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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
It's hard to surpass perfection.

It's nonsense to use the qualification 'perfection' to music in the first place.

Not when I find them perfect.

I know it's an only-Keith-on-guitar album. Just perfect for you.

20 percent Taylor is nothing?!?

I think BB is even better, though, albeit more rough.

Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
It's hard to surpass perfection.

It's nonsense to use the qualification 'perfection' to music in the first place.

Not when I find them perfect.

I know it's an only-Keith-on-guitar album. Just perfect for you.

20 percent Taylor is nothing?!?

I think BB is even better, though, albeit more rough.

No 20% Taylor because of his modest part on one song, sorry two.

I prefer BB because its versions of the studio songs don't sound so flat to me. As for great songs an sich, both albums are on the same level to me.

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TeddyB1018
Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

+1

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
It's hard to surpass perfection.

It's nonsense to use the qualification 'perfection' to music in the first place.

Not when I find them perfect.

I know it's an only-Keith-on-guitar album. Just perfect for you.

20 percent Taylor is nothing?!?

I think BB is even better, though, albeit more rough.

No 20% Taylor because of his modest part on one song, sorry two.

I prefer BB because its versions of the studio songs don't sound so flat to me. As for great songs an sich, both albums are on the same level to me.

Modest? His contributions on both songs are vital, imo.

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TeddyB1018
Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

But there certainly is not a real third man on LIB.

The "third man"-thing is only symbolic, as long as the album sounds great and is filled with goodies from some of the best people around.

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DandelionPowderman
The "third man"-thing is only symbolic, as long as the album sounds great and is filled with goodies from some of the best people around.

Agreed. That's what the studio is for. It allows single guitarists to paint brilliant tapestries and as long as the results are good speculating what could have been different with different personnel is kind of pointless, imo.

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kleermaker

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TeddyB1018
Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

But there certainly is not a real third man on LIB.

this is just rhetoric. keith doesn't play on "moonlight mile" and i know you love it. MJ is barely on "happy" and it's a great tune. there is no Commandment of Stones that says you need to have a "real 3rd man" for great Stones music. i also think you're minimizing the importance of jimmy miller, charlie watts, nicky hopkins, bobby keys, and others.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 23:20 by Turner68.

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
The "third man"-thing is only symbolic, as long as the album sounds great and is filled with goodies from some of the best people around.

Agreed. That's what the studio is for. It allows single guitarists to paint brilliant tapestries and as long as the results are good speculating what could have been different with different personnel is kind of pointless, imo.

But I don't find the results that good as for LIB, compared to BB and SF (though I think all three have about the same amount of great songs on them), and I firmly believe it is due to the missing third man.

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kleermaker

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Naturalust

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DandelionPowderman
The "third man"-thing is only symbolic, as long as the album sounds great and is filled with goodies from some of the best people around.

Agreed. That's what the studio is for. It allows single guitarists to paint brilliant tapestries and as long as the results are good speculating what could have been different with different personnel is kind of pointless, imo.

But I don't find the results that good as for LIB, compared to BB and SF (though I think all three have about the same amount of great songs on them), and I firmly believe it is due to the missing third man.

what would a 3rd man have brought to the studio versions of Gimme Shelter or YCAGWYW? the harmonica in GS and the french horn in YCAGWYW, are exactly the sort of flourishes that brian had been bringing to the table. i don't know who was responsible on LIB, but there were fully formed and developed songs, not lacking any additional instruments or personnel in my opinion.

the main song where i feel you having a point is Midnight Rambler. it's flat in the studio version, and alive and electric in the live versions. i totally see what you mean there (although i think jagger's singing and the production are bigger factors than the lack of MT)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 23:28 by Turner68.

Perhaps the missing third man was actually a woman (Anita) and she was acting in magical ways as the muse we all kind of assume she was at the time. lol

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TeddyB1018
Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

I think you have misunderstood the third man principle... There could be 20 guest musicians contributing amazing things, but if, for example, George Harrison is hardly or not present on an entire Beatles album, it is going to be noticeable and felt.

It seems, atleast for two listeners in this thread, that is the case with Let It Bleed.

The 'third man' is a voice and influence that is particular to the band, not just any good musicians contributing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 23:47 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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TeddyB1018
Let it Bleed is my favorite rock album. There are "third voices" all over it. Nicky Hopkins, Bobby Keys, Al Kooper on YCAGWYW, Merry Clayton, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor. Even the hand percussion on the intro to Gimme Shelter. It's not merely a four piece band. It does mainly dispense with some of the exotic touches that were left on Beggars in favor of some country and the introduction of the saxophone.

I think you have misunderstood the third man principle... There could be 20 guest musicians contributing amazing things, but if, for example, George Harrison is hardly or not present on an entire Beatles album, it is going to be noticeable and felt.

It seems, atleast for two listeners in this thread, that is the case with Let It Bleed.

The 'third man' is a voice and influence that is particular to the band, not just any good musicians contributing.

i really don't understand this. are you saying that if charlie watts or ringo starr had been absent for most of an album their absence wouldn't have been noticeable and felt? bill wyman? jimmy miller or george martin even? this obsession with the guitarists being the "third man" seems to me to be cover for people who are concerned that the immense power of songs like GS or YCAGWYW takes away from Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. I just enjoy the music. They were all great musicians and contributors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 23:55 by Turner68.

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Turner68

i really don't understand this. are you saying that if charlie watts or ringo starr had been absent for most of an album their absence wouldn't have been noticeable and felt? bill wyman? jimmy miller or george martin even? this obsession with the guitarists being the "third man" seems to me to be cover for people who are concerned that the immense power of songs like GS or YCAGWYW takes away from Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. I just enjoy the music. They were all great musicians and contributors.

They most definitely would have been missed, but no need to comment on them in relation to Let It Bleed because they play on most of it.

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His Majesty

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Turner68

i really don't understand this. are you saying that if charlie watts or ringo starr had been absent for most of an album their absence wouldn't have been noticeable and felt? bill wyman? jimmy miller or george martin even? this obsession with the guitarists being the "third man" seems to me to be cover for people who are concerned that the immense power of songs like GS or YCAGWYW takes away from Brian Jones or Mick Taylor. I just enjoy the music. They were all great musicians and contributors.

They most definitely would have been missed, but no need to comment on them in relation to Let It Bleed because they play on most of it.

And yet the phrase is "third man".... It just seems like a contrived way of saying that it bothers someone when Keith is the only guitarist. It's ok to just say that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-13 00:08 by Turner68.

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Turner68

And yet the phrase is "third man".... It just seems like a contrived way of saying that it bothers someone when Keith is the only guitarist. It's ok to just say that.

The third man voice is heard plenty on TSMR without him even touching a guitar.

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His Majesty

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Turner68

And yet the phrase is "third man".... It just seems like a contrived way of saying that it bothers someone when Keith is the only guitarist. It's ok to just say that.

The third man voice is heard plenty on TSMR without him even touching a guitar.

bah! i knew you were going to do that, and yet you still know what i mean ;-)

here's my favorite take on the third man... one of the best movies ever made:





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-13 00:18 by Turner68.

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Turner68

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His Majesty

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Turner68

And yet the phrase is "third man".... It just seems like a contrived way of saying that it bothers someone when Keith is the only guitarist. It's ok to just say that.

The third man voice is heard plenty on TSMR without him even touching a guitar.

bah! i knew you were going to do that, and yet you still know what i mean ;-)

here's my favorite take on the third man... one of the best movies ever made:

And a good book as well, by Graham Greene of course. It's certainly proof of how important the influence of the third man actually is.

I was listening to Sticky Fingers today and it started me thinking about Mick Taylor's rhythm guitar playing.

I read a thread here about some of his rhythm playing being replaced on Ya Ya's and there is a school of thought that he was a poor rhythm player who just wanted to noodle.

However he plays good simple complimentary parts on Bitch, I Got The Blues and Moonlight Mile, CYHMK on SF, really funky playing on Hip Shake on Exile, Live With Me on LIB and HeartBreaker on Goats Head Soup. So it seems strange that he wasn't thought of as a "weaver".

Having said that his rhythm on Rocks Off (buried in the Nicky Hopkins tapes) is pretty bland and his playing on some live versions on older Stones tunes like Under My Thumbs is pretty boring.

Maybe he wasn't given the chance to develop much as a rhythm player due to Keith's dominance in the studio on Exile?

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FP
I was listening to Sticky Fingers today and it started me thinking about Mick Taylor's rhythm guitar playing.

I read a thread here about some of his rhythm playing being replaced on Ya Ya's and there is a school of thought that he was a poor rhythm player who just wanted to noodle.

However he plays good simple complimentary parts on Bitch, I Got The Blues and Moonlight Mile, CYHMK on SF, really funky playing on Hip Shake on Exile, Live With Me on LIB and HeartBreaker on Goats Head Soup. So it seems strange that he wasn't thought of as a "weaver".

Having said that his rhythm on Rocks Off (buried in the Nicky Hopkins tapes) is pretty bland and his playing on some live versions on older Stones tunes like Under My Thumbs is pretty boring.

Maybe he wasn't given the chance to develop much as a rhythm player due to Keith's dominance in the studio on Exile?

Good points. I suppose, since Keith was a songwriter, band leader and world-famous rhythm guitar player, there wasn't all that much room for Mick T to play substantial rhythm guitar parts. It was easier to play lead "on top" of it, especially since he did that so well. Sadly it was Keith's heroin addiction that opened up more space for Taylor to play, at least for a while.

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FP
I was listening to Sticky Fingers today and it started me thinking about Mick Taylor's rhythm guitar playing.

I read a thread here about some of his rhythm playing being replaced on Ya Ya's and there is a school of thought that he was a poor rhythm player who just wanted to noodle.

However he plays good simple complimentary parts on Bitch, I Got The Blues and Moonlight Mile, CYHMK on SF, really funky playing on Hip Shake on Exile, Live With Me on LIB and HeartBreaker on Goats Head Soup. So it seems strange that he wasn't thought of as a "weaver".

Having said that his rhythm on Rocks Off (buried in the Nicky Hopkins tapes) is pretty bland and his playing on some live versions on older Stones tunes like Under My Thumbs is pretty boring.

Maybe he wasn't given the chance to develop much as a rhythm player due to Keith's dominance in the studio on Exile?

It's not easy to play with Keith, let alone to weave with him. Therefore, I believe Taylor chose to do one or the other: simple strumming or noodling.

A good example of weaving between Keith and Taylor is indeed their playing on I Got The Blues.

IMO, his licks on Moonlight Mile are lead guitar all the way, not rhythm guitar. Same on Rocks Off (The Hopkins Tapes). He's the only guitar player on Heartbreaker, so there he had more room.

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DandelionPowderman

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FP
I was listening to Sticky Fingers today and it started me thinking about Mick Taylor's rhythm guitar playing.

I read a thread here about some of his rhythm playing being replaced on Ya Ya's and there is a school of thought that he was a poor rhythm player who just wanted to noodle.

However he plays good simple complimentary parts on Bitch, I Got The Blues and Moonlight Mile, CYHMK on SF, really funky playing on Hip Shake on Exile, Live With Me on LIB and HeartBreaker on Goats Head Soup. So it seems strange that he wasn't thought of as a "weaver".

Having said that his rhythm on Rocks Off (buried in the Nicky Hopkins tapes) is pretty bland and his playing on some live versions on older Stones tunes like Under My Thumbs is pretty boring.

Maybe he wasn't given the chance to develop much as a rhythm player due to Keith's dominance in the studio on Exile?

It's not easy to play with Keith, let alone to weave with him. Therefore, I believe Taylor chose to do one or the other: simple strumming or noodling.

A good example of weaving between Keith and Taylor is indeed their playing on I Got The Blues.

IMO, his licks on Moonlight Mile are lead guitar all the way, not rhythm guitar. Same on Rocks Off (The Hopkins Tapes). He's the only guitar player on Heartbreaker, so there he had more room.

True, my friend.

I think that there was a good musical interaction betweem Keith and Mick. Their stylistic differences were a positive aspect of the band at the time. Also in those years there was a different way of playing , a different approach about the concerts and performances . Somehow all the groups playing the same way once took the stage . I think that what has changed during the mid-seventies . All this reinforces the idea that Mick Taylor was the right man at the right time . Another great example of exchanges between the two is Casino Boogie (where Keith played also a slide part) or Soul Survivor (a very very fresh song, with a great slide work by MT),

MT certainly is not (only) a rhythm guitarist, but I think this definition is reductive. It is definitely a complete guitarist. At the time, when he entered the group, no one told him what to play (because of the different approach cited previously). I think MT, from this point of view, has been one of the most versatile guitarists in rock.

... and I am one who consider Wood most suitable for this role of guitarist with Keith.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-27 14:47 by pepganzo.

Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

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FP
Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

i think that when keith was in the zone, he knew exactly what he wanted to hear on the record, and it's usually easier to play something yourself than tell someone else what to do (plus that's often insulting to the other musician.)

i wonder if he developed this habit while working on let it bleed, and he just got used to overdubbing is own guitar parts one on top of the other. you can see how it would be a very productive way to work. we certainly can't argue with the results - unless you want to make the argument that it is what drove MT out of the band, which of course was a bad thing.

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Turner68

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FP
Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

i think that when keith was in the zone, he knew exactly what he wanted to hear on the record, and it's usually easier to play something yourself than tell someone else what to do (plus that's often insulting to the other musician.)

i wonder if he developed this habit while working on let it bleed, and he just got used to overdubbing is own guitar parts one on top of the other. you can see how it would be a very productive way to work. we certainly can't argue with the results - unless you want to make the argument that it is what drove MT out of the band, which of course was a bad thing.

I doubt that, as Taylor got increasingly more space on the two last albums he played on.

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DandelionPowderman

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Turner68

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FP
Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

i think that when keith was in the zone, he knew exactly what he wanted to hear on the record, and it's usually easier to play something yourself than tell someone else what to do (plus that's often insulting to the other musician.)

i wonder if he developed this habit while working on let it bleed, and he just got used to overdubbing is own guitar parts one on top of the other. you can see how it would be a very productive way to work. we certainly can't argue with the results - unless you want to make the argument that it is what drove MT out of the band, which of course was a bad thing.

I doubt that, as Taylor got increasingly more space on the two last albums he played on.

Not on IORR, except Time Waits For No One. As has been said the alternate version of Dance Little Sister has more Taylor on it (and it is better as well):

[www.youtube.com]

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Turner68

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FP
Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

i think that when keith was in the zone, he knew exactly what he wanted to hear on the record, and it's usually easier to play something yourself than tell someone else what to do (plus that's often insulting to the other musician.)

i wonder if he developed this habit while working on let it bleed, and he just got used to overdubbing is own guitar parts one on top of the other. you can see how it would be a very productive way to work. we certainly can't argue with the results - unless you want to make the argument that it is what drove MT out of the band, which of course was a bad thing.

I doubt that, as Taylor got increasingly more space on the two last albums he played on.

Not on IORR, except Time Waits For No One. As has been said the alternate version of Dance Little Sister has more Taylor on it (and it is better as well):

[www.youtube.com]

Definitely on IORR, too.

IYCRM
TWFNO
DLS
IYRWTBMF
FF

All feature a prominent Taylor. He's pretty important to TTNG as well, the Stones song he hoped to get songwriting credits for.

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DandelionPowderman

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman

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Turner68

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FP
Doesn't MT only play the solo at the end of Casino Boogie? Soul Survivor is interesting because it is a pretty simple part for MT to play, but it shows that he could keep it straight forward and serve the song rather than just riffing.

I always find it odd that he gets a credit on Ventilator Blues when I heard he only plays the solo again on it!

I suspect some of the lack of Taylor guitar on Exile is down to the working methods. If Keith stayed up all night overdubbing guitars there probably wasn't much left for MT to do.

i think that when keith was in the zone, he knew exactly what he wanted to hear on the record, and it's usually easier to play something yourself than tell someone else what to do (plus that's often insulting to the other musician.)

i wonder if he developed this habit while working on let it bleed, and he just got used to overdubbing is own guitar parts one on top of the other. you can see how it would be a very productive way to work. we certainly can't argue with the results - unless you want to make the argument that it is what drove MT out of the band, which of course was a bad thing.

I doubt that, as Taylor got increasingly more space on the two last albums he played on.

Not on IORR, except Time Waits For No One. As has been said the alternate version of Dance Little Sister has more Taylor on it (and it is better as well):

[www.youtube.com]

Definitely on IORR, too.

IYCRM
TWFNO
DLS
IYRWTBMF
FF

All feature a prominent Taylor. He's pretty important to TTNG as well, the Stones song he hoped to get songwriting credits for.

Disagree. On IYCRM he is buried in the mix and even absent in the last part of the song; on Friend he plays just a nice solo, nothing special or dominant; on FF he only plays bass (that it's done very well has nothing to do with his appreance on IORR. So absolutely not on IORR, certainly not if compared to GHS.

You can disagree, but he still got lots of room on IORR.

"Only bass". What does that mean?