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DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

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TeddyB1018

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DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

_________________________________________

You were in the studio with em. bloody awesome. Hats off to you for having the experience.

However still ... that harp never made it to that song ..

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IanBillen

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TeddyB1018

Quote
DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

_________________________________________

You were in the studio with em. bloody awesome. Hats off to you for having the experience.

However still ... that harp never made it to that song ..

Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-24 10:11 by TeddyB1018.

Nothing wrong with Flip The a Switch, would love to hear the 10 minute version...

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Maindefender
Nothing wrong with Flip The a Switch, would love to hear the 10 minute version...

+1

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24FPS

But you admit you can't really disagree with my points. And basically I'm paraphrasing Benjamin Franklin, 'Expect the worst, then you can only be pleasantly surprised.'


Can Keith still play good, funky rhythm guitar? It was always his fills that mattered, and I'm not sure he adds much to a record anymore. Blue & Lonesome is almost all Ronnie (& Clapton) and Mick, and some good Charlie. Keith doesn't even sing on any of the tracks, which shocked me. I always thought that was contractual. And since they are loathe to bring in outside musicians on an album of originals, I don't see the old Stones magic being reignited. (Which was with Clapton on B&L).

Those that are happy with an album that sounds like a weak echo of the past are the same ones that rejoice when they get through a stage song now without messing it up. Steel Wheels is being revealed with time as their true swan song, with Slipping Away their coda. I'm not saying it all fell apart because Bill split, but he definitely saw the writing on the wall. I'm really looking forward to the On The Air CD. Hell, Rolling Stone magazine may not even last long enough to have their newest album be hailed as,'Their greatest since Exile'.

No fan wants more great Stones music than I. But I rarely, if ever, put on Voodoo, Bridge, or Bang. But I do play Blue & Lonesome. I can forgive the pedestrian bass, just to hear some low down dirty blues.

Haha... I guess I have lately changed the club of 'whiners and naysayers' to that of 'cheerleaders'... Is it me getting old and 'losing my touch' (sic) or just not caring so much any longer (to take the Stones seriously) - or is that the same ? - but any case I think I have a more relaxed approach to their doings lately than I had before. For me BLUE & LONESOME was a huge, positive surprise (my favourite from them since UNDERCOVER), and I really dig "Gotta Get A Grip" and even "Doom & Gloom" is a more fresh sounding effort than anything they did in A BIGGER BANG (or FORTY LICKS). I guess "Plundered My Soul" opened the path to my current 'positivism' (not that there is nothing more current than the two Micks). Add there that I really liked the last concert I saw from them (Stockholm 2014). Oh yes I did.

But about BLUE & LONESOME and Keith's contribution - or supposed lack of it - to it. To me what he does - or not - in that album is an artistic choice. That he doesn't sing at all goes hand in hand with the originals and also with the band they started with: Chicago blues doesn't need some back-up singers or 'harmonies', quite the contrary. The fact that he didn'r sing even tune by his own is also a part of the 'authentic', even 'purist' nature of the album - they wanted each track to sound like The Rolling Stones blues band - and Jagger's voice is an essential part of that sound (like the dual guitars, the harp, etc.). And listening how inspired and focused Jagger sounds there, I am sure Keith was more than willing to give all the room for him in vocal duties - you know, if Jagger finally sings like Keith wishes him to do (I think he rightly is proud for inspiring Mick), and with a material they both love dearly, wouldn't it be a bit stupid to say 'hey, man, give the mike here, I do that one'.

What goes for Keith's guitar contribution, yeah, it is true that he doesn't stand out as much as usually we have expected from him, but I also take that more as an artistic choice than degenerated skills. I feel his presence in every song clearly - what he does is tasteful and focused (even oddily 'disciplined'), serving the song perfectly. To me that is an example of my favourite Keith Richards doctrine: "I shine when the band shines". Thanks to this approach, which enables to give Ronnie more room, and thereby to integrate more to the band sound, I think the whole band sounds more a cohesive and focused unit the way they haven't sounded for years (or even decades) in a record.

Surely Keith's skills as a guitarist aren't like they used to be, but I think CROSSEYED HEART proves that the touch is still there. Still today there is not many guitarists in the world who can sound so effective as he does, despite his technical shortcomings or limitations (as we know, technicality, thankfully, has never been his forte). Yeah, it is a couple of years old stuff now, and anything can happen in a rather short time for the guys of his age, but I wouldn't count him out (if there is anything I have learned from that guy is that don't ever count that cat out -I also have made that mistake more than once ).

As some people here might remember I am not the biggest fan of CROSSEYED HEART but there is still lots of great things to notice. The most important of being the 'feel' the album in each of its songs expresses. It could be that for my taste the album relies too much on that 'feel' component and Keith's charismatic persona - in his vocals and guitar parts - by the cost of actually good song-writing and focus (a criterion for which, of course, is subjective), but let's say that is my problem (not having the needed acquired taste).

Anyway, as far the Stones albums since STEEL WHEELS go, I agree that most of the stuff in them is rather mediocre and forgettable, and it is not realistic to except any sudden re-birth in creativity to lift them up to eternal greatness again. But optimistic in me hopes that the long break they have had since A BIGGER BANG can actually be a good thing: it been such a long time from their last real activity that they might have even forgotten some of their old 'by-the-numbers' routines, and like BLUE & LONESOME shows, they have needed almost to start from the beginning and re-learn the game again, which might help give to the results some new fresh spark. This is what we cheerleaders think!

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-24 13:52 by Doxa.

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TeddyB1018

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IanBillen

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TeddyB1018

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DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

_________________________________________

You were in the studio with em. bloody awesome. Hats off to you for having the experience.

However still ... that harp never made it to that song ..

Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

______________________________________________



I got it ...very darn cool to know!



Ian

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TeddyB1018

Quote
IanBillen

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TeddyB1018

Quote
DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

_________________________________________

You were in the studio with em. bloody awesome. Hats off to you for having the experience.

However still ... that harp never made it to that song ..

Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

Wow, that must have been a thrill to follow!

It would be interesting to discuss in more detail the Stones working 'methods' and variance of them along the years - for example, which songs actually are those 'a guy comes up with a riff and see what happens', and to what extent they actually have done that in the past - but I guess we need a whole new thread for it.

- Doxa

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Doxa

Quote
TeddyB1018

Quote
IanBillen

Quote
TeddyB1018

Quote
DandelionPowderman
They were playing and recording that way on Flip The Switch as well, according to Teddy.

Ha! Exactly what I was thinking when I read Doxa’s post, which I agree with. On BTB they had a mixture, some done Mick’s way and some done Keith’s. On Flip the Switch, when I was in the studio, Mick seemed to be amenable to being one of the jamming musicians, blowing harp.

_________________________________________

You were in the studio with em. bloody awesome. Hats off to you for having the experience.

However still ... that harp never made it to that song ..

Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

Wow, that must have been a thrill to follow!

It would be interesting to discuss in more detail the Stones working 'methods' and variance of them along the years - for example, which songs actually are those 'a guy comes up with a riff and see what happens', and to what extent they actually have done that in the past - but I guess we need a whole new thread for it.

- Doxa

I am rewatching Ken Burns' wonderful baseball series. Oh what a joy it would be if he took on the Rolling Stones. I remember seeing him once in Keene NH many years ago and congratulating him on his work. I will be in Keene again later today and will keep my eye out for him.....

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TeddyB1018
Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

@Teddy,
in case you know this: can you tell us more about the "extracting" bit? "Extracted" in the sense that they lifted portions from that 10 min recording and constructed the album track from those lifted portions ("cut it down" to 3,5 min)? Or "extracted" in the sense that they listened to it and said something like "OK, let's start with this part, then go over to that part, ..." and so on, and then record (i.e., play) the new, short, arrangement?

According to what I read on the Steve Hoffman forum, the B2B sessions resulted in several hundred tape reels, so anything seems possible.

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doitywoik

Quote
TeddyB1018
Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

@Teddy,
in case you know this: can you tell us more about the "extracting" bit? "Extracted" in the sense that they lifted portions from that 10 min recording and constructed the album track from those lifted portions ("cut it down" to 3,5 min)? Or "extracted" in the sense that they listened to it and said something like "OK, let's start with this part, then go over to that part, ..." and so on, and then record (i.e., play) the new, short, arrangement?

According to what I read on the Steve Hoffman forum, the B2B sessions resulted in several hundred tape reels, so anything seems possible.

...and maybe Teddy listened to the misterious song called "High or Low"!!

Quote
Doxa

Quote
24FPS

But you admit you can't really disagree with my points. And basically I'm paraphrasing Benjamin Franklin, 'Expect the worst, then you can only be pleasantly surprised.'


Can Keith still play good, funky rhythm guitar? It was always his fills that mattered, and I'm not sure he adds much to a record anymore. Blue & Lonesome is almost all Ronnie (& Clapton) and Mick, and some good Charlie. Keith doesn't even sing on any of the tracks, which shocked me. I always thought that was contractual. And since they are loathe to bring in outside musicians on an album of originals, I don't see the old Stones magic being reignited. (Which was with Clapton on B&L).

Those that are happy with an album that sounds like a weak echo of the past are the same ones that rejoice when they get through a stage song now without messing it up. Steel Wheels is being revealed with time as their true swan song, with Slipping Away their coda. I'm not saying it all fell apart because Bill split, but he definitely saw the writing on the wall. I'm really looking forward to the On The Air CD. Hell, Rolling Stone magazine may not even last long enough to have their newest album be hailed as,'Their greatest since Exile'.

No fan wants more great Stones music than I. But I rarely, if ever, put on Voodoo, Bridge, or Bang. But I do play Blue & Lonesome. I can forgive the pedestrian bass, just to hear some low down dirty blues.

Haha... I guess I have lately changed the club of 'whiners and naysayers' to that of 'cheerleaders'... Is it me getting old and 'losing my touch' (sic) or just not caring so much any longer (to take the Stones seriously) - or is that the same ? - but any case I think I have a more relaxed approach to their doings lately than I had before. For me BLUE & LONESOME was a huge, positive surprise (my favourite from them since UNDERCOVER), and I really dig "Gotta Get A Grip" and even "Doom & Gloom" is a more fresh sounding effort than anything they did in A BIGGER BANG (or FORTY LICKS). I guess "Plundered My Soul" opened the path to my current 'positivism' (not that there is nothing more current than the two Micks). Add there that I really liked the last concert I saw from them (Stockholm 2014). Oh yes I did.

But about BLUE & LONESOME and Keith's contribution - or supposed lack of it - to it. To me what he does - or not - in that album is an artistic choice. That he doesn't sing at all goes hand in hand with the originals and also with the band they started with: Chicago blues doesn't need some back-up singers or 'harmonies', quite the contrary. The fact that he didn'r sing even tune by his own is also a part of the 'authentic', even 'purist' nature of the album - they wanted each track to sound like The Rolling Stones blues band - and Jagger's voice is an essential part of that sound (like the dual guitars, the harp, etc.). And listening how inspired and focused Jagger sounds there, I am sure Keith was more than willing to give all the room for him in vocal duties - you know, if Jagger finally sings like Keith wishes him to do (I think he rightly is proud for inspiring Mick), and with a material they both love dearly, wouldn't it be a bit stupid to say 'hey, man, give the mike here, I do that one'.

What goes for Keith's guitar contribution, yeah, it is true that he doesn't stand out as much as usually we have expected from him, but I also take that more as an artistic choice than degenerated skills. I feel his presence in every song clearly - what he does is tasteful and focused (even oddily 'disciplined'), serving the song perfectly. To me that is an example of my favourite Keith Richards doctrine: "I shine when the band shines". Thanks to this approach, which enables to give Ronnie more room, and thereby to integrate more to the band sound, I think the whole band sounds more a cohesive and focused unit the way they haven't sounded for years (or even decades) in a record.

Surely Keith's skills as a guitarist aren't like they used to be, but I think CROSSEYED HEART proves that the touch is still there. Still today there is not many guitarists in the world who can sound so effective as he does, despite his technical shortcomings or limitations (as we know, technicality, thankfully, has never been his forte). Yeah, it is a couple of years old stuff now, and anything can happen in a rather short time for the guys of his age, but I wouldn't count him out (if there is anything I have learned from that guy is that don't ever count that cat out -I also have made that mistake more than once ).

As some people here might remember I am not the biggest fan of CROSSEYED HEART but there is still lots of great things to notice. The most important of being the 'feel' the album in each of its songs expresses. It could be that for my taste the album relies too much on that 'feel' component and Keith's charismatic persona - in his vocals and guitar parts - by the cost of actually good song-writing and focus (a criterion for which, of course, is subjective), but let's say that is my problem (not having the needed acquired taste).

Anyway, as far the Stones albums since STEEL WHEELS go, I agree that most of the stuff in them is rather mediocre and forgettable, and it is not realistic to except any sudden re-birth in creativity to lift them up to eternal greatness again. But optimistic in me hopes that the long break they have had since A BIGGER BANG can actually be a good thing: it been such a long time from their last real activity that they might have even forgotten some of their old 'by-the-numbers' routines, and like BLUE & LONESOME shows, they have needed almost to start from the beginning and re-learn the game again, which might help give to the results some new fresh spark. This is what we cheerleaders think!

- Doxa

Meet your own mocking words a few pages back then, as you addressed other posters (some admitttedly very minor) by them. You, of course, will answer that you present your revised views. But, still!

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Doxa
I sometimes wonder how much kicks some do get from repeating again and again in any thread considering whatever that "how much I like or not Jagger's or Richards's recent solo stuff or them as musicians/persons', no matter how irrelevant to the given discussion that opinion is. But me, me, me!!!! I have an opinion!!!!!!

But a good note is that the Stones will - most likely - release a new album. That's great. Let's review it when it is released.

- Doxa

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doitywoik

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TeddyB1018
Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

@Teddy,
in case you know this: can you tell us more about the "extracting" bit? "Extracted" in the sense that they lifted portions from that 10 min recording and constructed the album track from those lifted portions ("cut it down" to 3,5 min)? Or "extracted" in the sense that they listened to it and said something like "OK, let's start with this part, then go over to that part, ..." and so on, and then record (i.e., play) the new, short, arrangement?

According to what I read on the Steve Hoffman forum, the B2B sessions resulted in several hundred tape reels, so anything seems possible.

Quite a few years ago I was hanging out at my friend's studio in New Orleans. Harold Brown was drumming on some tracks. We got to talking and he brought up War's Low Rider. They recorded the song for 10 minutes or so. At some point in the song, he dropped a stick. He came back in but got the timing wrong. After so long they turned the beat around to the original.

THAT'S the part they used, the screw up. So the original song idea was not used because the screw up was better.

So in a sense, that's possibly what TeddyB is talking about (although a screw up probably didn't happen). Listen to Miss You - it's hacked up to make it the way we know it. Everything Is Turning To Gold is hacked up. Some songs are edited - heavily - to make them work. I'm going to guess that that is what TeddyB is talking about with Flip The Switch - it got edited. It's possible they may've done another take of it having figured out some structure by editing the 10 minute version but from what TeddyB says, that's not the case.

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Witness

Meet your own mocking words a few pages back then, as you addressed other posters (some admitttedly very minor) by them. You, of course, will answer that you present your revised views. But, still!

Haha, a good one Witness! And you are right. Guilty as charged!

The idea behind my earlier remark that I am just so frustrated seeing a topic of whatever turning into some kind of Mick vs. Keith controversy, of which certain suspects have a very strong opinion about (in which there is nothing wrong per se, but it just gets boring if anything is to be seen through that interpretation and repeated again and again - it just turns into a campaign). But I admit, I didn't choose my words very well, and I hope you didn't think I was directing them at you, Witness. I sometimes shoot from the hip, sorry.

- Doxa

Very well, Doxa!

(But I needed to find a suitable outlet for my earlier reaction, as it was then).

Perhaps this is what is meant by the approach - not just being in a room together but how they are in the room together:

As the band explained in a new profile piece in The New York Times, the record took a turn when they showed up at Mark Knopfler's British Grove Studios. The room they'd booked was outfitted with a Decca tree — basically a tall overhead mic array — and it prompted some conversation about how to best record the new material from an engineering standpoint.

[ultimateclassicrock.com]

It was just the naive question if Teddy could give us a few more details on their working procedure re "Flip the Switch" ...

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GasLightStreet
THAT'S the part they used, the screw up. So the original song idea was not used because the screw up was better.

Sound like the story of the cowbell intro of Honky Tonk Women

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doitywoik
It was just the naive question if Teddy could give us a few more details on their working procedure re "Flip the Switch" ...

Uh...ok.

Songs are written differently. Some take 15 minutes... Some take a year or more to fully develop.


More often than not.... Artists that have two band members writing songs write them differently and have varying ways that the songs come about between them.


That's just how it is. I think Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too much thought and skepticism is being given on who is writing what in there and how. I am quite sure they are both involved and both contributing / doing their part in one way or another.

I'm sure they have worked on songs together and maybe some apart .. They always have. No big deal and nothing has changed.

So,according to Heinz the Stones will come back in the studio in ten days...

Posted by: heinz57 ()
Date: November 14, 2017 23:18
The plan as of now is that the Stones would go back into the studio in December to work on the new album. The aim would be to finish it up by spring, in time for the tour which would start in May. Of course, plans can always change.

I hope the plans haven't changed!

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mailexile67
So,according to Heinz the Stones will come back in the studio in ten days...

December 31 is still "in December" so it may be anywhere between 7 and 38 days before they go back into the studio if that info was correct. He didn't say ON December 1, just IN December.

Rod

Yeah, the sessions will probably begin December 23 ;-)

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Monsoon Ragoon
Yeah, the sessions will probably begin December 23 ;-)

B&L sessions: ca. 3rd-15th December in London.
Maybe they'll make the same period!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-25 17:50 by KRiffhard.

Das spart Heizkosten daheim.

I'm a sucker for new material but if they're not happy with it, keep working on it...and if it means it will never come out that's OK too. I shudder to think of GGaG or EL having to be played live during the NF tour if they'd put them out under their name.

Quote
doitywoik

Quote
TeddyB1018
Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

@Teddy,
in case you know this: can you tell us more about the "extracting" bit? "Extracted" in the sense that they lifted portions from that 10 min recording and constructed the album track from those lifted portions ("cut it down" to 3,5 min)? Or "extracted" in the sense that they listened to it and said something like "OK, let's start with this part, then go over to that part, ..." and so on, and then record (i.e., play) the new, short, arrangement?

According to what I read on the Steve Hoffman forum, the B2B sessions resulted in several hundred tape reels, so anything seems possible.

Got a link handy? Other than the (sometimes dubious) stuff written in "Old Gods Almost Dead" very little has filtered from these sessions.

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio

@gotdablouse,
you're lucky, i could retrieve the respective post:

[forums.stevehoffman.tv]

Quote
doitywoik

Quote
TeddyB1018
Yep. But he was in there with the other guys, working up that riff into a long jam, over ten minutes, from which they extracted the song.

@Teddy,
in case you know this: can you tell us more about the "extracting" bit? "Extracted" in the sense that they lifted portions from that 10 min recording and constructed the album track from those lifted portions ("cut it down" to 3,5 min)? Or "extracted" in the sense that they listened to it and said something like "OK, let's start with this part, then go over to that part, ..." and so on, and then record (i.e., play) the new, short, arrangement?

According to what I read on the Steve Hoffman forum, the B2B sessions resulted in several hundred tape reels, so anything seems possible.

In the case of Flip the Swtich they edited (“hacked up”) the take itself (which was several takes in, per Glyn Johns’ old complaints) into a four or five minute song and Jagger wrote lyrics at a later time. Sort of the Some Girls Sessions model, as Gas Light Street suggested.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-11-26 10:17 by TeddyB1018.

Quote
KRiffhard
Posted by: heinz57 ()
Date: November 14, 2017 23:18
The plan as of now is that the Stones would go back into the studio in December to work on the new album. The aim would be to finish it up by spring, in time for the tour which would start in May. Of course, plans can always change.

I hope the plans haven't changed!

Well, Keith often checks into the UK in December for a pre Christmas visit to his 'English family'.
Globetropping Mick is also more likely to be in England then, for the same reason.

Jan/Feb seems to be holiday in the sun time. Can't see Keith nipping over to Mustique from his holiday villa to do some recording (or composing) with his twin somehow.

Quote
TeddyB1018
In the case of Flip the Swtich they edited (“hacked up”) the take itself (which was several takes in, per Glyn Johns’ old complaints) into a four or five minute song and Jagger wrote lyrics at a later time. Sort of the Some Girls Sessions model, as Gas Light Street suggested.

Thanks, Teddy!