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Turner68
It's great to see this Kleermaker.

There is a strange phenomena of "creeping credit" among stones fans where Brian seems to get less and less credit and others (ahem) more and more.

One of the worst examples was a couple months ago a knowledgeable poster categorized YCAGWYW (which Brian plays on) as a Taylor song (Taylor of course doesn't play on it) and got upset when I called him on it.

I think BB should be considered an album with Brian in the band and contributing and accorded as much or more credit than say Wyman.

Brian doesn't play on the studio version of YCAGWYW. He, supposedly, lay on his belly reading about botany during the initial session.

Beggars Banquet is 100% part of the Brian era.

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His Majesty

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Turner68
It's great to see this Kleermaker.

There is a strange phenomena of "creeping credit" among stones fans where Brian seems to get less and less credit and others (ahem) more and more.

One of the worst examples was a couple months ago a knowledgeable poster categorized YCAGWYW (which Brian plays on) as a Taylor song (Taylor of course doesn't play on it) and got upset when I called him on it.

I think BB should be considered an album with Brian in the band and contributing and accorded as much or more credit than say Wyman.

Brian doesn't play on the studio version of YCAGWYW. He, supposedly, lay on his belly reading about botany during the initial session.

Beggars Banquet is 100% part of the Brian era.

you're right of course about YCAGWYW, it was midnight rambler i was thinking of.

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Turner68
just found this blurb on MT on the rolling stones' official site:

[www.rollingstones.com]

it seems very balanced.

Struggling with lifestyle issues, angered over what he saw as deprivation of composition right, uncomfortable with strained relationships between other members, he took his leave. “Nobody leaves the Rolling Stones!” declared fellow band members; but Mick was gone.

“To ask if I regret leaving The Rolling Stones is to ask the wrong question”, he notes. “The hard one to answer is, do I regret joining them?”

Since leaving, despite intermittent effort to reactivate a career around what was undoubtedly a magical talent, Mick Taylor has never achieved anything like the commercial, or creative success that he contributed to in the early seventies when he was a Stone.

What’s also an interesting question is, “Have The Rolling Stones ever been as good as they were when Mick Taylor was in the band?”

Musically, NO.

But, it is a mixture of things. Jimmy Miller gone, creativity level deteriorating, Keith on drugs, 10+ years in the business leads to less desire, fame, high society life etc.....

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Turner68
just found this blurb on MT on the rolling stones' official site:

[www.rollingstones.com]

it seems very balanced.

Struggling with lifestyle issues, angered over what he saw as deprivation of composition right, uncomfortable with strained relationships between other members, he took his leave. “Nobody leaves the Rolling Stones!” declared fellow band members; but Mick was gone.

“To ask if I regret leaving The Rolling Stones is to ask the wrong question”, he notes. “The hard one to answer is, do I regret joining them?”

Since leaving, despite intermittent effort to reactivate a career around what was undoubtedly a magical talent, Mick Taylor has never achieved anything like the commercial, or creative success that he contributed to in the early seventies when he was a Stone.

What’s also an interesting question is, “Have The Rolling Stones ever been as good as they were when Mick Taylor was in the band?”

I'm amazed that this question is posed on the Stones' official site.

.....

Olly.

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Olly

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Turner68
just found this blurb on MT on the rolling stones' official site:

[www.rollingstones.com]

it seems very balanced.

Struggling with lifestyle issues, angered over what he saw as deprivation of composition right, uncomfortable with strained relationships between other members, he took his leave. “Nobody leaves the Rolling Stones!” declared fellow band members; but Mick was gone.

“To ask if I regret leaving The Rolling Stones is to ask the wrong question”, he notes. “The hard one to answer is, do I regret joining them?”

Since leaving, despite intermittent effort to reactivate a career around what was undoubtedly a magical talent, Mick Taylor has never achieved anything like the commercial, or creative success that he contributed to in the early seventies when he was a Stone.

What’s also an interesting question is, “Have The Rolling Stones ever been as good as they were when Mick Taylor was in the band?”

I'm amazed that this question is posed on the Stones' official site.

I'm not. It's perfectly valid.

What’s also an interesting question is, “Have The Rolling Stones ever been as good as they were when Mick Taylor was in the band?”

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LuxuryStones

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Olly

I'm amazed that this question is posed on the Stones' official site.

I'm not. It's perfectly valid.

If they only gave us a place to answer it on that site!

Well, the answer is that they were better before he was in the band, but they were worse after he left.

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LuxuryStones

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Olly

I'm amazed that this question is posed on the Stones' official site.

I'm not. It's perfectly valid.

I don't question whether or not one subjectively believes it to be valid.

I maintain that it is surprising to see on the site: the Stones are a dynamic, forward-facing business. The question posed is just that, and remains unanswered, notice.

I think the unwritten answer from the Stones, or at least the one they would publish on their website, would be a resounding 'Yes: right now.'

.....

Olly.

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His Majesty
Well, the answer is that they were better before he was in the band, but they were worse after he left.

Nice to see you here HM. Hardly anyone left to stick up for Brian in your absence.

Olly, fyi, Mick has mentioned in an interview that he thinks their best music was made with Taylor, Charlie has inferred it as well, so perhaps even the Stones are split on the issue. Some have suggested it was just because of Mick and Keith being at their songwriting peak but I think the live recordings with Taylor paint a slightly clearer picture.

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Naturalust

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His Majesty
Well, the answer is that they were better before he was in the band, but they were worse after he left.

Nice to see you here HM. Hardly anyone left to stick up for Brian in your absence.

That sentence of mine isn't just about Brian though.

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His Majesty

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kleermaker


By Sympathy For The D, yes indeed. But our old friend His Majesty has once convincingly argued that Brian Jones had a substantial participation in BB and that BB and LIB are absolutely not on the same line in that respect. His argument is convincingly sustained by N. Zentgraf's info:

Line-up ‘Sympathy For The Devil’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass, bvoc)/BJ (bvoc)/BW
(maracas, bvoc)/CW (dr, bvoc)/Nicky Hopkins (p, bvoc)/Anita Pallenberg
(bvoc)/Marianne Faithfull (bvoc)/Rocky Dijon (congas)
Line-up ‘No Expectations’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (perc)/
Nicky Hopkins (p)
Line-up ‘Dear Doctor’: MJ (voc, tamb)/KR (gtr, bvoc)/BW (bass)/BJ (harm)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (tack p)/Dave Mason (gtr)
Line-up ‘Parachute Woman’: MJ (voc, harm)/KR (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (dr)/BJ (harm)
Line-up ‘Jig-Saw Puzzle’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (mellotron)/BW (bass, synth)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)
Line-up ‘Street Fighting Man’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, bass)/BJ (sitar, tamboura)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)/Dave Mason (shehnai, bass dr)
Line-up ‘Prodigal Son’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (harm)/CW (dr)
Line-up ‘Stray Cat Blues’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BJ (mellotron)/BW (bass)/
CW (dr)/Nicky Hopkins (p)/Rocky Dijon (congas)
Line-up ‘Factory Girl’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr)/BW (bass)/CW (perc)/Rocky Dijon
(congas)/Dave Mason (mandolin)/Rick Grech (fiddle)
Line-up ‘Salt Of The Earth’: MJ (voc)/KR (gtr, voc)/BW (bass)/CW (dr)/Nicky
Hopkins (p)/Watts Street Gospel Choir (bvoc)

So quite some imput from Brain on BB, notably on the most beautiful song of the album, No Expectations (btw: one of MT's favourite songs, and rightly so, thanks to BJ, for a big part).

Bill plays bass on 7/10 songs whereas Brian is credited for guitar/sitar just on two tracks.The rest is mainly harp...I wouldn't call that substantial.

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shortfatfanny


Bill plays bass on 7/10 songs whereas Brian is credited for guitar/sitar just on two tracks.The rest is mainly harp...I wouldn't call that substantial.

Racist against harmonicas, eh!? He 'only' played harmonica on both sides of their debut single.

The main point is that his presence and distinctive musicianship is felt and heard on Beggars Banquet and the related single and outtakes. Child Of The Moon, Still A Fool.

The slide on No Expectations is a highlight, the harmonica on Dear Doctor is quite clear and adds to the track, the mellotron flute on Jigsaw Puzzle is distinctive, the sitar/tamboura on SFM gives the track an otherness.

With Let It Bleed his two contributions lack distinction and essentially could have been by anyone. Let It Bleed is an album without a distinctive third man voice.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 02:22 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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shortfatfanny


Bill plays bass on 7/10 songs whereas Brian is credited for guitar/sitar just on two tracks.The rest is mainly harp...I wouldn't call that substantial.

Racist against harmonicas, eh!? He 'only' played harmonica on both sides of their debut single.

The main point is that his presence and distinctive musicianship is felt and heard on
Beggars Banquet and the related single and outtakes. Child Of The Moon, Still A Fool.


The slide on No Expectations is a highlight, the harmonica on Dear Doctor is quite clear and adds to the track, the mellotron flute on Jigsaw Puzzle is distinctive, the sitar/tamboura on SFM gives the track an otherness.

With Let It Bleed his two contributions lack distinction and essentially could have been by anyone.

No Expectations and SFM are fantastic as Brians contributions on both tracks are for sure.
And the harmonicas...well,ok.
Concerning his presence and basically his core instrument,the guitar,I wonder why it's not prominent on BB.
Either he wasn't able to play or he had been told to play...harmonicas,mainly.
I love harmonicas,especially Brian playing them.

Seems to be by choice, but I speculate that he might have began to wonder why bother as Keith started to overdub 3 or 4 guitars even when Brian played guitar on some 1965/1966 tracks.

Brian didn't play any guitar on TSMR.

To bring it back to Taylor, he seems to have suffered from Keith wanting to overdub lots of guitar to the detriment of his own in the studio too.

Maybe because Keith was more proficient at guitar than anyone else in the band while Brian was more proficient at harp than anyone else in the band? Having said that, Brian's slide on No Expectations is killer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 03:18 by terraplane.

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His Majesty
Well, the answer is that they were better before he was in the band, but they were worse after he left.

so true.

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His Majesty
Seems to be by choice, but I speculate that he might have began to wonder why bother as Keith started to overdub 3 or 4 guitars even when Brian played guitar on some 1965/1966 tracks.

Brian didn't play any guitar on TSMR.

To bring it back to Taylor, he seems to have suffered from Keith wanting to overdub lots of guitar to the detriment of his own in the studio too.

Seems like Keith had some kind of control in the studio as early as 65/66 then? Do you think it was Brian was more interested in going out partying like a rock star where Keith was more diligent to stay in the studio for long hours to work the songs into his vision of perfection? Do you think Brian was around when Keith was doing the overdubs? Just curious why the "leader" of the band in 1965/66 didn't have more say or control over what guitar parts were being laid down. Did he lose interest in the guitar that early? thx.

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Naturalust

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His Majesty
Seems to be by choice, but I speculate that he might have began to wonder why bother as Keith started to overdub 3 or 4 guitars even when Brian played guitar on some 1965/1966 tracks.

Brian didn't play any guitar on TSMR.

To bring it back to Taylor, he seems to have suffered from Keith wanting to overdub lots of guitar to the detriment of his own in the studio too.

Seems like Keith had some kind of control in the studio as early as 65/66 then? Do you think it was Brian was more interested in going out partying like a rock star where Keith was more diligent to stay in the studio for long hours to work the songs into his vision of perfection? Do you think Brian was around when Keith was doing the overdubs? Just curious why the "leader" of the band in 1965/66 didn't have more say or control over what guitar parts were being laid down. Did he lose interest in the guitar that early? thx.

i don't think he was the leader in 65/66. it all changed by the time of satisfaction.

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Naturalust

Seems like Keith had some kind of control in the studio as early as 65/66 then? Do you think it was Brian was more interested in going out partying like a rock star where Keith was more diligent to stay in the studio for long hours to work the songs into his vision of perfection? Do you think Brian was around when Keith was doing the overdubs? Just curious why the "leader" of the band in 1965/66 didn't have more say or control over what guitar parts were being laid down. Did he lose interest in the guitar that early? thx.

I'm just typing out loud and speculating if there's an element of was Brian kinda pushed or did he jump? with regards to playing guitar in studio. The Taylor years show Keith wiping Taylor parts or Taylor being mixed low or out for some tracks. Might be musically justified, but it must have grated.

So, is the Brian supposedly losing interest in guitar possibly partly down to "what's the point?" as Keith will overdub more guitars anyway etc.

Did Keith become overly bossy or protective of the guitar department? Does the tracks on Aftermath with 4 or 5 guitars really need that many guitars?

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His Majesty

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Naturalust

Seems like Keith had some kind of control in the studio as early as 65/66 then? Do you think it was Brian was more interested in going out partying like a rock star where Keith was more diligent to stay in the studio for long hours to work the songs into his vision of perfection? Do you think Brian was around when Keith was doing the overdubs? Just curious why the "leader" of the band in 1965/66 didn't have more say or control over what guitar parts were being laid down. Did he lose interest in the guitar that early? thx.

I'm just typing out loud and speculating if there's an element of was Brian kinda pushed or did he jump? with regards to playing guitar in studio. The Taylor years show Keith wiping Taylor parts or Taylor being mixed low or out for some tracks. Might be musically justified, but it must have grated.

So, is the Brian supposedly losing interest in guitar possibly partly down to "what's the point?" as Keith will overdub more guitars anyway etc.

Did Keith become overly bossy or protective of the guitar department? Does the tracks on Aftermath with 4 or 5 guitars really need that many guitars?

Keith said in interviews (round Life...) that Brian started losing interest in playing the guitar, and that Aftermath was the first album where that became evident.

He said something like «I had to do lots of more work in the studio».

My thesis is that after Keith found his signature sound, Andrew and all the people around the record-making process, demanded more Keith in the mix.

At what stage did Brian damage his hand and have to take a break from guitar playing?

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Green Lady
At what stage did Brian damage his hand and have to take a break from guitar playing?

Right before the September 1966 UK tour, but he was given the ok and played guitar.

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DandelionPowderman

Keith said in interviews (round Life...) that Brian started losing interest in playing the guitar, and that Aftermath was the first album where that became evident.

He said something like «I had to do lots of more work in the studio».

I'd counter that with the fact that on their first single Brian played harmonica and sang and by offering my opinion that keith was already kinda overplaying and dominating the guitars by their 2nd album, Rolling Stones No.2.

On Aftermath i'd say he didn't have to overdub so many guitars, but that he wanted to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 13:56 by His Majesty.

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Olly

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LuxuryStones

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Olly

I'm amazed that this question is posed on the Stones' official site.

I'm not. It's perfectly valid.

I don't question whether or not one subjectively believes it to be valid.

I maintain that it is surprising to see on the site: the Stones are a dynamic, forward-facing business. The question posed is just that, and remains unanswered, notice.

I think the unwritten answer from the Stones, or at least the one they would publish on their website, would be a resounding 'Yes: right now.'

Do you mean compared to their current efforts, or even what they played with Taylor's guest spot on the last tour with the Stones?

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

Keith said in interviews (round Life...) that Brian started losing interest in playing the guitar, and that Aftermath was the first album where that became evident.

He said something like «I had to do lots of more work in the studio».

I'd counter that with the fact that on their first single Brian played harmonica and sang and by offering my opinion that keith was already kinda overplaying and dominating the guitars by their 2nd album, Rolling Stones No.2.

On Aftermath i'd say he didn't have to overdub so many guitars, but that he wanted to.

That might be correct, but I guess we'll never know.

I'm not so sure about Keith calling the shots on their second album already, though.

Brian is pretty prominent in the mix on I Can't Be Satisfied, Off The Hook, Grown Up Wrong and What A Shame?

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Turner68


One of the worst examples was a couple months ago a knowledgeable poster categorized YCAGWYW (which Brian plays on) as a Taylor song (Taylor of course doesn't play on it) and got upset when I called him on it.

The story is not that simple. Both BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED albums were basically done by a studio band, like SATANIC MAJESTIES (The Stones 1967 to 1969 were like the Beatles in that sense). The songs were created as studio masterpieces, to the aims of their own, and no time and energy was spared to get the perfect results.

But when the band hit back to road in 1969, they needed to rearrange the songs to fit to the needs of a two guitar rock and roll band. Mick Taylor had a huge role there. The world was then get to know that the BEGGARS/BLEED material like two incarnations: the original studio ones and the live versions (the ones Keith used to call "road versions"), especially established in GET YER YA-YA'S OUT!. For some songs - "Midnight Rambler", "Love In Vain" - the live treatment bring out features that are essential to the way we know these songs today.

So now to think what Taylor did back then to the songs was adding there features the songs didn't even have in the originals. One could even say that that he wrote there new parts (since he was not just copying some already written parts). When Wood replaced him, he basically followed Taylor's footsteps. Think of "Rambler", "Gimme Shelter", "Can't Always Get What You Want", etc. So in the the bigger scheme of things, Taylor contributed to the story of these songs, despite not being in the original studio versions. If we keep that in mind (that of Taylor having a heavy hand when these songs were brought to live) I don't think it is too far reached to call these songs "Taylor songs" (I wouldn't though).

I don't think this has anything to do with belittlening Brian Jones's significance to The Rolling Stones, but more that of acknowledging Taylor's contribution (which still seem to be a hard task for some of the folks here). There isn't any Taylor vs. Jones issue really.

- Doxa

«Live versions arranged with Taylor» might be a more correct description, Doxa?

Because I reckon most of the old fans, growing up with Aftermath, BTB, BB and LIB would think of them as Brian era-songs. So would I, for that matter, since the songs on those albums are iconic. The live versions have been different through the years, but that's part of the charm with the Stones.

For instance, up till the 1989 tour the live versions of JJF had been different for every tour



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-08-12 14:19 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

That might be correct, but I guess we'll never know.

I'm not so sure about Keith calling the shots on their second album already, though.

Brian is pretty prominent in the mix on I Can't Be Satisfied, Off The Hook, Grown Up Wrong and What A Shame?

Not so much calling the shots, just taking up sound space. Brians rhythm part on grown Up Wrong is in the background, not sure what he plays on What A Shame. Both tracks get mistakenly id'd as having him play slide, but there is no slide on them.

There's more suggestions of Keith dominating and giving himself more work by choice when one could argue there was no need for him to do so, that being playing bass.

So perhaps a general scenario of offer something that Keith couldn't do himself developed and in addition to other stuff this could help explain why Brian may have "lost interest in playing guitar".

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

That might be correct, but I guess we'll never know.

I'm not so sure about Keith calling the shots on their second album already, though.

Brian is pretty prominent in the mix on I Can't Be Satisfied, Off The Hook, Grown Up Wrong and What A Shame?

Not so much calling the shots, just taking up sound space. Brians rhythm part on grown Up Wrong is in the background, not sure what he plays on What A Shame. Both tracks get mistakenly id'd as having him play slide, but there is no slide on them.

There's more suggestions of Keith dominating and giving himself more work by choice when one could argue there was no need for him to do so, that being playing bass.

So perhaps a general scenario of offer something that Keith couldn't do himself developed and in addition to other stuff this could help explain why Brian may have "lost interest in playing guitar".

Might also be that Keith needed more space than Brian to do good guitar parts for a song?

Brian plays the slide on Grown Up Wrong, doesn't he? That's pretty up in the mix.

I always assumed that Brian plays the other guitar (not the vibrato-one) on What A Shame, but I could be wrong.

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Doxa
If we keep that in mind (that of Taylor having a heavy hand when these songs were brought to live) I don't think it is too far reached to call these songs "Taylor songs" (I wouldn't though).

There is no such thing as a "Taylor-song". Contributing a solo makes it not "his song". In no way. Taylor was a soldier, some times a good one, but nothing but a soldier - until he deserted.