liddas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> loochie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > liddas, this is OT but after all this time i've
> > never really understood the meaning of "grazie
> al
> > cazzo" in italian? it just doesn't translate
> > literally into english but it sounds
> sarcastic
> > !
>
> > never mind, i just looked it up on some italian
> > swear words website - hey i learned something
> new
> > ! ;-)
> >
> > 11. Grazie al cazzo (litterally, thank to the
> > dick): "It's banal" / "I already know it!"
>
> Well, swearing in Italian is not that easy! My
> mother (she's Australian and lives here since 40
> years now) still hasn't learned this art well -
> she repeats what I say, with the result that every
> now and then she comes out with some truly
> embarassing statements in the most unappropriate
> situations!
>
> In my context "grazie al cazzo" wasn't even
> swearing or offensive, maybe a little sarcatsic
> yes, but in a friendly way. I don't know how to
> translate it. For sure not it's banal. It is
> something you say when somebody creates a great
> expectation about something that turns out to be
> obvious. ST was saying that the weaving thing is
> common ... yeah common within the context of
> people like davis and alike!
>
> End of the OT
>
> Back to the topic.
>
> OpenG / ST as I said before, you can't tell that
> the stones have not changed the way of playing in
> the years?
>
> C


i guess in american-talk maybe we would say something like, hey no sh*t, sherlock !

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> Keith Richards did not invent the Art of
> weaving or playing rhythm guitar <<
>
> grazie al cazzo :E
> we're going in circles again - no one ever said he
> invented it.
> Keith simply uses this term for an approach to
> playing that he loves & emulates,
> and what Tod seems to have missed is that he
> himself says it's "ancient", not "my invention"

well, we are certainly going around in the ancient art of circling for sure! cos i didn't miss that point.... haha....this is pretty funny. nobody's budging and nobody ever does....

In my very ametursish opinion, when I listen to a song like "angie" from brussels with taylor and richards, to me that sounds like weaving. and that late 70's early 80's sound you had on songs like "Shes So Cold" or the early years with brian, thats more like the "melding" of two gituars together. both sounds are really cool, Thats just how I think it sounds.

As to this weaving thingy it does not seem to be as much in evidence these days as it once was, at least if the live recordings I've listend to and shows I have attended are any indication. I think perhaps it is the interaction between Keith and Ron that is distintive, or least least it was. During the '78 and '81 tours their gutiar "interaction" was certainly very distinctive and unique. There was nothing quite like the "dynamic duo" before or since. I think the same can be said of Keith and Mick Tyalor during the '69 tour. Their interaction was superb and at it's best at that point, at least IMHO. And Todd, if you have a recording of that Betts show I'd love to have a copy!

ChrisM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As to this weaving thingy it does not seem to be
> as much in evidence these days as it once was, at
> least if the live recordings I've listend to and
> shows I have attended are any indication. I think
> perhaps it is the interaction between Keith and
> Ron that is distintive, or least least it was.
> During the '78 and '81 tours their gutiar
> "interaction" was certainly very distinctive and
> unique. There was nothing quite like the "dynamic
> duo" before or since. I think the same can be said
> of Keith and Mick Tyalor during the '69 tour.
> Their interaction was superb and at it's best at
> that point, at least IMHO. And Todd, if you have a
> recording of that Betts show I'd love to have a
> copy!


not a problem - but maybe you can remind me about before our upcoming Pogues get-together. gorgeous soundboard - bruce and taylor join the parade for Spoonful and Southbound, in case you were wondering. Derringer plays on a very inspired version of rock'nroll hoochie koo.....

Na ja Todd! Look forward to the show. We should buy Shane a drink!

I love the "weaving" between Keith and Ronnie, but lately Keith has a tendency to solo in Ronnie's solos, and I think Keith is a much better rhythm player, so I wish he would stop doing that!

StonesTod Wrote:
Derringer plays on a very inspired
> version of rock'nroll hoochie koo.....

i just downloaded the standard commercial Rock n Roll Hoochie Koo version, that was some nice weaving too wasn't it...
geez, the radio hits now-a-days shure aren't what they used to be !!!

yup, loochie. hard to imagine something like that getting any commercial play or attention these days. Rock n Roll Loochie Koo

Musicians communicate with each other be it on stage or in a studio. That is the essence of what music is all about.
It can be called a form of 'weaving' if you want. It happens all the time, if it's good, you have a marvallous feeling. It is certainly not only with Keith and Ronnie!
When there isn't a lot of 'weaving' you can see it if you want to. Ronnie is playing with a lot more confidence now than earlier tours imo. You see him looking at the others more than ever. Keith on the other hand, is often more 'in himself' with his head down, and doesn't look at the others. Which means less confidence imo. The reasons why?
We can only gues I'm afraid. I'm generalising of course but this is what I see now.

Whenever Keith talked about the Art of Weaving, I always think of the intro to It's All Over Now. His and Brian's guitars mesh together so great. The Olympia 65 concert demonstrates this.

Been around a lot of great musicians. I agree with StoneTod's comments.

Yup, as of late, Keith has been playing way more leads and solos then he should. During Let It Bleed on the Biggest Bang set...he completely tramples over Ronnie's slide solo. WTF? Give the guy some room, Keith! You can see Keith shout out something as Ronnie tries to push through his solo near the end.

This tour more than any, Keith has preferred noodling way too much while Ronnie solos, which is not weaving but more making a cluttered mess.

Could it be that he doesn't remember the chords? (As a guitarplayer myself, I often just improvise leads and fill-ins when I'm not really sure how a song goes.) I've also noticed that when a song goes into a break or bridge or whatever you call it, Keith often misses out and starts playing fills. But of course when you have written more than 500 songs, you are allowed to make a wrong turn now and then, even though Ronnie rarely does nowadays... (I must admit that I admire Ronnie more and more...)
That beeing said; nothing beats Keith playing Start Me Up or JJJ. Not even these days!

The weaving of Wood and Richards is long gone. And, many dual guitar bands weave: listen to any Allman Brothers song, they take weaving to an extreme.

But, in my opinion, when Wood and Richards had a good night, and Wyman and Charlie were on top of their game as well, they simply were the best band in the world. In my opinion, they way Wood and Richards compliment each other on Whip, Shattered, Imagination and Beast of Burden from Hampton '81 is just unbelievable, They complete each other in such a tremendous way the two parts combined is more than the sum. They seem to be connected to eachother, and seem to know what the other will play in a few seconds.

I think on these tracks from Hampton they were best of the world, and no other band ever got close to the band that night.

By the way, it's very important that the weaving also includes Wyman. He was such an integral part of the band, and his playing made it possible to have to weave like Richards and Wood. Wymand provided such a steady, grooving and swinging backdrop that it enabled the guitarists to leave empty spaces, and thats the secret of weaving: you must know when NOT to play.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> By the way, it's very important that the weaving
> also includes Wyman. He was such an integral part
> of the band, and his playing made it possible to
> have to weave like Richards and Wood. Wymand
> provided such a steady, grooving and swinging
> backdrop that it enabled the guitarists to leave
> empty spaces, and thats the secret of weaving: you
> must know when NOT to play.

Too right. Wyman's contribution to the Stones sound cannot be underestimated. As to when NOT to play that is something many a musician I've heard needs to learn!

mathijs:

great points on wyman...there are times when listening to '81 shows that i don't even listen to the guitar players....his lyrical playing is worth listening to all by itself....

His playing on the Under My Thumb was especially good from that show. The counter melody to the main riff and playing on the off beats was exceptionally swinging!

audun-eg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could it be that he doesn't remember the chords?
> (As a guitarplayer myself, I often just improvise
> leads and fill-ins when I'm not really sure how a
> song goes.) I've also noticed that when a song
> goes into a break or bridge or whatever you call
> it, Keith often misses out and starts playing
> fills. But of course when you have written more
> than 500 songs, you are allowed to make a wrong
> turn now and then, even though Ronnie rarely does
> nowadays... (I must admit that I admire Ronnie
> more and more...)
> That beeing said; nothing beats Keith playing
> Start Me Up or JJJ. Not even these days!


He prolly doesn't remember the chords, yeah. I mean, all he needs to know what key the song he's in...and he manages to slide by. I'm not sure why he's lost interest in keeping the rhythm in songs. SMU, BS, JJF are the only ones where he slashes away.

To answer the original question...

Respectable

"You'll be studying history and you'll be down the gym. And I'll be down the pub, probably playing pool and drinking."

Justin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> > This tour more than any, Keith has preferred
> noodling way too much while Ronnie solos, which is
> not weaving but more making a cluttered mess.


When your hands hurt, it's much easier to noodle than to chord. I suspect Keith has pain in his left index finger, which makes it very difficult to play the open tuning songs. The appearance of his hands leave little doubt that he is suffering on stage.

I DO think the whole weaving thing is blown WAY out of proportion.. but not by Keith, he`s only mentioned it a handful of times, mostly in a funny way..

People that do not play guitar or in fact do not know that much about the technical aspects of music have taken this upon themselves kind of like a word of God, which no doubt was NOT what Keith intended to do at all.

There are some magical guitar parts though.. they`re very good at that in the studio.. for example: Shattered. The bridge is really one of those parts in which all guitars just melt together (although it`s mostly Ronnie playing)..

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, it's very important that the weaving
> also includes Wyman. He was such an integral part
> of the band, and his playing made it possible to
> have to weave like Richards and Wood. Wymand
> provided such a steady, grooving and swinging
> backdrop that it enabled the guitarists to leave
> empty spaces, and thats the secret of weaving: you
> must know when NOT to play.

Totally agree. The most striking example to me is Satisfaction. That song would have been nothing without Wyman's bass-lines! Also SMU has a distinct bass-line that does a lot to the tune. (Goes for a lot of other songs too, of course.)

ablett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And your point is? Sounds like 'splitting hairs'
> to me?
>
> There's an obvious style that Keith And Ronnie
> play thats different from the straight Rythmn/Lead

well "there is an obvious style thats different from the straight Rhythm/Lead," I agree ablett;
merely suggesting that that is NOT unique to ronnie and keith, imo; you've got the boots of various '69, '72 shows...even their first show with taylor at hyde park...there is already a lot of not only 'switching' or 'weaving' the lead/rhythm elements between them...but a LOT of both of them, flying around riffs, little licks as well as full out 'leads'...they really worked together very seamlessly on the creation of the classics and the performance of them...

...at a certain point, taylor's wild vibrato virtuosity was leaned on more and more for lead work, but that still dosen't erase the history of what they did together, as one glorious and groundbreaking inventive historic guitar monster band of all time...
that's the point i was trying to make and what i'm professing...simply that it's not unique to ronnie and keith...but also there with taylor to a large extent...and also with brian...who wove many colors into the mix, often not even on guitar...tho i understand mostly peeps are talking about the 'git weave'

i don't see how anyone could listen to eoms and not see aspects of this hugely, from the rhythm tracks on up...

i think the 'weave' thing in the more modern eras, has often been an excuse for sloppiness and laziness and drunkeness, not necessarily the great inherent 'looseness' of the band, that is still there imo...
tho i also think that keith was very sincere when he started using this metaphor, and i think that's part of his genius in all eras of the band personally; his approach as a guitarist, writer and conceptual visionary with all of this material and execution...and also, past a point, sometimes it seems like just plain hype of a sort...or wishful thinking.

as someone posted above, in all good bands, people are watching each other's backs, and getting off inspirationally on each other in the moment...
they are still the most fascinating and important band to me...
this is just a personal opinion and perspective offered into the goat's head soup here...

Ronnie and Keith weaving at their absolute peak was '78 & '81 Tours. The 1990 Urban Jungle in Japan was also a highlight of their weaving....quite a bit on VL tour, but since B2B it's dropped a bit more.

On record...Brian & Keith on Aftermath, Keith & Mick Taylor really show it on Loving Cup from the Hillside Blues boot, a.k.a. Loving Cup drunk version.
Ronnie & Keith Some Girls, Emotional Rescue, Still Life (especially Just My Imagination) Voodoo Lounge, Stripped and some on ABB.

the shoot 'em dead, brainbell jangler!

I heard the killer weaving in Lyon on She's So Cold FABULOUS! I let them know too as i was front row,sorry beely,it was as good as 73 just more vintage,that's what happens with age and i know they did'nt plat SSC in 73 just saying what was up with Woody and Keef that night. ,even Jimmy Page ain't what he was in 71, that said i like him way better in 79 knebworth more mature and know's where to go as far as the neck and the tone and sound's! Maturity rules!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-03 05:40 by stonesfrk.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The weaving of Wood and Richards is long gone.
> And, many dual guitar bands weave: listen to any
> Allman Brothers song, they take weaving to an
> extreme.
>
> But, in my opinion, when Wood and Richards had a
> good night, and Wyman and Charlie were on top of
> their game as well, they simply were the best band
> in the world. In my opinion, they way Wood and
> Richards compliment each other on Whip, Shattered,
> Imagination and Beast of Burden from Hampton '81
> is just unbelievable, They complete each other in
> such a tremendous way the two parts combined is
> more than the sum. They seem to be connected to
> eachother, and seem to know what the other will
> play in a few seconds.
>
> I think on these tracks from Hampton they were
> best of the world, and no other band ever got
> close to the band that night.
>
> By the way, it's very important that the weaving
> also includes Wyman. He was such an integral part
> of the band, and his playing made it possible to
> have to weave like Richards and Wood. Wymand
> provided such a steady, grooving and swinging
> backdrop that it enabled the guitarists to leave
> empty spaces, and thats the secret of weaving: you
> must know when NOT to play.
>
> Mathijs


yes, thank you for this post. after i posted comments earlier i was out and listened to several '81 shows as i drove around town on this or that errand all day, trying to reasess and explore this issue...and it was really exciting stuff...i've got some good soundboards, thanks to a great friend and fan, and amen to your comments about bill...holy smokes...it is just incredible what he does...i've a version of 'neighbors' that is sooo mind blowing...you can hear them catching off each other...bill and charlie i mean...
totally amazing.
bill is just plain amazing...charlie starts that extra open hi hat thing, and then he's off like a mutha...some of those leads will actually tear your head off...whoa...and it IS great to hear the synergy of richards/wood on that tour...
ty for including bill into this theeng here...i just can't believe the speed and soul and virtuosity he was laying down, and i was listening mostly for the git weave...and you're the one tho bring up bill's essential place in all that...holding it down...but also on a wild rampage of his own, totally synched in swing with charlie...amazing stuff...absoltutely...even bill graham's breathless excited introduction tips it off...this was very intentional and very rockin' great period...
and i do understand & appreciate the unique ronnie/keith 'weave' often in evidence in the '81 stuff...
tho i stand by earlier posts re: 'weaves' of richard/taylor, richards/jones, tho each has it's own dynamic of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-03 07:39 by Beelyboy.

<the whole "ancient art of weaving" thing is one of the great myths the stones have propogated on us.>

How many other bands trade licks like the stones? The substance of the expression is IMO within the fact that there are no distinct roles...

<In my very ametursish opinion, when I listen to a song like "angie" from brussels with taylor and richards, to me that sounds like weaving.>

You're right - they are weaving on Angie. On the bridge, Keith comes in with lead licks. BUT: The difference with Keith and Ronnie is that they do it all the time, and you never know when...

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-05 06:32 by schillid.