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Doxa
We can also to put teh whole thing even to a larger perspective. The true artistic downhill, of course, occured earlier than in EMOTIONAL RESCUE. But that was the time when a functioning band needed to make new albums to survive or remain in the game. The biggest money, and public attention, was still in there. One needed to provide a new album every year or so in order to be in business. Was there muse or not. Or tours in foresight or not (the tours mostly were to promote tha albums - not the other way round)

Edward Twining once pointed out that EMOTIONAL RESCUE is the first album that the band really made just in order to release a new album. The muse or focus or the artistic need to 'say' something was not present. I think that is true, even though they slightly struggled with that problem already in GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY'ROCK'N'ROLL and BLACK & BLUE, SOME GIRLS being an expection, finding the focused artistic drive again. But they were still then so fine-working creative unit, vital, and working hard, seeing each other a lot, that the results were still mostly memorable, even if the focus was a bit lost. In EMOTIONAL RESCUE - their clearly weakest effort by then - the problems were upfront, for everyone clearly to see.

(One could compare this - a new album once a year - to Keith's frustration from the singles days - they needed to have a new smash hit every four months or so, which ended up to some rather not so inspired efforts).

In this sense UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK still belonged to that 'albums era': one needed to release a new album in order to 'stay alive', or give an impression of that (and the results were not any better than in EMOTIONAL RESCUE). I think STEEL WHEELS is the first album which is done mainly in order to promote a tour, and not the other way around, and this tendency just got stronger as the tours go by. But in this 'new order' the quality of the records doesn't really matter so much, because their career (and money) is not based on them. They are just formal excuses to do something else (and people buy them in the hype of the forecoming tour, and "it is the Stones, man"). And like the recent history has shown, not even a new record is needed necessarily, even though a big tour without a new album does not 'look' so good. But we still loved seeing them in LICKS TOUR, right?

- Doxa

Doxa, you have this uncanny ability to perfectly articulate what many of us think - certainly speaking for myself your analysis is once again spot on!

Doxa, when is your book coming out? You've written about 10 volumes of material on this message board. Where do you find the time?!?

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa

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His Majesty

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Doxa
new music, the very thing this band actually is all about

The mistake is to think that this is what they are all about.

Of course, you are right here.

- Doxa

Actually, making new music is not what the Stones were all about in the beginning. They set out to be evangelists and spread the word about the generally underground rhythm and blues and blues. They then made some of the best pop music the world has ever scene - for me actually THE best.

It can also be argued that they also did not set any new trends with their free foray into psychedelia. For me they started making new music and setting their own agenda with Beggars Banquet but particularly with Let It Bleed which was an incredible blend of blues, r'n'b, country, rock and in You Can't Always Get What You Want a highly original folk/classical/ballad/rocker.

Totally agree about Let It Bleed!

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tomcat2006

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Doxa
We can also to put teh whole thing even to a larger perspective. The true artistic downhill, of course, occured earlier than in EMOTIONAL RESCUE. But that was the time when a functioning band needed to make new albums to survive or remain in the game. The biggest money, and public attention, was still in there. One needed to provide a new album every year or so in order to be in business. Was there muse or not. Or tours in foresight or not (the tours mostly were to promote tha albums - not the other way round)

Edward Twining once pointed out that EMOTIONAL RESCUE is the first album that the band really made just in order to release a new album. The muse or focus or the artistic need to 'say' something was not present. I think that is true, even though they slightly struggled with that problem already in GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY'ROCK'N'ROLL and BLACK & BLUE, SOME GIRLS being an expection, finding the focused artistic drive again. But they were still then so fine-working creative unit, vital, and working hard, seeing each other a lot, that the results were still mostly memorable, even if the focus was a bit lost. In EMOTIONAL RESCUE - their clearly weakest effort by then - the problems were upfront, for everyone clearly to see.

(One could compare this - a new album once a year - to Keith's frustration from the singles days - they needed to have a new smash hit every four months or so, which ended up to some rather not so inspired efforts).

In this sense UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK still belonged to that 'albums era': one needed to release a new album in order to 'stay alive', or give an impression of that (and the results were not any better than in EMOTIONAL RESCUE). I think STEEL WHEELS is the first album which is done mainly in order to promote a tour, and not the other way around, and this tendency just got stronger as the tours go by. But in this 'new order' the quality of the records doesn't really matter so much, because their career (and money) is not based on them. They are just formal excuses to do something else (and people buy them in the hype of the forecoming tour, and "it is the Stones, man"). And like the recent history has shown, not even a new record is needed necessarily, even though a big tour without a new album does not 'look' so good. But we still loved seeing them in LICKS TOUR, right?

- Doxa

Doxa, you have this uncanny ability to perfectly articulate what many of us think - certainly speaking for myself your analysis is once again spot on!

For me Doxa is the chief critic on this board. I always look forward to his analyses of the various Stones' states of affairs.

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Dreamer

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Silver Dagger

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Doxa

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His Majesty

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Doxa
new music, the very thing this band actually is all about

The mistake is to think that this is what they are all about.

Of course, you are right here.

- Doxa

Actually, making new music is not what the Stones were all about in the beginning. They set out to be evangelists and spread the word about the generally underground rhythm and blues and blues. They then made some of the best pop music the world has ever scene - for me actually THE best.

It can also be argued that they also did not set any new trends with their free foray into psychedelia. For me they started making new music and setting their own agenda with Beggars Banquet but particularly with Let It Bleed which was an incredible blend of blues, r'n'b, country, rock and in You Can't Always Get What You Want a highly original folk/classical/ballad/rocker.

Totally agree about Let It Bleed!

And yes, Dandy is right that the Stones put their particular English slant on the rock that was evolving in America through The Doors, Hendrix (he was still an American!), and the West Coast scene.

This would be a great album....

1. Undercover
2. One Hit to the Body
3. Mixed Emotions
4. Rock and a Hard Plae
5. Almost Hear You Sigh
6. Slipping Away
7. Highwire
8. Love is Strong
9. You Got Me Rocking
10. The Worst
11. Out of Control
12. Saint of Me
13. Don't Stop
14. Oh No Not You Again
15. Too Much Blood

Considering the reality of the way things are with the RS, what would have been a perfect end to their career would have been a double album of blues covers. Beautiful, simple songs, into which they could have poured all their life's experience and musicianship. Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman would of course be on it; no back-up singers or Blondie or Darryl. The title could be 'Full Circle' or similar, and it could have a moody black and white photo shot by Annie Leibowitz for a cover.

As far as ER, I remember reading, in Wyman's book I believe, about the battle over the mixing and sequencing of ER. In the book it quotes Wyman as stating how both Keith and Mick would play him their mixes of the songs in the running order they preferred. This is supposedly part of the reason for the delay of the album by a few months. I think in the book it stated that at least 2 or 3 songs that wound up on Tattoo You were part of the running order for an early version of ER. One thing is certain by the time they began promoting the album, highlighted by the radio interview featuring Mick and Ronnie, Mick was making snide comments about Keith and the "camped out in the studio" recording process for ER.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-09-06 21:08 by big4.

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Green Lady
I'm still trying to visualise a "spacegoat..." (sorry, Doxa, but it's a lovely typo).

Yes, Doxa's passion sometimes gets in the way of his English construction.

Here's an image - a spacegoat eating a half-caked throwaway.

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Green Lady
I'm still trying to visualise a "spacegoat..." (sorry, Doxa, but it's a lovely typo).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-09-06 20:34 by Max'sKansasCity.

Doxa hit the nail on the head. Spot on.
They've been on autopilot for 31 years - no dopubt at all.
They don't care about the fans, they care about money.

A lot of fanboys say "we should appreciate the fact that they waved for a photo shott for their 50th and released stuf that's been collecting dust for decades" or whatever.

You know what? Screw that.
You know why?

There are THOUSANDS of more-deserving artists out there that DO care about there fans, that DON'T block themselves out of reality with a travelling circus of arse-kissers and yes-men.

The more you see artists out there, young and old, giving it their all and thriving, succeeding and taking their craft to new levels for EVERY tour... the more you realize that the Stones are now a hollow cash-cow, unable to make good tunes for OVER HALF of their "50 year" career.

[thepowergoats.com]

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jamesfdouglas
Doxa hit the nail on the head. Spot on.
They've been on autopilot for 31 years - no doubt at all.
They don't care about the fans, they care about money.

A lot of fanboys say "we should appreciate the fact that they waved for a photo shott for their 50th and released stuf that's been collecting dust for decades" or whatever.

You know what? Screw that.
You know why?

There are THOUSANDS of more-deserving artists out there that DO care about there fans, that DON'T block themselves out of reality with a travelling circus of arse-kissers and yes-men.

The more you see artists out there, young and old, giving it their all and thriving, succeeding and taking their craft to new levels for EVERY tour... the more you realize that the Stones are now a hollow cash-cow, unable to make good tunes for OVER HALF of their "50 year" career.

[thepowergoats.com]

GRRR!

Anyway, as far as the value of the RS' output being negligible since ER...I have found much to love in VL, SW, B2B, Superheavy, and Mick and Keith's solo albums. If they had folded their tents after ER, I would have missed out on a lot.

Doxa, I think I agree 100%.

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Bliss
Anyway, as far as the value of the RS' output being negligible since ER...I have found much to love in VL, SW, B2B, Superheavy, and Mick and Keith's solo albums. If they had folded their tents after ER, I would have missed out on a lot.

You can say that again for me too... and facts be known, we all would have missed out on much fun... some just can not, or are unwilling to, admit that fact.

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nomis
Doxa, I think I agree 100%.

As long as the analysis starts with Emotional Rescue and doesn't include anything before that because I like Goats Head Soup, IORR, and B&B too much.

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keefbajaga
Doxa, I do totally agree with your 'analysis'.

I don't. Except when is written "In this sense UNDERCOVER and DIRTY WORK still belonged to that 'albums era'" the grey days. When everyhing nearly fall apart. The very sad days.

If you mean that getting old is a drag. Ok then. If you mean that keeping a band in the same room for more than 20 years is foolish.Ok then. But all in all, ABB ( slimmed to 11 songs) orTatoo You are as good an achievement as Satanic or Between The Buttons.

My deep thinking is that at some point of the time Mick Taylor source of inspiration for Keith was truly lacking. He missed someone to push him ahead, to somehow challenge him.

I love how people are superanalyzing GRRR when all it is really is a current compilation package for the new label that they are now on because Forty Licks went out of print and they have nothing current in stores. Plus, it's their 50th anniversary and they need a career-spanning product. That's it, folks.

Good analysis, Doxa.

To me Under Cover is the last good album and the rest just weak efforts (with some very good songs, I admit, like Back of My Hand). But since Dirty Work they sound like The Rolling Stones trying to imitate The Rolling Stones, if you know what I mean. Keith trying to be the Keith everybody expects him to be and so on. And the songs are perhaps too obvious. When compared to other rock albums they're great but when compared to other Stones albums they're pretty weak.

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GumbootCloggeroo
I love how people are superanalyzing GRRR when all it is really is a current compilation package for the new label that they are now on because Forty Licks went out of print and they have nothing current in stores. Plus, it's their 50th anniversary and they need a career-spanning product. That's it, folks.

+1

Oh...oh....

what?....

is it possible??

yes.....yes......oh my God....

Another complain thread.....

I need to cough...

My eyes.....

Hurting...

So hard...

Complaining overdose...

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Doxa
Or it is just that the guys got old, had achieved everything, and had much more in their lives to live for and do than just trying to be a full committed "Rolling Stone" trying to make another masterpiece album or a hit record?

I'll go with this in part. I heard an interview with one of the Eagles years ago, I think Henley, who summed up the band's mood after the Hotel California album as one of having slain all the dragons, and having no real drive to go forward from there.

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
We get a ton of archive releases, which I have enjoyed very much - WAY more than new albums.

We get two new songs, some shows this year, a possible "tour" next year AND a compilation.

Oh, and we get a 50th anniversay book, an art exhibition with unseen photos AND a documentary film.

I can't see why we need to be frustrated?

Not me either - I think the last two yaers or so - since the re-release of EXILE - has been the most thrilling years for decades what goes for new, official Stones products. Almost a dream come true. But I think I am in minority here, at least if one reads the collective disappointmet over GRRR! (which was the original inspiration behind my post).

- Doxa

Doxa, at least I´m with you

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carlorossi

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Doxa
Or it is just that the guys got old, had achieved everything, and had much more in their lives to live for and do than just trying to be a full committed "Rolling Stone" trying to make another masterpiece album or a hit record?

I'll go with this in part. I heard an interview with one of the Eagles years ago, I think Henley, who summed up the band's mood after the Hotel California album as one of having slain all the dragons, and having no real drive to go forward from there.

Yup, and those guys were an average age of just under 30 when Hotel California came out!

Doxa just forgot the Stones had 650 concerts betwen 1989 and 2007.


A guy wrote something similar in my blog. and I had to proove the Stones had 2, 3 or 4 years without any work. The guys had work like band in something like 46 years.

and the guys say the Stones didn´t work. :-)

the Stones wrote songs, rehrsal, play live, they produce albuns ... dvds, docs, books.. they need to do all that crap for tours (stage, merchandising, etc).

Sorry... but is impressive how these guys worked in the last 50 years. really impressive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-09-06 22:21 by carlostones10.

It is impossible to truly compare an artists later works with their earlier works mainly because the older ones were released when music seemed more important to us fans. We are so quick to judge these days and back then it seemed we listened many times and let the music slip into our consciousness with repetition and time.

Just the Stone's radio play I unintentionally heard back when was more than I have ever listened to Babylon, for instance.

Creativity and production are best served when men are young, full of piss and vinegar and other chemical fuels. What I would like to see now is some maturely crafted songs no matter how long they take to compose and record properly. It's easier to produce alot of music when you are constantly jamming and sleeping takes a back seat. Those days are over for the Stones, now they have other skills built up and what I hope they do with them is craft superb new tunes individually or together, songs that hit me in the gut and make me say, yep those boys are in a league of their own, which of course they still are. peace

Stones can not be compared to anyone. Their status is above any comparison.

(we are talking about rocknroll not Bach or Mozart....needless to say...)

Everytime you compare Stones to anyone (in terms of volume of works or work flow or any other aspect of their career) you are comparing Shakespeare to Dan Brown or Ken Follet, for instance.

May be I am a bit fan(atic...)....

Doxa, you´ve done an excellent analysis of the situation, and i really agree with you in most of your concepts, but, as carlostones said, you didnt take in account the live playing, the mega tours.
In MY personal opinion, Steel Wheels tour had no spirit in it, it was kind of soulless, but amazingly, both VL and B2B were GREAT, with the band playing like lions (with the exception of Ronnie), Forty Licks tour was good and they had a great decline for ABB.

Man, in those years we got STRIPPED, a real highlight in the band´s history!! Is there any fan that doesn´t like it?

For me , the Stones should have explored some different thing, some "back to the rooots",Chuck Berry/Muddy album like Mc Cartney and Clapton did.
Maybe now would be a good time for it. Finish with what they started , like a life parabola

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carlorossi

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Doxa
Or it is just that the guys got old, had achieved everything, and had much more in their lives to live for and do than just trying to be a full committed "Rolling Stone" trying to make another masterpiece album or a hit record?

I'll go with this in part. I heard an interview with one of the Eagles years ago, I think Henley, who summed up the band's mood after the Hotel California album as one of having slain all the dragons, and having no real drive to go forward from there.

I think arguably much the same could said about the Stones post-SG. They'd made their comeback from a perceived mid-70s malaise with an album that in some ways both re-defined them and at the same time returned them to their garage r&b/rock roots. SG was a monster and the sense of urgency that partly drove those sessions (Keith's possible jail time) was removed. In some ways the band "painted themselves in a corner" with the success and sound of SG. Much like Exile there was no possible way to follow it up. Add that to the apparent personal conflicts and differing ideas of recording, sound, musical direction between the Glimmers as well as Mick's distate for both Keith and Ronnie's indulgences and you have the perfect storm for the band's crisis of identity.

ER is mistakenly viewed to be SG pt. 2 or just reheated outtakes from the SG sessions. But both views are wrong. ER is a much more eclectic mix of songs and the majority of them came out of the Compass Point/Pathe Marconi sessions of '79. After ER (with the exception of DW) it's been pretty much the Jagger show as far as musical direction, recording techniques, who has been driving the plane-Keith's been more a passenger than a co-pilot. It could be argued that's been the case, with a few exceptions, since Exile.

That being said, I'd still look at UC as when things really went south. ER was a #1 album with a couple of hits so he could still hold onto the validity of using the Stones as his vehicle. But when their first true music statement of the '80s essentially tanked (by then Stones standards) and there is no doubt that with all the money tied up in elaborate videos, marketing, updated sound, a holidy season release that everyone-label, band, industry execs all were anticipating a monster multi-platinum #1 for UC. Instead it swooned, Jagger saw the writing on the wall, and went solo because he probably felt the band, the Glimmer Twins partnership, etc... had run its course. After giving another shot in '85 but seeing Charlie become a junkie, Woodie a freebase addict and Keith soaked in JD and coke-he'd truly had enough. By this point he was starting to live pretty clean so he had no time for other's vices, particularly if they interfered with the quality of the band's material.

DW was Keith's Appomatix or Waterloo. He challenged Jagger, trying to force a tour. But Mick said no emphatically-just like did in '79 and '84 and once again Keith had to relent and thus lighting another fuse to the timebomb that became WWIII. When they reconvened in '89 it was a much different playing field. Mick called the shots and Keith took role as lieutenant. Officially, the band the Rolling Stones, as fans knew them were through. In their place, perhaps with the exception of '94-'99 (the Stones were active and a functioning band for that half decade), rose up Rolling Stones Inc.-more about business than music, more an institution than a band.

In the end Mick won. And it's possible that in the end, the Stones and their fans are lesser because of it. I'm not saying that the post TTY years haven't had some great music and tours, because there have been both. However, it all became more about songcraft than song creation, style over substance, perfection over improvisation, and glitz over grit. Once the unique dynamic of Jagger/Richards was lost and the pedulum swung too far to one (DW) or the other (AB the results became more mediocre than stellar.

It could be said that the true apex of the Stones as a "band" was 1969 and Let It Bleed. Even by Sticky Fingers there were signs of a slight split in the Jagger/Richards songwriting foundation, which eroded slowly over time until a decade later when sometime during the recording of ER, the first break occurred.

It will be interesting to hear if the new songs sound like Jagger and Richards solo songs or if some real collaboration took place.