In your opinions, which Stone songs (or parts of songs) best represent that masterful art of weaving or meshing of the twin guitars in that special way only the Stones can do?

For me, the Emotional Rescue album seems to contain several tracks which exemplify this. I love that "blended" sound during the instrumental breaks of songs like "She's So Cold", "Dirty Work" and "Let Me Go".

The Some Girls album has some great candidates too ("Shattered", for one). I'm sure there are several other fine examples. Any thoughts or favourites?

Mi two personal favs are the 78 / 81 live versions of miss you and beast of burden, studio and 78 / 81

It doesn't get any better!

C

the whole "ancient art of weaving" thing is one of the great myths the stones have propogated on us.

StonesTod Wrote:
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> the whole "ancient art of weaving" thing is one of
> the great myths the stones have propogated on us.


...and is something that should be left strictly to people who make baskets.

Is it bull. I can give you many examples......

please do - i assume we're talking about basket cases....

a little outside the box of what is generally thought of as 'the weave' as keith started talking about it regard to him and ronnie years ago, (i theenk that's when it first started being bantered about)
but i'd say:
sftd ya ya's...
a lot of the brian and taylor stuff too...
like all of eoms, sf, etc...

or like any two musicians or more that play together. they ALL play off of one-another.

And your point is? Sounds like 'splitting hairs' to me?

There's an obvious style that Keith And Ronnie play thats different from the straight Rythmn/Lead

my point is just what i said. keith talks about this business as though they practically invented it. all musicians "weave" with one another.

Ok, take Beast of Burden. Thats not a particular style typical of the stones?

>> Keith talks about this business as though they practically invented it. <<

when/where? saying "we call it the ancient form of weaving" isn't a claim to have "practically invented it".
and the blurring of the rhythm/lead distinction that this style aspires to may not be their invention,
but we could sure have a fine long talk about what Keith Richards has done to redefine "rhythm guitar".

(by the way, Keith's also used the term "ancient art of weaving" to refer to the "passing it on" process -
which he also doesn't claim to have invented.)

practically is the operative word here. like i said all musicians do what keith is referring to, but i don't hear them talk about it like he does...it's a given.

Thats your missing point, name any musician that does what keith is refering to?

StonesTod Wrote:
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> my point is just what i said. keith talks about
> this business as though they practically invented
> it. all musicians "weave" with one another.

I have never read of Keith claiming he invented the weaving thing. And it is absolutely not true that ALL musicians "weave" with one other (given we agree on what the word means!). As a matter of fact, some do, but most don't.

And I don't want to say that those who don't are somehow worse. Only they see music in a different way. I've seen countless bands reproduce on stage note-by-note arrangements that were studied before, because that's how they see it.

Of course these discussions are often led to absurd conclusions, because it is absolutely true that Taylor and Keith have sported some great interaction, and that Ron has played very often lead against Keith's rhythm.

But fact is that there is that the band does play in a very different way in 78 as opposed to 73. I like both. Some prefer one over the other. But what I don't accept is the point of those who see 78 onwards as a deterioration of the 73 concept, due to the fact that Ron could not play MT's leads!

C

... if a lack of distinction between lead guitar and rhythm guitar is a "given",
then how come the distinction is so widely used?

okay, maybe not ALL musicians weave - but just about all the music I listen to has this kind of spontaneous interaction....I primarily listen to jazz and blues and I don't hear anything going on between keith and ronnie that i don't hear in any of that other music. the only difference is in the way in which keith talks about...

Isnt the point that Ronnie was a copy of Keith and made nice fills and licks and bits like on Shattered, a great song. The period is 1977-1981 anyhow. Love you live is a good example. Some Girls too. And ER is the best aow album. The album is great when it comes to guitar playing. Of course, Keith was at his best when playing rhythm in 1972-1976.

"hear anything going on between keith and ronnie that i don't hear in any of that other music"

Go on then. Gimme an example!

anything by miles' great quintet of the late fifties would be as good a place to start as any.....that's about 8 hours' worth of example for you....

StonesTod Wrote:
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> anything by miles' great quintet of the late
> fifties would be as good a place to start as
> any.....that's about 8 hours' worth of example for
> you....

In Italy we would say thanks to the dick (grazie al cazzo)!

You pretend to forget that Miles is NOT exactly the avarage rock and roll band!

The stones are carrying on a way of playing music (be it jazz, blues, whatever) that unfortunately today is only a niche or, even worst, a "ancient" tradition

C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-02 19:08 by liddas.

well, two stones songs mentioned at the beginning of the thread -
beast of burden and she's so cold (studio versions) - were the songs i always noticed too as this "weaving" concept...it seems like two leads or two rhythms or both, just dancing around each other and it's so fascinating to listen to, at least to me. i'm not a musician in a band so i guess it must happen all the time - esp. in jazz - i just don't really notice it as i do in these 2 stones songs.
another weaving song example IMO was good morning little school girl on "johnny winter and live" - i always thought that johnny and rick derringer were just WEAVING that guitar solo, woo hoo !

johnny winter and live is an alltime fave album of mine, loochie. i was listening to an '88 dickie betts recording the other day...derringer was guesting and the three of them (warren haynes was the third guitarist) were doing some serious weaving....mick taylor and jack bruce were also on stage with dickie that night too.

liddas Wrote:
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> StonesTod Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > anything by miles' great quintet of the late
> > fifties would be as good a place to start as
> > any.....that's about 8 hours' worth of example
> for
> > you....
>
> In Italy we would say thanks to the dick (grazie
> al cazzo)!
>

liddas, this is OT but after all this time i've never really understood the meaning of "grazie al cazzo" in italian? it just doesn't translate literally into english but it sounds sarcastic !



never mind, i just looked it up on some italian swear words website - hey i learned something new ! ;-)

11. Grazie al cazzo (litterally, thank to the dick): "It's banal" / "I already know it!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-02 19:44 by loochie.

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. To my ears, a lot of this weaving is missing from the music played by artists on the radio today. I miss hearing those magical guitar moments and maybe that's why I find much of today's music so dull.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-02 19:25 by sf37.

Keith Richards did not invent the Art of weaving or playing rhythm guitar.any good musician in a band that has duo guitars weaves in and out and grooves.Its the nature of being a musician.

All this weaving is great for the guitar magazines.

because keith plays in Open Tunings and woody plays in standtard there is more contrast and its easier to identity the guitar parts and you think there is more grooving going on then other duo artists in other bands that do the same thing.

play that guitar boy

The weaving is more apparent to me in the live setting; most noticeably on songs like "Sympathy" and "Midnight Rambler."

Sympathy from Twickenham on Four Flicks is almost like the difinitive version of the weave. The last minute of the song is fun to watch the dips and turns both Keith and Ronnie swerve through with licks.

StonesTod Wrote:
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> johnny winter and live is an alltime fave album of
> mine, loochie. i was listening to an '88 dickie
> betts recording the other day...derringer was
> guesting and the three of them (warren haynes was
> the third guitarist) were doing some serious
> weaving....mick taylor and jack bruce were also on
> stage with dickie that night too.

ha ha !! i remember it as the most fabulous 8-track tape for cruising around in the car with the boyfriend in high school and smokin pot

thanks for mentioning the other stuff, i'll try to download it somewhere !

>> Keith Richards did not invent the Art of weaving or playing rhythm guitar <<

grazie al cazzo :E
we're going in circles again - no one ever said he invented it.
Keith simply uses this term for an approach to playing that he loves & emulates,
and what Tod seems to have missed is that he himself says it's "ancient", not "my invention"

loochie Wrote:
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> liddas, this is OT but after all this time i've
> never really understood the meaning of "grazie al
> cazzo" in italian? it just doesn't translate
> literally into english but it sounds sarcastic
> !

> never mind, i just looked it up on some italian
> swear words website - hey i learned something new
> ! ;-)
>
> 11. Grazie al cazzo (litterally, thank to the
> dick): "It's banal" / "I already know it!"

Well, swearing in Italian is not that easy! My mother (she's Australian and lives here since 40 years now) still hasn't learned this art well - she repeats what I say, with the result that every now and then she comes out with some truly embarassing statements in the most unappropriate situations!

In my context "grazie al cazzo" wasn't even swearing or offensive, maybe a little sarcatsic yes, but in a friendly way. I don't know how to translate it. For sure not it's banal. It is something you say when somebody creates a great expectation about something that turns out to be obvious. ST was saying that the weaving thing is common ... yeah common within the context of people like davis and alike!

End of the OT

Back to the topic.

OpenG / ST as I said before, you can't tell that the stones have not changed the way of playing in the years?

C