Tell Me :
Talk
I forget to reply, but better later than never...
No, I don't think it is controversial at all. That's pretty common picture of how the Stones songs are born like, and I don't disagree with it. But I don't take it that literally, or to say it other way, I think it is a bit too simple one if we want to have a more accurate picture. At least in some songs. And I think "Moonlight Mile" is one of those.
I have already given my 'educated guess' of the creative process behind it, but let me repeat the main points. I think it is a "Jagger song", meaning that most of the song derives from him - the sketch for the melody line and the chords, lyrics - but I think Taylor has in his hand in shaping or finishing the melody line (but not so much that Jagger thought him deserving a credit). The reason I believe is well argued by His Majesty in this thread: there is so much Taylorian ideas in the main melody line - ideas we can hear from the guitar stuff he had done in other occasions. It is sort of melodic ideas that seems to only occur during the times Taylor was onboard (and there wasn't many of them even then), and like Jagger has giving credit to Taylor afterwards, his guitar playing helped him as a singer with the melodies. The latter is usually taken to refer to live concerts, but its moral can be applied to some studio works as well.
The point is that one cannot hear Taylor's "contribution" solely by listening his guitar in the finished project (as I think you seem to think here), if one thinks like I do that he was actually contributing in the very process of shaping the song. Like you said in regards to Richards's contribution:
"It is kinda weird that some people think you can't have written something, only because you weren't there when it was recorded, though..."
Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...
So altogether, even though I can't say did Taylor contribute enough to earn a credit, I am rather positive that without him "Moonlight Mile" would have sounded essentially different without his 'intervention'. And the point is not that 'yes, without that violin section as well', since the latter was clearly added afterwards, and belong clearly to the region of 'arrangement'. I take Taylor's contribution being more substantial. There is so much Taylorian lyrical touch and finesse in the song, that I can't think Jagger could have achieved the incredible result without Taylor 'sparring' him.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 00:12 by Doxa.
According to Mick he started writing songs on his own already in 1967.
Maybe I should wait until we are at "S", but I have never heard that keith was involved in Sway.
Listen to the chorus he is singing!
What I meant by "writing on his own" was that the Mick/Keith writing partnership was dead (in practise) - they wrote their songs separately mostly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 11:03 by DandelionPowderman.
+1.
+1
You are the most loyal 'official truth' disciple in this forum, Dandie. The use of that infamous term "inspired by" ices the cake (the term even Ron Wood makes fun about)... I don't think there is much difference in what His Majesty says than what I do. Both him and I hear Taylor's influence there, but we much leave the door open how much and how exactly did he contribute (did you notice he starting his post by "at the very least.."). But for you there seem to be some sort of certain knowledge that 'no way Taylor can have any contribution there, no way!". The argument is as follows: where are all his all contemplete great songs? -> no way he can add/influence any melodic ideas to any Rolling Stones (= Jagger/Richards) song.
This is not about song-writing credits per se - but who actually contributed to that magnificient Rolling Stones song. So no need to be so defensive about the rightness of Jagger/Richards credition. Even I haven't doubted the latter.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 13:19 by Doxa.
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 13:06 by bitusa2012.
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
"Some of the fusion stuff" it is for Woodists here, but the maestro himslef gives a nice description of "Taylorism" in the page six in this thread.
- Doxa
Now you're lost, Doxa. It's a musical expression, not a swearing
And I liked what he did on I'm Free. Four years later, however, he took it too far for my tastes.
It was only meant as a "rough guide" for clarification, to answer bitusa2012's question.
Ah, you wanna start a Taylor vs. Wood war again, don't you, you rascal!
Isn't that what we do all the time?
It's probably the best song they ever recorded. Sounding magical, indeed.
So is Let It Loose, with Taylor missing in action, btw.
Just goes to show how good they can be, and that they're not dependent on all the others being in the studio when they go "out of the box"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 15:08 by DandelionPowderman.
I think the problem with the songs you mention is that they just aren't that good, certainly not on par with Moonlight Mile or Let It Loose.
Taylor's playing on all of them is great, though, but it doesn't save neither the songs, nor the albums they're on, imo.
I'm not sure if Taylor even played his melodic stuff on those songs before Jagger sung them - in fact I doubt he did, as it sounds like he created something to suit the songs after the backing tracks were recorded (Hide Your Love sounds like an impulsive jam, though); themes and motifs.
It was probably more true live on stage - that Taylor's playing sort of enhanced Mick's vocal delievery, although he could be pretty rough on stage.
There are several opinions about that, but I thought he did good, and it was nice seeing him back with the band again
It isn't better than Ruby Tuesday. ><
Back Street Girl is also a strong contender, so is Coming Down Again.
You read me like the devil reads the bible.
I don't disagree with His Majesty, and I too say that Taylor probably have inspired Mick in his writing.
I also know a lot about recording, and I have ears - and I know more about how Mick Taylor plays, and what he does than most posters here.
I didn't know that it was the "official truth" that Taylor inspired Mick in the writing process for this song. I have never heard that before, but I said I believed it... so, have you really read my posts?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 23:22 by DandelionPowderman.
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Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 9, 2013 23:48
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
The only thing I know is that Taylor said it was a Jagger song
But do you take that mean that everything ever written in that song comes comes from Mick Jagger and from no one else, including the riff Keith Richards vaguesly remeber having written?
- Doxa
Most likely everything that was written was written by Jagger, perhaps with some arrangement exceptions. They might have used Keith's little part as well.
Taylor's contribution is brilliant, but not necessarily something you would "write" per se - more like something a great improviser would add - someone with a very musical mind.
I don't know why this view is so controversial for you. For me, it is common sense, very much in line with how the Stones have worked - before and after MM...
I forget to reply, but better later than never...
No, I don't think it is controversial at all. That's pretty common picture of how the Stones songs are born like, and I don't disagree with it. But I don't take it that literally, or to say it other way, I think it is a bit too simple one if we want to have a more accurate picture. At least in some songs. And I think "Moonlight Mile" is one of those.
I have already given my 'educated guess' of the creative process behind it, but let me repeat the main points. I think it is a "Jagger song", meaning that most of the song derives from him - the sketch for the melody line and the chords, lyrics - but I think Taylor has in his hand in shaping or finishing the melody line (but not so much that Jagger thought him deserving a credit). The reason I believe is well argued by His Majesty in this thread: there is so much Taylorian ideas in the main melody line - ideas we can hear from the guitar stuff he had done in other occasions. It is sort of melodic ideas that seems to only occur during the times Taylor was onboard (and there wasn't many of them even then), and like Jagger has giving credit to Taylor afterwards, his guitar playing helped him as a singer with the melodies. The latter is usually taken to refer to live concerts, but its moral can be applied to some studio works as well.
The point is that one cannot hear Taylor's "contribution" solely by listening his guitar in the finished project (as I think you seem to think here), if one thinks like I do that he was actually contributing in the very process of shaping the song. Like you said in regards to Richards's contribution:
"It is kinda weird that some people think you can't have written something, only because you weren't there when it was recorded, though..."
Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...
So altogether, even though I can't say did Taylor contribute enough to earn a credit, I am rather positive that without him "Moonlight Mile" would have sounded essentially different without his 'intervention'. And the point is not that 'yes, without that violin section as well', since the latter was clearly added afterwards, and belong clearly to the region of 'arrangement'. I take Taylor's contribution being more substantial. There is so much Taylorian lyrical touch and finesse in the song, that I can't think Jagger could have achieved the incredible result without Taylor 'sparring' him.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 00:12 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 00:49
I can't see any Taylor participation in the main melody line, which is similar to Mick's intro riff.
However, I can hear lyrical fills that all fits the song perfectly + development in the jam parts of the song. To me, it's obvious that they are fills and overdubs, though.
That's why I don't follow you here, Doxa.
Honestly, I would be happy to be wrong.
However, I can hear lyrical fills that all fits the song perfectly + development in the jam parts of the song. To me, it's obvious that they are fills and overdubs, though.
That's why I don't follow you here, Doxa.
Honestly, I would be happy to be wrong.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: December 10, 2013 04:09
At the very least I think hearing Taylor play at sessions, rehearsals and in concert influenced Jagger whilst writing the song. I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody, but of course this doesn't mean that Taylor has to have had some intentional direct influence on it or that Jagger has to have used anything specifically played by Taylor.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
Moonlight Mile sounds like Jagger channelling some Taylor like approach to melody. There's Keith influence in there as well regardless of the japanese thing. That influence is one of the classic syncopated Keith rhythms that appears in many of their original songs.
dum dum dadumdummm, dadada dum dum dadumdumm etc.
It's utilised in Moonlight Mile, but also experimented with by having it wrap around and go with the flow of the implied time signature of the main vocal melody.
So whether Keith or Taylor helped write it isn't so important because they are in the essentials of the music via Jagger and it is to Jaggers credit that he can bring those things together in such a concise and unique sounding way.
The Rolling Stones aka The Melody and Rhythm Kings.
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 04:54 by His Majesty.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
Moonlight Mile sounds like Jagger channelling some Taylor like approach to melody. There's Keith influence in there as well regardless of the japanese thing. That influence is one of the classic syncopated Keith rhythms that appears in many of their original songs.
dum dum dadumdummm, dadada dum dum dadumdumm etc.
It's utilised in Moonlight Mile, but also experimented with by having it wrap around and go with the flow of the implied time signature of the main vocal melody.
So whether Keith or Taylor helped write it isn't so important because they are in the essentials of the music via Jagger and it is to Jaggers credit that he can bring those things together in such a concise and unique sounding way.
The Rolling Stones aka The Melody and Rhythm Kings.
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 04:54 by His Majesty.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 09:10
Quote
His Majesty
At the very least I think hearing Taylor play at sessions, rehearsals and in concert influenced Jagger whilst writing the song. I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody, but of course this doesn't mean that Taylor has to have had some intentional direct influence on it or that Jagger has to have used anything specifically played by Taylor.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
Moonlight Mile sounds like Jagger channelling some Taylor like approach to melody. There's Keith influence in there as well regardless of the japanese thing. That influence is one of the classic syncopated Keith rhythms that appears in many of their original songs.
dum dum dadumdummm, dadada dum dum dadumdumm etc.
It's utilised in Moonlight Mile, but also experimented with by having it wrap around and go with the flow of the implied time signature of the main vocal melody.
So whether Keith or Taylor helped write it isn't so important because they are in the essentials of the music via Jagger and it is to Jaggers credit that he can bring those things together in such a concise and unique sounding way.
The Rolling Stones aka The Melody and Rhythm Kings.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 10:04
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
elunsi
()
Date: December 10, 2013 10:17
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
According to Mick he started writing songs on his own already in 1967.
Maybe I should wait until we are at "S", but I have never heard that keith was involved in Sway.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: December 10, 2013 10:26
I don't care who wrote it/wrote parts of it
I don't care who plays on it/plays on parts of it
It APPEARS as the final track on the greatest RnR album ever, IMHO.
It IS the best album closer of all. SO DARING, so original, so un-Stones-like, YET somehow, SO STONES-LIKE.
Absolutely a stunner. A masterpiece. Vivid lyrically, sweeping in its musicality thanks in part to those majestic strings and the almost plain acoustic guitars. Beautiful
I don't care who plays on it/plays on parts of it
It APPEARS as the final track on the greatest RnR album ever, IMHO.
It IS the best album closer of all. SO DARING, so original, so un-Stones-like, YET somehow, SO STONES-LIKE.
Absolutely a stunner. A masterpiece. Vivid lyrically, sweeping in its musicality thanks in part to those majestic strings and the almost plain acoustic guitars. Beautiful
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 11:02
Quote
elunsiQuote
DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
According to Mick he started writing songs on his own already in 1967.
Maybe I should wait until we are at "S", but I have never heard that keith was involved in Sway.
Listen to the chorus he is singing!
What I meant by "writing on his own" was that the Mick/Keith writing partnership was dead (in practise) - they wrote their songs separately mostly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 11:03 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: December 10, 2013 11:40
Quote
His Majesty
At the very least I think hearing Taylor play at sessions, rehearsals and in concert influenced Jagger whilst writing the song. I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody, but of course this doesn't mean that Taylor has to have had some intentional direct influence on it or that Jagger has to have used anything specifically played by Taylor.
Let us not forget what Jagger has said about Taylors playing in relation to his singing in contenxt of live concerts, no reason for that to not spill over in to the writing and recording of their songs as well. Probaly not direct enough for a writing credit, but an important influence all the same.
+1.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: December 10, 2013 11:41
Quote
Doxa
So altogether, even though I can't say did Taylor contribute enough to earn a credit, I am rather positive that without him "Moonlight Mile" would have sounded essentially different without his 'intervention'. And the point is not that 'yes, without that violin section as well', since the latter was clearly added afterwards, and belong clearly to the region of 'arrangement'. I take Taylor's contribution being more substantial. There is so much Taylorian lyrical touch and finesse in the song, that I can't think Jagger could have achieved the incredible result without Taylor 'sparring' him.
- Doxa
+1
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 10, 2013 12:37
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
You are the most loyal 'official truth' disciple in this forum, Dandie. The use of that infamous term "inspired by" ices the cake (the term even Ron Wood makes fun about)... I don't think there is much difference in what His Majesty says than what I do. Both him and I hear Taylor's influence there, but we much leave the door open how much and how exactly did he contribute (did you notice he starting his post by "at the very least.."). But for you there seem to be some sort of certain knowledge that 'no way Taylor can have any contribution there, no way!". The argument is as follows: where are all his all contemplete great songs? -> no way he can add/influence any melodic ideas to any Rolling Stones (= Jagger/Richards) song.
This is not about song-writing credits per se - but who actually contributed to that magnificient Rolling Stones song. So no need to be so defensive about the rightness of Jagger/Richards credition. Even I haven't doubted the latter.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 13:19 by Doxa.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
bitusa2012
()
Date: December 10, 2013 13:05
Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 13:06 by bitusa2012.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 13:39
Quote
bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 10, 2013 13:59
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
"Some of the fusion stuff" it is for Woodists here, but the maestro himslef gives a nice description of "Taylorism" in the page six in this thread.
- Doxa
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 14:07
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
bitusa2012Quote
His Majesty
I hear Taylorisms in the main vocal melody,
I have to ask, what exactly is a 'Taylor-ism' vocal?
Rgds
Rod
Perth
I think he means that some of the fusion stuff Taylor started playing already in 1969 (the improvised stuff on I'm Free etc.) rubbed off on Jagger in the way he approached songwriting. And I agree.
"Some of the fusion stuff" it is for Woodists here, but the maestro himslef gives a nice description of "Taylorism" in the page six in this thread.
- Doxa
Now you're lost, Doxa. It's a musical expression, not a swearing
And I liked what he did on I'm Free. Four years later, however, he took it too far for my tastes.
It was only meant as a "rough guide" for clarification, to answer bitusa2012's question.
Ah, you wanna start a Taylor vs. Wood war again, don't you, you rascal!
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: December 10, 2013 14:18
Time for some time travelling investigative listening. 
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 14:26
Quote
His Majesty
Time for some time travelling investigative listening.
Isn't that what we do all the time?
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 10, 2013 14:47
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
play the guitar boy
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
GOO
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:03
Top ten stones song.....Keith MIA
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:04
Quote
OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
It's probably the best song they ever recorded. Sounding magical, indeed.
So is Let It Loose, with Taylor missing in action, btw.
Just goes to show how good they can be, and that they're not dependent on all the others being in the studio when they go "out of the box"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 15:08 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:21
DP - MM is a great studio performance but I think there best studio song is Winter again the stones sounding magical without Keith. MT's playing helps Jagger with his singing and with the melody same can be said with songs like 100 Years Ago and TWFNO again MT's helps jagger with the melody and especially with 100 years Ago jagger is singing in a different style as they take chances. Also on Hide Your Love - jaggers vocal delivery is just great. So with MT presence they do stuff outside the box and do not sound like Keith's idea of how the stones should sound
play the guitar boy
play the guitar boy
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:48
Quote
OpenG
DP - MM is a great studio performance but I think there best studio song is Winter again the stones sounding magical without Keith. MT's playing helps Jagger with his singing and with the melody same can be said with songs like 100 Years Ago and TWFNO again MT's helps jagger with the melody and especially with 100 years Ago jagger is singing in a different style as they take chances. Also on Hide Your Love - jaggers vocal delivery is just great. So with MT presence they do stuff outside the box and do not sound like Keith's idea of how the stones should sound
play the guitar boy
I think the problem with the songs you mention is that they just aren't that good, certainly not on par with Moonlight Mile or Let It Loose.
Taylor's playing on all of them is great, though, but it doesn't save neither the songs, nor the albums they're on, imo.
I'm not sure if Taylor even played his melodic stuff on those songs before Jagger sung them - in fact I doubt he did, as it sounds like he created something to suit the songs after the backing tracks were recorded (Hide Your Love sounds like an impulsive jam, though); themes and motifs.
It was probably more true live on stage - that Taylor's playing sort of enhanced Mick's vocal delievery, although he could be pretty rough on stage.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
OpenG
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:49
The rolling stones of course will always be the SOUND of Keith's guitar and Charlies drumming the two constant sounds of the stones the last 50 years. But when they choose MT and put him in the band - they really went to another level they never achieved since he LEFT. Look what he did on CYHMK - he took the band to that level again during his two song GIGS with the US tour in 2013.
play the guitar boy
play the guitar boy
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 15:58
Quote
OpenG
The rolling stones of course will always be the SOUND of Keith's guitar and Charlies drumming the two constant sounds of the stones the last 50 years. But when they choose MT and put him in the band - they really went to another level they never achieved since he LEFT. Look what he did on CYHMK - he took the band to that level again during his two song GIGS with the US tour in 2013.
play the guitar boy
There are several opinions about that, but I thought he did good, and it was nice seeing him back with the band again
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: December 10, 2013 16:59
Is this song Stones masterpiece? ow?
Mind that 'Sway'is on the same album...
Mind that 'Sway'is on the same album...
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
Powerage
()
Date: December 10, 2013 19:59
A Taylor song, IMO the live version with Ronnie (1999) is quite pathetic.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: December 10, 2013 22:58
Quote
OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
It isn't better than Ruby Tuesday. >
<Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 23:08
Quote
His MajestyQuote
OpenG
MT's Climatic Looping Ending Solo on MM ends the brilliant song and has to be the best stones ballad on record. Its not a concidence that it was MT's influence and working with Jagger that it went down that way. The stones sounding magical as Keith is missing in action
play the guitar boy
It isn't better than Ruby Tuesday. >
Back Street Girl is also a strong contender, so is Coming Down Again.
Re: Track Talk: Moonlight Mile
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: December 10, 2013 23:12
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
<Is it at least as plausible to think that one has written something, when one was there when it was recorded, plus involved in the very process of getting the song from that the early presentation in the train to its finished form in the studio...>
Not really, especially since we have hundreds of examples of the opposite with the Stones.
Look, we know the Stones, aka Mick and Keith, has this special deal about song writing.
Mick probably didn't write a lot on Happy, BTMMR or Wanna Hold You. And Keith probably didn't write a lot of MM. But on other songs, like Sway, you clearly can hear that Keith was involved, ie in the chorus.
His Majesty put it brilliantly down. Mick Jagger probably was inspired by how Mick Taylor plays, and that opened his horizon as a song writer. That's exactly how it should be in a band, imo - you get the synergy effects. It doesn't mean that Taylor wrote the song, though.
By this time already (1971), Mick Jagger pretty much had started writing his songs on his own, I believe.
You are the most loyal 'official truth' disciple in this forum, Dandie. The use of that infamous term "inspired by" ices the cake (the term even Ron Wood makes fun about)... I don't think there is much difference in what His Majesty says than what I do. Both him and I hear Taylor's influence there, but we much leave the door open how much and how exactly did he contribute (did you notice he starting his post by "at the very least.."). But for you there seem to be some sort of certain knowledge that 'no way Taylor can have any contribution there, no way!". The argument is as follows: where are all his all contemplete great songs? -> no way he can add/influence any melodic ideas to any Rolling Stones (= Jagger/Richards) song.
This is not about song-writing credits per se - but who actually contributed to that magnificient Rolling Stones song. So no need to be so defensive about the rightness of Jagger/Richards credition. Even I haven't doubted the latter.
- Doxa
You read me like the devil reads the bible.
I don't disagree with His Majesty, and I too say that Taylor probably have inspired Mick in his writing.
I also know a lot about recording, and I have ears - and I know more about how Mick Taylor plays, and what he does than most posters here.
I didn't know that it was the "official truth" that Taylor inspired Mick in the writing process for this song. I have never heard that before, but I said I believed it... so, have you really read my posts?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-12-10 23:22 by DandelionPowderman.
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