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drbryant

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Wroclaw

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big4

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dcba
Compare the very good version of MR from Tokyo III with the tentative ST from March 4th and toy might get an explanation why the setlists are conservative.

Jagger wants to deliver a STRONG and plaudits-worth performance. Going out of the beaten paths with unsual songs (like ST) means a risk of going off the rails onstage. That's sth Mick prefers to avoid, hence the choice to play the tried and tested stuff.

As much I like to hear rarities I must admit ST sounded rough and frail while MR was strong and tight.

If you really wanted to hear the rare stuff with MT (Say Goodbye, Heartbreaker, CYHMK, Sway, M-Mile) you had to attend the Paris rehearsals...

Good points, however, of course ST is going to sound rough and frail first go around but the reward is in seeing (and hearing) the band pounding a song like that into shape on-stage with continual playing. You can't deny the potential ST has live. They could work on it during soundchecks and iron out those rough spots. I think that is something fans miss with the band, seeing them take a song on-stage and during the course of the tour pound it into shape and make it a tour highlight. The evolution of ER is a good example of this. Rather you like or hate it, they tweaked it and showed creativity in changing aspects of its sound from record to stage

It may really not be possible anymore though with shorter tours and setlists to experiment and push the band (Mick J. included) into doing the things needed to tighten up ST. It's all part of the reality that the Glimmer's are now in their 70s and at this stage of the game they've more than earned their right to this "victory lap". As someone posted earlier hearing some of the greatest rock n roll songs ever written being performed live by the band which wrote them is a rare treat that sooner rather than later will never be possible again. Six decades of on-stage rock n roll excellence from Ealing to MSG to Knebworth to Glastonbury the Stones have rolled. An unparalleled achievement.

I guess we can put it even more simple: the Stones are no Beatles - not every B-side of some of their hits from 40 years ago will be recognized and enjoined by the MAJORITY of the people who pay an average of 6-10 Euros PER SONG. Macca can pull out some old Beatles song from "Rubber Soul" - one he never did live - and perform it with 60K people feeling lucky. Most other "dinosaurs" cannot do that. MJ knows this. This tour has a clear "businesses plan" . End of story.

Yes. I saw Paul and he pulled out those old chestnuts - Obladi Oblada, Benefit of Mr. Kite (you know "of course Henry the Horse Dances the Waltz".) and the one that goes "bom bom bom sail the ship, bom bom bom chop the tree, bom bom bom skip the rope" (can't remember the title). And I would trade them all, plus "Lovely Rita, Meter Maid" and 6 to 10 Euro, for last night's Midnight Rambler. How about you?

My point was that for the average ticket buyer "Silver Train" is no "Lovely Rita Meter Maid".

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DandelionPowderman
How did they get 100.000 people in there in 1990??

Pre health and safety I guess.......(as I say though, I did only read that somewhere along the way - (I just looked in my James Karnbach book where I thought it was but it wasn't).
In 1980 they used to get 32,000 in my local football ground but after a few fires and stampedes and crushings at various venues - Bradford, Liverpool etc it got reduced to 16,000......and as I guess you'll know, all top football grounds got changed to all seater....maybe this happpened in Tokyo too



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-06 23:07 by EddieByword.

I think someone needs to stand to to defend "You Got Me Rocking". Yes, it's not much of a song to think what else they have offer, and it does not look 'on paper', that is, reflected outside the first hand concert experience. But it works damn fine in a concert situation. It is an excellent number two song, in building up the atmosphere into right direction, after being thrilled by the striking opening number. That's been my experience and if I can trust BV's judgement, that exactly was what happened in Tokyo as well. Thanks to the warm reception of the second show, it find its place in tonight's set as well.

I think that simple rocker is also a proof that the song doesn't need to be a familiar classic everyone knows beforehand in order to make the crowd go wild. If it just rocks convincingly, has a catchy sing-a-long refrain, and band is smoking, that's all it takes. I just can't accept the idea that the song needs to be well-known and familiar that a casual listener can enjoy. Damn, just sounding good enough, whatever it is, is that matters. It is a concert offering wonderful 'here and now' moments, after all, not a juke box one is ordering only songs one knows.

- Doxa

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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bv

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michaelsavage
Where else would be state our, um, opinion about Japan setlist?

If you are sitting at home and you are dreaming of a specific set list then you may start a new thread about it..............................
The STONES have been performing their greatest hits at 28 - TWENTYEIGHT - Tokyo Dome shows. When they performed SILVER TRAIN at the 2nd Tokyo Dome show, the crowd listened patiently, and they waited for a song they know better. You may judge by the noise level how popular a song is. Start Me Up, You Got Me Rocking, all the so called war horses. That is why they sell out 28 Tokyo Dome. Not because they play Silver Train.

Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

Thing is the Stones have no interest in doing ten nights in every city now - it would take them over a month with the current intervals between gigs just for one thing. I think they've made a very good job since 2012 of giving people all over the world a chance to see them one more time while making a very nice buck for themselves. After Europe this summer they've only got to go to South America and their "world tour" is complete.

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Captainchaos

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drbryant
Midnight Rambler from Tokyo tonight.

ha ha, 10:20 Mick Taylor tares Ronnie a new one here, flippin eck if Ronnie had come in with his monster riff in reply, bang on the pickup it wouldv been amazing dualing!

What a smokin' hot band. An absolutely stellar performance. The years peel away from them all on this track. I'm not sure you can redefine a classic, but they come pretty damn close. Wow, just wow! During one the oh yeah's Mick even broke out the growl. What a force this band still is. Get this group in a studio and see what they can bang out-even if only produces one or two new songs. Add Wyman on bass and would be a near-perfect way to close out the Stones recording career.

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rebelrebel

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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bv

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michaelsavage
Where else would be state our, um, opinion about Japan setlist?

If you are sitting at home and you are dreaming of a specific set list then you may start a new thread about it..............................
The STONES have been performing their greatest hits at 28 - TWENTYEIGHT - Tokyo Dome shows. When they performed SILVER TRAIN at the 2nd Tokyo Dome show, the crowd listened patiently, and they waited for a song they know better. You may judge by the noise level how popular a song is. Start Me Up, You Got Me Rocking, all the so called war horses. That is why they sell out 28 Tokyo Dome. Not because they play Silver Train.

Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

Thing is the Stones have no interest in doing ten nights in every city now - it would take them over a month with the current intervals between gigs just for one thing. I think they've made a very good job since 2012 of giving people all over the world a chance to see them one more time while making a very nice buck for themselves. After Europe this summer they've only got to go to South America and their "world tour" is complete.

This is another factor but I wonder, if the demand was there with the revenue they are pulling now.....maybe they'd stock up on Shepherd's pie, HP sauce and beans?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-06 23:15 by EddieByword.

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EddieByword

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rebelrebel

Thing is the Stones have no interest in doing ten nights in every city now - it would take them over a month with the current intervals between gigs just for one thing. I think they've made a very good job since 2012 of giving people all over the world a chance to see them one more time while making a very nice buck for themselves. After Europe this summer they've only got to go to South America and their "world tour" is complete.

This is another factor but I wonder, if the demand was there with the revenue they are pulling now.....maybe they'd stock up on Shepherd's pie, HP sauce and beans?

I think if the population was large enough in the radius they deemed appropriate to do the shows they would do it. Imagine the transporation costs they would save by not having to move every thing.

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EddieByword

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bv

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michaelsavage
Where else would be state our, um, opinion about Japan setlist?

If you are sitting at home and you are dreaming of a specific set list then you may start a new thread about it..............................
The STONES have been performing their greatest hits at 28 - TWENTYEIGHT - Tokyo Dome shows. When they performed SILVER TRAIN at the 2nd Tokyo Dome show, the crowd listened patiently, and they waited for a song they know better. You may judge by the noise level how popular a song is. Start Me Up, You Got Me Rocking, all the so called war horses. That is why they sell out 28 Tokyo Dome. Not because they play Silver Train.

Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

This misses quite a bit. I actually had some involvement in the arrangements for the 90 shows so I know a little about this. The shows in 1990 were a bit of an exception - it was the first live shows by the Stones in Japan, where they had always been hugely popular, since the 60's because of drug issues. Japan was also in the middle of the biggest economic bubble of the 20th century. This is how they could contract for 10 shows at the Dome. They sold out most of them 50,000 seats (not 100,000) at 10,000 yen (then about $70) for a ticket gross of about $3.5 million per show. I think it would b accurate to say that the popularity of their live shows decreased gradually over the years, partly as a result of the economy, and partly because they were coming here every 3-4 years. The Bigger Bang Tour, with it's dramatically higher prices, actually didn't do very well. The Tokyo Dome shows did not sell out, and Sapporo was a disaster - they were giving tickets to anyone who bought a CD (not a Stones CD, but any CD) at Tower Records in the few days before the show.

The 2014 shows in contrast, sold out immediately (with the aid of a series of presales), helped no doubt by the fact that they haven't been here in 8 years and by the recovering economy. From a financial standpoint, I'm guessing, but I would estimate a 20,000 yen average ticket price ($200 at today's exchange rate), or a cool $10 million ticket gross per show. Demand in the secondary market was significant, especially for the 3rd show. It seems that there was more demand for these shows (at least in Tokyo) than for any tour since Voodoo Lounge, nearly 20 years ago.

It would also seem to be somewhat poor math to calculate a decrease in popularity based on simple attendance figures. Remember that people like me will throw off the calculation - I saw 8 of the 10 Dome shows in 1990.

What does this all mean? I have no idea, but I thought the facts might be interesting.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-06 23:48 by drbryant.

This Midnight Rambler might one of the best from this tour. I think Mick Taylor rhythm parts in the middle work really great, the whole band comes together great in this rendition in fact.





Many thanks to drbryant23 for your video!

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rebelrebel

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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bv

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michaelsavage
Where else would be state our, um, opinion about Japan setlist?

If you are sitting at home and you are dreaming of a specific set list then you may start a new thread about it..............................
The STONES have been performing their greatest hits at 28 - TWENTYEIGHT - Tokyo Dome shows. When they performed SILVER TRAIN at the 2nd Tokyo Dome show, the crowd listened patiently, and they waited for a song they know better. You may judge by the noise level how popular a song is. Start Me Up, You Got Me Rocking, all the so called war horses. That is why they sell out 28 Tokyo Dome. Not because they play Silver Train.

Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

Thing is the Stones have no interest in doing ten nights in every city now - it would take them over a month with the current intervals between gigs just for one thing. I think they've made a very good job since 2012 of giving people all over the world a chance to see them one more time while making a very nice buck for themselves. After Europe this summer they've only got to go to South America and their "world tour" is complete.

In 1990 they played: 14, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 26 and 27 February - and I guess that was the first time in Japan. That is not 100.000 per night, but 50.000 per night and that was when Japanese people had lots of money.

BTW - same trend for
Jacko: 9 in 1988, 8 in 1992, 4 in 1996
Madonna: 6 in 1993, 2 in 2006
Macca: 6 in 1990, 3 in 1993, 3 in 2002 and 3 in 2013



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-06 23:52 by mtaylor.

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword


Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

I wasn't busting your chops man -- there's definitely reasons behind the dropoff both from the Stones' camp and the fans' perspective. Maybe we should draw some supply and demand curves from economics?

No, no, I didn't think you were......

I wouldn't know where to start with the second bit but it looks like Mick (with his education and finance friends (or fiends as Ron Wood puts it) have been on it....

Hmmm 1 million in 1990 ....."I know 150,000 x a f...ucking fortune = the same net as '90...Bingo......... "

In economic terms, it's known as the elasticity of demand. More to be made with fewer people attending, at a certain higher price level.

For instance, let's assume we know for a fact they can either sell exactly 200,000 tickets at average price of $50 or 50,000 tickets at average price of $250, which should they go for?

In the first scenario, they would sell $10,000,000 worth of tickets.
In the second scenario, they would sell $12,500,000 worth of tickets.

They go with scenario two because they make more money (and can do it in one night, instead of 4!).

You can bet that a fair amount of analysis goes into pricing each market they sell to (and even deciding which market they go to).

This is a multimillion dollar concern.

Tokyo 3 was absolutely fantastic show. Mick had so much energy it was like he couldn't get it all out. They didn't want to stop playing!!! My god, the exchange between him and the audience was so strong. I'm the only one who saw that???
What's the point of endless set list talks while they have just performed their last gig in Japan, and did an incredible job.
From Brussels Affair to Tokyo 3 I have seen them so many times but Tokyo 3 was really special.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-07 03:24 by Grichka.

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drbryant

What does this all mean? I have no idea, but I thought the facts might be interesting.

Best line ever...

Good to hear, Grichka!

People!!!

Tokyo 3 was the Stones saying bye bye to Japan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Forever!!!
The audience knew it, the Stones knew it. There was a something special in the air!!! Look at Mick on Brown Sugar!!! He cant get enough of it......



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-07 00:30 by Grichka.

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treaclefingers

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword


Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

I wasn't busting your chops man -- there's definitely reasons behind the dropoff both from the Stones' camp and the fans' perspective. Maybe we should draw some supply and demand curves from economics?

No, no, I didn't think you were......

I wouldn't know where to start with the second bit but it looks like Mick (with his education and finance friends (or fiends as Ron Wood puts it) have been on it....

Hmmm 1 million in 1990 ....."I know 150,000 x a f...ucking fortune = the same net as '90...Bingo......... "

In economic terms, it's known as the elasticity of demand. More to be made with fewer people attending, at a certain higher price level.

For instance, let's assume we know for a fact they can either sell exactly 200,000 tickets at average price of $50 or 50,000 tickets at average price of $250, which should they go for?

In the first scenario, they would sell $10,000,000 worth of tickets.
In the second scenario, they would sell $12,500,000 worth of tickets.

They go with scenario two because they make more money (and can do it in one night, instead of 4!).

You can bet that a fair amount of analysis goes into pricing each market they sell to (and even deciding which market they go to).

This is a multimillion dollar concern.

Of course I understood the "1 show @ $500 per ticket is preferable to them over 10 shows @ $20 per ticket" scenario, that's straight forward basic stuff, what I don't understand is how they can gauge the demand before the shows go on sale?
Do the promoters literally send people out on the streets of these cities with clipboards months in advance asking people "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $X or "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $Y etc etc?........
Is it that basic? ..........I've never been asked - but then I live in a backwater so I wouldn't really expect to be - and I've never seen or heard of any surveys online either....??

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EddieByword

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treaclefingers

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword

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fahthree

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EddieByword


Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

I wasn't busting your chops man -- there's definitely reasons behind the dropoff both from the Stones' camp and the fans' perspective. Maybe we should draw some supply and demand curves from economics?

No, no, I didn't think you were......

I wouldn't know where to start with the second bit but it looks like Mick (with his education and finance friends (or fiends as Ron Wood puts it) have been on it....

Hmmm 1 million in 1990 ....."I know 150,000 x a f...ucking fortune = the same net as '90...Bingo......... "

In economic terms, it's known as the elasticity of demand. More to be made with fewer people attending, at a certain higher price level.

For instance, let's assume we know for a fact they can either sell exactly 200,000 tickets at average price of $50 or 50,000 tickets at average price of $250, which should they go for?

In the first scenario, they would sell $10,000,000 worth of tickets.
In the second scenario, they would sell $12,500,000 worth of tickets.

They go with scenario two because they make more money (and can do it in one night, instead of 4!).

You can bet that a fair amount of analysis goes into pricing each market they sell to (and even deciding which market they go to).

This is a multimillion dollar concern.

Of course I understood the "1 show @ $500 per ticket is preferable to them over 10 shows @ $20 per ticket" scenario, that's straight forward basic stuff, what I don't understand is how they can gauge the demand before the shows go on sale?
Do the promoters literally send people out on the streets of these cities with clipboards months in advance asking people "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $X or "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $Y etc etc?........
Is it that basic? ..........I've never been asked - but then I live in a backwater so I wouldn't really expect to be - and I've never seen or heard of any surveys online either....??

Yes, that's the hard part, what determines the elasticity.

I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine this has been honed into a bit of a science, based on previous concert draws in the area, how long it's been since they were in that centre, record sales, downloads, radio play, internet traffic and a hundred other variables that go into a software program.

Even then they don't get it 100% right, but they probably don't need to either. I haven't heard of surveying but I guess it's possible. I'd imagine that would have made the news by now though.



Seems to work though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-07 00:41 by treaclefingers.

Quote
drbryant

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EddieByword

Quote
bv

Quote
michaelsavage
Where else would be state our, um, opinion about Japan setlist?

If you are sitting at home and you are dreaming of a specific set list then you may start a new thread about it..............................
The STONES have been performing their greatest hits at 28 - TWENTYEIGHT - Tokyo Dome shows. When they performed SILVER TRAIN at the 2nd Tokyo Dome show, the crowd listened patiently, and they waited for a song they know better. You may judge by the noise level how popular a song is. Start Me Up, You Got Me Rocking, all the so called war horses. That is why they sell out 28 Tokyo Dome. Not because they play Silver Train.

Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

This misses quite a bit. I actually had some involvement in the arrangements for the 90 shows so I know a little about this. The shows in 1990 were a bit of an exception - it was the first live shows by the Stones in Japan, where they had always been hugely popular, since the 60's because of drug issues. Japan was also in the middle of the biggest economic bubble of the 20th century. This is how they could contract for 10 shows at the Dome. They sold out most of them 50,000 seats (not 100,000) at 10,000 yen (then about $70) for a ticket gross of about $3.5 million per show. I think it would b accurate to say that the popularity of their live shows decreased gradually over the years, partly as a result of the economy, and partly because they were coming here every 3-4 years. The Bigger Bang Tour, with it's dramatically higher prices, actually didn't do very well. The Tokyo Dome shows did not sell out, and Sapporo was a disaster - they were giving tickets to anyone who bought a CD (not a Stones CD, but any CD) at Tower Records in the few days before the show.

The 2014 shows in contrast, sold out immediately (with the aid of a series of presales), helped no doubt by the fact that they haven't been here in 8 years and by the recovering economy. From a financial standpoint, I'm guessing, but I would estimate a 20,000 yen average ticket price ($200 at today's exchange rate), or a cool $10 million ticket gross per show. Demand in the secondary market was significant, especially for the 3rd show. It seems that there was more demand for these shows (at least in Tokyo) than for any tour since Voodoo Lounge, nearly 20 years ago.

It would also seem to be somewhat poor math to calculate a decrease in popularity based on simple attendance figures. Remember that people like me will throw off the calculation - I saw 8 of the 10 Dome shows in 1990.

What does this all mean? I have no idea, but I thought the facts might be interesting.

The point of my post was a response to bv's post..excatly as you point out, if you take some statisics but ignore others you can come the picture 'you' desire....I was making that point with the appreciation that there are other factors involved.
BV took his facts and came up with X
I pointed out that if you just take the facts I pointed out you come up with Y. (and at face value it looks equally convincing but if you dig deeper.......

I do get that there's all sorts of other factors and issues involved. (about the 100,000, I tried not be emphatic about this as I wasn't sure, I just read that somewhere.....

The indisputable part though is that the attendances have gone down albeit only from 1/2 a million to 150,000 (and not a million as I suggested)....I just proposed that maybe the setlists were a factor in that.....

I know friends of mine who have been around as long as the Stones have said they wouldn't bother going to see a bunch of "prancing millionaires playing the same ole stuff over and over again"...........so



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-03-07 01:43 by EddieByword.

Not necessarily Stones specific, but I've received plenty of survey requests from Live Nation...

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Grichka
People!!!

Tokyo 3 was the Stones saying bye bye to Japan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Forever!!!
The audience knew it, the Stones knew it. There was a something special in the air!!! Look at Mick on Brown Sugar!!! He cant get enough of it......

Yes, it's very sad when you put it like that. They've been around so long we take it all for granted but it really will end one day and probably soon. It's incredible that they are playing at the standard they are on this tour. I'm fine with the greatest hits set lists in this context because it is essentially a last hurrah to the biggest possible audience. (Or biggest possible given the gross that they require - and I'm cool with that too.)

Thanks for your enthusiastic and touching review.

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Statistics...........

In 1990 they played Tokyo Dome x 10 times in 2 weeks.............................................Japan = 10 shows ...(100,000 per night (I read))
In 1995 - Tokyo Dome x 7 times + Fukuoka x 2...............................................................Japan = 9 shows
In 1998 - Tokyo Dome x 4 times + Osaka x 2..............................................................................Japan = 6 shows
In 2002 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + The Budokan + Osaka x 2 + Yokohama.......................Japan = 5 and 1/2 shows.
In 2006 - Tokyo Dome x 2 times + Sapporo + Saitama + Nagoya.................................Japan = 5 shows
In 2014 - Tokyo Dome x 3 times......................................................................................Japan = 3 shows.......(50,000 per night (I read))

Maybe the samey, predicatable less inspired setlists as years have gone by, have actually been putting people off..........

1 million people in 1990, now down to 150,00 in 2014. That means they've lost 85% of their 1990 following.

Statistics can be made to say anything. Any info on average ticket price -- the real cause for the shrinking audiences?

I know, that was my point - yours of course, on ticket prices, is a valid part of any equation on this too.........I get that...

I wasn't busting your chops man -- there's definitely reasons behind the dropoff both from the Stones' camp and the fans' perspective. Maybe we should draw some supply and demand curves from economics?

No, no, I didn't think you were......

I wouldn't know where to start with the second bit but it looks like Mick (with his education and finance friends (or fiends as Ron Wood puts it) have been on it....

Hmmm 1 million in 1990 ....."I know 150,000 x a f...ucking fortune = the same net as '90...Bingo......... "

In economic terms, it's known as the elasticity of demand. More to be made with fewer people attending, at a certain higher price level.

For instance, let's assume we know for a fact they can either sell exactly 200,000 tickets at average price of $50 or 50,000 tickets at average price of $250, which should they go for?

In the first scenario, they would sell $10,000,000 worth of tickets.
In the second scenario, they would sell $12,500,000 worth of tickets.

They go with scenario two because they make more money (and can do it in one night, instead of 4!).

You can bet that a fair amount of analysis goes into pricing each market they sell to (and even deciding which market they go to).

This is a multimillion dollar concern.

Of course I understood the "1 show @ $500 per ticket is preferable to them over 10 shows @ $20 per ticket" scenario, that's straight forward basic stuff, what I don't understand is how they can gauge the demand before the shows go on sale?
Do the promoters literally send people out on the streets of these cities with clipboards months in advance asking people "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $X or "Would you go and see the Stones if the tickets were priced $Y etc etc?........
Is it that basic? ..........I've never been asked - but then I live in a backwater so I wouldn't really expect to be - and I've never seen or heard of any surveys online either....??

Yes, that's the hard part, what determines the elasticity.

I'm only guessing here but I'd imagine this has been honed into a bit of a science, based on previous concert draws in the area, how long it's been since they were in that centre, record sales, downloads, radio play, internet traffic and a hundred other variables that go into a software program.

Even then they don't get it 100% right, but they probably don't need to either. I haven't heard of surveying but I guess it's possible. I'd imagine that would have made the news by now though.



Seems to work though.

lol ...I'm guessing your guess is right on the button................ahhh, software, I'd forgotten about that....yes, software for everything nowadays.......cheers Treacle, sounds like sense, thanks...

The Rolling Stones at reasonable prices would sell extremely well but would mean more shows for them. The Stones at these prices sell but struggle; however, they make the same amount of money for less work. Which option would you choose?

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fahthree
The Rolling Stones at reasonable prices would sell extremely well but would mean more shows for them. The Stones at these prices sell but struggle; however, they make the same amount of money for less work. Which option would you choose?

Well, if you see it as work, then definitely go for option B.

At their age though, I guess you have to be realistic about just how many shows you can do, given the demand. If they limit the number of shows but have low ticket prices, scalpers will find a way to profit on it.

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Grichka
Tokyo 3 was absolutely fantastic show. Mick has so much energy it was like he couldnt get it all out. They didnt want to stop playing!!! My god, the exchange between him and the audience was so strong. I'm the only one who saw that???
What's the point of endless set list talks while they have just performed their last gig in Japan, and did an incredible job.
From Brussels Affaire to Tokyo 3 I have seen them so many times but Tokyo 3 was really special.

You echo the sentiments of us.

Mick said "Mata Ao Tokyo" at the ending of Brown Sugar.
That means "See next time in Tokyo."
I don't know if he kissed the blarney stone or not.
But who knows what the future holds?

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Compare the very good version of MR from Tokyo III with the tentative ST from March 4th and toy [sorry "you"] might get an explanation why the setlists are conservative.

Jagger wants to deliver a STRONG and plaudits-worth performance. Going out of the beaten paths with unsual songs (like ST) means a risk of going off the rails onstage. That's sth Mick prefers to avoid, hence the choice to play the tried and tested stuff.

As much I like to hear rarities I must admit ST sounded rough and frail while MR was strong and tight.

If you really wanted to hear the rare stuff with MT (Say Goodbye, Heartbreaker, CYHMK, Sway, M-Mile) you had to attend the Paris rehearsals...

The partially shaky performance (some vocal passages, I liked the instruments) of Silver Train could have its reason in less practice (Mick getting nervous), maybe even in insufficient rehearsals. Midnight Rambler performances are stronger also because they have much more practice with playing the song. And I remember, the first version in 2012 didn't sound as great as they play it now.

My assumption: If it's shaky PLUS the audience doesn't know it, so people are not able to gloss over the rough parts by having the recording playing in their heads, then the audience of course won't react to it in a good way. This means, the band would have to rehearse especially these very rare songs MORE carefully than every well known song to be able to perform them as good as they possibly can. Only then it will convince and win over people that don't know it. A good performance of an unknown song is more important than a good performance of a hit, regarding positive audience reactions. If the band or Mick were not willing to put that much effort into rehearsing (until really feeling comfortable) a rare, not well known song, it would be no surprise, if the audience looks uninterested.

I wonder, how the audience reacted to Lady Jane in 2012, which was such a sweet, fantastic performance, I would expect a touched, overwhelmed audience. Nevertheless the song was strangely not played again. Did the masses not like it?

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Grichka
Tokyo 3 was absolutely fantastic show. Mick has so much energy it was like he couldnt get it all out. They didnt want to stop playing!!! My god, the exchange between him and the audience was so strong. I'm the only one who saw that???
What's the point of endless set list talks while they have just performed their last gig in Japan, and did an incredible job.
From Brussels Affaire to Tokyo 3 I have seen them so many times but Tokyo 3 was really special.

You echo the sentiments of us.

Mick said "Mata Ao Tokyo" at the ending of Brown Sugar.
That means "See next time in Tokyo."
I don't know if he kissed the blarney stone or not.
But who knows what the future holds?

Is it really that surprising? These guys live to perform. The Stones are a band that thrive$$ on performing live and I believe they will never voluntarily retire. Only acts of god or man will end the Rolling Stones. Satisfaction at 80??? I wouldn't bet against it.

Keith used this guitar on It's Only Rock'n'Roll yesterday.
That sound was terrific. Really terrific with an irie distortion.
His guitar on IORR was like a stone axe.

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BV, I think you aren't giving your Tokyo brothers enough credit. Fans here are very knowledgeable; there are definitely fewer "casual fans" and overall, an older crowd, at a Tokyo show then there would be in the US. I think that a very large segment of the audience would know "Silver Train". Perhaps more than would know "You Got Me Rocking"

The Tokyo crowds were approx 15 years younger than the US crowds. So it is fair to say that the Tokyo crowd was in their 40's average, while US fans are 50's and up average.

This is not about how old, mature or sophisticated the crowd is. You may simply put a noice meter in the crowd, dB meter if you like. We all know that the Stones are known for their MOST popular songs, that is what the average fan want to hear. They have done this for more than 50 years.

Bjornulf

Full 3/6 show audio has been put up:

With Tomoyasu Hotei.