested was Cherry Oh Baby. Once the drumming is done, his job is done. Ronnie seems to have accepted the fact that he doesn't have much of a say and makes use of his energies in other areas (painting, the occasional solo album). Both of them certainly make more money from touring than a new album.

Quote
keithsman
...but how many hundreds of potentially great songs from God knows how many other session are out there somewhere, possibly from when the Stones were at their peak creatively. Hundreds of unfinished gems just sitting in a cassette somewhere. Meanwhile we wait over 13 years for so called new material, madness.

It’s funny in so far as it was Keith (in interviews from the 70s up to the early 80s) who was proud of the method of letting songs ripen that don’t go off immediately and getting back to them later. Seems like things got so fractured over time that that doesn’t really work out any longer. On the other hand, didn’t he say once that for the new album they were also checking out older ideas?

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: nick ()
Date: April 20, 2018 23:24

Quote
Hairball
Maybe the recent quote from Keith where he said to Mick "this isn't Stones material, release it on your own if you want" (paraphrase).
If so, that's not me as my signature

As for your post, in regards to wasting time and the various members being pissed off, if you calculate and condense how much time they've actually spent in a studio working as band, not sure of the exact number, but maybe a solid week (or two) at most spread out over a two year period or longer.
!

Yes I did confuse you with someone else on the signature. I see your point about the studio time however it is wasted time and effort.

Quote
doitywoik

As for Ronnie and Charlie, perhaps because they're getting paid?

Considering they are multi-millionaires I don't see the pay justifying the waste of time.

I guess I'm the one pissed off and frustrated. I'm usually able to just spout off and no one responds.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: doitywoik ()
Date: April 21, 2018 00:40

Well, Ronnie has to make up for divorce losses, and the kids want to be fed. He's even painting setlists lately to make ends meet.

And Charlie, them horses eats lotsa hay ... grinning smiley

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: keithsman ()
Date: April 21, 2018 00:46

Quote
nick
Quote
Hairball
Maybe the recent quote from Keith where he said to Mick "this isn't Stones material, release it on your own if you want" (paraphrase).
If so, that's not me as my signature

As for your post, in regards to wasting time and the various members being pissed off, if you calculate and condense how much time they've actually spent in a studio working as band, not sure of the exact number, but maybe a solid week (or two) at most spread out over a two year period or longer.
!

Yes I did confuse you with someone else on the signature. I see your point about the studio time however it is wasted time and effort.

Quote
doitywoik

As for Ronnie and Charlie, perhaps because they're getting paid?

Considering they are multi-millionaires I don't see the pay justifying the waste of time.

I guess I'm the one pissed off and frustrated. I'm usually able to just spout off and no one responds.

If you go against the hive mindset they will ignore you unless its to call you a troll to influence the moderator to try to get rid of you. The good thing is that our moderator has the intelligence to notice when someone is trying to influence him.
How trying to put the record straight or being passionate about Mick or Keith can be confused with trolling is beyond me, but there we have it, people don't like being called out.
Keith still has his mojo, it upsets a lot of Mick diehards. Its just the way it is. I still go to see the Stones, i still love the sound they make, i'm still a fan, but say anything negative about Mick and we get the usual suspects. Over the years here i have seen relentless personal attacks on Keith and its accepted for some reason.

The other funny thing some of them do when you disagree with them is they say you are drunk or insane or both , its just a knee jerk reaction, you disagree with their fantasy fictional characters of who they think the members of the Stones are, and so you must be angry drunk or in need of a kiss from your wife confused smiley
I'm not a particularly angry person, i love life, to my knowledge I've never needed a psychiatrist or an anti depressant, and as for kisses, as if that makes a difference, i get enough of them too. winking smiley

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: 35love ()
Date: April 21, 2018 02:34

Oh Keithsman, so silly, I don’t take any of this seriously, and neither should you. I love the Stones, but I don’t personally know any of them,
I thought we’re all just having fun.

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: April 21, 2018 02:39

and as for kisses, as if that makes a difference, i get enough of them too.

YEAH!!! .... so they still having kissing booths in your land .... ?????

ROCKMAN

Re: LEAK: 2002 Sessions - Discussion Thread and Info
Posted by: 35love ()
Date: April 21, 2018 02:43

P.S. “Keithsman”
The only reason I joked w/ you on the infamous Mick Taylor thread
because Hairball egged me on! The Micks chicks stepping in or something.
So chill dude. I won’t play with you no mo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-21 02:44 by 35love.

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