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Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: December 10, 2011 15:55

Quote
with sssoul
Quote
Doxa
I think they all seem to grant that the dramatical changes they did to the song were proposed by Miller.)

" ... I mean, Keith suggested that we do it in another rhythm, so that's how bands help you"
- Mick Jagger, 1995 (quoted on [www.timeisonourside.com] , along with a lot of other worthwhile statements from people who were there)

Thanks!

Hmm.. this is how memory makes tricks. I swear I remember reading Miller involvement in suggesting the rhythm change, even quoted by the band members, but I seem to be wrong. None of those quotes in timeisnomyside.com seem to suggest that, and the site usually covers quite extensively all the relevant quotes.

Anyway, who did the proposal is not the main point here. What I find interesting is the resemblance of "Dear Mr. Fantasy" and "Sympathy For The Devil", which is striking in the guitar solo department (but not only there!) and the fact that Jimmy Miller produced them both. There is a link I think it is not co-incidental. My theory of Miller suggesting the Traffic scheme to Jagger's folk song was just one way to count 'one plus one'...grinning smiley

Besides there needs to be reasons why Mick and Keith in the first place selected Jimmy Miller for their producer. They surely were heard some of his stuff to be sure of his abilities. And I guess listening to Traffic was surely one of those... It could be very well that Mick and Keith picked ideas straight from Traffic, as they did from The Velvet Underground, etc.

But all-over, I think co-work of Mick and Keith on one hand and Jimmy Miller on the other is one of those 'not so clear deals' in the history of the Stones. Some sources seems to belittle Miller's significance since Mick and Keith were the only real bosses on the studio, and Miller just helping them a bit here and there. But others seem to give more credit to Miller's contribution in shaping the 'golden era' albums.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-10 16:04 by Doxa.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: December 10, 2011 17:34

Quote
stonesdan60
... it's very clear to hear who's playing what, especially with headphones. Keith is always in the right channel; Ron Wood (or MT on Ya Yas) is in the left channel.

I think you're wrong, it's usually Keith on the left and Ronnie on the right ... although admittedly I tend to put my headphones on in reverse.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: tatters ()
Date: December 10, 2011 18:06

Quote
with sssoul
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
Why does he not take more credit for it?

... i'm puzzled: what would taking credit for it consist of,
other than signing his name to it and saying "yes that's me" when asked?

I found it surprising that he makes no mention of it 'Life', especially since he describes proudly and at length how JJF and SFM were put together.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: December 10, 2011 18:33

Quote
tatters
I found it surprising that he makes no mention of it 'Life', especially since he describes proudly and at length how JJF and SFM were put together.

well but the technique he describes for recording those two was quite unusual, so there's something to say besides
"yeah, i turned the treble up to 11 and tattooed that solo on the human race's consciousness forever, then had breakfast"

but you can ask Keith for more detail about the solo (and/or why he doesn't brag more about it!): [www.keithrichards.com]

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: December 10, 2011 18:40

Quote
with sssoul


..you can ask Keith for more detail about the solo (and/or why he doesn't brag more about it!): [www.keithrichards.com]

Just asked the man himself. I've always wanted to know and it's one of those nerdy rock arguments that have been going on in pubs for years. If I get an answer I'll report back.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: tatters ()
Date: December 10, 2011 20:06

From timeisonourside.com

The Stones were definitely aware of the Velvets. Before joining the band briefly for their first album, German singer Nico was signed by Andrew Oldham in 1965 and Brian contributed to her first single. Brian was still hanging out with her in 1967, attending the Monterey Pop Festival with her. Though the Stones were not tremendously influenced by the Velvets, in later years Mick confessed that they were "inspired" by the guitar lick on the song Heroin for their own Stray Cat Blues in 1968.

"I mean, even WE'VE been influenced by the Velvet Underground... I'll tell you exactly what we pinched from (Lou Reed) too. You know Stray Cat Blues? The whole sound and the way it's paced, we pinched from the very first Velvet Underground album. You know, the sound on Heroin. Honest to God, we did!"
-Mick Jagger

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: December 10, 2011 20:17

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
with sssoul


..you can ask Keith for more detail about the solo (and/or why he doesn't brag more about it!): [www.keithrichards.com]

Just asked the man himself. I've always wanted to know and it's one of those nerdy rock arguments that have been going on in pubs for years. If I get an answer I'll report back.

How cool will it be when Keith replies to this?

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Max'sKansasCity ()
Date: December 10, 2011 20:19

PRETTY FREEKIN COOL!!!

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: December 10, 2011 20:28

I mean, does he really reply personally to these e-mailed questions? I rather doubt it, but would love to hear his answer if he does!

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: December 10, 2011 20:41

Quote
71Tele
I mean, does he really reply personally to these e-mailed questions? I rather doubt it, but would love to hear his answer if he does!

he replies to selected ones - in some cases on video, even.
our very own iorr cohort gwen got a question answered on the old site.

"did you play the SftD solo" was asked on the old site (the answer was yes)
when i suggested (above) that someone could ask about the solo, i meant details like
"how did you get that tone and why don't you brag about it?" - but never mind! :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-10 20:59 by with sssoul.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: December 10, 2011 21:37

Quote
with sssoul
Quote
71Tele
I mean, does he really reply personally to these e-mailed questions? I rather doubt it, but would love to hear his answer if he does!

he replies to selected ones - in some cases on video, even.
our very own iorr cohort gwen got a question answered on the old site.

"did you play the SftD solo" was asked on the old site (the answer was yes)
when i suggested (above) that someone could ask about the solo, i meant details like
"how did you get that tone and why don't you brag about it?" - but never mind! :E

Great. That's more than most artists do.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Bärs ()
Date: December 10, 2011 21:47

There's hardly anything originality in popular music, and least of all in blues based pop music. Everything is load of borrowing, influencing, cross-referencing and musical intertextuality. Some artists are simply better than other on putting the right pieces together.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Zack ()
Date: December 11, 2011 00:17

Sorry, I don't hear a resemblance between Sympathy for the Devil and Dear Mr. Fantasy at all. Love both songs and listened to each a million times.

How are they similar?

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: bustedtrousers ()
Date: December 11, 2011 00:42

I think it's Keith because he plays pretty much all the licks when he's messing around in the Sympathy movie. Like many others have said, the movie doesn't show him playing the final solo, but he damn near plays every lick that ends up in it. I think the film shows he was fully capable of playing the solo, so why wouldn't it be him?

Of course, with the Stones you can never know for sure.

I think Keith was really at the top of his game for the Beggars and Let It Bleed albums, when Brian was playing very little, and before Mick Taylor joined. He does some amazing stuff on Let It Bleed. The Monkey Man riff alone shows how great he was at that time.

But by 71 junk had taken over, and he was never the same. Thanks Keith.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Zack ()
Date: December 11, 2011 00:49

Well, Exile was pretty good . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-11 00:50 by Zack.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 11, 2011 02:44

Quote
Doxa
Quote
with sssoul
Quote
Doxa
I think they all seem to grant that the dramatical changes they did to the song were proposed by Miller.)

" ... I mean, Keith suggested that we do it in another rhythm, so that's how bands help you"
- Mick Jagger, 1995 (quoted on [www.timeisonourside.com] , along with a lot of other worthwhile statements from people who were there)

Thanks!

Hmm.. this is how memory makes tricks. I swear I remember reading Miller involvement in suggesting the rhythm change, even quoted by the band members, but I seem to be wrong. None of those quotes in timeisnomyside.com seem to suggest that, and the site usually covers quite extensively all the relevant quotes.

Anyway, who did the proposal is not the main point here. What I find interesting is the resemblance of "Dear Mr. Fantasy" and "Sympathy For The Devil", which is striking in the guitar solo department (but not only there!) and the fact that Jimmy Miller produced them both. There is a link I think it is not co-incidental. My theory of Miller suggesting the Traffic scheme to Jagger's folk song was just one way to count 'one plus one'...grinning smiley

Besides there needs to be reasons why Mick and Keith in the first place selected Jimmy Miller for their producer. They surely were heard some of his stuff to be sure of his abilities. And I guess listening to Traffic was surely one of those... It could be very well that Mick and Keith picked ideas straight from Traffic, as they did from The Velvet Underground, etc.

But all-over, I think co-work of Mick and Keith on one hand and Jimmy Miller on the other is one of those 'not so clear deals' in the history of the Stones. Some sources seems to belittle Miller's significance since Mick and Keith were the only real bosses on the studio, and Miller just helping them a bit here and there. But others seem to give more credit to Miller's contribution in shaping the 'golden era' albums.

- Doxa


The rhythm Keith suggested is a more flowing Dear Mr fantasy rhythm, taking it one step from Jaggers first Dylanesue version. The samba version came after that, and that was not Keiths suggestion.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: NICOS ()
Date: December 11, 2011 02:52

But all-over, I think co-work of Mick and Keith on one hand and Jimmy Miller on the other is one of those 'not so clear deals' in the history of the Stones. Some sources seems to belittle Miller's significance since Mick and Keith were the only real bosses on the studio, and Miller just helping them a bit here and there. But others seem to give more credit to Miller's contribution in shaping the 'golden era' albums.

My credit goes to Mr. Miller for the whole sound in their hay days Doxa

__________________________

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 11, 2011 02:55

Quote
bustedtrousers
The Monkey Man riff alone shows how great he was at that time.


Yes and it also shows how important Ry Cooder was.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-11 13:10 by Redhotcarpet.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: December 11, 2011 13:11

Dave Mason played bass on Dear Mr Fantasy, the guitar was played by Steve Winwood, but Steve doesn't seem to mind that folks think Mason played it...

[www.guitar.com]


Guitar.com: Do you ever get frustrated by the fact that many people assume that it's Dave Mason and not you playing guitar on the original recording of "Dear Mr. Fantasy"?

Winwood: I don't get frustrated, no.


Dave tells us himself that he played bass on the track...

[www.popmatters.com]

“He wanted to do ‘Dear Mr. Fantasy’ just the way we recorded it, which meant I would play bass and not guitar,” Mason said. “I played bass on about three songs back then and haven’t played it since.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: December 11, 2011 13:23

Regarding the really bright sound on Sympathy for the Devil, those Vox Supreme amps have what is called a Brilliant channel, it's really bright by design, in tandem with a touch of the inbuilt distortion and midax horns lets you have lots of ear piercing treble available.

I think he used the Vox Supreme for the solo, it's shown in One Plus One and the sound is easily achieved with that amp, but it could have been the 64' AC30 also shown in One Plus One or the Triumph Silicon 100 amp which he's shown using 1968 - 1969, they can sound similar to the Vox Supreme.

It's always possible that he didn't use his les Paul custom, perhaps he went with the Sonic Blue Telecaster they are shown using 1966 - 1968.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: howled ()
Date: December 11, 2011 15:38

I think Keith played the solo with that Black Les Paul of, his as in the studio video.

Strange about the solid state amp, I didn't know that but I did wonder about the trebly harsh sort of tone.

I think Charlie Watts suggested the samba rhythm.

If you think about it, a rhythm suggestion would most likely come from the drummer.

In the 2003 book According to the Rolling Stones, Charlie Watts said: "'Sympathy' was one of those sort of songs where we tried everything. The first time I ever heard the song was when Mick was playing it at the front door of a house I lived in in Sussex... He played it entirely on his own... and it was fantastic. We had a go at loads of different ways of playing it; in the end I just played a jazz Latin feel in the style of Kenny Clarke would have played on 'A Night in Tunisia' - not the actual rhythm he played, but the same styling."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-11 15:46 by howled.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Markdog ()
Date: December 11, 2011 16:55

the proof is here at 38 seconds....




Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: More Hot Rocks ()
Date: December 11, 2011 17:03

Quote
Markdog
the proof is here at 38 seconds....



Sounds like someone that never played guitar before trying to copy the solo.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Kirk ()
Date: December 11, 2011 17:23

[www.youtube.com]
I always liked the early pre-Beggar's stuff. The SFTD solo is no surprise to me. It's Keith all the way to my ears. Following this thread I kept on recreating this solo in my mind, and I came up with .... "You can't catch me". Just listen to Keith 1:45 - 2:05 and then again 3:05 appxtly when Jagger goes again into the 'you can't catch me..' chorus. It's all there. The starts and stops, the intervals, the speed , the attitude, even the tone.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Date: December 11, 2011 17:40

Quote
Markdog
the proof is here at 38 seconds....



The proof that he can't play a solo yet alone the solo for SFTD anymore you meant.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: theimposter ()
Date: December 11, 2011 19:04

The only comment I remember him making on it was from an interview (last year I believe) where he simply says (regarding the solo) "I don't even remember how I did that".

That's not an exact quote but that was basically it. I think if you listen to how similarly he plays it in the RNR Circus show, it's pretty clear it was him from the start.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: December 12, 2011 01:56

I dont know where this idea that Keith doesnt play the solo comes from. It's ridicolous. It's not one of those Hendrix solos, it's a very simple standard blues thing only with a very cool sound. It's good but not great. And yes, I hear now that it's clearly inspired by Traffic. The whole song. And yet it's their very own song.

Because like Bärs, and Ive said before, they are masters at picking up stuff, even stealing the way you do in the music business, screwing people even, but in a very productive way. And of course writing their own stuff. They are masters at producing the image of the greatest rock n roll band in the world and the soundtrack was produced - with the sometimes crucial help of others like it or not - from 1964-1982. Like all boy bands they werent scared of using the help they needed back in 1968 after the Monkeelike downfall of 1967. Miller helped them. Ry cooder gave more than he understood at the time, Gram, maybe Marianne and Anita, Nicky, Billy. Brian and Bill. Taylor. Ronnie. Maybe others. Still it's all labeled with Mick's toungue. Now that's how you do music business.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: rocker1 ()
Date: December 12, 2011 03:00

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
Sacke
Quote
Silver Dagger


It could easily be Dave Mason. Listen to the tone of his solo in Dear Mr Fantasy. Very similar. And it was Jimmy Miller who produced both of them.

Well, it was Steve Winwood on this one, not Dave Mason...

Absolutely not. Winwood does a great version of it now but the solo on the album version was played by Mason.

Well, Dave Mason himself has said that Steve Winwood played the solo on the Dear Mr. Fantasy studio track.

That settles it: Steve Winwood played the SFTD solo!

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: GravityBoy ()
Date: December 12, 2011 09:43

Quote
Markdog
the proof is here at 38 seconds....



I've always wanted to play guitar like Keith and now I can honestly say I do.

Re: Sympathy For The Devil Guitar Solo
Posted by: Justin ()
Date: December 12, 2011 10:15

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
Quote
gwen
Quote
71Tele
Why would anyone use a capo to play a solo?

Well, maybe someone who would like some more bite on his sound?



Thank you Gwen smiling smiley
High five


SO THERE TELE!!!!smoking smiley

Do any of you actually play guitar?

You can achieve the same solo without the capo. It does absolutely nothing for the solo but it has everything to do with the key of the song. Capos assist in making playing chords easier---not solos.

The Albert Collins clip does nothing to prove that the capo is there to help with his solo. If anything it gives us an idea what keys Albert preferred to sing in. From the various clips online we see that Albert's preferred range was between C and Eflat (frets 8 to 11). But his favorite seemed to be C. Anything between C and Eflat would be a pain in the ass to play play rhythm without a capo. The only advantage of having his capo on is when he's done soloing--he can play the chords as if he was playing in E. That's it.

Anything that involves "bite to his sound" is caused by two things: 1) Albert never used a pick: he used his fingers to pluck and strike the strings; this will most definitely create a sharper sound in any solo, 2) any solo between the 7th fret or higher will inevitably sound tighter as you go up higher on the neck--and that's all without the help of a capo.

A capo would not have helped Keith in the Sympathy solo.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-12 10:28 by Justin.

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