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Naturalust

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HighwireC
Do you believe, some "couple of good guys with concealed carry permits" would have had a real chance to stopp these terrorists using machine guns, really?

Show me one example, please ...

Peace.
HigfhwireC

Yes I obviously do or I wouldn't have said so.. I assure you if I was there, I would have tried to stop them. And if you were there and armed you probably would have too. I implore you not to continue the debate for obvious reasons..

But since you asked for examples:

[crimeresearch.org]

is it really the best solution ?
I don't think so
for example, in USA, between 2001 and 2013, 3 030 people died in terrorist attacks (2 990 in sept 2001)
It's far less than the 406 496 people who died because of fire weapons used by the American citizens..
the difference is enormous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 22:46 by jpasc95.

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The Joker
Let's cool it.

No need for dispute.

This link is so moving

The faces and lives of the victims.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Thanks.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

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Redhotcarpet
Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

Yes, ISIS started in 1999 [en.wikipedia.org]

But that's not the beginning of this story.

Don't Forget the Gulf War (Iraq War I) [en.wikipedia.org]

and al-Qaeda: [en.wikipedia.org]
and last, but not least:

Soviet–Afghan War [en.wikipedia.org]
Taliban [en.wikipedia.org]
and Mujahideen [en.wikipedia.org]
and much more ...


Have a look at their respective relationships to the USA, too ...



History didn't start in 1999 or in 2001 at 9/11 ...



Peace.
HighwireC

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Redhotcarpet
Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

The Islamic State of Iraq & Syria (ISIS) was formed in 2004 when "the Jordanian Salafi jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his militant group Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, founded in 1999", pledged alliegence to Al Qaeda with the expressed intent of pushing the US troops out of Iraq and formimg a caliphate across Iraq/Syria......So, not very cute and not at all inaccurate to say the US/UK provoked it's formation.

[en.wikipedia.org]

It's true though that this has been going on for centuries............Christian crusades v Islamic Jihad ........goes back hundreds of years.....King Richard of England "the Lion heart" was England's most famous crusader in the 12th century. [en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-15 23:24 by EddieByword.

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Naturalust

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HighwireC
Do you believe, some "couple of good guys with concealed carry permits" would have had a real chance to stopp these terrorists using machine guns, really?

Show me one example, please ...

Peace.
HigfhwireC

Yes I obviously do or I wouldn't have said so.. I assure you if I was there, I would have tried to stop them. And if you were there and armed you probably would have too. I implore you not to continue the debate for obvious reasons..

But since you asked for examples:

[crimeresearch.org]

Right... it's midnight in a rock club. Music is over 100 decibels and it's wall to wall people, most people are wasted. What could go wrong when a handful of people in the crowd start pulling out guns and firing back? LOL.

Much simpler to simply pat people down or have them go through a metal detector to get into a show with more than a certain number of people.

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Redhotcarpet
Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

Not only accurate but perhaps a bit naive to suggest that the US didn't provoke them, imo. Not to blame the US for this terrible event, that is ludicrous, but to deny that our intervention in the Middle East doesn't have a provoking effect on Islamic terrorists is like saying water isn't wet. Have you heard the Al Qaeda kids shouting slogans about the USA? Our western ideologies and actions do provoke them, whether intentional or not, it's just the way it is. Sure Jihad and Islam existed before the USA but in 2015 America obviously has come to represent the ultimate evil enemy to them, that's just a fact you can't make go away.

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Turner68

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Naturalust

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HighwireC
Do you believe, some "couple of good guys with concealed carry permits" would have had a real chance to stopp these terrorists using machine guns, really?

Show me one example, please ...

Peace.
HigfhwireC

Yes I obviously do or I wouldn't have said so.. I assure you if I was there, I would have tried to stop them. And if you were there and armed you probably would have too. I implore you not to continue the debate for obvious reasons..

But since you asked for examples:

[crimeresearch.org]

Right... it's midnight in a rock club. Music is over 100 decibels and it's wall to wall people, most people are wasted. What could go wrong when a handful of people in the crowd start pulling out guns and firing back? LOL.

Much simpler to simply pat people down or have them go through a metal detector to get into a show with more than a certain number of people.

The question is what could go right. We all know what went wrong. My aim is true and I can certainly imagine that I could have stopped at least one of these nuts from killing the huge number of people they were able to without any initial armed resistance. Don't forget it was armed policemen who ended up doing just that to put an end to the madness. Perhaps you just don't trust the ability of a few good intentioned armed people to stop the crazy violence of terrorists like these. No worries Turner, I respect your opinion, even if I don't share it.

But do you honestly think a metal detector would have stopped these terrorists from entering the show? Or that even a single armed guard at every entrance would have stopped them? One of the things about terror is that it appears so random and generally happens at unexpected times and places. That's why it is almost impossible to guard against and I just thought some random and unexpected armed resistance might help a bit. The last thing I'd want to feel is helplessness in a situation like this and the only thing that stopped those nuts was bullets, unfortunately.

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Naturalust

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Redhotcarpet
Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

Not only accurate but perhaps a bit naive to suggest that the US didn't provoke them, imo. Not to blame the US for this terrible event, that is ludicrous, but to deny that our intervention in the Middle East doesn't have a provoking effect on Islamic terrorists is like saying water isn't wet. Have you heard the Al Qaeda kids shouting slogans about the USA? Our western ideologies and actions do provoke them, whether intentional or not, it's just the way it is. Sure Jihad and Islam existed before the USA but in 2015 America obviously has come to represent the ultimate evil enemy to them, that's just a fact you can't make go away.

Kids are taught Anti-semitism as well. The US and Israel represents the evil as well as all western Society with our gay rights etc. That provokes them.

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Naturalust

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Turner68

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Naturalust

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HighwireC
Do you believe, some "couple of good guys with concealed carry permits" would have had a real chance to stopp these terrorists using machine guns, really?

Show me one example, please ...

Peace.
HigfhwireC

Yes I obviously do or I wouldn't have said so.. I assure you if I was there, I would have tried to stop them. And if you were there and armed you probably would have too. I implore you not to continue the debate for obvious reasons..

But since you asked for examples:

[crimeresearch.org]

Right... it's midnight in a rock club. Music is over 100 decibels and it's wall to wall people, most people are wasted. What could go wrong when a handful of people in the crowd start pulling out guns and firing back? LOL.

Much simpler to simply pat people down or have them go through a metal detector to get into a show with more than a certain number of people.

The question is what could go right. We all know what went wrong. My aim is true and I can certainly imagine that I could have stopped at least one of these nuts from killing the huge number of people they were able to without any initial armed resistance. Don't forget it was armed policemen who ended up doing just that to put an end to the madness. Perhaps you just don't trust the ability of a few good intentioned armed people to stop the crazy violence of terrorists like these. No worries Turner, I respect your opinion, even if I don't share it.

But do you honestly think a metal detector would have stopped these terrorists from entering the show? Or that even a single armed guard at every entrance would have stopped them? One of the things about terror is that it appears so random and generally happens at unexpected times and places. That's why it is almost impossible to guard against and I just thought some random and unexpected armed resistance might help a bit. The last thing I'd want to feel is helplessness in a situation like this and the only thing that stopped those nuts was bullets, unfortunately.

policemen are highly trained, have protocols for working with one another, and have experience working as a team. a handful of stoned dudes carrying weapons who don't know one another firing shots into a crowd is a recipe for disaster.

no matter how skilled you may be, you can't assume everyone else in there would be.

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Redhotcarpet

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Naturalust

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Redhotcarpet
Just a couple reminders: Islamic terror is a lot older than Israel and Jihad originates from the Quran and Muhammed and thus older than the USA. And needless to say that doesnt make all muslims terrorists and everybody who calls him or herself muslim is not religious. I know everybody knows this but then also remind yourself that ISIS has existed from at least 1999 so let's all stop pretending the US somehow provoked these criminals. Cute perhaps but totally inaccurate.

Not only accurate but perhaps a bit naive to suggest that the US didn't provoke them, imo. Not to blame the US for this terrible event, that is ludicrous, but to deny that our intervention in the Middle East doesn't have a provoking effect on Islamic terrorists is like saying water isn't wet. Have you heard the Al Qaeda kids shouting slogans about the USA? Our western ideologies and actions do provoke them, whether intentional or not, it's just the way it is. Sure Jihad and Islam existed before the USA but in 2015 America obviously has come to represent the ultimate evil enemy to them, that's just a fact you can't make go away.

Kids are taught Anti-semitism as well. The US and Israel represents the evil as well as all western Society with our gay rights etc. That provokes them.

Hmmmmmm,

it's not geostrategie and gasoline: Gay People are the real reason for those terroristic attacs ...?


So we can stopp them with the inauguration of death penalty for gay people in the US?

wow .....



Peace.
HighwireC

My understanding is Sadam Hussain, although a very bad guy, for his own reasons kept many of these Radical groups in check within his region. Once Sadam was removed these radicals were able To grow in power. I don't belive this situation, and certainly not to this magnitude, was foreseen when Sadam was removed. Any effort to bring stability back to this Region would be well spent but one nation can not accomplish this difficult task on their own. In addition the effort must remain in place for several years otherwise it will crumble and return to what we have today or worse.

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Turner68
policemen are highly trained, have protocols for working with one another, and have experience working as a team. a handful of stoned dudes carrying weapons who don't know one another firing shots into a crowd is a recipe for disaster.

no matter how skilled you may be, you can't assume everyone else in there would be.

Yeah but unfortunately it took the police quite a long while to make their presence known. I'm not saying there might not have been some collateral damage, I guess that's possible, but I would have been willing to take that chance in that theater to have some sort of defensive mechanism in place when the shit hit the fan. And I imagine it would have been easy to determine who the bad guys were pretty quickly so I doubt people would have been "firing into the crowd" as much as they would have been aiming at the bad guys. My guess is it still would have been horrendous but at least a few lives might have been saved. As it was it was just a slaughter and that just pisses me off.

But no worries, just stick close to me Turner, I'll do my best to keep you safe in the event something like this happens on my watch. LOL

This thread has been mostly peaceful and respectful. I hope it stays this way, and I also thank Bjornulf for keeping it open, and allowing discourse among people from all over the world, with wide diversity of reactions, points of view, and politics--really one of the best things about the internet (not ads, not data harvesting, but connection and dialogue).

I don't want the discussion to devolve into debate about guns, but I have been hearing and seeing more stories this past year of people who have armed themselves, legally, and who have done more harm than good. The thought of being in one of the thousands of crowded shows I've been to since my early teen years and multiple people having guns literally gives me nightmares.

Carjacking victim shot in the head by helpful witness.

I won't say more on this. It's too tactical. To me, the better conversation is what you were saying 7 or so pages ago, Naturalust, but stepping back and looking at what is creating the set of conditions that leads people to slaughter innocent people?

Some here are dogmatically and virulently anti-religion, and say if people didn't believe in an afterlife none of this would happen. However, that doesn't come into play with the enraged young men in America who are shooting up people in theatres, churches, and schools. Sure, what happened in Paris is overtly politically motivated, but what else is going on that makes people dehumanize others and be filled so completely with rage and hate that they can take the lives of innocents?

Clearly, there are many answers. But it seems obvious that an overarching theme around these acts of violence and terrorism is people feeling otherwise radically powerless, invisible, marginalized, ignored, and dehumanized themselves. When people feel that way--individuals or whole swaths of people from the same demographic--they literally either go crazy, push back violently, or both. They do not go quietly into that good night. They fight.

Who's fighting and what for? That's what we have to investigate, in a very serious and real way.

- swiss

Meanwhile...

French Jets Bomb ISIS Targets in Syria After Police Launch Manhunt for 'Dangerous' Suspect

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

I want to express my sad feelings for all innocent victims of cowardly attacks, whether it´s in Paris, Lebanon, Syria, Burundi or elsewhere - but I´m lost for words. It´s too much going on right now. I just want ISIS gone, and hope the war in Syria will end not too long from now and that the growing hatred towards refugees and immigrants in Europe don´t accelerate. Give peace a chance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 23:03 by The Worst..

Man I really feel sorry for the people of Paris.. I was with my sister and her fiancé when I heard about it that night. It was one of those "Oh my gosh..." moments for sure

Obama administration to release 5 Gitmo detainees to UAE. Tonight? bad timing....ugh

All religions are wrong in the same way in that they privilege faith over reason,but they are not all equally bad in the same way all of the time.In the 1930s then the Roman Catholic religion would of been considered to be the most dangerous at the time because of its alliance with fascism and antisemitism and the damage from that our culture has never recovered from and never will.In these times we live in now it is very clear that the most toxic form that religion takes is the Islamic form,the horrible idea of wanting to end up with sharia law with a state governed by religious law and the way to achieve that is jihad and that Muslims have a special right to demand this is absolute obscene wickedness,this proves one thing that their religion is complete nonsense in its entirety,the idea that God speaks to some illiterate warlord in Arabia and he's able to write this down perfectly and contains the answers to all human life is bullshit.All religions claim to reveal the truth but Islam makes one very dangerous claim for itself in saying that ours is the last and final truth there can't be anymore after this as this is gods last word,that is straight away a temptation to violence and intolerance.

The world is in a very serious struggle with an extremely depraved religion.

Don't waste my time with Islam it's bullshit.

Nate

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The Mez
Obama administration to release 5 Gitmo detainees to UAE. Tonight? bad timing....ugh

Just like he's done (and doing) with thousands of prisoners in the US...he's already said if it was up to him, he'd release them all.

And in the democrat debate last night, nobody would refer to "radical islam" and Sanders blamed terrorism on global warming...you simply can't make this stuff up!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 03:12 by shadooby.

these stupid kids with machine guns need a god dam job or a smack down. and how are they getting ak-47. there was a time when these were rare. Remember when glocks came onto the streets say was it 1981? at a time when only policeman had access to them. Then the god dam crack addicts started to get them. THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW> where are the guns coming from. idiots and @#$%& up people get a hold of them and destroy our peace. I AM SICK OF IT. The price we pay is a world that no one wants to bring a child into. on the other hand, it seems human race is bent on destroying itself and its habitat so maybe its better if it just happens. These attacks were on people ENJOYING life, recreation (dinner, theatre, sport). they want to take away our culture and happiness. That ain't gonna happen.

I remember several months ago going to a pawn shop to look at a saxophone and some dude was actually trying to pawn a semi-automatic machine gun. to my horror. this is in Virginia.

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potus43
I pray to my Lord Jesus for all of you.

While you have him on the line, ask him for a clue.

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Naturalust

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Turner68
policemen are highly trained, have protocols for working with one another, and have experience working as a team. a handful of stoned dudes carrying weapons who don't know one another firing shots into a crowd is a recipe for disaster.

no matter how skilled you may be, you can't assume everyone else in there would be.

Yeah but unfortunately it took the police quite a long while to make their presence known. I'm not saying there might not have been some collateral damage, I guess that's possible, but I would have been willing to take that chance in that theater to have some sort of defensive mechanism in place when the shit hit the fan. And I imagine it would have been easy to determine who the bad guys were pretty quickly so I doubt people would have been "firing into the crowd" as much as they would have been aiming at the bad guys. My guess is it still would have been horrendous but at least a few lives might have been saved. As it was it was just a slaughter and that just pisses me off.

But no worries, just stick close to me Turner, I'll do my best to keep you safe in the event something like this happens on my watch. LOL

Where I live they pat people down or put them through metal detectors before a large show.

This is all just talk though. The chance that you or I will be killed by a drunk driver is over 100 times more likely than us being killed by a terrorist attack.
Now don't tell me that concealed weapons can combat drunk drivers too...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 03:57 by Turner68.

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dcba

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Rokyfan
George Bush created Isis, that is an indisputable fact. He gave them their land, he trained their fighters in Guantanamo and he gave them their weapons (the puppet Iraq gov't we armed and which fled, leaving all the arms to Isis).

And ask yourself why the Western coallition bombed Isis for 18 months to no avail while Putin's army is defeating this scum in just a few weeks. Allepo (one of Syria's main cities) is about to be freed from Isis and you can thank Putin for that not the Western coallition.

Well he doesn't consult lawyers before making a move and taking journalists in for photo ops and to broadcasts his moves.

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dcba

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Rokyfan
George Bush created Isis, that is an indisputable fact. He gave them their land, he trained their fighters in Guantanamo and he gave them their weapons (the puppet Iraq gov't we armed and which fled, leaving all the arms to Isis).

And ask yourself why the Western coallition bombed Isis for 18 months to no avail while Putin's army is defeating this scum in just a few weeks. Allepo (one of Syria's main cities) is about to be freed from Isis and you can thank Putin for that not the Western coallition.

I don't get why people assume that if you criticize Bush, you support Obama.

I agree with you 100% about how ineffectual Obama's foreign policy has been. He called Isis the JV, no?

That has nothing to do with the fact that Bush/Cheney created the situation by lying us into a war we never should have fought, with predictable results.

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Rokyfan

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dcba

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Rokyfan
George Bush created Isis, that is an indisputable fact. He gave them their land, he trained their fighters in Guantanamo and he gave them their weapons (the puppet Iraq gov't we armed and which fled, leaving all the arms to Isis).

And ask yourself why the Western coallition bombed Isis for 18 months to no avail while Putin's army is defeating this scum in just a few weeks. Allepo (one of Syria's main cities) is about to be freed from Isis and you can thank Putin for that not the Western coallition.

I don't get why people assume that if you criticize Bush, you support Obama.

I agree with you 100% about how ineffectual Obama's foreign policy has been. He called Isis the JV, no?

That has nothing to do with the fact that Bush/Cheney created the situation by lying us into a war we never should have fought, with predictable results.

This is a good point, I remember years ago, I was asked who I'd prefer as President, George Bush or Bill Clinton, I said "I don't know, I'm too scared to think".........

Nor does it mean that 'you' are a terrorist sympathiser despite some dimwitted remarks by some on this subject on this board.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 19:17 by EddieByword.

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Turner68
Where I live they pat people down or put them through metal detectors before a large show.

This is all just talk though. The chance that you or I will be killed by a drunk driver is over 100 times more likely than us being killed by a terrorist attack.
Now don't tell me that concealed weapons can combat drunk drivers too...

Yeah I was foolish to bring up the whole gun issue here. They certainly cause more problems in the world than create solutions. My apologies. Besides with all the Euros here they think we're all nuts in America with our guns...what was I thinking. Funny and a bit ironic though that one of the things some of my European friends that visit want to do is go out on the back forty and kill a few bottles and cans. LOL

To answer tumbled's question about the AK47's, they are probably the cheapest and most widely circulated and available assault rifle in the world. They are everywhere, but truly ubiquitous in Europe, Africa and Asia. I think there are like 100 million of them around or some ungodly number like that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 06:18 by Naturalust.

This is more of a rhetorical question seeking an opinion, not making a statement, but were the Middle Eastern and African countries better off with colonial European occupation of the recent past, or were they better off after each achieved its independence? Or should I say was the West or Europe better off?

Can anyone answer this with an intelligent historical perspective and not some diatribe on the evils of European colonialism.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-16 05:23 by The Sicilian.

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Nate
All religions are wrong in the same way in that they privilege faith over reason,but they are not all equally bad in the same way all of the time.In the 1930s then the Roman Catholic religion would of been considered to be the most dangerous at the time because of its alliance with fascism and antisemitism

Nate

Boy do you need to lay off the anti Catholic Propaganda. You are in much need of a history lesson.