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Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: GravityBoy ()
Date: December 12, 2011 10:35

Quote
Justin
A capo would not have helped Keith in the Sympathy solo.

A capo at the 22nd fret might have helped the SFTD solo in the Shine a Light film.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Bärs ()
Date: December 12, 2011 11:04

Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont know where this idea that Keith doesnt play the solo comes from. It's ridicolous. It's not one of those Hendrix solos, it's a very simple standard blues thing only with a very cool sound. It's good but not great. And yes, I hear now that it's clearly inspired by Traffic. The whole song. And yet it's their very own song.

Because like Bärs, and Ive said before, they are masters at picking up stuff, even stealing the way you do in the music business, screwing people even, but in a very productive way. And of course writing their own stuff. They are masters at producing the image of the greatest rock n roll band in the world and the soundtrack was produced - with the sometimes crucial help of others like it or not - from 1964-1982. Like all boy bands they werent scared of using the help they needed back in 1968 after the Monkeelike downfall of 1967. Miller helped them. Ry cooder gave more than he understood at the time, Gram, maybe Marianne and Anita, Nicky, Billy. Brian and Bill. Taylor. Ronnie. Maybe others. Still it's all labeled with Mick's toungue. Now that's how you do music business.

I think The Beatles are the best example. Everybody seem to think that they somehow spearheaded the development of everything during th 60s, when they did what everybody else did. The Stones have alwas made a polite bow towards the blues, but The Beatles are seen as creators of something entirerly different.

The whole worship of originality in art, literature and music (classic, jazz, rock...) is misdirected and a relic of 19th century romanticism and it's cult of The Suffering Genious. Ultimately everything in the west goes back to the gregorian chant, itself an adaption of ancient jewish religious music.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: liddas ()
Date: December 12, 2011 11:42

Quote
Justin

You can achieve the same solo without the capo. It does absolutely nothing for the solo but it has everything to do with the key of the song. Capos assist in making playing chords easier---not solos.

The Albert Collins clip does nothing to prove that the capo is there to help with his solo. If anything it gives us an idea what keys Albert preferred to sing in. From the various clips online we see that Albert's preferred range was between C and Eflat (frets 8 to 11). But his favorite seemed to be C. Anything between C and Eflat would be a pain in the ass to play play rhythm without a capo. The only advantage of having his capo on is when he's done soloing--he can play the chords as if he was playing in E. That's it.

Anything that involves "bite to his sound" is caused by two things: 1) Albert never used a pick: he used his fingers to pluck and strike the strings; this will most definitely create a sharper sound in any solo, 2) any solo between the 7th fret or higher will inevitably sound tighter as you go up higher on the neck--and that's all without the help of a capo.

Actually yes and no.

Albert Collins used a particular minor open tuning. This, together with the capo placed high up in the neck allowed him to obtain some interesting voicings also by adding pull-offs and hammer-ons on open strings in octaves where this would usually be impossible.

As for the main thread, Keith 100%.


C

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 12, 2011 12:58

Quote
Bärs
Quote
Redhotcarpet
I dont know where this idea that Keith doesnt play the solo comes from. It's ridicolous. It's not one of those Hendrix solos, it's a very simple standard blues thing only with a very cool sound. It's good but not great. And yes, I hear now that it's clearly inspired by Traffic. The whole song. And yet it's their very own song.

Because like Bärs, and Ive said before, they are masters at picking up stuff, even stealing the way you do in the music business, screwing people even, but in a very productive way. And of course writing their own stuff. They are masters at producing the image of the greatest rock n roll band in the world and the soundtrack was produced - with the sometimes crucial help of others like it or not - from 1964-1982. Like all boy bands they werent scared of using the help they needed back in 1968 after the Monkeelike downfall of 1967. Miller helped them. Ry cooder gave more than he understood at the time, Gram, maybe Marianne and Anita, Nicky, Billy. Brian and Bill. Taylor. Ronnie. Maybe others. Still it's all labeled with Mick's toungue. Now that's how you do music business.

I think The Beatles are the best example. Everybody seem to think that they somehow spearheaded the development of everything during th 60s, when they did what everybody else did. The Stones have alwas made a polite bow towards the blues, but The Beatles are seen as creators of something entirerly different.

The whole worship of originality in art, literature and music (classic, jazz, rock...) is misdirected and a relic of 19th century romanticism and it's cult of The Suffering Genious. Ultimately everything in the west goes back to the gregorian chant, itself an adaption of ancient jewish religious music.

>grinning smiley<Spot on.
And I might add that of course Jagger/Richards have written a whole bunch of songs, I was too harsh there.

But I do think their greatness lies in the whole production (put together a song - write it from scratch or borrow some of it, release single, then the record, tour promotion, posters, pictures, the tour, events between tours, new members, sidemen, new trends in music and fashion, storytelling in magazines - the story of Marianne, Brian, open G, Keiths heroin addiction, Mick's women, what amps were used, why did taylor leave etc) and their ability to change. Like Bärs said, look at the Beatles. And they were compared to Schubert (ridicolous) and they themselves suggested Mozart (closer).

And yes Stones have always been open about that old mission. Blues, Rock n roll, Country and folk. Reggae.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: December 12, 2011 16:44

"As for the main thread, Keith 100%"

Imho it's Clapton or Mason 95%.
Or Keith had the tape op slow down the backing track (8%? 16%?) and he played the solo in a lower key (D#m? Dm?).
When played back at the right pitch it sounds like the work of a skilled lead guitarist (sth Keith wasn't in 68).

The studio trick is named vari-speed and it was used extensively in the late 60's / early 70's (Layla the album is a good example).
Wasn't JJF sped-up slightly (by 4% iirc) and wasn't the 1st (1988?) cd pressing of BB faulty because it was spot-on pitchwise (should have been a bit faster).

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 12, 2011 16:55

Quote
dcba
Imho it's Clapton or Mason 95%. quote]


Really? What notes did Mason and /or Clapton play in this short solo then, the notes Keith didnt play on One plus one?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-12 16:55 by Redhotcarpet.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Justin ()
Date: December 12, 2011 20:10

Quote
liddas
Quote
Justin

You can achieve the same solo without the capo. It does absolutely nothing for the solo but it has everything to do with the key of the song. Capos assist in making playing chords easier---not solos.

The Albert Collins clip does nothing to prove that the capo is there to help with his solo. If anything it gives us an idea what keys Albert preferred to sing in. From the various clips online we see that Albert's preferred range was between C and Eflat (frets 8 to 11). But his favorite seemed to be C. Anything between C and Eflat would be a pain in the ass to play play rhythm without a capo. The only advantage of having his capo on is when he's done soloing--he can play the chords as if he was playing in E. That's it.

Anything that involves "bite to his sound" is caused by two things: 1) Albert never used a pick: he used his fingers to pluck and strike the strings; this will most definitely create a sharper sound in any solo, 2) any solo between the 7th fret or higher will inevitably sound tighter as you go up higher on the neck--and that's all without the help of a capo.

Actually yes and no.

Albert Collins used a particular minor open tuning. This, together with the capo placed high up in the neck allowed him to obtain some interesting voicings also by adding pull-offs and hammer-ons on open strings in octaves where this would usually be impossible.

As for the main thread, Keith 100%.


C

Good info on the tunings, thanks. But as you mention, the capo here helped with the voicings...not the attack or "bite" of the solo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 12, 2011 20:11

Quote
dcba
"As for the main thread, Keith 100%"

Imho it's Clapton or Mason 95%.
Or Keith had the tape op slow down the backing track (8%? 16%?) and he played the solo in a lower key (D#m? Dm?).
When played back at the right pitch it sounds like the work of a skilled lead guitarist (sth Keith wasn't in 68).

The studio trick is named vari-speed and it was used extensively in the late 60's / early 70's (Layla the album is a good example).
Wasn't JJF sped-up slightly (by 4% iirc) and wasn't the 1st (1988?) cd pressing of BB faulty because it was spot-on pitchwise (should have been a bit faster).

You're not serious right? I mean, you are pulling our legs right?

Mathijs

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 12, 2011 20:14

Sympathy for the Devil started as sort of a folk song with acoustics, and ended up as a kind of mad samba, with me playing bass and overdubbing the guitar later. That's why I don't like to go into the studio with all the songs worked out and planned beforehand.

- Keith Richards, 1977

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Justin ()
Date: December 12, 2011 20:16

Quote
dcba
Or Keith had the tape op slow down the backing track (8%? 16%?) and he played the solo in a lower key (D#m? Dm?).
When played back at the right pitch it sounds like the work of a skilled lead guitarist (sth Keith wasn't in 68).

It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-12 20:17 by Justin.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: gwen ()
Date: December 12, 2011 22:28

Quote
Justin
But as you mention, the capo here helped with the voicings...not the attack or "bite" of the solo.

Of course I know most of Albert's bite comes from his fingerpicking and also his amps settings. However, I do think the shorter scale on open strings and brighter sound on open strings (due to the capo) emphasizes the effect. The way the strings resist your fingers with a capo so high also calls for more brutal playing.

Anyway, my video was just a joke reply to 71Tele, "Why would anyone use a capo to play a solo?" - I never actually believed there was a capo on Sympathy's solo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: ChrisM ()
Date: December 12, 2011 22:37

Regarding using a capo for soloing, it would certainly come in handy if one needed open strings during the course of solo. However in this is not the case in Keith's SFTD solo...

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: December 12, 2011 22:52

Quote
ChrisM
Regarding using a capo for soloing, it would certainly come in handy if one needed open strings during the course of solo. However in this is not the case in Keith's SFTD solo...

That's what I meant. Most of the SFTD solo is played an octave above the open E, hence no need for a capo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: December 12, 2011 23:14

"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 12, 2011 23:18

Quote
dcba
"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

But it is an encredible easy solo to play, there's really nothing to it. It is not fast by any standard, there's not much technique involved.

And the idea of a capo is ludicrous.

Mathijs

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: stonesdan60 ()
Date: December 15, 2011 00:09

All things considered I'm sure it was Keith. It's just the overwhelmingly powerful sound that makes it sound more intricate than it really is. Being that from the Ya Yas era on, Keith approached the solo in drastically different ways, I was recently surprised to uncover a video of the Stones performing SFTD somewhere in (I think) Japan in 1990 and Keith tore into the solo with a barrage of biting licks that were the closest thing to the studio version I've ever heard him play live. (Piercing treble and heavy distortion didn't hurt!) It was definitely a slice of stellar latter period Keith. Gotta find that video and try to post it here. I think it was Tokyo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: GrandToad ()
Date: December 15, 2011 04:37

The solo isn't that hard to play. It's just one of those sets of notes that comes out just right and makes a good solo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: December 15, 2011 05:58

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
dcba
"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

But it is an encredible easy solo to play, there's really nothing to it. It is not fast by any standard, there's not much technique involved.

And the idea of a capo is ludicrous.

Mathijs

i agree w/ Mathijs here, not much to it. My money says it was Keith, no worries. peace.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: December 15, 2011 06:39

Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to let the music do the talking. Do it (and more) and post it on youtube.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-15 07:00 by Max'sKansasCity.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: tomk ()
Date: December 15, 2011 06:51

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
dcba
"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

But it is an encredible easy solo to play, there's really nothing to it. It is not fast by any standard, there's not much technique involved.

And the idea of a capo is ludicrous.

Mathijs

i agree w/ Mathijs here, not much to it. My money says it was Keith, no worries. peace.

True, it's not that difficult to play. It's that first guitar blast that's the noticeable part, and that comes down to (sorry for this word) serendipity.
Actually, the better part is the busking he's doing at the end, those short licks at the last minute or so.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: December 15, 2011 06:57

Quote
tomk
Quote
Naturalust
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
dcba
"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

But it is an encredible easy solo to play, there's really nothing to it. It is not fast by any standard, there's not much technique involved.

And the idea of a capo is ludicrous.

Mathijs

i agree w/ Mathijs here, not much to it. My money says it was Keith, no worries. peace.

True, it's not that difficult to play. It's that first guitar blast that's the noticeable part, and that comes down to (sorry for this word) serendipity.
Actually, the better part is the busking he's doing at the end, those short licks at the last minute or so.
Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to show us this solo... it is easy... post it to youtube... give us a look, come on, it will be fun....

.... or of course 151 reasons not to (want to) do it is fine too

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: howled ()
Date: December 15, 2011 07:14

The solo was played with Keiths Black Gibson Les Paul

In this pre samba clip anyone can hear Keith playing the solo





[www.gibson.com]















Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-15 07:37 by howled.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: tomk ()
Date: December 15, 2011 07:48

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Quote
tomk
Quote
Naturalust
Quote
Mathijs
Quote
dcba
"It's still the same scale if he played in D or D#. If Keith couldn't play it in E...then he wouldn't have been able to play it in any other key."

What I'm saying is it's easier to play anything when the tape op slowed down the backing tape you play over eye rolling smiley

But it is an encredible easy solo to play, there's really nothing to it. It is not fast by any standard, there's not much technique involved.

And the idea of a capo is ludicrous.

Mathijs

i agree w/ Mathijs here, not much to it. My money says it was Keith, no worries. peace.

True, it's not that difficult to play. It's that first guitar blast that's the noticeable part, and that comes down to (sorry for this word) serendipity.
Actually, the better part is the busking he's doing at the end, those short licks at the last minute or so.
Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to show us this solo... it is easy... post it to youtube... give us a look, come on, it will be fun....

.... or of course 151 reasons not to (want to) do it is fine too

Well, this isn't me, but this guy nails it pretty good. True, it's not that difficult, the licks, but coming up with it a different story.





Outro.





Ya-ya's




Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: December 15, 2011 08:13

Thanks for those tomk

I am hoping some of our local guitar heros (supposed experts) do it for us and without the actual song/band playing so loudly in the background... we know what it sounds like... so let er rip boys....come on, everyone has a video device, and posting to youtube is soooo easy.

But ya know, I am not even sure what the point of this thread is. Really, what is the point? I used to go to school with a cival engineer (he went on to design bridges, he was smart, a freekin genius) anyway... this guy could play anything note for note... I mean anything... anything from Hendrix to Page or Eddie VanHalen... he would use LPs to learn it note for note... and when he played it... it was pefect, like a recording... he was amazing..... he couldnt write anything original... but he could play other people stuff perfectly.

My point is.... we all know, or have known, people like that... so there is no neeed for any snotty ass, holier-than-thou attitudes on this board. No one needs to act all high and mighty. If you can play it, then play it, record and post it on youtube... get applause from IORR... or not.

It is just odd that I (we) have heard Keith NOT play it correctly live for year and years. I listen for it, and he blows it, baddly, most of the time. It is just unusual.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: howled ()
Date: December 15, 2011 08:26

But Keith does play the solo.

Spelling it out, around the 3.25 mark, Keith is playing the main parts of the solo in this clip and Keith says he is changing amps and continues to play the main bits of the solo and the tone is different because Keith has changed amps and Jimmy Miller is talking to Keith right at the end of the solo bits, calling him Keith and asking him to turn down the amp at one point and Keith is talking to Jimmy Miller.

That is Keith's voice talking during the solo bits and Jimmy Miller has an American accent and actually says Keith's name during the solo bits.

There is really nothing more to prove.







Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-15 09:11 by howled.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: tomk ()
Date: December 15, 2011 08:48

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Thanks for those tomk

It is just odd that I (we) have heard Keith NOT play it correctly live for year and years. I listen for it, and he blows it, baddly, most of the time. It is just unusual.

I don't know if you're a musician, but when recording, sometimes you do get into a so-called "studio mode." Tones are different, licks are different, less is more, etc. And then when you play it live you have to compensate by playing more, just 'cause it's a live gig and all the nonsense that goes on. As for SFTD, Keith hasn't played that way since he did that solo, so why start now? It does have its roots in some of the Satanic Majesties tunes and Stray Cat Blues like someone said earlier.
But by 1972, and even 1978, he's a totally different guitar player. '67-'69 was a totally experimental guitar phase for him, which he dropped after Let It Bleed, and changed after they went on the road.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: howled ()
Date: December 15, 2011 09:34

Keith and Brian and Bill and Charlie all seem to underplay on the Stones stuff because they are basically commercial recordings.

Charlie can probably play any Jazz beat around and Jazz drumming can get complex.

I was reading an interview with Ian Stewart [www.iorr.org] where he said that Brian could play Django like stuff which isn't that easy.

The Stones songs didn't call much for Jazz playing so we never hear Charlie or Brian playing it.

Keith could play Blues style electric solos but only needs to let it all go in certain songs and only for a small amount of time.

The Stones are about the song and what fits the song and not trying to prove how great they all were/are at soloing.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Justin ()
Date: December 15, 2011 09:54

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to show us this solo... it is easy... post it to youtube... give us a look, come on, it will be fun....

.... or of course 151 reasons not to (want to) do it is fine too

What does my post about capos have to do with me playing the Sympathy solo?

You suggested Keith used a capo to play the solo...I explained how that wasn't the case- and now you're egging people on to post their videos just so you could give them crap. Well played.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 15, 2011 13:02

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to let the music do the talking. Do it (and more) and post it on youtube.

Why?

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: December 15, 2011 13:12

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Havent read this thread for a while... always amusing to check in on this type of thing on IORR... read posters acting all high and mighty..... well how about this... lets invite Justin and Mathijs and anyone else who feels like it/ talks like it / posts like it.... to let the music do the talking. Do it (and more) and post it on youtube.

With the old band we did some 250 or so shows, and won a contest of best tribute band, so there's not much more to prove I guess...

Mathijs

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