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DandelionPowdermanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
The only thing I know is that Taylor said it was a Jagger song
But do you take that mean that everything ever written in that song comes comes from Mick Jagger and from no one else, including the riff Keith Richards vaguesly remeber having written?
- Doxa
Most likely everything that was written was written by Jagger, perhaps with some arrangement exceptions. They might have used Keith's little part as well.
Taylor's contribution is brilliant, but not necessarily something you would "write" per se - more like something a great improviser would add - someone with a very musical mind.
I don't know why this view is so controversial for you. For me, it is common sense, very much in line with how the Stones have worked - before and after MM...
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His Majesty
At the very least I think hearing Taylor play at sessions, rehearsals and in concert influenced Jagger whilst writing the song. I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody, but of course this doesn't mean that Taylor has to have had some intentional direct influence on it or that Jagger has to have used anything specifically played by Taylor.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
Moonlight Mile sounds like Jagger channelling some Taylor like approach to melody. There's Keith influence in there as well regardless of the japanese thing. That influence is one of the classic syncopated Keith rhythms that appears in many of their original songs.
dum dum dadumdummm, dadada dum dum dadumdumm etc.
It's utilised in Moonlight Mile, but also experimented with by having it wrap around and go with the flow of the implied time signature of the main vocal melody.
So whether Keith or Taylor helped write it isn't so important because they are in the essentials of the music via Jagger and it is to Jaggers credit that he can bring those things together in such a concise and unique sounding way.
The Rolling Stones aka The Melody and Rhythm Kings.
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DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
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DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
According to Mick he started writing songs on his own already in 1967.
Maybe I should wait until we are at "S", but I have never heard that keith was involved in Sway.
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His Majesty
At the very least I think hearing Taylor play at sessions, rehearsals and in concert influenced Jagger whilst writing the song. I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody, but of course this doesn't mean that Taylor has to have had some intentional direct influence on it or that Jagger has to have used anything specifically played by Taylor.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
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Doxa
So altogether, even though I can't say did Taylor contribute enough to earn a credit, I am rather positive that without him "Moonlight Mile" would have sounded essentially different without his 'intervention'. And the point is not that 'yes, without that violin section as well', since the latter was clearly added afterwards, and belong clearly to the region of 'arrangement'. I take Taylor's contribution being more substantial. There is so much Taylorian lyrical touch and finesse in the song, that I can't think Jagger could have achieved the incredible result without Taylor 'sparring' him.
- Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
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His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
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bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
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DandelionPowdermanQuote
bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
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DoxaQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
"Some of the fusion stuff" it is for Woodists here, but the maestro himslef gives a nice description of "Taylorism" in the page six in this thread.
- Doxa
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His Majesty
Time for some time travelling investigative listening.
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OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
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OpenG
DP - MM is a great studio performance but I think there best studio song is Winter again the stones sounding magical without Keith. MT's playing helps Jagger with his singing and with the melody same can be said with songs like 100 Years Ago and TWFNO again MT's helps jagger with the melody and especially with 100 years Ago jagger is singing in a different style as they take chances. Also on Hide Your Love - jaggers vocal delivery is just great. So with MT presence they do stuff outside the box and do not sound like Keith's idea of how the stones should sound
play the guitar boy
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OpenG
The rolling stones of course will always be the SOUND of Keith's guitar and Charlies drumming the two constant sounds of the stones the last 50 years. But when they choose MT and put him in the band - they really went to another level they never achieved since he LEFT. Look what he did on CYHMK - he took the band to that level again during his two song GIGS with the US tour in 2013.
play the guitar boy
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OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
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His MajestyQuote
OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
It isn't better than Ruby Tuesday. ><
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DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
You are the most loyal 'official truth' disciple in this forum, Dandie. The use of that infamous term "inspired by" ices the cake (the term even Ron Wood makes fun about)... I don't think there is much difference in what His Majesty says than what I do. Both him and I hear Taylor's influence there, but we much leave the door open how much and how exactly did he contribute (did you notice he starting his post by "at the very least.."). But for you there seem to be some sort of certain knowledge that 'no way Taylor can have any contribution there, no way!". The argument is as follows: where are all his all contemplete great songs? -> no way he can add/influence any melodic ideas to any Rolling Stones (= Jagger/Richards) song.
This is not about song-writing credits per se - but who actually contributed to that magnificient Rolling Stones song. So no need to be so defensive about the rightness of Jagger/Richards credition. Even I haven't doubted the latter.
- Doxa