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Mathijs

but but but -there's nothing 'Japanese' about that riff. That riff is a fairly straightforward minor riff in open G, and according to Taylor that was his.

It's major as is the main vocal melody.

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Mathijs

The 'eastern' sounding bits are the string section over that minor open G riff, and Taylor's rephrasing of the main riff starting at 4:30. He starts the notes with up-bends, and that makes it a bit 'Japanese' (if you don't know Japanese music, that is).

Mathijs

No bends mr.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 17:05 by His Majesty.

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Mathijs

but but but -there's nothing 'Japanese' about that riff. That riff is a fairly straightforward minor riff in open G, and according to Taylor that was his.

The 'eastern' sounding bits are the string section over that minor open G riff, and Taylor's rephrasing of the main riff starting at 4:30. He starts the notes with up-bends, and that makes it a bit 'Japanese' (if you don't know Japanese music, that is).

Mathijs

Hmm... That interpretation makes at least the quotes by Taylor and Richards more comprehensible and coher with each other. Taylor refers to the stuff that begins at 3:32 and Richards to the one at 4:30. If the latter is the infamous "Japanese Thing" (the stuff Richards haved made a tape), I can easily see that it might have inspired the rest (Micks) to write a song over it. To my ears the 'eastern' feeling the song has goes throughout the song (especially in the beautiful main melody and riff).

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 17:02 by Doxa.

It is in major, indeed.

We don't know how it sounded.

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
Here you go, kleerie.

The riff Keith said he had been playing, before MM was developed, starts at 3:32

O well, and he thinks he rightly deserves songwriting credit for that. He's a funny guy indeed. The Japanese thing ....

yeah, if that would be the case, Jagger would be right when he said "adding a few licks won't make you a song-writer", as he commented - probably about only time these credition claims - around the time Taylor left... Like you, I don't think only this can be the only thing Taylor has in his mind here...

- Doxa

If that part, the ethereal section after the big climax riff, is classed as the Japanese thing all it really is is an implied version of the main vocal melody. I doubt that Keith played it as Taylor does there, what Taylor is doing is essentially implying the vocal melody and improvising things further.

Great stuff of course! I agree with the Ruby/Jones - Taylor/Moonlight comparison.

I can't help thinking keith means the more obvious riff part that gets played before that ethereal section though and if that is Keith's thing then the writer of the main magical melody sang by Jagger and later improvised upon by Taylor is up in the air.

Both main melody of the song and that climax riff has implied eastern elements to them.

I personally think it went like this...

Keith had that riff that they play somewhat in unison 3:32. Jagger used it as some kind of kick off point and wrote a song, words and melody. Taylor maybe helped make this melody more interesting. I hear Taylor's influence on the melody due to things like the big jumps from one note to another, ie the G to E, a 6th then another jump from D to A a 5th during the main melody.

That kinda thing became a distinctive part of his guitar playing, made quite vocal like by sliding up to the notes etc.

When the wind blows
G...... G ...E....D

And the rain
D....D....A


The Japanese comes in to the picture due to pentatonic nature of the melody and the emphasis on certain pitches and some of the phrasing. Implied rather than actual.







Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:32 by His Majesty.

His Majesty, that's a kind of picture I have also constructed of song's creation (and I really like the way you sketch Taylor's contribution and the 'eastern' vibe in it). The strong evidence seems to be that the song was based on - or inspired by - some sort of Keith's tape (and Keith had nothing else to do with the song than that tape, since he was so "out of it"). The only problem seem to be Keith's specific (1971) reference to the 'end riff'. But who knows, maybe it could be that the two Micks were developed the melody and riff so much further in the final version, that the origin occurred to him only by the time they do the variant of it in the outro....

Wasn't "Japanese Thing" more like a working title for the whole song when they started to develop it, and not a name for Keith's tape?

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 17:52 by Doxa.

The vocal melody there is "let it go, now", which is descending, while the riff ("da-da. da-da-da-da-da-da. da-da") is not.

That riff is very similar to licks Keith would play on UMT live and other soul rockers - as it is presented by Taylor on the recording.

If Keith also played what the strings are playing, it sounds (in a way) a little oriental. But we don´t know that, of course.

Doxa and kleerie,

I´m amazed by your over-looking of the role of this theme in the song. It´s the @#$%& climax!

Taylor said:
"I sort of had a hand in writing that riff, at least I suggested that the strings would play it"

That could very well mean that Keith had this riff, and that Taylor played it, and contributed to arranging it beautifully with strings. He has never claimed to have written or arranged anything else in this song...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:46 by DandelionPowderman.

Hmmm... I misread His Majesty's post, and seemingly he refers to the part DandelionPowderman sees the "climax" of it, and Mathijs not having any eastern flavor, and which doesn't actually have not anything to do with the magical melody line and riff of the song. Yep, that sounds easily a basic guitar riff Keith could have written. And it would go with his quote as well.

Shit, I don't know...

- Doxa

Looking at it purely from the music and not what people have been quoted as saying...

The evidence that Taylor helped write the main vocal melody is in the melodic jumps present in the vocal melody. The distinctive Taylor style he started to develop during 1970 - 1973 is full of such things. It's the thing that kinda gets on my nerves by 1973 as it is everywhere and on everything, but anyway my point is that it's possibly a good musical clue with regards to Moonlight Mile.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't wrote great songs before or after, it sounds pretty reasonable to think that a guitarist with a melidoc, vocal like playing style could and probably did have influence on the creation of vocal melodies.

It might have took someone like Jagger to focus in on guitar melodies that Taylor might otherwise have just used for part of a solo for example.

Of course, it could be that Jagger write it on his own and Taylor made it sound great on the recording by developing th main melody further via improvisation during the ethereal section at the end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 18:25 by His Majesty.

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Doxa
Hmmm... I misread His Majesty's post, and seemingly he refers to the part DandelionPowderman sees the "climax" of it, and Mathijs not having any eastern flavor, and which doesn't actually have not anything to do with the magical melody line and riff of the song. Yep, that sounds easily a basic guitar riff Keith could have written. And it would go with his quote as well.

Shit, I don't know...

- Doxa

He's merely adding confusion.

Main vocal melody = the main @#$%& vocal melody of the song, not that silly riff part. Made clear by the fact I posted the words and notes of part of the main vocal melody of the song.

End or climax riff = let it go now bit.

Main vocal meldy etc = main vocal melody of the song and magical improvisations on it following the end/climax riff.

My musings are mostly related to Taylor having influence on the main vocal melody. Coming from a musical point of view, not one based on a few quotes by people that often get confused by their own memories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 18:20 by His Majesty.

The melodic vocal line is mainly based on the opening riff, which I´m pretty sure Mick Jagger wrote.

He could easily have been inspired by Taylor on the "I'm hiding, sister, and I'm dreaming. I'm riding down your moonlight mile"-lines.

But of course, there is no evidence of that whatsoever.

I agree about the fusion-stuff fits this song beautifully. In a way it did with I´m Free in 69 as well. However, imo, it went too far eventually



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:40 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

Doxa and kleerie,

I´m amazed by your over-looking of the role of this theme in the song. It´s the @#$%& climax!

Who is over-looking it? It is a wonderful little section/theme within a song, and works majestically. But in the context of the song, I see it nothing but a wonderful arrangement idea (if the creator of the lick is justified to a credit, is up to big-heartness, and if it is, the credition in Stones songs should contain much more names than they actually do). Besides, those 30 seconds they play it, are about the only moments in the song in where there is nothing "eastern" in it...

- Doxa

I'm not much of fan of the boy, but him possibly having influence on the song via melodies came to me through listening, not through any quote influence. Ie the main vocal melody has distinctions that are a key part of Taylor's guitar playing during 1970 - 1973.

The Keith riff thing is pretty clear to me, it's that "Let it go, now" part. Taylor suggested the strings play it also.

Keith had a riff and a vibe, then Jagger wrote a song...

...the music and styling suggesting some possible melodic influence from Taylor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 18:40 by His Majesty.

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Doxa

Who is over-looking it? It is a wonderful little section/theme within a song, and works majestically. But in the context of the song, I see it nothing but a wonderful arrangement idea (if the creator of the lick is justified to a credit, is up to big-heartness, and if it is, the credition in Stones songs should contain much more names than they actually do). Besides, those 30 seconds they play it, are about the only moments in the song in where there is nothing "eastern" in it...

- Doxa

It's keeping within the pentatonic nature of the melody, the strings adding a bit more to the tip of the hat towards the east.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 18:44 by His Majesty.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

Doxa and kleerie,

I´m amazed by your over-looking of the role of this theme in the song. It´s the @#$%& climax!

Who is over-looking it? It is a wonderful little section/theme within a song, and works majestically. But in the context of the song, I see it nothing but a wonderful arrangement idea (if the creator of the lick is justified to a credit, is up to big-heartness, and if it is, the credition in Stones songs should contain much more names than they actually do). Besides, those 30 seconds they play it, are about the only moments in the song in where there is nothing "eastern" in it...

- Doxa

LOL!

" yeah, if that would be the case, Jagger would be right when he said "adding a few licks won't make you a song-writer", as he commented - probably about only time these credition claims - around the time Taylor left... Like you, I don't think only this can be the only thing Taylor has in his mind here..."

Imagine the song and the dynamics without it...

There is something oriental in what the strings play, btw. The two notes, with pressure on them - first descending, then they go the other way ("da da-da da)

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His Majesty
Looking at it purely from the music and not what people have been quoted as saying...

The evidence that Taylor helped write it is in the melodic jumps present in the vocal melody. The distinctive Taylor style he started to develop during 1970 - 1973 is full of such things. It's the thing that kinda gets on my nerves by 1973 as it is everywhere and on everything, but anyway my point is that it's possibly a good musical clue with regards to Moonlight Mile.

Doesn't matter if he hasn't wrote great songs before or after, it sounds pretty reasonable to think that a guitarist with a melidoc, vocal like playing style could and probably did have influence on the creation of vocal melodies.

It might have took someone like Jagger to focus in on guitar melodies that Taylor might otherwise have just used for part of a solo for example.

Of course, it could be that Jagger write it on his own and Taylor made it sound great on the recording by developing th main melody further via improvisation during the ethereal section at the end.

I go with this interpretation.
Btw: A good description of Taylor's guitar playing style: vocal like playing. That's also the reason I love much of his playing: it sings.

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

Doxa and kleerie,

I´m amazed by your over-looking of the role of this theme in the song. It´s the @#$%& climax!

Who is over-looking it? It is a wonderful little section/theme within a song, and works majestically. But in the context of the song, I see it nothing but a wonderful arrangement idea (if the creator of the lick is justified to a credit, is up to big-heartness, and if it is, the credition in Stones songs should contain much more names than they actually do). Besides, those 30 seconds they play it, are about the only moments in the song in where there is nothing "eastern" in it...

- Doxa

LOL!

" yeah, if that would be the case, Jagger would be right when he said "adding a few licks won't make you a song-writer", as he commented - probably about only time these credition claims - around the time Taylor left... Like you, I don't think only this can be the only thing Taylor has in his mind here..."

Imagine the song and the dynamics without it...

There is something oriental in what the strings play, btw. The two notes, with pressure on them - first descending, then they go the other way ("da da-da da)

You seem to belittle the significance of the beautiful and creative art of arranging? I said the above quote only regards to song-credition claims, and in this particular case, if that is Taylor's actual only contribution to the song, I would side with "Jagger/Richards" in credition. If that gives you a song-writing credit, "Can't You Hear Me Knocking? should include Keyes and Taylor as co-writers as well - they are writing about the half of the song! what would be the dynamics of the song without the riffs those two guys do in the 'jam' section of the song? Or do you claim that Jagger/Richards wrote them?

I agree that one can hear something 'eastern'-like in the 'let it go' section, especially taken that one is repaired in the 3:32 minutus prior it hearing nothing else. But let's say, if one have had started the listening experience from that, and not hearing anything else, the mind going to far east probably would not occur instantly to mind.... The riff Taylor plays there is a rather ordinary (but effective) rock riff, if taken out of context.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:32 by Doxa.

Btw, Dandie, thanks for pointing out the right time of the piece in question. It has done the discussion good, resulting in some of HM's best posts.

Dandie, I've edited my main post to clarify things, to keep that clarity can yah re-quote it or delete the old one from your post?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:28 by His Majesty.

Never

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DandelionPowderman
Never

Ok.

Did I remove the right quote?

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DandelionPowderman
Did I remove the right quote?

I hope you didn't forget to make screenshot of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 20:19 by kleermaker.

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DandelionPowderman
Did I remove the right quote?

No, the one with the part about melodic jumps with two examples and also and YouTube Japanese scales.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-21 19:48 by His Majesty.

Better now? Damned hard to edit with my Android phone

We might never know the final truth, but it is fascinating to read all these educated guesses. To quote Dandie out of centext: "But of course, there is no evidence of that whatsoever" - this applies to any claim here!

- Doxa

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Doxa


We might never know the final truth, but it is fascinating to read all these educated guesses. To quote Dandie out of centext: "But of course, there is no evidence of that whatsoever" - this applies to any claim here!

- Doxa

No claim culture please.

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kleermaker

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Doxa


We might never know the final truth, but it is fascinating to read all these educated guesses. To quote Dandie out of centext: "But of course, there is no evidence of that whatsoever" - this applies to any claim here!

- Doxa

No claim culture please.

Well, a proposal, belief or statement culture then...

- Doxa

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Doxa

Quote
kleermaker

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Doxa


We might never know the final truth, but it is fascinating to read all these educated guesses. To quote Dandie out of centext: "But of course, there is no evidence of that whatsoever" - this applies to any claim here!

- Doxa

No claim culture please.

Well, a proposal, belief or statement culture then...

- Doxa

And an opinion culture of course.