This is no time for relativism or defaitism as I said earlier. It's a matter of state security. France must take precautions. Which they already have done. This was an act of war and must be dealt with accordingly. EU, Nato and the US must come together and defeat ISIL once and for all. We can't sit back and watch this murder sect slaughter innocent people across Europe. If necessary it's also time to close Europe's borders.

The USA is also involved in this since ISIL is a by-product of the Bush/Cheney war in Iraq. That war led to, apart from a bloodbath, a collapsed state in Iraq. Not to freedom and democracy which the failed Bush/Cheney regime tried to make us believe.

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Rokyfan

This is a new group that arose from the ashes of US policy and has never been taken seriously, has never been the effort of a serious effort against it by the west (now it will). So, I dont know why ýou say that action against them creates more. That is just made up. We have had minimal if any success against Isis. We have killed a few. They have been enormously successful and that is what they recruit with. The thing that Bush/Cheney did was give them land. That is what needs to be removed. It is not a matter of destroying an ideology; it is the land base that allows them to do what they do.

Fortunately M. Hollande seems to understand: "la France sera impitoyable" (France will be unmercyful)

This represents, as you say, a fundamental change in policy, one that is needed. And I am no right-winger, I blame almost the whole thing on Bush/Cheney and their lying warmongering driven by oil profits and macho revenge. But that doesn't change what is needed to stop this group.

Well I'm sure I'm not the only one who is having trouble keeping track of the difference between Al Qaeda, ISIS and all the other groups operating over there. That seems to be one of the problems, so many distinct factions and deciding which ones to support or oppose. We support one group, arm them for our own agenda then a few years later they become the enemy and we are fighting them with the same weapons we gave them. I think it's always been the nature of some Middle Eastern groups to be so chameleon in their nature and one of our mistakes not to recognize that our allies today may easily become our enemies tomorrow.

I guess my concern is just what unmerciful really looks like. I mean how big could the group that planned and carried out this attack in France really be? Ten terrorists with maybe twice that number of conspirators. Say even ten or twenty times that number of conspirators. In any case the number is likely relatively small. How do you be unmerciful to that group in particular? Certainly not by mass bombing and killing everyone who you suspect is sympathetic to their cause. That is madness, imo. These are the kind of things best dealt with by using special forces, to carry out precision attacks on specific perpetrators. Overreaction is indeed one of the goals of terrorism as it so clearly points out the repressive nature of the opposition and indeed allows more recruitment and promotes more extremism.

And you seem to contradict yourself if you believe that the Bush/Cheney war efforts are the cause of the whole problem but suggest more of the same type of strategy will fix the problem. If our past efforts at intervention and destruction created such surge in terrorists and extremists, how can you truthfully deny this type of action against them creates more. Just because it is a "new" group with a new name? I don't buy it.

Finally I believe oil, revenge and democracy were/are not the only reasons we chose to intervene over there. Perhaps only when we can make peace more profitable than war we will truly see an end to this madness and find some resolution to it all.

Still filled with sadness over this.

Just learned that a young college student form Cal State Long Beach on a study abroad program is one of the deceased.
That hit's a bit close to home as my 22 year old niece was on a study abroad program with Santa Barbara City College in Paris just two years ago.

Condolences to all of the families of these victims - devastating.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

"Gee, maybe if we all just leave that bully in the schoolyard alone, he'll quit picking on us"...

OK I'm done now. I'll go back to enjoying my freedom earned from a hard days work and loyalty to my fellow man and God...attack me with words all you want atheists..at least when I say my prayers and I lay my head down at night, I can sleep well.

Good night to all and best wishes and prayers for your safety and well being.

...and apart from terrorism there is another vital reason to defeat ISIL: The flow of migration from, especially, the Middle East to Europe is too big right now.
Impossible to handle in the long run. The only way to stop it is to defeat ISIL.

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shadooby
I am SICK and freekin TIRED of all this POLITICALLY CORRECT talk...

No matter your politics or religion...THE WESTERN WORLD IS UNITED, you are either with US or THEM...they (IS/ISIS/ISIL) need to, and will be, D E S T R O Y E D ! ! !

...and all you "we're just as bad a them" PIECES OF [SORRY BV]...go ahead and make friends with those SAVAGES, I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms...UNBELIEVABLE!

LONG LIVE FREEDOM

Even Tony Blair admitted on UK TV last week that the invasion of Iraq gave rise to Isis.

Ok, 'you've' got a shark in the pool, you have to deal with the shark, but, I suggest, you must also remember and deal with the person (people) who put the shark in there.

The invasion of Iraq wasn't even an honest mistake, they deliberately lied to the whole world about WMD* and they (Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al) should be in prison in the Hague.

* Some people had the intelligence to know they were lying before they even fired the first cruise missile and a million + of us protested on the streets of London, you may remember.............

(I knew they were lying the moment I saw Conan Powell 'assuring' the UN that the 'information' on WMD was 'sound'. The look of unease on his face was unmistakable).

You never know, maybe some of these people who are so keen to join Isis now saw that type of justice, maybe they wouldn't feel so motivated.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 01:50 by EddieByword.

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shadooby
"Gee, maybe if we all just leave that bully in the schoolyard alone, he'll quit picking on us"...

OK I'm done now. I'll go back to enjoying my freedom earned from a hard days work and loyalty to my fellow man and God...attack me with words all you want atheists..at least when I say my prayers and I lay my head down at night, I can sleep well.

Good night to all and best wishes and prayers for your safety and well being.

Cheers to the prayers and well being part shadooby! Perhaps a more clear understanding of who the bully is would be helpful for all of us and an ability to look at our fellow man as all of humanity not just the ones the look and act like us. You can't help think that if some external global threat like an alien invasion took place it would unite the world against a common foe and we would be cheering on these now enemies for fighting for what has become "our side".

I better quit too before I start to sound like I am apologizing for those awful terrorists, I'm certainly not, I hope the actual conspirators are made to answer for their crimes. Viva La France! peace

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EddieByword

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shadooby
I am SICK and freekin TIRED of all this POLITICALLY CORRECT talk...

No matter your politics or religion...THE WESTERN WORLD IS UNITED, you are either with US or THEM...they (IS/ISIS/ISIL) need to, and will be, D E S T R O Y E D ! ! !

...and all you "we're just as bad a them" PIECES OF [SORRY BV]...go ahead and make friends with those SAVAGES, I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms...UNBELIEVABLE!

LONG LIVE FREEDOM

Even Tony Blair admitted on UK TV last week that the invasion of Iraq gave rise to Isis.

Ok, 'you've' got a shark in the pool, you have to deal with the shark, but, I suggest, you must also remember and deal with the person (people) who put the shark in there.

The invasion of Iraq wasn't even an honest mistake, they deliberately lied to the whole world about WMD* and they (Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al) should be in prison in the Hague.

* Some people had the intelligence to know they were lying before they even fired the first cruise missile and a million + of us protested on the streets of london, you may remember.............

(I knew they were lying the moment I saw Conan Powell 'assuring' the UN that the 'information' on WMD was 'sound'. The look of 'unease' on his face was unmistakable).

You never know, maybe some of these people who are so keen to join Isis saw that type of justice, maybe they wouldn't feel so motivated.

Hillary LIED...Ted Kennedy LIED...they were both on the intelliegence comittee that provided the admin with that info...google it, it's all over the place if you were too young (or have an agenda) to remember...SO FUNNY HOW THEY ALWAYS LEAVE THAT OUT!

ALSO FUNNY HOW THEY ALWAYS LEAVE OUT THE FACT THAT WMD'S WERE IN FACT FOUND IN IRAQ AND ALSO FOUND TO HAVE BEEN TRANSPORTED TO WHERE...SYRIA

MY POINT CONTINUES TO BE MADE

NICE TRY GO JOIN THE TERRORISTS LOSER

There is a huge difference between the war in Iraq and the situation with this new Islamic State in the Middle East. The war in Iraq wasn't called for and was unnecessary. The Bush/Cheney regime even lied to the UN to make it happen. The war against The Islamic State is certainly called for and must take place sooner or later. For all sorts of reasons. Leaders in Europe are aware of this and, hopefully, the US President and his cabinet also. And Nato. There are just causes to combat ISIL.

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Stoneage
There is a huge difference between the war in Iraq and the situation with this new Islamic State in the Middle East. The war in Iraq wasn't called for and was unnecessary. The Bush/Cheney regime even lied to the UN to make it happen. The war against The Islamic State is certainly called for and must take place sooner or later. For all sorts of reasons. Leaders in Europe are aware of this and, hopefully, the US President and his cabinet also. And Nato. There are just causes to combat ISIL.

Ha, the US president said yesterday "IS is contained and on the run"...tell that to the Russian crash victims and Paris...don't count on the USA with this bafoon in charge, friends.

Now they are going to curb refugee migration into Europe and this all makes Trump stronger. Even Democrat chatter/ rhetoric is now hinting towards banging the war drum. Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate! Words matter!

Just asking..... Have The Stones said anything about this?

"No dope smoking no beer sold after 12 o'clock"

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shadooby

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EddieByword

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shadooby
I am SICK and freekin TIRED of all this POLITICALLY CORRECT talk...

No matter your politics or religion...THE WESTERN WORLD IS UNITED, you are either with US or THEM...they (IS/ISIS/ISIL) need to, and will be, D E S T R O Y E D ! ! !

...and all you "we're just as bad a them" PIECES OF [SORRY BV]...go ahead and make friends with those SAVAGES, I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms...UNBELIEVABLE!

LONG LIVE FREEDOM

Even Tony Blair admitted on UK TV last week that the invasion of Iraq gave rise to Isis.

Ok, 'you've' got a shark in the pool, you have to deal with the shark, but, I suggest, you must also remember and deal with the person (people) who put the shark in there.

The invasion of Iraq wasn't even an honest mistake, they deliberately lied to the whole world about WMD* and they (Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al) should be in prison in the Hague.

* Some people had the intelligence to know they were lying before they even fired the first cruise missile and a million + of us protested on the streets of london, you may remember.............

(I knew they were lying the moment I saw Conan Powell 'assuring' the UN that the 'information' on WMD was 'sound'. The look of 'unease' on his face was unmistakable).

You never know, maybe some of these people who are so keen to join Isis saw that type of justice, maybe they wouldn't feel so motivated.

Hillary LIED...Ted Kennedy LIED...they were both on the intelliegence comittee that provided the admin with that info...google it, it's all over the place if you were too young (or have an agenda) to remember...SO FUNNY HOW THEY ALWAYS LEAVE THAT OUT! (Not too young nor have an agenda other than to acknowledge truth) They all lied)

ALSO FUNNY HOW THEY ALWAYS LEAVE OUT THE FACT THAT WMD'S WERE IN FACT FOUND IN IRAQ AND ALSO FOUND TO HAVE BEEN TRANSPORTED TO WHERE...SYRIA (you're the first person I've ever 'heard' claim that - every reference I ever heard on TV since they found none is there were none)

MY POINT CONTINUES TO BE MADE

NICE TRY GO JOIN THE TERRORISTS LOSER

Cause and effect.........(As I said a few threads back, when they invaded Iraq on a false premise they went into hell and when Saddam Hussein was executed the door was shut behind them - he was, irrespective of his own crimes elsehwere, he was keeping a lid on what is now Isis) ............loser ?...no,........just objective and not an hysterical *%$^"&**%.........enjoy your nervous breakdown..........

And just for the record, I am not a terrorist sympathiser despite your insulting, demented and dimwitted comment, their methods are those of religious psychotics and if 100 F15s, drones and Typhoons do some business over them tonight I won't lose any sleep............

Also, your agressive outburst reminds me of the chicken and egg conundrum, which violent ^$$&£$%s came first, the Neo Cons or the Jihadists?



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 06:32 by EddieByword.

Hey shadooby, with all due respect please try to keep the discussion non offensive to other posters. There is a clear target for our anger here, certainly not at each other. I am truly grateful Bjornulf has allowed us to vent our anger and frustrations here, voice our diverse opinions, it is an important and useful outlet but if you insist of taking it where you have I think you will spoil that opportunity for us all. Thanks.

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Naturalust
Hey shadooby, with all due respect please try to keep the discussion non offensive to other posters. There is a clear target for our anger here, certainly not at each other. I am truly grateful Bjornulf has allowed us to vent our anger and frustrations here, voice our diverse opinions, it is an important and useful outlet but if you insist of taking it where you have I think you will spoil that opportunity for us all. Thanks.

Good point Naturalust, I've amended my term of abuse too.............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 02:39 by EddieByword.

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desertblues68
Pianist plays Imagine near the Bataclan


Imagine

Write a lasting song, Mick and Keith, based on the event.

Keep blaming Bush but what are we suppose to do about these savages that want to wipe us Off the face of the earth?Look at the the Boston bombers gave them welfare and education didn't matter they still wanted to kill us.

In a way, with our limited knowledge of events, we are all representatives of the world here. We may not be politicians, but we our all engaging in debate and discussion. This is a true world wide forum. Our opinions count. Everyone is trying their best to keep it civil but hey emotions get the best of us all, and anger is a valid emotion.

At least BV has let us hash it out for while, because in all the years I've been here he usually shuts it down pretty quick. I think it is too important an issue to pretend that it is not relevant. At this point it is a little late to lay blame for how we arrived at this point, but we should focus on the present and how to proceed in the future.

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ohmercy61
Keep blaming Bush but what are we suppose to do about these savages that want to wipe us Off the face of the earth? Look at the the Boston bombers gave them welfare and education didn't matter they still wanted to kill us.

Personally I think you'll always get loners with some gripe or another - according to wikipedia "During an initial interrogation in the hospital, Dzhokhar alleged that Tamerlan was the mastermind. He said they were motivated by extremist Islamist beliefs and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that they were self-radicalized and unconnected to any outside terrorist groups".
The police say these are the most difficult to anticipate and deal with.....

Regarding Isis in Syria/Iraq, I wonder how come the governments & banks etc haven't worked out where their money, arms, food etc are coming from and cut those supply chains............especially arms and money. It's one thing to roll up to some town in Northern Iraq and be able to get food but where's the rest comimg from?.....find out, cut the supply and implement basic seige tactics on the whole area, massive as it is......that's a first step and honestly I'm amazed it's not already being done.

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

KEITH RICHARDS once commented on TERROR in an interview.
He said something like: Well... I don't like this shite (referring to something to do with something...), but I don't mind until "they" (who?) get in the way of US (THE ROLLING STONES and fans) performing and expressing what WE want.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 03:14 by RipThisBone.

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Stoneage

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

More innocent civilians die every hour of every day of starvation in Africa. Priorities indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 03:14 by Turner68.

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Turner68

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Stoneage

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

More innocent civilians die every hour of every day of starvation in Africa. Priorities indeed.

That has nothing to do with terrorism. There is no causality there whatsoever. A meaningless comparison.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

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Stoneage

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

Pretty sure he was talking about the billion plus Muslims that live in peace. I'd say they represent pretty good proof that Islam is compatible with civilization. Islam in and of itself is not the problem, radical extremist Islamic terrorists are of course the problem. Might as well condemn all Christians for the actions and values of the Westborough Baptist church...maybe not the best analogy but hopefully you get my point. Besides do we truly have the right to force Occident values on the rest of the world? Sounds like just the type of thing many condemn radical Muslims for trying to do. Live and let live I say!

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Naturalust

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Stoneage

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

Pretty sure he was talking about the billion plus Muslims that live in peace. I'd say they represent pretty good proof that Islam is compatible with civilization. Islam in and of itself is not the problem, radical extremist Islamic terrorists are of course the problem. Might as well condemn all Christians for the actions and values of the Westborough Baptist church...maybe not the best analogy but hopefully you get my point. Besides do we truly have the right to force Occident values on the rest of the world? Sounds like just the type of thing many condemn radical Muslims for trying to do. Live and let live I say!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................

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Stoneage

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Turner68

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Stoneage

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The Mez
Islamophobia is on the rise. Stop the hate!

Over 130 innocent civilians killed by islamic terrorists and you're afraid of islamophobia? Get your priorities right. There is every reason in the world to be afraid of islamist murderers!
And there are even just causes to be islamophobic. It's a religion incompatible with Occident values and modern civilisation.

More innocent civilians die every hour of every day of starvation in Africa. Priorities indeed.

That has nothing to do with terrorism. There is no causality there whatsoever. A meaningless comparison.

It's meaningful because if you are someone who wants to stop innocent people from dying, it's much more effective to help fight drunk driving, or heroin addiction, or even starvation in Africa than it is ISIS. That's assuming you actually want to do something to help rather than just talk.

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Stoneage

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Turner68
More innocent civilians die every hour of every day of starvation in Africa. Priorities indeed.

That has nothing to do with terrorism. There is no causality there whatsoever. A meaningless comparison.

Perhaps. Although it may have something to do with global oligarchy.

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shadooby
Ha, the US president said yesterday "IS is contained and on the run"...tell that to the Russian crash victims and Paris...don't count on the USA with this bafoon in charge, friends.

I'm pretty sure I heard him say:

"France is our oldest ally. The French people have stood shoulder to shoulder with the United States time and again. And we want to be very clear that we stand together with them in the fight against terrorism and extremism."

I believe every word of it. So should you.

THANK YOU THE SICILIAN...