Tell Me :
Talk
Jagger plays very much on the beat, and that's why I wasn't surprised when I first learned that Jagger played on Sway. Keith has a much more syncopated way of playing the rhythm guitar + that he plays fills.
I never thought it was Keith who played the rhythm guitar on Sway or Stop Breaking Down from the first moment I heard it when I was 12, but that's an easy shot: it was stated on the album sleeve Richards didn't play on it. At that time I was more amazed that they would release a track without Richards, as I didn't consider that 'true' Stones music.
Somebody else mentioned Brown Sugar, and that he was amazed that Jagger wrote the riff. Well, he did not, of course. Jagger wrote the vocal melody and lyrics, accompanied by a strummed C, F and G chord. Listen to Jagger playing it for Ike and Tina, and you’ll hear what he actually wrote. It was Keith Richards who took the chords, and together with Watts transformed it in to the monster riff and track it is, just by his unique phrasing, timing and attack. We’ve discussed it before, but this is why all tracks are Jagger/Richards.
Highwire got me, I thought that was Richards for a long time. Heaven is another one, always thought that was Richards on rhythm guitar. Moonlight Mile is another one, where it takes time before you accept the acoustic is Jagger. And the most confusing: Wyman’s bass on Jigsaw Puzzle. It is him, but I still find that hard to believe…
Mathijs
Jagger does the main open G rhythm guitar, Richards the lead guitar, Wood was absent due to a traffic accident.
Mathijs
The credits on Exile are obscure. It never says Keith is NOT on SBD, it just says "M. Jagger: Guitar". For years I assumed this was some secondary additional guitar but that the chunky rhythm was Keith. Not so.
[www.timeisonourside.com]
Count in Mick's comment,(see link above) Keith changing the rythm (great job) Mick's great singing, B Keys great sax solo, great bass,drums and a sneaky but very effective second and 3th guitar that work like a perfect glue, countless hours in the studio, and it takes >6 to Tango.
Besides from 2.56,Micks ryhtm guitar has more or less the same groove like Keith.
Keith was lucky to have those people around him.
But his intro riff is the greatest moment,it made the song famous.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 20:47 by Amsterdamned.
Sure it's not Keith composition. The YouTube clip proves it.
But he took it in his direction by taking Micks ryhtm guitar into his own direction,(maybe by producers or others advice),and there you go. He had his fair share..Simple and effective.
Count in Keith as a stronge personality, and people are "sold".
Live in particular.
Great song!!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 21:25 by Amsterdamned.
You really don't have frigging clue don't you...I never said this before, but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
Pleaqse don't! That would be a great loss for us plus "some" people would see your departure as some kind of victory...
Well, 'they' won, I guess. Internet has changed, and it's not a matter of who's right anymore, but it's about the one who's posting the most, the one shouting out loudest. It doesn't matter he doesn't have a clue -he has an opinion and shouts aloud 100 times a day because he is unemployed sitting in an attic in Amsterdam North...Well, pity you, but that's it for me, really. I am not going to be bothered anymore.
Mathijs
As someone who has experienced his own difficulties here, I hope you will reconsider. Your knowledge, as well as your opinions, are certainly valued. Even if I don't always agree with you, I always learn something from your posts.
Mathijs--
I just wanted to say that I've been a diehard Stones fan for many decades and yet what you wrote here really opened my eyes to something I'd maybe subconsciously noticed but was never consciously aware of. So, thank you, and please don't leave IORR.
Drew
...I never said this before, but posts by people like Mathijs make people join this board. I know I did.
I'll join the chorus of those who would ask you to reconsider this. For me, when Mathijs speaks on guitars, well, I shut up and listen. And to the extent that I may have inadvertantly sprinkled a little petrol on this fire--I hope I really didn't--, I apologize. (I had it in my head that Jagger came up with the BS riff while filming Ned Kelly...Thought I read that somewhere, but I get facts wrong all the time. Besides, that is really outside the discussion of I'm Going Down anyway.)
Thanks,
I don't know who came up with this crap story about me living on an attic and on the dole.
I'am not unemployed, at the contrary- I got a great job many guitar players here might like to have. That can be a reason why Ive got these rough and tumbles with Mathijs. I don't live in north, but in a nice apartment near the center, however there are some great places to live in north.
Hope you find a job soon!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-13 11:37 by Amsterdamned.
Yup. It's a serious topic, it's pop music, part of our cultural heritage. I'm really interested in finding out more about how these songs were produced.
Brown Sugar, Mick has an idea of doing a Stones song with a slight Mardi Gras feel to it. I don't remember what song he had in the back of his mind but this is something else, this is a rock song, a modern rock song. Midnight Rambler, Keith comes up with a perfect blues shuffle, Mick and Keith wants a doomy "Doors" feel to it, Ry Cooder might have added something during the Edwards sessions (the middle part with Mick on harmonica) but it comes out as the perfect Mick and Keith match, their own little soundtrack, the perfect interplay between a singer and a guitarist. And the way it develops in 1972 is just amazing.
How did they write that gem in Positano of all places. What is the origin of Keiths riff, did he change it around a few times?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Bärs
()
Date: April 12, 2011 15:57
Probably everybody believed once in their lives that it's Keith who is playing on Stop Breaking Down, Sway and even Highwire, or who came up with Brown Sugar. But when we know that that is not the case we suddenly think that it's obvious that Keith isn't playing, and start listening after clues so we can confirm what we now know. We want things to be simple, predictable and understandable.
The whole discussion is a bit strange since nobody has stated that it is a fact that Keith is not playing guitar. Dismissing the discussion as ridiculous is not a nice behaviour.
The whole discussion is a bit strange since nobody has stated that it is a fact that Keith is not playing guitar. Dismissing the discussion as ridiculous is not a nice behaviour.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
jpasc95
()
Date: April 12, 2011 16:10
well....things are ...not ..what they seem
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 12, 2011 16:54
Quote
jpasc95
Mathijs,
Maybe you're right, but to be honest it's very difficult to be sure who plays what with these guys. I remember Keith saying that it was fun to shuffle the cards about guitars.
I play guitar like other guys on this forum and I was very surprised when I heard that guitars on Sway were played by Jagger and Taylor...couldn't believe it...I did not ask myself the question...things were established.
Do you remember when you heard Sway for the first time or even after may times ?
Did you instantly guess that it might not be Keith playing on Going Down ?
Jagger plays very much on the beat, and that's why I wasn't surprised when I first learned that Jagger played on Sway. Keith has a much more syncopated way of playing the rhythm guitar + that he plays fills.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: April 12, 2011 17:15
The few hammer-on's and Pull off's played here are not quite the fills Keith used to play on songs like YCAGWYW or TD. Besides, the right hand sounds more light handed and a bit monotonous. It could be Jagger, or indeed, a stoned Keith.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 17:37 by Amsterdamned.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 17:37 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 12, 2011 17:37
I do tend to think it's Keith on guitar...But Keno's credits are wrong. That is certainly not Bill Plummer on bass. And was this really worked on at three different sessions?
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
ghostryder13
()
Date: April 12, 2011 17:50
i might seem weird but when i first heard this song on the radio about 25yrs ago i thought it was from the black and blue era seemed very similar to crazy mama.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 12, 2011 19:20
Quote
jpasc95
I play guitar like other guys on this forum and I was very surprised when I heard that guitars on Sway were played by Jagger and Taylor...couldn't believe it...I did not ask myself the question...things were established.
Do you remember when you heard Sway for the first time or even after may times ?
Did you instantly guess that it might not be Keith playing on Going Down ?
I never thought it was Keith who played the rhythm guitar on Sway or Stop Breaking Down from the first moment I heard it when I was 12, but that's an easy shot: it was stated on the album sleeve Richards didn't play on it. At that time I was more amazed that they would release a track without Richards, as I didn't consider that 'true' Stones music.
Somebody else mentioned Brown Sugar, and that he was amazed that Jagger wrote the riff. Well, he did not, of course. Jagger wrote the vocal melody and lyrics, accompanied by a strummed C, F and G chord. Listen to Jagger playing it for Ike and Tina, and you’ll hear what he actually wrote. It was Keith Richards who took the chords, and together with Watts transformed it in to the monster riff and track it is, just by his unique phrasing, timing and attack. We’ve discussed it before, but this is why all tracks are Jagger/Richards.
Highwire got me, I thought that was Richards for a long time. Heaven is another one, always thought that was Richards on rhythm guitar. Moonlight Mile is another one, where it takes time before you accept the acoustic is Jagger. And the most confusing: Wyman’s bass on Jigsaw Puzzle. It is him, but I still find that hard to believe…
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
jpasc95
()
Date: April 12, 2011 19:28
Highwire too ?
well...who played on that one ? M Jagger ?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 19:29 by jpasc95.
well...who played on that one ? M Jagger ?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 19:29 by jpasc95.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 12, 2011 19:37
Quote
jpasc95
Highwire too ?
well...who played on that one ? M Jagger ?
Jagger does the main open G rhythm guitar, Richards the lead guitar, Wood was absent due to a traffic accident.
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: April 12, 2011 19:54
Ronnie's accident the night of his father-in-law's wake was after both "High Wire" and "Sex Drive" were cut. There may have been some overdubbing during the mixing sessions that Ronnie missed, but he was otherwise present and accounted for. Pretty sure there are three guitars on "High Wire" during the middle section that is reminiscent of "When the Whip Comes Down" with the Jagger-Richards-Wood interplay. I know Jagger's playing the opening riff before Keith comes in just as he does on "Sad, Sad, Sad."
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Bärs
()
Date: April 12, 2011 20:05
There is actually no riff in Brown Sugar since there is no repeating melodic figure, only chords. If we listen to Jagger playing for the Turners he plays all the chord progressions there are in the song. Listen 0:37 forward:
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 12, 2011 20:05
Quote
MathijsQuote
jpasc95
I play guitar like other guys on this forum and I was very surprised when I heard that guitars on Sway were played by Jagger and Taylor...couldn't believe it...I did not ask myself the question...things were established.
Do you remember when you heard Sway for the first time or even after may times ?
Did you instantly guess that it might not be Keith playing on Going Down ?
I never thought it was Keith who played the rhythm guitar on Sway or Stop Breaking Down from the first moment I heard it when I was 12, but that's an easy shot: it was stated on the album sleeve Richards didn't play on it. At that time I was more amazed that they would release a track without Richards, as I didn't consider that 'true' Stones music.
Somebody else mentioned Brown Sugar, and that he was amazed that Jagger wrote the riff. Well, he did not, of course. Jagger wrote the vocal melody and lyrics, accompanied by a strummed C, F and G chord. Listen to Jagger playing it for Ike and Tina, and you’ll hear what he actually wrote. It was Keith Richards who took the chords, and together with Watts transformed it in to the monster riff and track it is, just by his unique phrasing, timing and attack. We’ve discussed it before, but this is why all tracks are Jagger/Richards.
Highwire got me, I thought that was Richards for a long time. Heaven is another one, always thought that was Richards on rhythm guitar. Moonlight Mile is another one, where it takes time before you accept the acoustic is Jagger. And the most confusing: Wyman’s bass on Jigsaw Puzzle. It is him, but I still find that hard to believe…
Mathijs
The credits on Exile are obscure. It never says Keith is NOT on SBD, it just says "M. Jagger: Guitar". For years I assumed this was some secondary additional guitar but that the chunky rhythm was Keith. Not so.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: April 12, 2011 20:17
True, by the same token EXILE's credits never state Keith isn't on "Shine a Light," but I don't believe (by my ears) that Keith is on "Shine a Light" or "Stop Breaking Down." I love Jagger's guitar on the latter, but if you isolated it then his weaknesses would be all too apparent. I think that's Mathijs' point about Jagger lacking the nuances and fills a true player would have. On the other hand, I first heard "Sway" when I was 12 or 13 and even without the sleeve notes, I wouldn't have thought the opening riff was Keith because the song never takes off until Taylor comes in. For me, Jagger never has the feel on "Sway" that he does on "Stop Breaking Down."
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: April 12, 2011 20:22
Quote
Bärs
There is actually no riff in Brown Sugar since there is no repeating melodic figure, only chords. If we listen to Jagger playing for the Turners he plays all the chord progressions there are in the song. Listen 0:37 forward:
[www.timeisonourside.com]
Count in Mick's comment,(see link above) Keith changing the rythm (great job) Mick's great singing, B Keys great sax solo, great bass,drums and a sneaky but very effective second and 3th guitar that work like a perfect glue, countless hours in the studio, and it takes >6 to Tango.
Besides from 2.56,Micks ryhtm guitar has more or less the same groove like Keith.
Keith was lucky to have those people around him.
But his intro riff is the greatest moment,it made the song famous.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 20:47 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Bärs
()
Date: April 12, 2011 20:43
Of course Keith's guitar part is great. But the intro is the chorus chords G and C played with the standard open G licks that even Mick is doing now and then in the clip. I don't think it's a riff and it's certainly not one of Keith's compositions in any aspect. Keith's part is great because of the perfect sound and extremely effective minimalistic approach which makes every single note count.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: April 12, 2011 21:13
Quote
Bärs
Of course Keith's guitar part is great. But the intro is the chorus chords G and C played with the standard open G licks that even Mick is doing now and then in the clip. I don't think it's a riff and it's certainly not one of Keith's compositions in any aspect. Keith's part is great because of the perfect sound and extremely effective minimalistic approach which makes every single note count.
Sure it's not Keith composition. The YouTube clip proves it.
But he took it in his direction by taking Micks ryhtm guitar into his own direction,(maybe by producers or others advice),and there you go. He had his fair share..Simple and effective.
Count in Keith as a stronge personality, and people are "sold".
Live in particular.
Great song!!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-12 21:25 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 13, 2011 00:31
Quote
Amsterdamned
Keith was lucky to have those people around him.
You really don't have frigging clue don't you...I never said this before, but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: April 13, 2011 01:01
Amen
†
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-13 01:11 by Amsterdamned.
†
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-13 01:11 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: April 13, 2011 01:24
Quote
Mathijs
but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
Pleaqse don't! That would be a great loss for us plus "some" people would see your departure as some kind of victory...
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 13, 2011 01:59
Quote
dcbaQuote
Mathijs
but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
Pleaqse don't! That would be a great loss for us plus "some" people would see your departure as some kind of victory...
Well, 'they' won, I guess. Internet has changed, and it's not a matter of who's right anymore, but it's about the one who's posting the most, the one shouting out loudest. It doesn't matter he doesn't have a clue -he has an opinion and shouts aloud 100 times a day because he is unemployed sitting in an attic in Amsterdam North...Well, pity you, but that's it for me, really. I am not going to be bothered anymore.
Mathijs
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: April 13, 2011 02:26
I did this once with less provocation. I hope you reconsider, Mathijs and just learn to ignore what rubs you the wrong way. You have too much good knowledge to impart to not have the site suffer from your absence.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: April 13, 2011 03:23
Quote
MathijsQuote
dcbaQuote
Mathijs
but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
Pleaqse don't! That would be a great loss for us plus "some" people would see your departure as some kind of victory...
Well, 'they' won, I guess. Internet has changed, and it's not a matter of who's right anymore, but it's about the one who's posting the most, the one shouting out loudest. It doesn't matter he doesn't have a clue -he has an opinion and shouts aloud 100 times a day because he is unemployed sitting in an attic in Amsterdam North...Well, pity you, but that's it for me, really. I am not going to be bothered anymore.
Mathijs
As someone who has experienced his own difficulties here, I hope you will reconsider. Your knowledge, as well as your opinions, are certainly valued. Even if I don't always agree with you, I always learn something from your posts.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: April 13, 2011 03:55
Mathijs - I've been to Amsterdam North. It ain't that great. Except for the winding two lane through the countryside.
Amsterdammed - I wish I was unemployed in an attic in North Amsterdam, instead of unemployed in L.A.
I don't take what people say all that serious. But thanks for being passionate.
Amsterdammed - I wish I was unemployed in an attic in North Amsterdam, instead of unemployed in L.A.
I don't take what people say all that serious. But thanks for being passionate.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
drewmaster
()
Date: April 13, 2011 04:58
Quote
Mathijs
It features all the little fills that Keith Richards is known to play in the 1970 to early 1973 period (after ’73 his open G work starts to become more straight-forward chording, without too much fills and thrills, and after 1990 his open G work starts to be mainly fills and thrills, with way too little chording). Then, the little fills and thrills are phrased in that typical Keith Richards way, very awkwardly timed, and very hard to replicate.
Mathijs--
I just wanted to say that I've been a diehard Stones fan for many decades and yet what you wrote here really opened my eyes to something I'd maybe subconsciously noticed but was never consciously aware of. So, thank you, and please don't leave IORR.
Drew
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
rocker1
()
Date: April 13, 2011 07:41
Quote
Mathijs
...I never said this before, but people like you make people leave this board. I know I am.
Mathijs
...I never said this before, but posts by people like Mathijs make people join this board. I know I did.
I'll join the chorus of those who would ask you to reconsider this. For me, when Mathijs speaks on guitars, well, I shut up and listen. And to the extent that I may have inadvertantly sprinkled a little petrol on this fire--I hope I really didn't--, I apologize. (I had it in my head that Jagger came up with the BS riff while filming Ned Kelly...Thought I read that somewhere, but I get facts wrong all the time. Besides, that is really outside the discussion of I'm Going Down anyway.)
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: April 13, 2011 08:41
I've listened to it again and it's the same kind of work like Georges 'I me Mine'...they wanted it on a album so they added a bass (Wyman), filler-guitar (Mick T), horns and congas...the original recording is just Mick J-Keith and Charlie...
2 1 2 0
2 1 2 0
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Bärs
()
Date: April 13, 2011 10:45
It's strange that no serious academic research has been carried out about these things. There should be several in depth interviews with all involved as long as they are alive. About this song it would be interesting to know exactly what Taylor's role is, who the bassplayer is, and why the name Stills is associated with the song.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: April 13, 2011 11:08
Quote
24FPS
Mathijs - I've been to Amsterdam North. It ain't that great. Except for the winding two lane through the countryside.
Amsterdammed - I wish I was unemployed in an attic in North Amsterdam, instead of unemployed in L.A.
I don't take what people say all that serious. But thanks for being passionate.
Thanks,
I don't know who came up with this crap story about me living on an attic and on the dole.
I'am not unemployed, at the contrary- I got a great job many guitar players here might like to have. That can be a reason why Ive got these rough and tumbles with Mathijs. I don't live in north, but in a nice apartment near the center, however there are some great places to live in north.
Hope you find a job soon!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-13 11:37 by Amsterdamned.
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 13, 2011 11:17
Quote
Bärs
It's strange that no serious academic research has been carried out about these things. There should be several in depth interviews with all involved as long as they are alive. About this song it would be interesting to know exactly what Taylor's role is, who the bassplayer is, and why the name Stills is associated with the song.
Yup. It's a serious topic, it's pop music, part of our cultural heritage. I'm really interested in finding out more about how these songs were produced.
Brown Sugar, Mick has an idea of doing a Stones song with a slight Mardi Gras feel to it. I don't remember what song he had in the back of his mind but this is something else, this is a rock song, a modern rock song. Midnight Rambler, Keith comes up with a perfect blues shuffle, Mick and Keith wants a doomy "Doors" feel to it, Ry Cooder might have added something during the Edwards sessions (the middle part with Mick on harmonica) but it comes out as the perfect Mick and Keith match, their own little soundtrack, the perfect interplay between a singer and a guitarist. And the way it develops in 1972 is just amazing.
How did they write that gem in Positano of all places. What is the origin of Keiths riff, did he change it around a few times?
Re: Track Talk: I'm Going Down
Posted by:
Vocalion
()
Date: April 13, 2011 11:21
Quote
Amsterdamned
I'am not unemployed and don't live in north, but in a nice apartment near the centre
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