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Bärs
There is something in the smoothness and timing which isn't exactly like Keith.

Show me where there's smoothness in these guitar parts : to me they're pretty menacing = 100% Keith!

I simply love this track. The opening riff, Keith or not, is absolutely electrifying. Jagger's vocals kick butt. Bobby's saxophone is as slinky and nasty as ever. And those bongos in the background add a wonderful bounce to the song. A propulsive, raunchy, dirty, balls-to-the-wall classic. This is why I love the Rolling Stones.

Drew

P.S. I was really surprised that Keno says the guitar-work is by Stephen Stills (!) and Mick Taylor, and that Keith doesn't play on this track. If that's not Keith on the main riff, it's a damn good imitation. Also surprised if it's true that Taylor wrote the track but was never credited. The lyrics and the sound really have the signature of the Glimmer Twins.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-12-18 23:39 by drewmaster.

The possibility that Keith's not on this track screws up everything I've assumed about it. If there was someone on the planet who didn't know what Keith's guitar sound was, I'd play them this song and say "Here you go! Pure Keith Richards."
(This song, along with selected bits from Nijmegen 2007...haha.)

Since this song is credited to Jagger/Richards/Taylor, I'm guessing Taylor's contribution was the guitar. And the only guitar to speak of on this is not the fluid Tayloresque leads we all know, but...an astoundingly satisfying raunchy riff. There's no way Taylor wrote the lyrics, but the lyrics are secondary to that great guitar, and as this song was never truly finished, probably just Jagger's run-through throwaways to an extent.

It would be nice know definitevely who's on guitar here (with evidence beyond "anybody can clearly TELL it's Keith just by listening!"). But the jury's still out on this one for me. I'm not convinced it's not Keith, but I'm not convinced it is Keith, either.

Hmmmm, what was Blondie Chaplin doing in 1969?

Still have the original vinyl with the Jagger/Richards/Taylor credit on it. Anyone know why Taylor's name was later removed?

For those who think it can't be anyone but Richards on open G rhythm, listen to Stop Breaking Down or Sway (both Jagger), or Leather Jacket or Broken Man from Taylor's first post-Stones album.

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Bärs
There is something in the smoothness and timing which isn't exactly like Keith.

Well put. Could be Taylor in this case.

Almost like a showcase: show us you can rock like Keith, we are touring behind new material.

As usual Keno got everything wrong. That man can claim it's actually Ringo Starr singing on Brown Sugar without turning red.

Anyway, that rhythm guitar is as much Keith as possible. It is way to intricate to be Jagger, and it as all the Keith-isms that can be found on classic open G tracks like All Down the Line and Tumbling Dice, and even Plundered My Soul. Further, I think this is a live track, with live vocals, and there's no way Jagger could sing and play this guitar at the same time. This track clearly is from the sessions that also yielded Jiving Sister Fanny, I Don't Know Why, Honky Tonk Women and the slow Loving Cup -all open G tracks with the same guitar sound for Richards, a Gibson ES-330 through the HiWatt DR-103 amp. The sound is much more driven than anytime before or after. Zentgraf lists the Metamorphosis version as being from July 14 or 15, but I find that hard to believe. The tracks they did in June/July 1970 have a total different sound and feel than I’m Going Down.

Concerning the bass –it certainly isn’t Bill Plummer, as he wasn’t around in ’69 AND he does not play electric bass. It’s not Wyman, so it’s either Taylor or someone who stepped in that day and played with the Stones. Stephen Stills is credited with guitar in some books, could he have stepped in on bass? There’s certain similarities between the bass here and the bass on Tumbling Dice, so I would think it is Taylor.

Concerning the credits: ABKCO just made some stupid mistakes on the first pressing. Don’t Lie To Me was credited to Jagger/Richard and I Don’t Know Why and I’m Going Down to Jagger/Richard/Taylor.

Mathijs

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71Tele
Still have the original vinyl with the Jagger/Richards/Taylor credit on it. Anyone know why Taylor's name was later removed?

For those who think it can't be anyone but Richards on open G rhythm, listen to Stop Breaking Down or Sway (both Jagger), or Leather Jacket or Broken Man from Taylor's first post-Stones album.

I agree with you,Bars and Redhotcarpet that it's probably not Richards. Too heavy handed to play like this. Not 100% shure though.

Likely Jagger or Taylor
The song doesn't go anywhere imo,so in the end the guitar player doesn't save it either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 11:13 by Amsterdamned.

yes they probably didn't find how to make this song more elaborate
but it's a good one though
I like the guitar's sound, to me it's Keith's one..

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jpasc95
yes they probably didn't find how to make this song more elaborate
but it's a good one though
I like the guitar's sound, to me it's Keith's one..

Maybe just like pms,they should get Taylor to do some overdubs together with jagger, to give it that EOMS magic,plus the chord change at 0:45 doesn't make sense imo.
I like the he guitarsound as well, but it lacks the straight forward playing as Keith used too...or as I stated before, he's really shaky here.

I've always found it one of the least memorable tracks on Metamorphosis though at the same time probably the most Stones-like. Good but not great.

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Amsterdamned

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71Tele
Still have the original vinyl with the Jagger/Richards/Taylor credit on it. Anyone know why Taylor's name was later removed?

For those who think it can't be anyone but Richards on open G rhythm, listen to Stop Breaking Down or Sway (both Jagger), or Leather Jacket or Broken Man from Taylor's first post-Stones album.

I agree with you,Bars and Redhotcarpet that it's probably not Richards. Too heavy handed to play like this. Not 100% shure though.

Likely Jagger or Taylor
The song doesn't go anywhere imo,so in the end the guitar player doesn't save it either.

The riff is more intricate than you would say on first listen, and a lot more technical ability is needed than Jagger has ever had, to play the riff, and the little fills in the break at 0:45. Taylor to date has never ever played such an open G rhythm part.

It's like the discussion about Keith's part in Plundered My Soul -it's just ridiculous to state it's anyone else than Richards.

And no, the song doesn't go anywhere, and that's why the Stones never aimed to release it. As much as we like the tracks, Jiving Sister Fanny doesn't go anywhere but there's a nice drive and a nice lead guitar, I Don't Know Why is spliced together to yield a decent track, I Don't Know Why has a nice riff but doesn't go anywhere, Memo From Turner is weak, and therefore they recorded a new version with Ry Cooder.

The Stones never wanted to release any of these songs, Klein did.

Mathijs

this is your opinion, no problem
maybe you're right
there is an example, we know that guitars on Sway are played by Taylor and Jagger, so...

there is an example, we know that guitars on Sway are played by Taylor and Jagger, so... < jpasc95>

Right

And Jagger did a very good Keith-"copy" here..

Several people,, me included think it might be Jagger or Taylor.
with the exception of MR "Know it all", the most annoying person Ive never met , who attended the recording sessions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 12:56 by Amsterdamned.

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jpasc95
this is your opinion, no problem
maybe you're right
there is an example, we know that guitars on Sway are played by Taylor and Jagger, so...

Jagger sure knows how to lay down a good rhythm, with good timing, phrasing and, especially, a very good sound. But, technically he never did anything more than basic chording, whether it is open G on Sway, Stop Breaking Down and Highwire, or standard tuning Fingerprint File, Whip, Miss You and what more. Jagger never goes beyond standard chording -no additions of little fills, thrills and riffs, like a real (rhythm) guitarist would do. Compare Richards rhythm work on TD, All Down the Line or Soul Survivor with Jagger's work on Sway or SBD, and you will hear the difference .

Mathijs

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Amsterdamned
Several people,, me included think it might be Jagger or Taylor.
with the exception of MR "Know it all", the most annoying person Ive never met , who attended the recording sessions.

Take it easy on your insults......Mathijs have incredible knowledge beyond most of us on this board, especially when it comes to guitar-parts of recorded RS songs

To me - the guitar on "I'm Going Down" is extremely Keith-ish, in every way. Don't think Jagger would be able to play like that in 1969. I've played this song (in open-g) myself, loads of times, but it's hard getting is "exactly right", even though the chords themselves are very easy......you'll have to have a real good feel, to make it sound like the recorded version

It's only the "fake intro" (available on bootleg) that sounds different than Keith.....Keith doesn't stumble like that, usually
Apart from that, the guitar has the Keith style every step of the way, IMO

Well - let us disagree about who's playing what on I'm Going Down, then
Main thing is that the song has a great groove and riff....but that it seems to not go anywhere special, and that Jagger's vocals and lyrics are unfinished.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 13:12 by Erik_Snow.

sorry Mathijs, I was answering to Amsterdamned
And on Going Down, you also think there is no doubt it's Keith's hand ?

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Erik_Snow
To me - the guitar on "I'm Going Down" is extremely Keith-ish, in every way
It's only the "fake intro" (available on bootleg) that sounds different than Keith.....Keith doesn't stumble like that, usually
Apart from that, the guitar has the Keith style every step of the way, IMO

I always thought that the false-start intro is not how it was played, but a studio play-back. It sounds like the tape is rolled back or so. The false start and the actual start sound very much like identical copies.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I always thought that the false-start intro is not how it was played, but a studio play-back. It sounds like the tape is rolled back or so. The false start and the actual start sound very much like identical copies.

Possible! But....I don't think so. I don't have the CDs with me to listen right now, but if I remember correctly - it's evident that it's no playback - as one can hear the ringing of the chord* played on the guitar, as he (Keith) stops playing....which wouldn't sound like that if it was a play-back
Could somebody with the CD handy please check?

*=extremely poor english, LOL

Take it easy on your insults......Mathijs have incredible knowledge beyond most of us on this board, especially when it comes to guitar-parts of recorded RS songs <Eric Snow>

That's no insult. It's quite annoying and rude when someone puts opinions Aplomb, and wiping others people remarks under the carpet.
One cannot know for sure this is Richards. I think and listen for myself, especially when it comes to Taylor Richards discussions.

Respect other peoples opinions,that's all I wanna say,unless the truth is crystal clear



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 13:54 by Amsterdamned.

Briliant track with great atmosphere.Extra bass and saxophone with trade mark riff.One of my favourities.

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benon again
Briliant track with great atmosphere.Extra bass and saxophone with trade mark riff.One of my favourities.

Same here. Had Metomorphosis omitted the non-Stones demos and replaced them with some genuine Stones outtakes, it would have been a killer album.

As it is, it's half killer album (side and half mediocre (side a, with the exception of Out Of Time and Don't Lie To Me).

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Amsterdamned
Take it easy on your insults......Mathijs have incredible knowledge beyond most of us on this board, especially when it comes to guitar-parts of recorded RS songs <Eric Snow>

That's no insult. It's quite annoying and rude when someone puts opinions Aplomb, and wiping others people remarks under the carpet.
One cannot know for sure this is Richards. I think and listen for myself, especially when it comes to Taylor Richards discussions.

Respect other peoples opinions,that's all I wanna say,unless the truth is crystal clear

There’s a difference between opinion and facts. And I never present my opinion as fact. When I present an opinion you know it is my opinion, when I present something as fact I do that because I am over 90% sure it is true. But, anything presented by me always is open for debate, and when I am proven wrong I happily stand corrected.

By comparing this rhythm track to other open G tracks one can be quite confident, let’s say over 99%, that it is not Mick Jagger, Mick Taylor or anyone else than Keith Richards. It features all the little fills that Keith Richards is known to play in the 1970 to early 1973 period (after ’73 his open G work starts to become more straight-forward chording, without too much fills and thrills, and after 1990 his open G work starts to be mainly fills and thrills, with way too little chording). Then, the little fills and thrills are phrased in that typical Keith Richards way, very awkwardly timed, and very hard to replicate.

Fact is: to date, not one Jagger open G track features anything remotely like the rhythm track of I’m Going Down. Jagger’s chord work is much more simple and straight-forward. To date, Taylor is not known for any open G rhythm work, nor is he a very good rhythm guitar player for that matter.

So yes, I think we can present it as fact that the rhythm guitar is Keith Richards. And my personal opinion is that phrases like ‘Keith is more heavy handed’ is just a downright stupid remark, making no sense at all. Then you really have no clue about what Richards achieved with open G from 1969 to 1972. And it is an opinion, not a fact: your aim on this board is the make Mick Taylor god’s replacement on earth, and to debunk anything Richards has every done. And in my personal opinion, this is representative of your general opinion and view: illiterate, uninformed, ignorant and untaught. And that does not earn my respect.

Mathijs

Nothing more than a decent outtake on my book.

As to who plays guitar, until today I had no doubt that it was Keith (not a great Keith, for what matters).

Since the seed of doubt is posed, all I can say is that I am quite sure that it is not Mick Jagger and it doesn't sound like Taylor either (but I could be wrong).

C

Despite being unfinished, I like it for the "live" feel!
Could have been a nice addition to the concerts around 1970-71 (complete with MT lead guitar, of course)

If the basic track was recorded in the summer of 1969, the sax must have been an overdub, since Bobby first recorded with the Stones during the Let It Bleed overdub sessions in October.
I wonder why they didn´t do any more work on it, such as a new vocal and a lead guitar?

And that does not earn my respect.

<Mathijs>


MMmm.. I think Richards and Taylor where the best R&R duo in history.
They got the best out of each other,as guitar players.
Ive heard almost anything they played between'69-74 a 100000000 times, boots included.

Saw them in '73...


Taylor & Jagger are great rythm players too in a more subtle way, and able to copy or come close to Keith.Yes, In the case of "I'am Going down", I even have my doubts, very to your dislike. Unfortunately Keith cannot come close to Taylor as a lead player. I think this frustrates you a bit.


For the rest, you're rewriting your own history.

Amen.

†



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 15:29 by Amsterdamned.

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His Majesty

Thanks Man, this one comes in my bedroom!!><

Mathijs,
Maybe you're right, but to be honest it's very difficult to be sure who plays what with these guys. I remember Keith saying that it was fun to shuffle the cards about guitars.

I play guitar like other guys on this forum and I was very surprised when I heard that guitars on Sway were played by Jagger and Taylor...couldn't believe it...I did not ask myself the question...things were established.
Do you remember when you heard Sway for the first time or even after may times ?
Did you instantly guess that it might not be Keith playing on Going Down ?

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Amsterdamned
Taylor & Jagger are great rythm players too in a more subtle way, and able to copy or come close to Keith.

You have no clue.