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His Majesty

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Mathijs

but but but -there's nothing 'Japanese' about that riff. That riff is a fairly straightforward minor riff in open G, and according to Taylor that was his.

It's major as is the main vocal melody.

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Mathijs

The 'eastern' sounding bits are the string section over that minor open G riff, and Taylor's rephrasing of the main riff starting at 4:30. He starts the notes with up-bends, and that makes it a bit 'Japanese' (if you don't know Japanese music, that is).

Mathijs

No bends mr.

Sure there are bends in the phrasing of Taylor, just as there are pull-offs.

The riff is major, but it has an Aminor chord if I am not mistaken.

Anyway: the riff after 'let it go now' is the riff that Richards refers too, but that is claimed also by Taylor. And I can imagine Taylor helping out developing the main vocal melody from something crude to something smooth, and adding the 'Japanese' feeling bit, and helping out with the strings.

Mathijs

I listened after reading your post and there were no bends in the part you singled out. 4:30 onwards.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 00:13 by His Majesty.

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Mathijs

but but but -there's nothing 'Japanese' about that riff. That riff is a fairly straightforward minor riff in open G, and according to Taylor that was his.

It's major as is the main vocal melody.

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Mathijs

The 'eastern' sounding bits are the string section over that minor open G riff, and Taylor's rephrasing of the main riff starting at 4:30. He starts the notes with up-bends, and that makes it a bit 'Japanese' (if you don't know Japanese music, that is).

Mathijs

No bends mr.

Sure there are bends in the phrasing of Taylor, just as there are pull-offs.

The riff is major, but it has an Aminor chord if I am not mistaken.

Anyway: the riff after 'let it go now' is the riff that Richards refers too, but that is claimed also by Taylor. And I can imagine Taylor helping out developing the main vocal melody from something crude to something smooth, and adding the 'Japanese' feeling bit, and helping out with the strings.

Mathijs

Didn't Taylor refer to his decision about bringing in strings on this theme? I have never seen that he claims to have written it.

It sure sounds like something Keith would make.

Whether or not Taylor created the riff for the vocal melody or not, or came up with the idea to add strings, it's all beside the point--the song was written by Mick Jagger, not Mick Taylor, and would have existed whether or not Taylor had put his musical touches on it.

If you write a song, then you're the songwriter. If you just write music, riffs, and bridges around which the song is framed, then you get credit as an arranger. Arranging and songwriting are not the same things.

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stonehearted
Whether or not Taylor created the riff for the vocal melody or not, or came up with the idea to add strings, it's all beside the point--the song was written by Mick Jagger, not Mick Taylor, and would have existed whether or not Taylor had put his musical touches on it.

If you write a song, then you're the songwriter. If you just write music, riffs, and bridges around which the song is framed, then you get credit as an arranger. Arranging and songwriting are not the same things.

Vocal melody is Jagger's riff.

Generally, I agree, but you can create crucial parts...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 00:27 by DandelionPowderman.

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DandelionPowderman

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Mathijs

Anyway: the riff after 'let it go now' is the riff that Richards refers too, but that is claimed also by Taylor. And I can imagine Taylor helping out developing the main vocal melody from something crude to something smooth, and adding the 'Japanese' feeling bit, and helping out with the strings.

Mathijs

Didn't Taylor refer to his decision about bringing in strings on this theme? I have never seen that he claims to have written it.

It sure sounds like something Keith would make.

I don't know but at least to my ears he seems to indicate something to that effect:

At Stargroves, we had the Stones' 16-track mobile recording unit outside, and, inside, we played in this huge room with a gallery and great acoustics. That's where Moonlight Mile came from. But Mick first sang it to me in a first-class railway compartment on the way from Lindon to Bristol. Then he had the idea of embellishing it with strings. I contributed the riff that Paul Buckmaster's strings are based on - that ethereal, unresolved ending. Moonlight Mile, I Got the Blues and Sister Morphine are probablay my favourite songs on the whole album.

- Mick Taylor, 2011


(A)s far as the (Stones songs) I played on, I like Sway - and Moonlight Mile because I sort of had a hand in co-writing that, in a way. Or at least I wrote the riff the string part is based on.

- Mick Taylor, 2012

(from timeisonourside.com once again)

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 00:33 by Doxa.

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stonehearted
the song was written by Mick Jagger.

We don't know that as fact and we know not what his song sounded like when he presented the song to the others. It's perfectly possible for someone to have written a song, but for the melody or words to be changed later due to the direct/intentional or non direct/unintentional influence of someone else.

There are musical things in the main vocal melody which show up time and time again in the guitar playing of Taylor. It's a suggestion that he may have influenced the main vocal melody.

Song writing and arranging are different, but they can also greatly influence one another.

There's contradictions between their quotes on this one and that's why I choose not to get too hung up on what they say, more on what they play.

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DandelionPowderman

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stonehearted
Whether or not Taylor created the riff for the vocal melody or not, or came up with the idea to add strings, it's all beside the point--the song was written by Mick Jagger, not Mick Taylor, and would have existed whether or not Taylor had put his musical touches on it.

If you write a song, then you're the songwriter. If you just write music, riffs, and bridges around which the song is framed, then you get credit as an arranger. Arranging and songwriting are not the same things.

Vocal melody is Jagger's riff.

Generally, I agree, but you can create crucial parts...

yeah, none of this is black and white...if you're working on something together, very difficult to decide whose idea belonged to who if you can even remember.

Bottom line I think is Taylor probably contributed to the writing of that song but for 'political reasons' was given the short shrift.

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Doxa

(A)s far as the (Stones songs) I played on, I like Sway - and Moonlight Mile because I sort of had a hand in co-writing that, in a way. Or at least I wrote the riff the string part is based on.

- Mick Taylor, 2012

(from timeisonourside.com once again)

- Doxa

"at least" meaning there may have been more contribution.

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treaclefingers


Bottom line I think is Taylor probably contributed to the writing of that song but for 'political reasons' was given the short shrift.

I hear Taylorism in the main vocal melody.


Coincidence or influence?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 01:31 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty

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treaclefingers


Bottom line I think is Taylor probably contributed to the writing of that song but for 'political reasons' was given the short shrift.

I hear Taylorism in the main vocal melody.


Coincidence or influence?

the main vocal melody is based on Jagger's riff.

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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treaclefingers


Bottom line I think is Taylor probably contributed to the writing of that song but for 'political reasons' was given the short shrift.

I hear Taylorism in the main vocal melody.


Coincidence or influence?

the main vocal melody is based on Jagger's riff.

How do you know which came first? Also, what did the riff/melody sound like before Jagger played it to the other members of the band?

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His Majesty

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stonehearted
the song was written by Mick Jagger.

We don't know that as fact and we know not what his song sounded like when he presented the song to the others. It's perfectly possible for someone to have written a song, but for the melody or words to be changed later due to the direct/intentional or non direct/unintentional influence of someone else.

There are musical things in the main vocal melody which show up time and time again in the guitar playing of Taylor. It's a suggestion that he may have influenced the main vocal melody.

Song writing and arranging are different, but they can also greatly influence one another.

There's contradictions between their quotes on this one and that's why I choose not to get too hung up on what they say, more on what they play.

Seems the best approach to me.

The bottom line and problem in these credition matters is that it is totally in the hands of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as far as Rolling Stones originals go. They decide if they will share a credit or not. It's their judgment that only counts here. So from a point of view of other people who might have have a hand in creative work, that is not a fair situation at all.

But for example, if we think "Moonlight Mile". Jagger seemingly thought that whatever Taylor did to enrich it , help him in shaping and finishing the melody line, etc. it wasn't enough to add anything essential to the sketch or idea he had in his mind. That seems to indicate that the way Jagger sees a song is essentially a rather rough deal, probably just the basic chords, a sketch for the melody line plus the lyrics. Whatever someone is suggesting there, helping him with melody lines, probably adding some chords, or other musical ideas/themes, who knows even words, is just "helping" or, to say it otherway, "arranging" it. Taylor seemingly sees his contribution in a bit more substantive light.

I won't even try to be a judge here, and determine who is 'right' here.

My perception is that there is a lot grey area involved in creative work - especially taking the way the Stones make songs in a recording studio via arranging - but like noted, all we - or anyone - can do is trust Jagger's (or Richards') judgment here - that what he sees and does is 'right'. And in the end, he (with Keith) is the only authority deciding these matters.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 01:54 by Doxa.

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman

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His Majesty

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treaclefingers


Bottom line I think is Taylor probably contributed to the writing of that song but for 'political reasons' was given the short shrift.

I hear Taylorism in the main vocal melody.


Coincidence or influence?

the main vocal melody is based on Jagger's riff.

How do you know which came first? Also, what did the riff/melody sound like before Jagger played it to the other members of the band?

He plays it, and apparantly he did on that train ride as well

Trust Jagger and Richards?

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Doxa
The bottom line and problem in these credition matters is that it is totally in the hands of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as far as Rolling Stones originals go. They decide if they will share a credit or not. It's their judgment that only counts here. So from a point of view of other people who might have have a hand in creative work, that is not a fair situation at all.

But for example, if we think "Moonlight Mile". Jagger seemingly thought that whatever Taylor did to enrich it , help him in shaping and finishing the melody line, etc. it wasn't enough to add anything essential to the sketch or idea he had in his mind. That seems to indicate that the way Jagger sees a song is essentially a rather rough deal, probably just the basic chords, a sketch for the melody line plus the lyrics. Whatever someone is suggesting there, helping him with melody lines, probably adding some chords, or other musical ideas/themes, who knows even words, is just "helping" or, to say it otherway, "arranging" it. Taylor seemingly sees his contribution in a bit more substantive light.

I won't even try to be a judge here, and determine who is 'right' here.

My perception is that there is a lot grey area involved in creative work - especially taking the way the Stones make songs in a recording studio via arranging - but like noted, all we - or anyone - can do is trust Jagger's (or Richards') judgment here - that what he sees and does is 'right'. And in the end, he (with Keith) is the only authority deciding these matters.

- Doxa

Yes, right. But apart from how high Jagger/Richards may have the bar set to earn a credit, there is also another matter. Jagger "promising" Taylor a couple of writing credits. What on earth would make Jagger do something like that, unless he at one point thought Taylor had earned them (not pertaining to Moonlight Mile here, but other songs)?

Is Taylor lying?
Did Taylor misunderstand?

Possible but less likely to me than Jagger just thinking later on "oh, this is going to be a pain in the ass to explain to Keith" and then just moving on to other things and letting the chips fall wherever they may. I don't know of course, but its a thought...

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DandelionPowderman


He plays it, and apparantly he did on that train ride as well

The recording is not from that train ride though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-11-22 02:21 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Trust Jagger and Richards?

Well, I've seen that some people here at IORR - no names mentioned - seem to trust quite a lot to the 'rightness' of their decisions, whenever any doubt arises if some "Jagger/Richards" compositions are not totally accuratively credited as they claim....

I guess the term 'hope' might be better than 'trust', but in the end, it doesn't matter - they have an absolute power to decide whatever they want. Discussing these matters is enlightening and interesting if we are interested in the actual creations of the songs - who did and what - but what goes for actual credition, that's (unfortunately) irrelevant.

- Doxa

I doubt the credits or their memories of who played what when the music hints and suggests I should.

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His Majesty
I doubt the credits or their memories of who played what when the music hints and suggests I should.

Keep that!

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman

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Mathijs

Anyway: the riff after 'let it go now' is the riff that Richards refers too, but that is claimed also by Taylor. And I can imagine Taylor helping out developing the main vocal melody from something crude to something smooth, and adding the 'Japanese' feeling bit, and helping out with the strings.

Mathijs

Didn't Taylor refer to his decision about bringing in strings on this theme? I have never seen that he claims to have written it.

It sure sounds like something Keith would make.

I don't know but at least to my ears he seems to indicate something to that effect:

At Stargroves, we had the Stones' 16-track mobile recording unit outside, and, inside, we played in this huge room with a gallery and great acoustics. That's where Moonlight Mile came from. But Mick first sang it to me in a first-class railway compartment on the way from Lindon to Bristol. Then he had the idea of embellishing it with strings. I contributed the riff that Paul Buckmaster's strings are based on - that ethereal, unresolved ending. Moonlight Mile, I Got the Blues and Sister Morphine are probablay my favourite songs on the whole album.

- Mick Taylor, 2011


(A)s far as the (Stones songs) I played on, I like Sway - and Moonlight Mile because I sort of had a hand in co-writing that, in a way. Or at least I wrote the riff the string part is based on.

- Mick Taylor, 2012

(from timeisonourside.com once again)

- Doxa

It's two different things he states here -the ethereal thing to me is Taylor's 'Japanese' playing at 4:30. And, the guitar riff after 'let it go now' is something diffferent to what the strings are playing over it. Any way, if that's what he claims I understand he would not get a credit from Jagger, who then probably wrote the melody line, the verses and the chorus.

The (short) outtake in the CH movie by the way might suggest the original demo was much more dreamy and ethereal, with a longer part based on Taylor's take of the melody line as he plays it at 4:30.

Mathijs

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His Majesty

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DandelionPowderman


He plays it, and apparantly he did on that train ride as well

The recording is not from that train ride though.

No, it isn't

There is a possibility that Taylor taught Mick the main riff, but that isn't very compatible with what he said about Mick having this song down and played it for him", either...

It's easy to assume that this riff was the first thing Jagger wrote, as it dominates the song totally.

Fantastic song!!!

Have a great memory of this song and a particularly nice snowboarding run down Mt. Bachlor.

My view is that the song is mostly, if not all, Jaggers, but at some point during the initial writing of the song to the final released take Jagger has took some inspiration from Taylors style of playing.

This inspiration could have bern absorbed unintentionally, intentionally by Jagger or even contributed in the form of a direct suggestion/alteration to the melody by Taylor.

To put it another way. I doubt the melody would have been quite as is had Taylor not been in the band.

That sounds plausible.

What a beautiful song that is. Every single aspect of it is perfect. And it must be one of the most beautiful vocal melodies the Stones ever came up with.

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His Majesty

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Doxa

(A)s far as the (Stones songs) I played on, I like Sway - and Moonlight Mile because I sort of had a hand in co-writing that, in a way. Or at least I wrote the riff the string part is based on.

- Mick Taylor, 2012

(from timeisonourside.com once again)

- Doxa

"Or at least" meaning there may have been more contribution.

"At least" here just as likely means that he is correcting himself ("co-writing - or, at least I wrote the riff...)

Yeah, probably.

Fact is that without Taylor this song wouldn't exist in its factual form.