Quote
Stoneage

Quote
Witness

Quote
Stoneage
But this thread is about terror attacks, BV. Not about car accidents. The one has nothing to do with the other. It's a logical fallacy to believe so. And I don't believe in lip service like "the terrorists win because we talk about the terror". That's nonsense. Close the thread then if you don't want people to talk about terror. That is your privilege. It's your blogg.

However, if the relatively open and democratic socities of Europe would be made to become radically less open by the measures that some want their states to take, then to some extent the terrorists will win. If such measures are not taken, bv's comparison gives good evidence about how great the cost in human lives is, relatively to others costs of human lives.

Well, there are talks about closing the borders to Europe anyway due to the mass migration taking place right now. Very much caused by the war in Syria and terror sects like ISIS. That is why it's vital to take action against the situation in Syria right now. Before we have the whole Middle East knocking on the door to Europe.

As to what I was trying to express, I ought not to have used the word "open". Writing on my phone,and seeking to avoid a post too overtly political, I was thinking about open in the sense "politically open", strangely enough maybe, not about persons in large numbers crossing the boundaries.

As to the question of refugees, I acknowledge that there obviously is the need to make distinction between migration and the refugee question. But I can't enter into a political discussion, due to the rules for posting.

Quote
Stoneage
Is it illegal in all states? I heard somewhere that in some states it's only illegal if you are involved in an accident. Not otherwise. But surely that can't be a fact anymore?

Yes driving while intoxicated is illegal in all States in the US. I think Mississippi is the only State which still allows the driver to consume alcohol while driving but there are a few which allow an open container in the car as long as the driver isn't imbibing.

Okey, I think I misinterpreted you a bit there, Witness. But I don't think that the best way to safeguard a country against terrorism is to make it more open or do nothing at all. Politicians have been rightfully criticized overhere for making pretentious speaches like that. Full of cliches. I believe it's much more vital to strenghten security and control in face of danger.

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly
As ever, follow the money.

Take the above example of car accidents. The automobile industry is worth billions. This is why negative stories surrounding cars do not receive the same media attention.

The same goes for the alcohol industry, the pharmaceutical industry, etc.

Surely this is widely known.

Follow the money.

A simplistic argument at best... There is no conspiracy within the media to not report these things due to the "big money" involved.

You know not whereof you speak.

.....

Olly.

Our politicians support the killing of people there ("We sell them missiles, we sell them tanks" ). Which causes that some leaders there support the killng of people here. We call killing people there "collateral damage". We call killing people here "terrorism".
Solution? Stop supporting the killing of people there.
For starters: stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel and a long list of other dictators, violence preachers and criminals.
However, what did Hollande do? Bombing Syrie a bit more... You'd think after George Bush people would have learnt the lesson. But no.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 08:55 by matxil.

Quote
Olly

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly
As ever, follow the money.

Take the above example of car accidents. The automobile industry is worth billions. This is why negative stories surrounding cars do not receive the same media attention.

The same goes for the alcohol industry, the pharmaceutical industry, etc.

Surely this is widely known.

Follow the money.

A simplistic argument at best... There is no conspiracy within the media to not report these things due to the "big money" involved.

You know not whereof you speak.

Respectfully, I would counter...You know not whatof you speak. When deaths are involved it is news, no matter who is involved.

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly
As ever, follow the money.

Take the above example of car accidents. The automobile industry is worth billions. This is why negative stories surrounding cars do not receive the same media attention.

The same goes for the alcohol industry, the pharmaceutical industry, etc.

Surely this is widely known.

Follow the money.

A simplistic argument at best... There is no conspiracy within the media to not report these things due to the "big money" involved.

You know not whereof you speak.

Respectfully, I would counter...You know not whatof you speak. When deaths are involved it is news, no matter who is involved.

I'm finally positive someone is right here. In fact, you may both be right!

Quote
Stoneage
Okey, I think I misinterpreted you a bit there, Witness. But I don't think that the best way to safeguard a country against terrorism is to make it more open or do nothing at all. Politicians have been rightfully criticized overhere for making pretentious speaches like that. Full of cliches. I believe it's much more vital to strenghten security and control in face of danger.

Your interpretation of my earlier post, Stoneage, was natural, given the words that I happened to use.

But now then we seem to have arrived at a point of some disagreement. Some other kinds of action may possibly be advantageous. However, to defend what there is of politically open and democratic character of the societies in Europe is vital in my perspective. And on that point, the comparison, presented by bv, applies concerning losses from terrorism and from other regular events.

I am not saying we should forget the victims of the tragic Paris terror. What I am saying is that we can not solve world problems here on IORR. That is why I will close this thread soon, very soon. Even how much is hurts to see Paris is suffering from terror, likewise Brussels now this week-end, and so on, we simply can not let the terrorists control our lives.

They say that the "west" did not care about Ebola until it landed on our doorsteps. Malaria is no worry to me unless I go to Africa, but half a million people will die from Malaria this year. A fraction of the cost of the bombs dropped could saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Like they say when I visit Africa: It is our young girls who die. If it happens it happens. It is a tragedy in the family. In every family. I just take my daily dosis of Malarone and I am safe. Life is unfair.

I did never see any posts about traffic accidents or ebola or malaria or blind violence here on IORR, and I don't think it belongs here. We live in Stonesland, and we do care of each others. The Stones rarely visit Africa, and car accidents may happen, sadly.

Don't make me wrong, I am deeply concerned about the violence on this planet, but also, I am a matematician. I do know the numbers. I do know that the global total conflict level on this planet is decreasing year by year. It is a fact. The world is a safer place to live in year by year. Globally. May be there is violence on our doorstep. Then it is getting close. But it has been part of the day in Eritrea and many other places. Somaila. Afghanistan. Many other places. The world is getting open, people have smartphones, Internet, they see where and how freedom is working, we will see more of the global problems closer to our relatively safe life. I don't think we will be able to solve those problems here. I wish I could discuss these matters here of course. But there will be hate and fights and biazed campaign like "I know the whole truth and nothing but the truth" kind of wars here, so that is why I am 100% sure that this thread needs to be closed within few hours. And remember, everything I say here is facts, numbers from WHO, UN and so on. Undisputable. But people have biases. They tend to know a solution. A subjective one. Kill this. Kill that. Blame it on them. There are no easy solutions. Sorry.

But, look at it from the bright side. Mick says "We play to people not pilicies". So we will get another tour, more great Stones performances, more chances to discuss who is the best guitar player and what songs should they play and what about the warhorses and why don't they come more often to California and they must come to London of course and why is Arsenal better or worse than Tottenham, or was it the other way around?

Well I don't know. What can a poor boy do, except sing in a rock'n'roll band?

Bjornulf

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly

Quote
Naturalust

Quote
Olly
As ever, follow the money.

Take the above example of car accidents. The automobile industry is worth billions. This is why negative stories surrounding cars do not receive the same media attention.

The same goes for the alcohol industry, the pharmaceutical industry, etc.

Surely this is widely known.

Follow the money.

A simplistic argument at best... There is no conspiracy within the media to not report these things due to the "big money" involved.

You know not whereof you speak.

Respectfully, I would counter...You know not whatof you speak. When deaths are involved it is news, no matter who is involved.

Naturalist, this is clearly not true. There are 20,000 deaths due to suicide by guns in the USA every year. [www.cdc.gov]

How often do you hear about this as a problem in the news relative to the Paris attacks?

There are nearly 60,000 deaths due to influenza and pneumonia in the USA per year.

[www.cdc.gov]

The media is in the business of selling ads. The Paris attacks are all over the media even today because it people are hungry to hear about it and so the media can sell lots of ads at high prices. No one wants to see the 100th story of the day about someone committing suicide, or a story about how 1000 people died from flu in the past week, so it's not reported, and our society doesn't see it as big a problem as it really is.

Most of the time it's depressing to hear about people dying so it's not reported. But it's terrifying to hear about people dying from terrorist attacks. People like to watch things that scare them. No one likes to watch things about suicide or flu or drunk drivers.

Our media believes that terrorist attacks make for good television.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-23 23:22 by Turner68.

The en-mass outpouring of ‘grief’ surrounding these Parisian attacks is beginning to bore me somewhat. Yes, it is tragic and saddening, but so are the kidnapping of children in northern Nigeria by Boko Haram and the attacks in Kenya, Eastern Africa. France may be close to home for many on this forum, but this nations’ suffering, is no greater than elsewhere’s .

Quote
Big Al
....Yes, it is tragic and saddening, but so are the kidnapping of children in northern Nigeria by Boko Haram and the attacks in Kenya, Eastern Africa. France may be close to home for many on this forum, but this nations’ suffering, is no greater than elsewhere’s .

Agreed.

Unfortunately our society places different value on lives depending on where people are from. For example, Paris is no closer to the USA than parts of Africa, and yet more African children die of starvation in a couple hours than died in the Paris attacks. Imagine all the media attention around the Paris attacks happening every few hours for Africa! That hunger problem would get solved really quickly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-23 23:13 by Turner68.

Quote
Stoneage
Is it illegal in all states? I heard somewhere that in some states it's only illegal if you are involved in an accident. Not otherwise. But surely that can't be a fact anymore?

It's illegal everywhere in the US but since you made your post I did some research and I see that the laws in Sweden are much stricter (ie the legal maximum blood alcohol content is much lower in Sweden.) Thanks for the pointer.

That's great news about the traffic fatalities going down so much in Sweden. In the USA, over 7,000 people are killed by drunk drivers every year.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-23 23:22 by Turner68.

Quote
bv
I am not saying we should forget the victims of the tragic Paris terror. What I am saying is that we can not solve world problems here on IORR. That is why I will close this thread soon, very soon. Even how much is hurts to see Paris is suffering from terror, likewise Brussels now this week-end, and so on, we simply can not let the terrorists control our lives.

They say that the "west" did not care about Ebola until it landed on our doorsteps. Malaria is no worry to me unless I go to Africa, but half a million people will die from Malaria this year. A fraction of the cost of the bombs dropped could saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Like they say when I visit Africa: It is our young girls who die. If it happens it happens. It is a tragedy in the family. In every family. I just take my daily dosis of Malarone and I am safe. Life is unfair.

I did never see any posts about traffic accidents or ebola or malaria or blind violence here on IORR, and I don't think it belongs here. We live in Stonesland, and we do care of each others. The Stones rarely visit Africa, and car accidents may happen, sadly.

Don't make me wrong, I am deeply concerned about the violence on this planet, but also, I am a matematician. I do know the numbers. I do know that the global total conflict level on this planet is decreasing year by year. It is a fact. The world is a safer place to live in year by year. Globally. May be there is violence on our doorstep. Then it is getting close. But it has been part of the day in Eritrea and many other places. Somaila. Afghanistan. Many other places. The world is getting open, people have smartphones, Internet, they see where and how freedom is working, we will see more of the global problems closer to our relatively safe life. I don't think we will be able to solve those problems here. I wish I could discuss these matters here of course. But there will be hate and fights and biazed campaign like "I know the whole truth and nothing but the truth" kind of wars here, so that is why I am 100% sure that this thread needs to be closed within few hours. And remember, everything I say here is facts, numbers from WHO, UN and so on. Undisputable. But people have biases. They tend to know a solution. A subjective one. Kill this. Kill that. Blame it on them. There are no easy solutions. Sorry.

But, look at it from the bright side. Mick says "We play to people not pilicies". So we will get another tour, more great Stones performances, more chances to discuss who is the best guitar player and what songs should they play and what about the warhorses and why don't they come more often to California and they must come to London of course and why is Arsenal better or worse than Tottenham, or was it the other way around?

Well I don't know. What can a poor boy do, except sing in a rock'n'roll band?

"What can a poor boy do, except sing in a rock 'n' roll band"?

Maybe play Petrol Blues (complete take) and Highwire as a surprise next year in South America...

I agree bv. Close this thread a.s.a.p.
IT'S ONLY ROCK 'N' ROLL AND I LIKE IT.

Quote
Turner68

Quote
Stoneage
Is it illegal in all states? I heard somewhere that in some states it's only illegal if you are involved in an accident. Not otherwise. But surely that can't be a fact anymore?

It's illegal everywhere in the US but since you made your post I did some research and I see that the laws in Sweden are much stricter (ie the legal maximum blood alcohol content is much lower in Sweden.) Thanks for the pointer.

That's great news about the traffic fatalities going down so much in Sweden. In the USA, over 7,000 people are killed by drunk drivers every year.

Some of that is inflated; it's my understanding if either person involved in an accident, be it the one who caused it or not, had any alcohol in their system, be it above the limit or far below, it gets counted as an alcohol related incident.

Quote
kovach

Quote
Turner68

Quote
Stoneage
Is it illegal in all states? I heard somewhere that in some states it's only illegal if you are involved in an accident. Not otherwise. But surely that can't be a fact anymore?

It's illegal everywhere in the US but since you made your post I did some research and I see that the laws in Sweden are much stricter (ie the legal maximum blood alcohol content is much lower in Sweden.) Thanks for the pointer.

That's great news about the traffic fatalities going down so much in Sweden. In the USA, over 7,000 people are killed by drunk drivers every year.

Some of that is inflated; it's my understanding if either person involved in an accident, be it the one who caused it or not, had any alcohol in their system, be it above the limit or far below, it gets counted as an alcohol related incident.

Nope, it's only counted if one of the drivers has an *illegal* level of alcohol.
[www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov]

on average, every 50 minutes someone in the states is killed in an accident in which one of the drivers had an illegal level of alcohol in their blood.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 00:19 by Turner68.

If people don't think that the number of auto accidents caused by drivers on phones, on the internet, truck drivers looking at porn on their tablets, etc., is not all covered up because the telecoms make too much money off of it, then I think you are terminally naive.

Same as with alcohol driving. It is against the law in every state, but it is not taken seriously. You need to have multiple convictions before facing any kind of harsh penalty like incarceration.

Neither of these things has to be this way. It is because of the money, the influence of the alcohol and telecom companies, and the fact that government in the land of the free is run by paid lobbyists who shower corporate money on legislators.

You would have to show this skeptical and naive guy some evidence of a cover up before I would believe the telecom or alcohol companies are involved in such a conspiracy. Like I said there are many reasons these things aren't (often) on National news. One of many reasons is because everybody drinks and uses telecom products.

I'm trying to imagine some telecom lobbyist or representative meeting with media programming execs saying OK , we are only going to advertise on your network if you don't publicize accidents involved with cell phone and tablet technology. It's not like telecom companies have anything to gain by promoting the use of their products while driving, or that people are going to drink less or use media devices less because the media is reporting accidents cause by teir use. BTW, I may agree with you about special interest groups and their influence but lobbying is generally referred to the group influencing legislators not telecom programming directors...and there are laws about not texting or drinking while driving last time I checked.

Sorry to get off topic here....Viva La France!

there is no "cover up" the way you describe it of course.

the media reports stories and makes shows about things that lots of people want to watch and that advertisers want to associate their products with.

it's very out in the open. it's just useful to understand the implications that has for what we see in the news and how that compares to what is happening in real life and what is important in real life.

Yep, what could be more applicable in this thread. I actually dig this tune!

[www.youtube.com]

I agree 100% with "Follow the money." It usually unclouds many mysteries.

In this case, as Bob Dylan indicated, look to the Masters of War, and anyone benefiting financially from terrorism, warring, Security, surveillance, fear, hatred, and distraction.

- swiss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 04:12 by swiss.

Quote
swiss
I agree 100% with "Follow the money." It usually unclouds many mysteries.

In this case, as Bob Dylan indicated, look to the Masters of War, and anyone benefiting financially from terrorism, warring, Security, surveillance, fear, hatred, and distraction.

- swiss

Sure but don't believe every conspiracy someone throws you way just because there may a clear financial motive or benefit from it either. Suspicion, caution and skepticism are one thing but blaming everything on the profiteers and power brokers is a bit radical too....not that there aren't real conspiracies out there or that the profiteers and power brokers don't have a lot to answer for.

In the world of Islamic terrorism, there are motivations, cause and effect relationships and many factors at play here, some of which date back to time of Muhammad and his violent ways, it's often more complex that just follow the money, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 09:17 by Naturalust.

Quote
matxil
Our politicians support the killing of people there ("We sell them missiles, we sell them tanks"). Which causes that some leaders there support the killng of people here. We call killing people there "collateral damage". We call killing people here "terrorism".
Solution? Stop supporting the killing of people there.
For starters: stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel and a long list of other dictators, violence preachers and criminals.
However, what did Hollande do? Bombing Syrie a bit more... You'd think after George Bush people would have learnt the lesson. But no.

Hollande and Obama and Putin don't want to bomb Syria but daech there and in Iraq too, it's not the same. The goal is clear to all of us, there is no ambiguity and it's absolutely necessary.

Quote
jpasc95

Quote
matxil
Our politicians support the killing of people there ("We sell them missiles, we sell them tanks" ). Which causes that some leaders there support the killng of people here. We call killing people there "collateral damage". We call killing people here "terrorism".
Solution? Stop supporting the killing of people there.
For starters: stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel and a long list of other dictators, violence preachers and criminals.
However, what did Hollande do? Bombing Syrie a bit more... You'd think after George Bush people would have learnt the lesson. But no.

Hollande and Obama and Putin don't want to bomb Syria but daech there and in Iraq too, it's not the same. The goal is clear to all of us, there is no ambiguity and it's absolutely necessary.

Then explain why the middle-east has only become less safe since the war in Iraq.
And also explain why Saudi Arabia is our big ally even though it's also the big supporter of Daesh (and actually does the same thing).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-24 08:55 by matxil.

To be clear, I didn't say 100% of terrorism can be answered with "Follow the money."

I said "I agree 100% with [ the validity of the statement, generally, to ] 'Follow the money'."

Maybe because the phrase "Follow the money" appeared for the first time in the movie All the President's Men) about Watergate conspiracy theories entered this discussion.

What I said was--and agree with myself--"It usually unclouds many mysteries." I wasn't talking about conspiracies.

It is instructive if not imperative to, as Bob Dylan indicated, look to the Masters of War, and anyone benefiting financially from terrorism, warring, Security, surveillance, fear, hatred, and distraction.

I didn't imply all answers lie within.

And there is a lot of money flying around.

That's all,
swiss

Quote
matxil

Quote
jpasc95

Quote
matxil
Our politicians support the killing of people there ("We sell them missiles, we sell them tanks" ). Which causes that some leaders there support the killng of people here. We call killing people there "collateral damage". We call killing people here "terrorism".
Solution? Stop supporting the killing of people there.
For starters: stop supporting Saudi Arabia and Israel and a long list of other dictators, violence preachers and criminals.
However, what did Hollande do? Bombing Syrie a bit more... You'd think after George Bush people would have learnt the lesson. But no.

Hollande and Obama and Putin don't want to bomb Syria but daech there and in Iraq too, it's not the same. The goal is clear to all of us, there is no ambiguity and it's absolutely necessary.

Then explain why the middle-east has only become less safe since the war in Iraq.
And also explain why Saudi Arabia is our big ally even though it's also the big supporter of Daesh (and actually does the same thing).

I don't have to explain what you probably know and this has already been discussed in that thread.
We have to change our dirty habits with some Gulf monarchies and destroy daech.

Quote
swiss
To be clear, I didn't say 100% of terrorism can be answered with "Follow the money."

I said "I agree 100% with [ the validity of the statement, generally, to ] 'Follow the money'."

Maybe because the phrase "Follow the money" appeared for the first time in the movie All the President's Men) about Watergate conspiracy theories entered this discussion.

What I said was--and agree with myself--"It usually unclouds many mysteries." I wasn't talking about conspiracies.

It is instructive if not imperative to, as Bob Dylan indicated, look to the Masters of War, and anyone benefiting financially from terrorism, warring, Security, surveillance, fear, hatred, and distraction.

I didn't imply all answers lie within.

And there is a lot of money flying around.

That's all,
swiss

I understood what you meant Swiss. I don't know anyone in a position of power or knowledge would argue with it either.

I am going to Paris in a couple of weeks and I will go to visit the outside of the bataclan theatre,I thought maybe I will leave my Rolling Stones tshirt from the concert at the stade de France last year outside the bataclan where people have been laying flowers and cards.

Nate

This thread has left the original subject and turned into a political discussion. That is why it is now closed.

Bjornulf