>> Half of it. I was unable to see any of the concert footage. <<

the whole thing is on youtube, if you look around - but the concert footage isn't the main thing i was curious about -
not much of it is synched with the audio anyway. but if you've seen the first part,
you've seen the scene where Keith's playing acoustic backstage, right?
so i'm not sure where you get such a narrow idea of what Keith's playing was like.

>> Red Skelton's Variety show <<

... unless you mean some other Red Skelton clips than are in common circulation, those are mimed to playback,
and there are parts where neither guitarist is miming what's audible, so it's hard to use them as an illustration, i think.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-06 20:59 by with sssoul.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so i'm not sure where you get such a narrow idea
> of what Keith's playing was like.

Look, this all started when I merely expressed earlier in the thread that the Keith-Brian weaving from 1963 to 1966 was my favorite. It was a very simple, harmless opinion. That then gets 'questioned' by some posters who claim that Keith and Brian did not in fact weave at all and that Brian was a very mediocre rhythm guitarist and that Keith did all the work. I merely challenge that notion or historical interpretation, and now you are attacking me for offering my critical assessment of Keith's playing skills. My point all along is this: Keith and Brian were very good guitarists and they worked really well together, period.

> >> Red Skelton's Variety show <<
>
> ... unless you mean some other Red Skelton clips
> than are in common circulation, those are mimed to
> playback,
> and there are parts where neither guitarist is
> miming what's audible, so it's hard to use them as
> an illustration, i think.

That is absolutely true, but one can clearly see Brian miming to those 12-string power chords. The TAMI Show performance was live and Brian is shown playing the same part.

mercy - i'm not attacking you.

yes, i know that very early on the two-guitar thing that Keith and Brian had together
was crucial to the Stones - thanks & praises, Keith & Brian!
noting the fact that that changed later as Brian branched out more into other instruments
isn't an attack on Brian or anyone else.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For
> the standards of 1963-1964, Brian and Keith were
> certainly weaving.

I absolutely agree, don't get me wrong. But my point is that in my very humble opinion it is fair to say that both Keith and Brian were decent guitarist at best in '63/'64, but certainly not outstanding. Throughout '64 and '65 Keith developed in to a much better guitarist, even developing to one of the best rythm guitarists in the world by '69. Brian never really developed as a guitarist, and I feel that the main reason is that he was simply was too much of a musician than just a guitarist. He was just so interested in all these diferent instruments, he just didn't develop as a guitar player. And, in fact, he didn't play guitar on record anymore starting with BtB.

> > By the way, Brian does not play on Sitting on a
> > Fence.
> Says who? There are 2 acoustics and Brian
> probably played one of them.

I actually really doubt if Brian ever played acoustic on any Stones song except for No Expectations. All acoustic guitars I know off are played by Keith: Tell Me, Not Fade Away, Good Times Bad Times, Lady Jane, Dandelion, Mother's Little Helper, High and Dry and I am Waiting (which both have simular guitar lines to Sitting on a Fence), Take it or Leave it, Think, What to Do, and from BtB on Keith again played all acoustic guitars.

Keith has always been a quite good acoustic guitar player. He was a fairly good fingerpcker, with an American claw-hammer style.

> "The guitar is my bread and butter instrument." -
> Brian, 1965

I have always considered this remark as "the guitar is where I earn my money with". There's a rare interview from '65 or '66 in I believe John Carr's book, where Brian does not want to talk about the guitar, but he keeps on talking about the harmonica, and he states that he considers himself a harmonica player foremost. He advices kids to keep practicing.

> > Off The Hook: both guitarist play a different
> and
> > separated guitar part. Brian the tremelo picked
> > guitar, Keith the slashed chords and the lead
> > fills.
> No, Brian played the slashed chords on Off The
> Hook and, again, you can clearly see this on the
> 1964 TAMI show. Mathijs, I think you need to see
> some more 1960's video clips.

I stand corrected.

>
> > Tell Me (lead and solo): Brian does not play
> > guitar on Tell Me, he only plays the
> tambourine.
> > Keith plays the 12-string acoustic and electric
> > guitar.
>
>
> Keith has only taken credit for playing the
> 12-string acoustic for this track. Thus, one has
> to assume Brian played the electric guitar. That
> solo doesn't sound remotely like anything Keith
> has ever done.

Sorry, Brian really only plays tambourine on Tell Me.

Mathijs

To ad: the power chords in It's All Over Now are not 12-string, but standard six string.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-06 22:11 by Mathijs.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mercy - i'm not attacking you.
>
> yes, i know that very early on the two-guitar
> thing that Keith and Brian had together
> was crucial to the Stones - thanks & praises,
> Keith & Brian!
> noting the fact that that changed later as Brian
> branched out more into other instruments
> isn't an attack on Brian or anyone else.


Amen and cheers! Yes, things would change. I wish Brian could have joined up with Keith on guitar more on BB and LIB. If No Expectations was any indication . . .

neptune Wrote:

>
> Amen and cheers! Yes, things would change. I
> wish Brian could have joined up with Keith on
> guitar more on BB and LIB. If No Expectations was
> any indication . . .

Brian was by the then too loaded, with whatever it was, to contribute anyhow, but he plays a lovely slide guitar on No Expectations. That's for sure! IF things hadn't gone the way they did, it would've been interesting to hear what Brian could have offered the music industry. With or without the stones.

[www.reverbnation.com]

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I
> wish Brian could have joined up with Keith on
> guitar more on BB and LIB. If No Expectations was
> any indication . . .

Or 'Still a Fool' for that matter. But I wish Brian would have stayed involved a bit more to the end, not only on guitar. He made brilliant additions to Satanic, and if he would have been a little more involved in especially Beggars I think he could have done some brilliant things.

Mathijs

hard to imagine Beggars' Banquet being anymore brilliant than it already is. For my money, the most brilliant album of them all....

[www.amazon.com]

Beelyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.amazon.com]
> r/dp/0887400795


Ha ha!! Thanks for the early morning chuckle, Beelyboy!

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To ad: the power chords in It's All Over Now are
> not 12-string, but standard six string.


We just liked the sound of it. We didn't think it sounded country and western until we read it somewhere. It's the 12-string guitar and harmonising that do it. -Bill Wyman, 1964

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually really doubt if Brian ever played
> acoustic on any Stones song except for No
> Expectations.

I know Brian plays the acoustic for sure on You Better Move On, as was revealed on a live performance for British TV in late '63. Brian also probably played the acoustic on Satisfaction. I think he played some acoustic on Aftermath. But yes, Brian did not play a whole lot of acoustic guitar . . .

> Sorry, Brian really only plays tambourine on Tell
> Me.

There is a slide-like note change on the bridge that sounds like something Brian would do on an electric guitar. The chunky rhythm chords sound like Brian. And the solo is just a bunch of plucked chords, something you declared earlier was Brian's signature style. But maybe it was Keith, I'm not a 100% sure.

I seem to recall Stone Alone mentioning Brian's guitar on tell me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-07 20:17 by His Majesty.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know Brian plays the acoustic for sure on You
> Better Move On, as was revealed on a live
> performance for British TV in late '63.

Yes, that acoustic sounds like Brian, and the electric guitars sounds like Keith to me.

> Brian also probably played the acoustic on Satisfaction.

No, there's plenty of evidence it's Keith. First,it sounds like Keith. Second, there's plenty of pictures of Wyman, Jagger and Keith in the LA studio recording Satisfaction, as Gered Mankowitz was along to the session. It's the pictures of keith with the ' John Lennon' sun glasses. Third, various members have stated that Satisfaction was recorded as a demo during off time in a studio, and Brian wasn't there during the recording. All members considered it a demo (and Keith's main guitar even has some obvious mistakes), but they released it anyhow.

> I think he played some acoustic on Aftermath.

There are Aftermath-era pictures of Brian and Keith with acoustics around a microphone, so yes, he probably did play acoustic on Aftermath.

>
> There is a slide-like note change on the bridge
> that sounds like something Brian would do on an
> electric guitar. The chunky rhythm chords sound
> like Brian. And the solo is just a bunch of
> plucked chords, something you declared earlier was
> Brian's signature style. But maybe it was Keith,
> I'm not a 100% sure.

I just listened with headphones, and I think you are right. The electric guitar, including the solo, is Brian.

Mathijs

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathijs Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To ad: the power chords in It's All Over Now
> are
> > not 12-string, but standard six string.
>
>
> We just liked the sound of it. We didn't think it
> sounded country and western until we read it
> somewhere. It's the 12-string guitar and
> harmonising that do it. -Bill Wyman, 1964

Bill then clearly is wrong, there is no 12-string electric. also, I don't know what a 12-string electric has to do with country. It's All Over Now does have a country feel though, but that's more due to the dry sound of the recording and the blue grass style bass.

Mathijs

A Guitar magazine interview circa 1988 has Keith saying he played acoustic on Satisfaction, he also talked about the fuzz tone etc.

I have a shaky theory that the pics if Keith and Brian around a mic from 66 are possibly when they recorded If You Let Me. I noticed Brian's acoustic has a pick up attached and If You Let Me features a rhythm guitar that has a sound similar to that of an acoustic with a pick up.

Hmmm, this made more sense in my head than it appears on screen, nevermind!

>> this made more sense in my head than it appears on screen, nevermind! <<

eek, now i'm concerned - what you wrote made sense to me :E
but anyway: is this one of the shots you mean? (and are there more??)


- 1966, by Stu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-08 14:24 by with sssoul.

Hmm, this is the pic showing the pickup on the acoustic, looks like I've got my pics mixed up.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-08 14:40 by His Majesty.

I have strong feelings about that phrase as being more of Keith's self serving band promotion. It implies a timeless richness and texture to the guitar playing that it does not deserve. I view it as an attempt to define the band's sound as being greater than the sum of its parts. It isn't.

pmk251 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I view
> it as an attempt to define the band's sound as
> being greater than the sum of its parts. It
> isn't.

No? What is it then? Each' members shining brilliance? Is that it?

Mathijs

in muy opinion this is nothing philosophical,
it is just a phrase that describes their relationship and rules regarding playing a song together :
the rule can be described as well like this : keith decides what i likes to play at any given moment in the song , and ronnie takes the rest.

a bit harsh,,,?

What is rather forgotten on this thread is how much the kind of playing changed at the end of the 1960s. Brian and Keith produced music typical of the 1960s. Remember how sensational a long song like I'm going home was back in 1965? But mainly it was short songs with short solos.

Therefore, Mick Taylor really was a typical guitarist of the early 1970s where any rock band had to have a brilliant solo guitarist doing stretched-out solos (Sort of 'guitar God'). The live recordings from the 1972/73 tours are most impressive proofs for that. It's no coincidence that the Wah-wah- pedal and all other kinds of obscure electric guitar sounds were very much in fashion (see FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE) because they really were a novelty. Listen to Heartbreaker on the Brussels 1973 bootleg as a great example.

But against the end of the 1970s the fashion changed again, and the solos were again rather limited in time. Now it's the raw sound that counted (see SOME GIRLS), and therefore Ron Wood was a great representative as guitar player.

Thus, weaving in the strict sense of the word must be attributed to the Taylor-Wood era but is difficult to connect with Brian & Keith.

I think - and just think - that Brian and Keith probably did a lot of weaving back in the day but perhaps the only ones who heard it in its full brilliance were the ones present at their house. And I think that's where Keith got the idea of how guitars should melt into one but that didn't happen before Ronnie joined the band.

Most of the time, again I think, guitarists who base their playing upon improvising, have a certain arsenal of licks and things they do variations of and if you play together long enough you will be able to predict where the other guitarist is going to go. In Ronnie's and Keith's case they had an arsenal of very simple (and yet so deliciously effective) licks and their arsenals and sounds were similar enough to enable for them to truly master the art of weaving.

From a personal point of view, I often wish I had a guitar partner that could compliment things that I do. I may sometimes do a lick and I wish I could leave at that and let someone else take it from there but it rarely happens. A few times I've weaved with myself when recording and added another guitar to do the trick. In fact, I think Keith's done that quite a lot but it's not quite the same than what it is when it happens during a live performance in the fracture of a second when it is its time. And that's what's happened to Keith and Ronnie a lot.

Unfortunately, Keith's and Ronnie's playing is not quite the same it was in '81. Those magical moments still happen every now and then but way too rarely nowadays, in my opinion.

saltoftheearth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thus, weaving in the strict sense of the word must
> be attributed to the Taylor-Wood era but is
> difficult to connect with Brian & Keith.


Why don't you listen to the first album, Now!, 12X5, and Out of Our Heads. Brian and Keith do weave, but like I said, the early 60's was a different era and their weaving should be judged in comparison to other bands of that time. It's unfair to compare the Brian Era with the Wood Era-that's 15 years apart!

artalta
i wish i was at your place (or you at mine!),
i sometimes think in similar directions as you.
then you might try my out as a weaving partner.

best
6853

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am impressed! What I see here is not endless debating if Brian Jones was an untalented scumbag who use very much drugs and beat up women or the biggest genious of all time, and I see the opinions even finding some consensus here and there, and even Mathijs seems to be softened in some points (good stuff in Amsterdam now?)

Keep up doing the great work!

- Doxa

P.S. I haven't seen good ole' Taylor vs. Wood debates for a long time... What's going on?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-12 12:27 by Doxa.

this ancient weaving thing , bla bla..

whe way kie has fooled us into thinking this is some very sophisticated complicated thing. And we take it as some magic truth from the words if the god..


i think he laughs all the way to the store

As far as records go....Dirty Work has some excellent weaving on it. Ronnie and Keith were still true guitar brothers then and this was all them. Even though there are lots of overdubs on records you can still hear the interplay especially on the title track.

Ronnie and Keith were the only true weavers in the Stones IMO. If Brian or MT were considered weavers with Keith then it does not match my idea of it.

It is complex to weave like Keith and Ronnie did, they had to practice and play together constantly to start to know when to play, when not, hear the other riff and lay off or even finish the others riff with their own, etc.

Mick and Keith stopped allowing Ronnie to be a critical part of the writing and recording process and the Stones have not been the same since.

Markdog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ronnie and Keith were the only true weavers in the
> Stones IMO.


This is historically inaccurate. Again, the 'ancient art of weaving' has ALWAYS been a part of the Stones' sound. Have you listened to any Stones music from 1963 to 1974?