Dance Pt 2 always did it for me. Both guitars caught in a crossfire hurricane!

Actually the best weave is probably on Jagger's head. Is that really still all his own hair?

My favorite weaving era: 1963-1966. Keith and Brian were the best.

Which 1966 Brian - Keith tracks feature some shit hot weaving?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-03 20:05 by His Majesty.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which 1966 Brian - Keith tracks feature some shit
> hot weaving?


19th Nervous Breakdown, Stupid Girl, & Flight 505

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Which 1966 Brian - Keith tracks feature some
> shit
> > hot weaving?
>
>
> 19th Nervous Breakdown, Stupid Girl, & Flight 505

Hmmm, you think those tracks feature weaving!? I thought weaving was supposed to be when lead and rhythm licks would be heard all mixed up from both players...

Imo those tracks feature Brian playing real basically while Keith does all the work on fills and lead lines!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-04 12:10 by His Majesty.

Sorry, but Brian and Keith hardly had any weaving going on. Brian was always very basic on the guitar, just playing the root chords, either as full chords or tremelo picked, or he would just play a R&B Chuck Berry rythm. Keith would do all the fills, riffs and solo's.

There has alwyas been the statement by Ian Stewart that Brian and Keith practiced for hours and hours, and that you would not know who played what. It's a nice statement, but it's not evidenced on any recording.

To me, the only real weaving started when Wood joined the band.

Mathijs

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but Brian and Keith hardly had any weaving
> going on. Brian was always very basic on the
> guitar, just playing the root chords, either as
> full chords or tremelo picked, or he would just
> play a R&B Chuck Berry rythm. Keith would do all
> the fills, riffs and solo's.

Not entirely true. Brian plays the riff on The Last Time. Not to forget his slide work.

[www.reverbnation.com]

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but Brian and Keith hardly had any weaving
> going on.

Some good examples of weaving between Brian and Keith:
Beautiful Delilah
Mercy Mercy
It's All Over Now
Bright Lights, Big City
Sittin On A Fence
GOOMC
Roadrunner
High-heeled Sneakers
TIOMS

> Brian was always very basic on the
> guitar . . .

And how is Ronnie and Keith any less basic than Brian was? Sorry, but Brian was far more than a Chuck Berry-style rhythm guitarist.

> Keith would do all
> the fills, riffs and solo's.

Songs featuring Brian playing the lead riff and/or lead electric guitar:
The Last Time
GOOMC
Mercy Mercy
Off The Hook
It's Not Easy
Congradulations
Tell Me (lead and solo)
Mona
+ about 20-30 songs where Brian plays slide!

> There has alwyas been the statement by Ian Stewart
> that Brian and Keith practiced for hours and
> hours, and that you would not know who played
> what. It's a nice statement, but it's not
> evidenced on any recording.

Wrong.

> To me, the only real weaving started when Wood
> joined the band.

By Keith's own admission, weaving guitars have been a part of the band's history since the beginning (and I don't think Wood was an original member of the band).

I'm totally with Matthijs on this one. It all comes down to what you believe weaving is. To me it started when Ronnie joined. The wall barrier between lead and rythm was torn down and it indeed is as if both Keith and Ronnie share a brain.

Sure there was great interaction between Keith and Brian or Keith and MT. But to me there is very little weaving there.

I love some of the stuff MT did and CYHMK will always be in my top 3, but the magic of Keith and Ronnie weaving makes my heart jump.

you should have seen me weaving last night...ta boom...talk about 'art'...it's a wonder i got home without injury or jail time...ta boom...
...it's a very high art...takes a lot of dedication & concentratiionsnssssnss..taabooommmm

Promoman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm totally with Matthijs on this one. It all
> comes down to what you believe weaving is. To me
> it started when Ronnie joined.


Guitar weaving (in the Stones) started with Keith and Brian in 1962.

The weaving started with Brian not with Ronnie.

neptune Wrote:

> Some good examples of weaving between Brian and Keith

> Sittin On A Fence

This assumes Brian actually plays guitar on this song, I really don't think he does.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-05 12:07 by His Majesty.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some good examples of weaving between Brian and
> Keith:
> Beautiful Delilah
> Mercy Mercy
> It's All Over Now
> Bright Lights, Big City
> Sittin On A Fence
> GOOMC
> Roadrunner
> High-heeled Sneakers
> TIOMS

I think we have a misunderstanding about the definition of weaving. To me, weaving is two guitarists playing two different rythm patterns, and both guitarist spice the rythm pattern up with licks, fills and leadlines. The rythm patterns fill each other out in a way that they gell together to become one rythm pattern. One of the best examples to me is When the Whip Comes Down from Detroit '78 (Sucking in the 70's), and basically the entire 1977 to 1982 period. Check out Hampton '81 for the best examples of weaving.

With the tracks you mention above, there's always a fairly large separation between lead and rythm guitar, or between the two rythm guitars. Most of the songs have Brian laying down the chords, mosty tremelo picked (tremelo picking is what Brian does on It's All Over Now, and tremelo picking truly is signature Brian). Brian does this on 80% of the songs where he plays guitar, like It's All Over Now and TIOMS.

On songs where Brian plays the main rythm pattern like Mercy Mercy and GOOMC Keith would normally just add the chords like Brian would do. But again, the guitar parts are fairly separated.

When both guitarist play the main rythm guitar (mostly on blues tracks like Roadrunner, Bright Lights, BD), again there is a fairly large separation between the guitars. The guitars hardly ever gell together to form one part. You can always pick out what Brian does, and what Keith does. With Wood and Richards you sometimes truly don't know who plays what. For example, Respectable has several guitars going in and out, and it's almost impossibl to say who plays what.

By the way, Brian does not play on Sitting on a Fence.

> > Brian was always very basic on the
> > guitar . . .
>
> And how is Ronnie and Keith any less basic than
> Brian was? Sorry, but Brian was far more than a
> Chuck Berry-style rhythm guitarist.

Wood and Richards are (were), simply put, far better guitarists than Brian ever was. That is not a putdown to Brian, but in the end, Brian wasn't much of a guitarist. Even Brian admitted that he considered himself a harp player foremost. It's also one of the main reasons why Brian went on to play all these different instruments. On guitar his vocabulair on the guitar was very limited, and Keith had turned into a much better guitar player. Starting from Aftermath, Brian hardly played guitar on record anymore. From BtB to let it Bleed Brian most likely only plays guitar on No Expectations.

Brian's role within the Stones from '62 to '64 wasn't that of 'being a great guitarist', but he was the mentor, the guy who would lead the way, the guy who was fixated with all these old blues records. Unfortunately, the moment the Stones got famous, they immdiatly drifted away from the pure blues that Brian wanted to play.

> Songs featuring Brian playing the lead riff and/or
> lead electric guitar:

The Last Time, GOOMC, Mercy Mercy, Mona: yes.

Off The Hook: both guitarist play a different and separated guitar part. Brian the tremelo picked guitar, Keith the slashed chords and the lead fills.

It's Not Easy: Brian plays the chugging, driving Berry rythm, Keith the intricate lead lines in the back ground, and the fills on the turn-arounds. Check out Wyman on the fuzz bass by the way.

Congradulations: Brian only plays the little fills on electric guitar, the acoustic and second guitar are Keith.

Tell Me (lead and solo): Brian does not play guitar on Tell Me, he only plays the tambourine. Keith plays the 12-string acoustic and electric guitar.

> By Keith's own admission, weaving guitars have
> been a part of the band's history since the
> beginning (and I don't think Wood was an original
> member of the band).

Yes. But it took the Stones 15 years and three different guitarists to really nail it.

Mathijs

I'm learning a lot about this subject, just be reading all of your comments!

What would you say is the best example of weaving on ABB - - Rough Justice, perhaps, or maybe Oh No Not You Again? I do believe there is some weaving going on here, though it doesn't quite measure up to the prime period of the late 70's / early 80's.....

>> the best example of weaving on ABB <<

since Ronnie's ABB parts were done after the main tracks had been laid down,
i guess you mean Keith & Mick weaving?

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >> the best example of weaving on ABB <<
>
> since Ronnie's ABB parts were done after the main
> tracks had been laid down,
> i guess you mean Keith & Mick weaving?


Yes, you're right, that would be the case here, I suppose.

"Beast Of Burden" has always been the best example to me. "She's So Cold" is another good one.

For those who are musicians, you can tell when you're playing is working right with the other members of your band - when it's clicking. Sorta like love-making.

The "weave" is probably felt by the Stones even moreso - music, not love-making.

"No Anchovies, Please"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-05 18:27 by Elmo Lewis.

Regarding Off The Hook...

I'd say Brian plays the slashing chords(he played this part live), but that Keith plays the main low string riff and over dubbed the lead lines(he played these parts live). The deception comes from the fact that Brian's part stops for the lead lines in the studio version, but live he carried on playing the chords.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Sittin On A Fence
>
> This assumes Brian actually plays guitar on this
> song, I really don't think he does.


Well, there are 2 acoustic guitars on this song, so I guess you're assuming Keith played both parts. My hunch is that Brian played one of them.

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we have a misunderstanding about the
> definition of weaving. To me, weaving is two
> guitarists playing two different rythm patterns,
> and both guitarist spice the rythm pattern up with
> licks, fills and leadlines.


Yeah, Brian and Keith didn't trade licks as much as Keith with Ronnie, but the original Stones guitar duo did weave in the sense that both guitars blended together to provide a unique sound and flavor. Back in the early 60's rock scene, lead and rhythm guitar lines were very separated. Just listen to the Beatles. But Brian and Keith came along and completely changed that philosophy by making the rhythm guitar more versatile by providing the main riff, swithching to a solo (ala Keith on Its All Over Now), etc. They learned that through their blues heroes, and what Brian and Keith precisely did was successfully fuse blues with rock in a way nobody did before. For the standards of 1963-1964, Brian and Keith were certainly weaving.


> With the tracks you mention above, there's always
> a fairly large separation between lead and rythm
> guitar, or between the two rythm guitars. Most of
> the songs have Brian laying down the chords, mosty
> tremelo picked (tremelo picking is what Brian does
> on It's All Over Now, and tremelo picking truly is
> signature Brian).


Keith did the tremolo picking while Brian did the 12-string power chords on It's All Over Now. You clearing see this on the 1964 TAMI Show live performance and on Red Skelton's Variety show. Brian does do the tremolo picking on TIOMS and you see this on Ed Sullivan.


> On songs where Brian plays the main rythm pattern
> like Mercy Mercy and GOOMC Keith would normally
> just add the chords like Brian would do. But
> again, the guitar parts are fairly separated.


I disagree about Mercy Mercy. That perhaps is the greatest example of the Brian-Keith weave where Keith works his way around Brian's main fuzz riff and power chops with some intricate lead fills.


> By the way, Brian does not play on Sitting on a
> Fence.


Says who? There are 2 acoustics and Brian probably played one of them.


> Wood and Richards are (were), simply put, far
> better guitarists than Brian ever was.


That's your opinion and I disagree with that.


> That is not a putdown to Brian, but in the end, Brian wasn't
> much of a guitarist. Even Brian admitted that he
> considered himself a harp player foremost.


"The guitar is my bread and butter instrument." - Brian, 1965


> Off The Hook: both guitarist play a different and
> separated guitar part. Brian the tremelo picked
> guitar, Keith the slashed chords and the lead
> fills.


No, Brian played the slashed chords on Off The Hook and, again, you can clearly see this on the 1964 TAMI show. Mathijs, I think you need to see some more 1960's video clips.


> Congradulations: Brian only plays the little fills
> on electric guitar, the acoustic and second guitar
> are Keith.


The electric guitar is a big part of this song and that's Brian all the way.


> Tell Me (lead and solo): Brian does not play
> guitar on Tell Me, he only plays the tambourine.
> Keith plays the 12-string acoustic and electric
> guitar.


Keith has only taken credit for playing the 12-string acoustic for this track. Thus, one has to assume Brian played the electric guitar. That solo doesn't sound remotely like anything Keith has ever done.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > Sittin On A Fence
> >
> > This assumes Brian actually plays guitar on
> this
> > song, I really don't think he does.
>
>
> Well, there are 2 acoustic guitars on this song,
> so I guess you're assuming Keith played both
> parts. My hunch is that Brian played one of them.

There are many tracks with more than two(or more) guitars that Brian doesn't play guitar on... especially from 66 onwards.

Anyway, imo there's no way either of those acoustics are played by Brian, there's no concert footage of Brian playing intricate lead lines or confirmed parts on record that come anywhere near the style and way in which the parts on SOAF are played.

Heres the best exmaple of the art of weaving:





Jazzy Taylor filling in the holes.

1976 Abbatoirs: Keith and Ronnie





LA 1975 part two: Ronnie and Keith weaving.




LA part one:




Taylor 1972:






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-06 14:49 by LA FORUM.

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, imo there's no way either of those
> acoustics are played by Brian, there's no concert
> footage of Brian playing intricate lead lines or
> confirmed parts on record that come anywhere near
> the style and way in which the parts on SOAF are
> played.


What makes you so sure? There's no 1960's concert footage of Keith playing anything 'intricate' other than Chuck Berry double-stops. Actually, from all the live performances of the Stones from the 1960's I have watched, including the Ed Sullivan performances from 1964 to 1966, the TAMI Show from 1964, and the NME Pollwinners concert of 1965, Brian came off as the more impressive, poised guitarist. Brian absolutely shines on Ed Sullivan/5-2-1965 when he played Little Red Rooster. None of Keith's televised performances from the 1960's can touch that. Point is, you and Mathijs don't give Brian enough credit. I believe it was easily within Brian's talents and capabilities to have played that lead acoustic line on SOAF.

neptune, have you ever seen the film Charlie Is My Darling?

I love Stones, but if you want to hear real guitar weaving listen to Duane Allman and Dickie Betts on any old Allman Bros album.

That's the ancient art!

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> neptune, have you ever seen the film Charlie Is My
> Darling?


Half of it. I was unable to see any of the concert footage.

There's some cool footage of Keith playing acoustic guitar backstage in the film.

I'm a big fan of Brian's music, so I do give him lots of credit, but there's little point in thinking "Great playing Brian!" when what is heard most likely isn't even him.

I have to admit though that I like the idea of someone like Miss You sitting idolizing a part thinking it's Brian, but in fact it's actually Keith. Good times!

Anyway, my point is, there are numerous recorded tracks where Keith plays some sweet acoustic guitar. Brian was good on guitar to start with, but Keith got so much better. Excluding slide playing, by 1966 Keith was way ahead of Brian on guitar.

I have never seen or heard Brian play what I would consider proper soloing except on slide. Whether the SOAF parts are beyond him or not isn't important, it's more that it's just not like anything Brian is confirmed to have played on record or in concert that I have heard from bootlegs etc.

I also believe that if Brian had played the repeating lead acoustic part for example it would have been mentioned by Bill or someone by now as it is a cool song with very cool guitar parts.

But most of all, the guitar parts are just so Keith Richards in style!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-08-06 17:47 by His Majesty.