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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman
I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

I reckon it was more of an artistic choice? I'll take the accurate and controlled SFTD solo from St Louis '97 over the sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90 anyday. He probably could have played just as fast in 1997 but maybe maybe chose not to and focused more on accuracy and tastefulness.

I don't disagree with the SFTD-example, but I was thinking more on his playing in general. All of a sudden, it seemed there was stuff he just couldn't do anymore (you could hear him trying now and again) - hence he started to land on notes, taking «breaks» in the middle of solos, instead of keep on playing. Unfortunately, it wasn't always the root note he was landing on

Something definitely happened. Going from Mesas to Twins, and chosing a cleaner sound (except for some tunes in 94/95: Satisfaction ie) might have affected his style a bit, though.

He was just so on with his attack (Sad Sad Sad, Bitch, Rock And A Hard Place, SFTD, Almost Hear You Sigh, 2000 Light Years From Home) in 1989/90, and gradually that attack (and not least his timing) waned, imo.

That doesn't mean he still played great stuff, he did. He still does, if one cares to listen. The licks at the end of Sister Morphine on Fonda is like: «Wow, you still got it, why don't you do that more often?»

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RaiseTheKnife
sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90

Really? I think that solo was the best part of the SW shows. Keef wasn't "on" every night, but when he was he was brilliant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-02 17:17 by dcba.

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DandelionPowderman

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Palace Revolution 2000

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DandelionPowderman
Nothing before or after resembles SFTD, including the solo - just as nothing resembles Sitting On A Fence and the guitar on that one.

There are many more examples of Keith laying down bafflingly cool guitar tracks.

The super-fast, free jazz/psychedelic guitar on See What Happens is another one that came out of left field

''
Exactly Dandy; well said.
Keith was in the zone for those 4-5 years. There is a reason Keith is mentioned among the greatest guitarists of rock again and again. At some freakin point he blew our minds. Just because he has not done it since doesn't take away from it.

And actually there are many instances of Keith playing baffingly well. First off he was very fast, and very accurate on the early R&B solos.
"Down the Road Apiece" just e.g.; but all the way to the Wino live shows. I saw Keith both tours, and maybe it was Jordan, maybe it was wassy, maybe it was playing on small stages night after night with a newer band - but he was on fire.

I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

No Dandy - actually IMO I liked him more in '92 tour. I might be talking more about his riffing, the way he totally carried his part of playing while singing.
I agree that at some point his playing took a massive drop. What you mention about the breaking in mid solo. I actually like when a player does this: take a second, slide up and down neck to recharge, re-inspire. But Keith spends more time breaking vs. playing nowadays, LOL
I still think this has to be attributed to the fall, and to the medications since.

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Palace Revolution 2000

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DandelionPowderman

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Palace Revolution 2000

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DandelionPowderman
Nothing before or after resembles SFTD, including the solo - just as nothing resembles Sitting On A Fence and the guitar on that one.

There are many more examples of Keith laying down bafflingly cool guitar tracks.

The super-fast, free jazz/psychedelic guitar on See What Happens is another one that came out of left field

''
Exactly Dandy; well said.
Keith was in the zone for those 4-5 years. There is a reason Keith is mentioned among the greatest guitarists of rock again and again. At some freakin point he blew our minds. Just because he has not done it since doesn't take away from it.

And actually there are many instances of Keith playing baffingly well. First off he was very fast, and very accurate on the early R&B solos.
"Down the Road Apiece" just e.g.; but all the way to the Wino live shows. I saw Keith both tours, and maybe it was Jordan, maybe it was wassy, maybe it was playing on small stages night after night with a newer band - but he was on fire.

I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

No Dandy - actually IMO I liked him more in '92 tour. I might be talking more about his riffing, the way he totally carried his part of playing while singing.
I agree that at some point his playing took a massive drop. What you mention about the breaking in mid solo. I actually like when a player does this: take a second, slide up and down neck to recharge, re-inspire. But Keith spends more time breaking vs. playing nowadays, LOL
I still think this has to be attributed to the fall, and to the medications since.

That's exactly what he started doing back then

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DandelionPowderman
Nothing before or after resembles SFTD, including the solo - just as nothing resembles Sitting On A Fence and the guitar on that one.

There are many more examples of Keith laying down bafflingly cool guitar tracks.

The super-fast, free jazz/psychedelic guitar on See What Happens is another one that came out of left field

True enough, but since Sympathy has been a live warhorse pretty much since it's release, it's easier to make comparisons between the studio and live versions.
Has Sitting on a Fence or See What happens ever been played live?

As I stated previously: "I can't think of any live versions that sound quite like the original does. Sure many are great, but rarely do they even come close to the studio version as far as style and technique".

In reply to your original comment, that is why some may ' think this solo is particularly difficult or something that Keith, their lead guitarist since 1962, couldn't play'.

Again, I'm not doubting it's him, but can understand why others don't.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-02 18:32 by Hairball.

The Rock'n'Roll Circus-version is the closest he got, naturally.

<True enough, but since Sympathy has been a live warhorse pretty much since it's release, it's easier to make comparisons between the studio and live versions. >

Sympathy was much more special when it was NOT a warhorse. They skipped it in 1972, 1978 and 1981; thus it was a special treat to have it back in 1989. And of course they've trotted it out every tour since then...

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

They should stop playing it.

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

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powerage78
They should stop playing it.

The solo never was crucial for the song.

The solo spoils the song now.

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

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HonkeyTonkFlash
<True enough, but since Sympathy has been a live warhorse pretty much since it's release, it's easier to make comparisons between the studio and live versions. >

Sympathy was much more special when it was NOT a warhorse. They skipped it in 1972, 1978 and 1981; thus it was a special treat to have it back in 1989. And of course they've trotted it out every tour since then...

Perhaps it was a 'special treat' to hear it played in 1989 - I still enjoy it on occasion to this day...screwed up solo's, drum machines, and all. Even though it keeps getting worse and worse, the majority of the crowd seems to love it every time! But my original point was regarding Keith's solo specifically: "I can't think of any live versions that sound quite like the original does. Sure many are great, but rarely do they even come close to the studio version as far as style and technique". Maybe I wasn't clear on that. As Dandelion pointed out with his reply, the "Rock'N'Roll Circus version is the closest he got, naturally". Not sure what he means by 'naturally' (maybe because it was during the same period?), but I trust his judgement.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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powerage78
The solo spoils the song now.

The song spoils the set now.
It's all of it: the pre-recorded drum loop; CHarlie with head phones; Jagger in respective tour's crazy outfit for the song, which nowadays usually looks ludicrous, and practically no guitars. By now I wonder if we are even getting live keyboards.

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Palace Revolution 2000
I just don't understand why he doesn't brag on the solo. He knows it is an iconic sound and solo. Why does he not take more credit for it?

To *us* it's iconic, but to Keith maybe it's just something he tossed off in the studio and barely remembers. Think of how many leads he's done. Maybe no one has ever asked him specifically to comment on this one. Moreover, I find it hard to imagine Keith letting another guitarist step in and play lead on "his" song.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-02 23:35 by TheBadRabbit.

For what it's worth, Jagger looked pretty good during Sympathy the last few shows.
No gorilla suits in sight.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

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DandelionPowderman

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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman
I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

I reckon it was more of an artistic choice? I'll take the accurate and controlled SFTD solo from St Louis '97 over the sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90 anyday. He probably could have played just as fast in 1997 but maybe maybe chose not to and focused more on accuracy and tastefulness.

I don't disagree with the SFTD-example, but I was thinking more on his playing in general. All of a sudden, it seemed there was stuff he just couldn't do anymore (you could hear him trying now and again) - hence he started to land on notes, taking «breaks» in the middle of solos, instead of keep on playing. Unfortunately, it wasn't always the root note he was landing on

Something definitely happened. Going from Mesas to Twins, and chosing a cleaner sound (except for some tunes in 94/95: Satisfaction ie) might have affected his style a bit, though.

He was just so on with his attack (Sad Sad Sad, Bitch, Rock And A Hard Place, SFTD, Almost Hear You Sigh, 2000 Light Years From Home) in 1989/90, and gradually that attack (and not least his timing) waned, imo.

That doesn't mean he still played great stuff, he did. He still does, if one cares to listen. The licks at the end of Sister Morphine on Fonda is like: «Wow, you still got it, why don't you do that more often?»

Interesting, he was good in 89/90 no doubt but he often overplayed I think, like here: SFTD Dallas 1989. Often he's off time with his licks, many bends are sharp and he misses many notes. Some of those licks he could play faster in 1997.

Do you have any examples of the landing on notes and failing to play old licks during the BTB-tour? I kind of think I now what you're talking about, maybe I remember it from the Chicago opening night gig 1997.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-03 00:10 by RaiseTheKnife.

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dcba

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RaiseTheKnife
sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90

Really? I think that solo was the best part of the SW shows. Keef wasn't "on" every night, but when he was he was brilliant.

I haven't listened through every bootleg from those years and there might be some hidden treasures, please recommend some!

The ones I remember off the top of my head were rather sloppy.

Seeing that they've never played SFTD on tour like the LP version why would Keith ever play the solo like the LP version? There's some foundation for it in all that he's ever done with it and some tours he's really done a great job of it; some tours it's been 'whatever' and the rest, well, awful bad to horrendous comes to mind.

The funniest thing would be if they did do it more like the LP version: dump the stupid drum sample loop, use real percussion, Keith solo's similar or even less so than the record - it's not like it's Stairway To Heaven busy - and don't play it for 18 minutes.

They've NEVER played 'its only rock'n roll' like the studio version either. I recall Mick singing lead with a band on Faloon (?) exactly like the original, thinking to myself 'why can't the Stones be bothered to play like that!'

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midimannz
They've NEVER played 'its only rock'n roll' like the studio version either. I recall Mick singing lead with a band on Faloon (?) exactly like the original, thinking to myself 'why can't the Stones be bothered to play like that!'

Because The Stones didn't shape the original. In fact, no Stone played on the original backing tracks.

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GravityBoy
I must watch the Godard film again.

I can't remember Keith doing the solo in it.

And to be fair, it's not "usual Keith" and does have a touch of the Jimmy Pages about it.

He does, and another thing worth to notice: Brian Jones comes up with the hammer on that later became very evident in the Ya-ya version.

Yup. On the acoustic. Great little turnaround.

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TheBadRabbit

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Palace Revolution 2000
I just don't understand why he doesn't brag on the solo. He knows it is an iconic sound and solo. Why does he not take more credit for it?

To *us* it's iconic, but to Keith maybe it's just something he tossed off in the studio and barely remembers. Think of how many leads he's done. Maybe no one has ever asked him specifically to comment on this one. Moreover, I find it hard to imagine Keith letting another guitarist step in and play lead on "his" song.

What, five? Six maybe.

Keith has always downplayed his guitar skills, but he wrote about them eloquently in LIFE. One of my favorite parts of his book.

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midimannz
They've NEVER played 'its only rock'n roll' like the studio version either. I recall Mick singing lead with a band on Faloon (?) exactly like the original, thinking to myself 'why can't the Stones be bothered to play like that!'

Foo Fighters and Mick (audio):

[www.youtube.com]

Fantastic !

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bleedingman

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midimannz
They've NEVER played 'its only rock'n roll' like the studio version either. I recall Mick singing lead with a band on Faloon (?) exactly like the original, thinking to myself 'why can't the Stones be bothered to play like that!'

Foo Fighters and Mick (audio):

[www.youtube.com]

***
I'm just a Bad Boy Boogie

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powerage78
Fantastic !

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bleedingman

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midimannz
They've NEVER played 'its only rock'n roll' like the studio version either. I recall Mick singing lead with a band on Faloon (?) exactly like the original, thinking to myself 'why can't the Stones be bothered to play like that!'

Foo Fighters and Mick (audio):

[www.youtube.com]

An important lesson in how not to play rock'n'roll, imo. It's just rock

There's someting else not mentioned specifically in this thread... which seems to have expanded to be about Keith's playing in general.

We aren't keith so we can't know, but The arthritic nodes on his fingers must in the modern era have made it difficult if not impossible to play certain patterns or types of lick with any precision or fluidity.

He's learnt to work around this and has found other effective ways of playing...but it's certainly one factor in why his playing today is different [not always inferior] to the way he used to play.

The SFTD stuff I believe has various causes...not least of which is that his solos have become nothing more than a sonic accompanyment to his theatrical tour of the walkways, dispensing picks and daft grins to the faithful

He'also on occasions too inclined to wing it to extremes....thinking himself to be some kind of avant-garde Jazz Player.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-11-04 12:07 by Spud.

SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL, SANS GODARD

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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman

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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman
I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

I reckon it was more of an artistic choice? I'll take the accurate and controlled SFTD solo from St Louis '97 over the sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90 anyday. He probably could have played just as fast in 1997 but maybe maybe chose not to and focused more on accuracy and tastefulness.

I don't disagree with the SFTD-example, but I was thinking more on his playing in general. All of a sudden, it seemed there was stuff he just couldn't do anymore (you could hear him trying now and again) - hence he started to land on notes, taking «breaks» in the middle of solos, instead of keep on playing. Unfortunately, it wasn't always the root note he was landing on

Something definitely happened. Going from Mesas to Twins, and chosing a cleaner sound (except for some tunes in 94/95: Satisfaction ie) might have affected his style a bit, though.

He was just so on with his attack (Sad Sad Sad, Bitch, Rock And A Hard Place, SFTD, Almost Hear You Sigh, 2000 Light Years From Home) in 1989/90, and gradually that attack (and not least his timing) waned, imo.

That doesn't mean he still played great stuff, he did. He still does, if one cares to listen. The licks at the end of Sister Morphine on Fonda is like: «Wow, you still got it, why don't you do that more often?»

Interesting, he was good in 89/90 no doubt but he often overplayed I think, like here: SFTD Dallas 1989. Often he's off time with his licks, many bends are sharp and he misses many notes. Some of those licks he could play faster in 1997.

Do you have any examples of the landing on notes and failing to play old licks during the BTB-tour? I kind of think I now what you're talking about, maybe I remember it from the Chicago opening night gig 1997.

The thing that happens in the ending here would appear in most of this solos later on.





[www.youtube.com]

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DandelionPowderman

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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman

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RaiseTheKnife

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DandelionPowderman
I reckon you mean the 1988 Winos-shows? I think something happened after 1990. It might have been the arthrithis kicking in. Anyways, he changed his lead guitar-style. It was very noticable on the B2B-tour that he focused on fewer notes and repeating stuff, instead of exploring new things, like he actually did on the SW/UJ tours.

I reckon it was more of an artistic choice? I'll take the accurate and controlled SFTD solo from St Louis '97 over the sloppy and messy solos he played on that song in '89 and '90 anyday. He probably could have played just as fast in 1997 but maybe maybe chose not to and focused more on accuracy and tastefulness.

I don't disagree with the SFTD-example, but I was thinking more on his playing in general. All of a sudden, it seemed there was stuff he just couldn't do anymore (you could hear him trying now and again) - hence he started to land on notes, taking «breaks» in the middle of solos, instead of keep on playing. Unfortunately, it wasn't always the root note he was landing on

Something definitely happened. Going from Mesas to Twins, and chosing a cleaner sound (except for some tunes in 94/95: Satisfaction ie) might have affected his style a bit, though.

He was just so on with his attack (Sad Sad Sad, Bitch, Rock And A Hard Place, SFTD, Almost Hear You Sigh, 2000 Light Years From Home) in 1989/90, and gradually that attack (and not least his timing) waned, imo.

That doesn't mean he still played great stuff, he did. He still does, if one cares to listen. The licks at the end of Sister Morphine on Fonda is like: «Wow, you still got it, why don't you do that more often?»

Interesting, he was good in 89/90 no doubt but he often overplayed I think, like here: SFTD Dallas 1989. Often he's off time with his licks, many bends are sharp and he misses many notes. Some of those licks he could play faster in 1997.

Do you have any examples of the landing on notes and failing to play old licks during the BTB-tour? I kind of think I now what you're talking about, maybe I remember it from the Chicago opening night gig 1997.

The thing that happens in the ending here would appear in most of this solos later on.





[www.youtube.com]

Can't see what so wrong about resting on the major sixth over an E major chord progression? It would obviously sound a bit unsatisfying if he ended the solo on that note but here's he's just building tension for the end of the solo. To my ears at least it sounds great.