Tell Me :
Talk
Keep in mind pirates never made anyone walk a plank - that's strictly a Hollywood invention.
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
Completely disagree!
The full picture is quite different.
By the time Beggars was released Mick had been a pro musician for what? 5 full years?
And 5 years that are worth 10 by modern standards: during that time the stones had released almost 130 songs in a highly competitive singles market! (and god knows how many more were recorded or tried out).
We know that in 1968 Mick could play confidently the guitar and piano (at least good enough to "compose" a pop song by himself). I don't think he woke up one day and found out that it came to him by osmosis hanging around keith for years, so it must have been at least 2/3 years he was practicing and playing by himself. Paper, Puzzle, Devil and Sugar just don't come out of the blue.
The concept of writing a song alone was quite different in 1968 as opposed to the 80's and following. Devil and Sugar were very rough demos when they arrived in the studio. Later on, Jagger would arrive with the almost finished product, using either session men or - later - computers. So let's not overestimate those early efforts. Still lots of input was needed from the rest of the band.
You may like Yesterday's papers or not (I do, a lot, for what matters) but you can't say that its "intrinsic" artistic value (bla) is not in line with the other tracks of the album.
Same can be said Jigsaw Puzzle (for the sake of argument - I still find it impossible that one cannot see how majestic this song is): like it or not, the other tracks on the album (save devil and street) are just as good (or bad)
C
You're making my point. After 5 years and according to you 130 songs Mick insists that he had written just one of them completely on his own, YP, in 1967. And I believe him. Do you have any reason to doubt him?
What's the big deal anyways? He eventually became a great songwriter but it took some time.
And Sticky sound like an American group. Almost.
You lost your nerve, riffie. I wanted you to go full Big 4, as in: arguably as good as Beggars, Bleed, Sticky, AND Exile COMBINED.
I agree with this and what's interesting is that soon after Mick found his legs with writing songs on his own the hits stopped coming.
Am i right in saying Honky Tonk Woman was the last number one hit for the Stones. They missed Brian, no doubt in my mind he was the fairy dust when it came to hit records in those first five years, even though he had no song writing credits.
I'm not saying that when Mick took over the rein's the music went down hill, i'm just saying that the hits disappeared. Of course that could have been for many reasons but i never get the impression Brian gets enough credit for his input before the drugs got the better of him. He barely gets a mention here on IORR.
Many a true word is spoken in jest LB.
They've had 8 #1 US hits, riffie.
With Brian:
Satisfaction
Get Off My Cloud
Paint It, Black
Ruby Tuesday
Post Brian:
Honky Tonk Women
Brown Sugar
Angie
Miss You
If you expand the list to Top 10 US singles, then they had 12 after Brian, and 11 with Brian.
So, pretty evenly divided, all things considered.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 21:47 by LongBeachArena72.
Yes professor...
...but also keep in mind this thread and entire forum is "virtual" reality where sometimes things get slightly distorted from the actual truth.
_______________________________________________________________
But reading back through this thread, I had previously mentioned that Jigsaw was a precursor to Memo for Turner. It was late last night as I was rambling on and "sparring" with Dandelion, but with a clear head today I have to say that comment is probably closer to truth than I originally thought. Seeing as Memo was recorded just months after the end of the Beggars sessions, it seems clear that Mick picked up from where his Jigsaw left off. In other words, Jigsaw is like a blueprint for what was to come...it laid some groundwork. Mick needed to write and record a new tune for Performance, so he naturally chose one of the only two songs he'd ever written entirely on his own, that being Jigsaw recorded just a few months earlier. It's an obvious natural progression and evolution, and while there may be hints of previous stuff from Buttons in Jigsaw, the connection to Memo is far more pronounced imo. For me, Memo is the superior, smarter, and more mature cousin to Jigsaw - both lyrically and musically, and to take it a step further it's the only solo Jagger tune that really matters IMO.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
HTW was their last number one hit the UK
You're American you don't really count , this is an English band
Just kidding BTW
[www.onlineweb.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 22:10 by stone4ever.
Too true LB, there are a lot of irritating Americanisms in the way Mick sings certain songs. Its completely phony and fake. It sounds uncomfortable from a British perspective, i don't know how it sounds to you, be honest Micks not fooling anyone, it doesn't sound authentic in the least.
I would say Keith is definitely an adopted American, he lives there, he loves it and they love him. Keith has said himself when he comes back to London its unrecognizable from when he was younger in many ways. London is beyond recognition when i go there, he has a point.
Mick, well Micks many things to many people, i doubt he has any allegiance to England although he does spend a lot of time here now.
The Stones are nomads aren't they, Keith's like a Pirate, he lives like that he plays like that.
Obviously most of their influences are from America and American music, as was so many 60's bands, The Kinks, The Animals, Led Zepp Pink Floyd, we all owe a lot to American music for sure.
Party Doll ?? That to me sounds like Mick is doing a strong American Southern drawl accent. really irritating imho, i'm surprised that sounds English to you,
Have you had a hearing test lately sir.
Just played it, Party Doll, i see what you mean, its very folk isn't it.
I actually love it, why did i think it was shit
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 22:46 by stone4ever.
Had never really considered a connection between "Jigsaw Puzzle" and "Memo from Turner" ... but I think what you suggest above is plausible. There is a similarity between the two and the timeline makes sense.
That reads kinda cold, did you mean it like that?
They have enough money. YES of course they have the distinction of being a top ticket- because it's a top/A grade show.
I was thinking about how much I paid for a Paul McCartney ticket/ arena/ 2016
Same pricing as RS, and Paul McCartney show is a top/ A grade too, Beatles, etc.
My point, to keep going, it has to turn them on still. And the greet/ roar/ energy from the fans I would like to think feeds them. If that's what you mean by fame, because every other aspect of it sucks.
I didn't express myself clearly enough. I wasn't trying to cast judgment on the authenticity of Mick's 'Americanisms.' I wondered about two things:
1) Is there a difference between mining musical territory that is from your home (Dylan) or from another land (Mick and Keith)? Is music just music and it doesn't matter where you're from ... or is there some 'advantage,' musically speaking, some additional credibility/authenticity if you come from the place you're exploring?
2) Is Mick more 'English,' musically speaking, than Keith? Does he come more out of the English folk and/or music hall tradition than Keith?
By way of comparison, I was listening to the 4th Zeppelin album tonight and more than half those songs are steeped in the English folk tradition. (This from a band who stands accused of ripping off black American musicians.) Zepp, while certainly of course a worldwide phenomenon, never lost that essential Englishness, in my opinion, while The Stones were truly, as riffie suggests, more like musical nomads.
Yes, that's exactly the question, 35L. You go on to list audience-related things that might 'turn them on.' I'm sure those things do turn one on; how could they not? Gotta be intoxicating and hard to replace ...
What interests me more is: does playing those songs still turn them on? They've played the same set for 30 years or so ... do they look at each show as an opportunity, musically speaking, to explore, get better, try different approaches, in order to keep the material fresh and their creative juices flowing?
I would maintain that the answer to that question is: no. That what sustains and drives them are, as you suggest, the adulation of the crowd, and as wonderboy says, the $$$.
Didn't mean it to be cold or dismissive. Just realistic.
Here's a way to look at it.
Dylan has very low overhead. He doesn't have a lot of musicians and people to support. He can afford to play small places and really doesn't need to sell many records. He couldn't fill large places, but bear with me on this. He is like a mom and pop business. He deliberately walked away from being the 'voice of his generation' probably for self-preservation, but also because he can do what he wants, doesn't have to live up to anything for the public.
By contrast, the Stones are a huge machine. Four members who must be paid. Lots of extra musicians who have to be paid. Guitar techs and personal assistants. Houses in many continents. Lots of children to support. Ex-wives and women to support. They are generous in ways we don't know, are probably sending checks to all kinds of people.
So they have to earn big money. If they wanted to tour small clubs it would cost them.
Plus that 'world's great rock and roll band' has become a millstone around their necks. They have to be 'the Stones, man', at all times. Mick tried to get away from that in his solo career, but didn't sell enough to break free (if that is what he wanted, and I suspect he did.) Keith's solo career is just a side project that probably costs more than it earns, but, like Mick, he made the decision back in the late '80s to keep the band together and monetize the brand.
Still - I Know that there is a huge difference between introducing a song to the band, when it is you with one or two partners. You come as kind of a team, and you feel kind of sure about what you got, because the kinks have already been tackled.
Coming out alone, with a guitar, and saying "this is what I have", is hard always. I suspect it would have been especially hard for him to play it to Keith.
But I don't really know if this had not happened earlier. Or of these were the first songs he brought out alone.
That said I think this would be an incredible title, or headline for a book or essay on Jagger. "Paper, Puzzle, Devil & Sugar".
An understatement. Let's readjust it: "Jig-Saw Puzzle" is a wonderful track in a brilliant album.
- Doxa
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:57
Quote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Hairball
OK it's all good...
Off my favourite Stones album? That's hard, man..
Well, it might be Dear Doctor (but it hurts me to say)...
OK - confession time is over, you're off the hook...
Keep in mind pirates never made anyone walk a plank - that's strictly a Hollywood invention.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
ryanpow
()
Date: June 30, 2017 16:56
I've always thought Jigsaw Puzzle was an interesting song. I used to think of it as them attempting something that they later perfected on the song Let It Bleed, but ended up sounding cool anyways. These days I think it is at least just as good as Let It Bleed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 16:57 by ryanpow.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 16:57 by ryanpow.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Swayed1967
()
Date: June 30, 2017 18:03
Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: June 30, 2017 19:13
Quote
Swayed1967Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
Completely disagree!
The full picture is quite different.
By the time Beggars was released Mick had been a pro musician for what? 5 full years?
And 5 years that are worth 10 by modern standards: during that time the stones had released almost 130 songs in a highly competitive singles market! (and god knows how many more were recorded or tried out).
We know that in 1968 Mick could play confidently the guitar and piano (at least good enough to "compose" a pop song by himself). I don't think he woke up one day and found out that it came to him by osmosis hanging around keith for years, so it must have been at least 2/3 years he was practicing and playing by himself. Paper, Puzzle, Devil and Sugar just don't come out of the blue.
The concept of writing a song alone was quite different in 1968 as opposed to the 80's and following. Devil and Sugar were very rough demos when they arrived in the studio. Later on, Jagger would arrive with the almost finished product, using either session men or - later - computers. So let's not overestimate those early efforts. Still lots of input was needed from the rest of the band.
You may like Yesterday's papers or not (I do, a lot, for what matters) but you can't say that its "intrinsic" artistic value (bla) is not in line with the other tracks of the album.
Same can be said Jigsaw Puzzle (for the sake of argument - I still find it impossible that one cannot see how majestic this song is): like it or not, the other tracks on the album (save devil and street) are just as good (or bad)
C
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Swayed1967
()
Date: June 30, 2017 19:38
Quote
liddas
[
Completely disagree!
The full picture is quite different.
By the time Beggars was released Mick had been a pro musician for what? 5 full years?
And 5 years that are worth 10 by modern standards: during that time the stones had released almost 130 songs in a highly competitive singles market! (and god knows how many more were recorded or tried out).
C
You're making my point. After 5 years and according to you 130 songs Mick insists that he had written just one of them completely on his own, YP, in 1967. And I believe him. Do you have any reason to doubt him?
What's the big deal anyways? He eventually became a great songwriter but it took some time.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: June 30, 2017 20:44
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
matxil
Funny how you all think JigSaw Puzzle is so different from the other songs. I never thought about it like that. I also don't see the connection between JigSaw and Between the Buttons. For me, it fits in perfectly with the rest, Parachute Woman, Salt of the Earth, Prodigal Song, some more blues, some more country, some more "folk". The Dylan influence is clear on JigSaw Puzzle, especially in the lyrics, but the overall feel is perfect Beggars Banquet: decadent, sexy rock n roll, with the emphasis on roll.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
Do you hear Brian adding colour to those other songs? I think the aswer lies there..
Who's Been Sleeping Here was what I was referring to on Buttons. That might have been the first Dylan-esque tune they wrote.
One of teh great themes in the past here in IORR has been discussing and critizising the supposed huge gap between BEGGARS BANQUET and the previous, more poppish and psychedelic era albums BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and especially THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES, as is traditionally emphasizied in rock journalism. Surely there is a gap and BEGGARS has this 'back to the roots' basic feel in it, but at the same time thereare still so many things from their previous musical experiments which are still continued in BEGGARS. They were still a pretty experimental band by nature, and, like The Beatles, basically a studio band, making new, exciting-sounding recordings and albums being the main purpose of their whole existence. Some experiments were different by nature - for example, what Keth did with his Philips cassette recorder in "Street Fighting Man" and "Jumpin' Jack Flash", or the ackward decision to use a samba in rock and roll song - not to forget all those more 'typical' Brian or Brian-type 'colourings' in some songs, like here discussed in "Jig-Saw Puzzle", or the tamboura in "Street Fighting Man". I think a big charm of BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED as well (they aren't that different) is the typical 60's like brave experimentalism married with a simple back-to-the-roots rhythm and blues. IN STICKY FINGERS, by contrast, most of it is compansated or substituted by a professional sounding, genre-perfect modern rock band sound, cultivated by playing live again. A clear symptom of from STICKY FINGERS on the difference between studio and live versions of the songs aren't that big as is with BEGGARS/BLEED material - that mostly needed to be re-arranged to fit to a modern rock show.
- Doxa
And Sticky sound like an American group. Almost.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:25
Quote
stone4ever
I'd go further, its the best album since Exile and arguably as good in some respects.
You lost your nerve, riffie. I wanted you to go full Big 4, as in: arguably as good as Beggars, Bleed, Sticky, AND Exile COMBINED.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:27
Who wrote "Stray Cat Blues"? Cuz that's MY favorite Beggars track ... unless that bastard Richards wrote it and then I hate it.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:34
I am surprised to learn that "Jigsaw Puzzle" is a Mick-only composition, if for no other reason than the lyrics are puerile pseudo-Dylan and the band as a whole kicks such major ass. Has Nicky ever been bad? Wonderful, inventive bassline by Bill, frantic percussive acoustic guitar by KR; all fantastic stuff.
Perhaps MJ was so concerned with writing the music that he forgot to upgrade his words ...
Still only the 5th best song on Beggars, though:
1. SCB
2. NE
3. SFM
4. SFTD
5. JP
Perhaps MJ was so concerned with writing the music that he forgot to upgrade his words ...
Still only the 5th best song on Beggars, though:
1. SCB
2. NE
3. SFM
4. SFTD
5. JP
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:36
Quote
Swayed1967Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
I agree with this and what's interesting is that soon after Mick found his legs with writing songs on his own the hits stopped coming.
Am i right in saying Honky Tonk Woman was the last number one hit for the Stones. They missed Brian, no doubt in my mind he was the fairy dust when it came to hit records in those first five years, even though he had no song writing credits.
I'm not saying that when Mick took over the rein's the music went down hill, i'm just saying that the hits disappeared. Of course that could have been for many reasons but i never get the impression Brian gets enough credit for his input before the drugs got the better of him. He barely gets a mention here on IORR.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:40
Quote
LongBeachArena72
Who wrote "Stray Cat Blues"? Cuz that's MY favorite Beggars track ... unless that bastard Richards wrote it and then I hate it.
Many a true word is spoken in jest LB.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:44
Quote
stone4everQuote
Swayed1967Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
I agree with this and what's interesting is that soon after Mick found his legs with writing songs on his own the hits stopped coming.
Am i right in saying Honky Tonk Woman was the last number one hit for the Stones. They missed Brian, no doubt in my mind he was the fairy dust when it came to hit records in those first five years, even though he had no song writing credits.
I'm not saying that when Mick took over the rein's the music went down hill, i'm just saying that the hits disappeared. Of course that could have been for many reasons but i never get the impression Brian gets enough credit for his input before the drugs got the better of him. He barely gets a mention here on IORR.
They've had 8 #1 US hits, riffie.
With Brian:
Satisfaction
Get Off My Cloud
Paint It, Black
Ruby Tuesday
Post Brian:
Honky Tonk Women
Brown Sugar
Angie
Miss You
If you expand the list to Top 10 US singles, then they had 12 after Brian, and 11 with Brian.
So, pretty evenly divided, all things considered.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 21:47 by LongBeachArena72.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 21:59
Quote
GasLightStreetQuote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Hairball
OK it's all good...
Off my favourite Stones album? That's hard, man..
Well, it might be Dear Doctor (but it hurts me to say)...
OK - confession time is over, you're off the hook...
Keep in mind pirates never made anyone walk a plank - that's strictly a Hollywood invention.
Yes professor...
...but also keep in mind this thread and entire forum is "virtual" reality where sometimes things get slightly distorted from the actual truth._______________________________________________________________
But reading back through this thread, I had previously mentioned that Jigsaw was a precursor to Memo for Turner. It was late last night as I was rambling on and "sparring" with Dandelion, but with a clear head today I have to say that comment is probably closer to truth than I originally thought. Seeing as Memo was recorded just months after the end of the Beggars sessions, it seems clear that Mick picked up from where his Jigsaw left off. In other words, Jigsaw is like a blueprint for what was to come...it laid some groundwork. Mick needed to write and record a new tune for Performance, so he naturally chose one of the only two songs he'd ever written entirely on his own, that being Jigsaw recorded just a few months earlier. It's an obvious natural progression and evolution, and while there may be hints of previous stuff from Buttons in Jigsaw, the connection to Memo is far more pronounced imo. For me, Memo is the superior, smarter, and more mature cousin to Jigsaw - both lyrically and musically, and to take it a step further it's the only solo Jagger tune that really matters IMO.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 22:01
Quote
LongBeachArena72Quote
stone4everQuote
Swayed1967Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
I agree with this and what's interesting is that soon after Mick found his legs with writing songs on his own the hits stopped coming.
Am i right in saying Honky Tonk Woman was the last number one hit for the Stones. They missed Brian, no doubt in my mind he was the fairy dust when it came to hit records in those first five years, even though he had no song writing credits.
I'm not saying that when Mick took over the rein's the music went down hill, i'm just saying that the hits disappeared. Of course that could have been for many reasons but i never get the impression Brian gets enough credit for his input before the drugs got the better of him. He barely gets a mention here on IORR.
They've had 8 #1 US hits, riffie.
With Brian:
Satisfaction
Get Off My Cloud
Paint It, Black
Ruby Tuesday
Post Brian:
Honky Tonk Women
Brown Sugar
Angie
Miss You
If you expand the list to Top 10 US singles, then they had 12 after Brian, and 11 with Brian.
So, pretty evenly divided, all things considered.
HTW was their last number one hit the UK
You're American you don't really count , this is an English band
Just kidding BTW
[www.onlineweb.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 22:10 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: June 30, 2017 22:12
When Dylan mines that deep well of Americana (blues, folk, especially), he's doing it as an American. He grew up in the heartland, his feet kicked up that same dust. It's in his genetic code, if you will.
Whereas Mick and Keith have adopted a 'borrowed' musical culture, from another land.
I wonder if that's weird?
Does it make Bob more 'authentic' and the Glimmers seem a bit more like interlopers?
Also, how 'English' ARE The Rolling Stones, from a musical perspective? I've always thought of Between the Buttons as their most British album--seems to represent a direct through-line to what I understand as the music hall tradition in England. What are the band's other most English songs? (Not in terms of lyrics or slang, but more in terms of the folk tradition of popular music in the British Isles?)
Finally, to tie things back into this thread, is it fair to say that Mick is more 'English' as a musician than Keith? Things like "Long Black Veil" and "Handsome Molly" are obvious, but I hear 'Englishness' in stuff like "Party Doll," "Brand New Set of Rules," "Angel in My Heart," "Don't Tear Me Up," and "Primitive Cool."
Are their comparable examples in Keith's solo oeuvre, or are his songs more exclusively grounded in American blues and folk?
Whereas Mick and Keith have adopted a 'borrowed' musical culture, from another land.
I wonder if that's weird?
Does it make Bob more 'authentic' and the Glimmers seem a bit more like interlopers?
Also, how 'English' ARE The Rolling Stones, from a musical perspective? I've always thought of Between the Buttons as their most British album--seems to represent a direct through-line to what I understand as the music hall tradition in England. What are the band's other most English songs? (Not in terms of lyrics or slang, but more in terms of the folk tradition of popular music in the British Isles?)
Finally, to tie things back into this thread, is it fair to say that Mick is more 'English' as a musician than Keith? Things like "Long Black Veil" and "Handsome Molly" are obvious, but I hear 'Englishness' in stuff like "Party Doll," "Brand New Set of Rules," "Angel in My Heart," "Don't Tear Me Up," and "Primitive Cool."
Are their comparable examples in Keith's solo oeuvre, or are his songs more exclusively grounded in American blues and folk?
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 22:31
Quote
LongBeachArena72
When Dylan mines that deep well of Americana (blues, folk, especially), he's doing it as an American. He grew up in the heartland, his feet kicked up that same dust. It's in his genetic code, if you will.
Whereas Mick and Keith have adopted a 'borrowed' musical culture, from another land.
I wonder if that's weird?
Does it make Bob more 'authentic' and the Glimmers seem a bit more like interlopers?
Also, how 'English' ARE The Rolling Stones, from a musical perspective? I've always thought of Between the Buttons as their most British album--seems to represent a direct through-line to what I understand as the music hall tradition in England. What are the band's other most English songs? (Not in terms of lyrics or slang, but more in terms of the folk tradition of popular music in the British Isles?)
Finally, to tie things back into this thread, is it fair to say that Mick is more 'English' as a musician than Keith? Things like "Long Black Veil" and "Handsome Molly" are obvious, but I hear 'Englishness' in stuff like "Party Doll," "Brand New Set of Rules," "Angel in My Heart," "Don't Tear Me Up," and "Primitive Cool."
Are their comparable examples in Keith's solo oeuvre, or are his songs more exclusively grounded in American blues and folk?
Too true LB, there are a lot of irritating Americanisms in the way Mick sings certain songs. Its completely phony and fake. It sounds uncomfortable from a British perspective, i don't know how it sounds to you, be honest Micks not fooling anyone, it doesn't sound authentic in the least.
I would say Keith is definitely an adopted American, he lives there, he loves it and they love him. Keith has said himself when he comes back to London its unrecognizable from when he was younger in many ways. London is beyond recognition when i go there, he has a point.
Mick, well Micks many things to many people, i doubt he has any allegiance to England although he does spend a lot of time here now.
The Stones are nomads aren't they, Keith's like a Pirate, he lives like that he plays like that.
Obviously most of their influences are from America and American music, as was so many 60's bands, The Kinks, The Animals, Led Zepp Pink Floyd, we all owe a lot to American music for sure.
Party Doll ?? That to me sounds like Mick is doing a strong American Southern drawl accent. really irritating imho, i'm surprised that sounds English to you,
Have you had a hearing test lately sir.
Just played it, Party Doll, i see what you mean, its very folk isn't it.
I actually love it, why did i think it was shit
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 22:46 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 1, 2017 02:01
Jigsaw is one of the sacred beasts of Beggars ... no way could it be taken away
It nails the door shut on that first side ... The slow build of the whole thing...
Keith's slide ...mesmerizing while at the same time slicing knife like thru to the back bone ...
Sure Micks peeking out an English window while his head's full of Guthrie like observation being forced thru a tube of Dylan hip-talk ...
but those images slowly tumble tagether like a stock car pile-up.. Orson Wells style ...
The latter something Mick would use again while venturing into the darker Memo From Turner back alleys .... Touch Of Evil now sped up ...
Always love the Jigsaw takes ... Keith and Nicky slowly tryin' ta glue tagether that menacing build ...can never get it loud enough ...
ROCKMAN
It nails the door shut on that first side ... The slow build of the whole thing...
Keith's slide ...mesmerizing while at the same time slicing knife like thru to the back bone ...
Sure Micks peeking out an English window while his head's full of Guthrie like observation being forced thru a tube of Dylan hip-talk ...
but those images slowly tumble tagether like a stock car pile-up.. Orson Wells style ...
The latter something Mick would use again while venturing into the darker Memo From Turner back alleys .... Touch Of Evil now sped up ...
Always love the Jigsaw takes ... Keith and Nicky slowly tryin' ta glue tagether that menacing build ...can never get it loud enough ...
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rocky Dijon
()
Date: July 1, 2017 02:10
Perfectly summed up there, Terry.
As for Mick's "Americanisms" on the country songs, which I generally like, usually I think he ends up sounding like an Australian trying to sound like someone from the American South.
As for Mick's "Americanisms" on the country songs, which I generally like, usually I think he ends up sounding like an Australian trying to sound like someone from the American South.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 1, 2017 02:13
..... Yeah well Eva has the Australian connection ... and we got Brown Sugar from the out-back
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: July 1, 2017 05:05
My impression is that for Dylan it's pretty much all about the music.
With the Stones, especially the past 30 years, the music is a means to an end -- which is being the Stones and being famous and making big money and everything that comes with that.
With the Stones, especially the past 30 years, the music is a means to an end -- which is being the Stones and being famous and making big money and everything that comes with that.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: July 1, 2017 05:35
Quote
Hairball
But reading back through this thread, I had previously mentioned that Jigsaw was a precursor to Memo for Turner. It was late last night as I was rambling on and "sparring" with Dandelion, but with a clear head today I have to say that comment is probably closer to truth than I originally thought. Seeing as Memo was recorded just months after the end of the Beggars sessions, it seems clear that Mick picked up from where his Jigsaw left off. In other words, Jigsaw is like a blueprint for what was to come...it laid some groundwork. Mick needed to write and record a new tune for Performance, so he naturally chose one of the only two songs he'd ever written entirely on his own, that being Jigsaw recorded just a few months earlier. It's an obvious natural progression and evolution, and while there may be hints of previous stuff from Buttons in Jigsaw, the connection to Memo is far more pronounced imo. For me, Memo is the superior, smarter, and more mature cousin to Jigsaw - both lyrically and musically, and to take it a step further it's the only solo Jagger tune that really matters IMO.
Had never really considered a connection between "Jigsaw Puzzle" and "Memo from Turner" ... but I think what you suggest above is plausible. There is a similarity between the two and the timeline makes sense.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: July 1, 2017 05:39
Quote
wonderboy
My impression is that for Dylan it's pretty much all about the music.
With the Stones, especially the past 30 years, the music is a means to an end -- which is being the Stones and being famous and making big money and everything that comes with that.
That reads kinda cold, did you mean it like that?
They have enough money. YES of course they have the distinction of being a top ticket- because it's a top/A grade show.
I was thinking about how much I paid for a Paul McCartney ticket/ arena/ 2016
Same pricing as RS, and Paul McCartney show is a top/ A grade too, Beatles, etc.
My point, to keep going, it has to turn them on still. And the greet/ roar/ energy from the fans I would like to think feeds them. If that's what you mean by fame, because every other aspect of it sucks.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: July 1, 2017 05:48
Quote
stone4everQuote
LongBeachArena72
When Dylan mines that deep well of Americana (blues, folk, especially), he's doing it as an American. He grew up in the heartland, his feet kicked up that same dust. It's in his genetic code, if you will.
Whereas Mick and Keith have adopted a 'borrowed' musical culture, from another land.
I wonder if that's weird?
Does it make Bob more 'authentic' and the Glimmers seem a bit more like interlopers?
Also, how 'English' ARE The Rolling Stones, from a musical perspective? I've always thought of Between the Buttons as their most British album--seems to represent a direct through-line to what I understand as the music hall tradition in England. What are the band's other most English songs? (Not in terms of lyrics or slang, but more in terms of the folk tradition of popular music in the British Isles?)
Finally, to tie things back into this thread, is it fair to say that Mick is more 'English' as a musician than Keith? Things like "Long Black Veil" and "Handsome Molly" are obvious, but I hear 'Englishness' in stuff like "Party Doll," "Brand New Set of Rules," "Angel in My Heart," "Don't Tear Me Up," and "Primitive Cool."
Are their comparable examples in Keith's solo oeuvre, or are his songs more exclusively grounded in American blues and folk?
Too true LB, there are a lot of irritating Americanisms in the way Mick sings certain songs. Its completely phony and fake. It sounds uncomfortable from a British perspective, i don't know how it sounds to you, be honest Micks not fooling anyone, it doesn't sound authentic in the least.
I would say Keith is definitely an adopted American, he lives there, he loves it and they love him. Keith has said himself when he comes back to London its unrecognizable from when he was younger in many ways. London is beyond recognition when i go there, he has a point.
Mick, well Micks many things to many people, i doubt he has any allegiance to England although he does spend a lot of time here now.
The Stones are nomads aren't they, Keith's like a Pirate, he lives like that he plays like that.
Obviously most of their influences are from America and American music, as was so many 60's bands, The Kinks, The Animals, Led Zepp Pink Floyd, we all owe a lot to American music for sure.
Party Doll ?? That to me sounds like Mick is doing a strong American Southern drawl accent. really irritating imho, i'm surprised that sounds English to you,
Have you had a hearing test lately sir.
Just played it, Party Doll, i see what you mean, its very folk isn't it.
I actually love it, why did i think it was shit
I didn't express myself clearly enough. I wasn't trying to cast judgment on the authenticity of Mick's 'Americanisms.' I wondered about two things:
1) Is there a difference between mining musical territory that is from your home (Dylan) or from another land (Mick and Keith)? Is music just music and it doesn't matter where you're from ... or is there some 'advantage,' musically speaking, some additional credibility/authenticity if you come from the place you're exploring?
2) Is Mick more 'English,' musically speaking, than Keith? Does he come more out of the English folk and/or music hall tradition than Keith?
By way of comparison, I was listening to the 4th Zeppelin album tonight and more than half those songs are steeped in the English folk tradition. (This from a band who stands accused of ripping off black American musicians.) Zepp, while certainly of course a worldwide phenomenon, never lost that essential Englishness, in my opinion, while The Stones were truly, as riffie suggests, more like musical nomads.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: July 1, 2017 05:55
Quote
35loveQuote
wonderboy
My impression is that for Dylan it's pretty much all about the music.
With the Stones, especially the past 30 years, the music is a means to an end -- which is being the Stones and being famous and making big money and everything that comes with that.
That reads kinda cold, did you mean it like that?
They have enough money. YES of course they have the distinction of being a top ticket- because it's a top/A grade show.
I was thinking about how much I paid for a Paul McCartney ticket/ arena/ 2016
Same pricing as RS, and Paul McCartney show is a top/ A grade too, Beatles, etc.
My point, to keep going, it has to turn them on still. And the greet/ roar/ energy from the fans I would like to think feeds them. If that's what you mean by fame, because every other aspect of it sucks.
Yes, that's exactly the question, 35L. You go on to list audience-related things that might 'turn them on.' I'm sure those things do turn one on; how could they not? Gotta be intoxicating and hard to replace ...
What interests me more is: does playing those songs still turn them on? They've played the same set for 30 years or so ... do they look at each show as an opportunity, musically speaking, to explore, get better, try different approaches, in order to keep the material fresh and their creative juices flowing?
I would maintain that the answer to that question is: no. That what sustains and drives them are, as you suggest, the adulation of the crowd, and as wonderboy says, the $$$.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: July 1, 2017 15:20
Quote
Rockman
Jigsaw is one of the sacred beasts of Beggars ... no way could it be taken away
It nails the door shut on that first side ... The slow build of the whole thing...
Keith's slide ...mesmerizing while at the same time slicing knife like thru to the back bone ...
Sure Micks peeking out an English window while his head's full of Guthrie like observation being forced thru a tube of Dylan hip-talk ...
but those images slowly tumble tagether like a stock car pile-up.. Orson Wells style ...
The latter something Mick would use again while venturing into the darker Memo From Turner back alleys .... Touch Of Evil now sped up ...
Always love the Jigsaw takes ... Keith and Nicky slowly tryin' ta glue tagether that menacing build ...can never get it loud enough ...
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
wonderboy
()
Date: July 1, 2017 18:56
Quote
35love
That reads kinda cold, did you mean it like that?
They have enough money. YES of course they have the distinction of being a top ticket- because it's a top/A grade show.
I was thinking about how much I paid for a Paul McCartney ticket/ arena/ 2016
Same pricing as RS, and Paul McCartney show is a top/ A grade too, Beatles, etc.
My point, to keep going, it has to turn them on still. And the greet/ roar/ energy from the fans I would like to think feeds them. If that's what you mean by fame, because every other aspect of it sucks.
Didn't mean it to be cold or dismissive. Just realistic.
Here's a way to look at it.
Dylan has very low overhead. He doesn't have a lot of musicians and people to support. He can afford to play small places and really doesn't need to sell many records. He couldn't fill large places, but bear with me on this. He is like a mom and pop business. He deliberately walked away from being the 'voice of his generation' probably for self-preservation, but also because he can do what he wants, doesn't have to live up to anything for the public.
By contrast, the Stones are a huge machine. Four members who must be paid. Lots of extra musicians who have to be paid. Guitar techs and personal assistants. Houses in many continents. Lots of children to support. Ex-wives and women to support. They are generous in ways we don't know, are probably sending checks to all kinds of people.
So they have to earn big money. If they wanted to tour small clubs it would cost them.
Plus that 'world's great rock and roll band' has become a millstone around their necks. They have to be 'the Stones, man', at all times. Mick tried to get away from that in his solo career, but didn't sell enough to break free (if that is what he wanted, and I suspect he did.) Keith's solo career is just a side project that probably costs more than it earns, but, like Mick, he made the decision back in the late '80s to keep the band together and monetize the brand.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: July 1, 2017 19:22
Yes and no. Of course he was a pro; a road warrior, socialite, budding film star - the package. Probably had every right to be about as self confident as an person on the planet.Quote
liddasQuote
Swayed1967Quote
liddas
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
C
In 1968 Jagger was a novice at writing songs completely on his own. I don't think that's even debatable anymore. But don't take my word for it - he himself clearly states earlier in this thread (courtesy of Rockman) that Jigsaw Puzzle was the second song he ever wrote from scratch.
Yeah, he wrote some brilliant lyrics (Satisfaction, 19th Nervous Breakdown etc. etc.) and no doubt his phrasing elevated some of the earlier songs to greatness. I'll even go so far as to agree with those who say he must have contributed musically as well to certain songs. But the fact is, the shocking fact I should say, is that he didn't (or wasn't able to) write a song completely on his own until he came up with the very mediocre 'Yesterday's paper.' Jigsaw Puzzle is miles better than YP but he's still clearly finding his legs (being unable to lean on Keith). That would soon change of course but compared with what followed Jigsaw Puzzle is fairly weak (still good in its way of course) - I don't really understand how anyone could disagree with that...
Completely disagree!
The full picture is quite different.
By the time Beggars was released Mick had been a pro musician for what? 5 full years?
And 5 years that are worth 10 by modern standards: during that time the stones had released almost 130 songs in a highly competitive singles market! (and god knows how many more were recorded or tried out).
We know that in 1968 Mick could play confidently the guitar and piano (at least good enough to "compose" a pop song by himself). I don't think he woke up one day and found out that it came to him by osmosis hanging around keith for years, so it must have been at least 2/3 years he was practicing and playing by himself. Paper, Puzzle, Devil and Sugar just don't come out of the blue.
The concept of writing a song alone was quite different in 1968 as opposed to the 80's and following. Devil and Sugar were very rough demos when they arrived in the studio. Later on, Jagger would arrive with the almost finished product, using either session men or - later - computers. So let's not overestimate those early efforts. Still lots of input was needed from the rest of the band.
You may like Yesterday's papers or not (I do, a lot, for what matters) but you can't say that its "intrinsic" artistic value (bla) is not in line with the other tracks of the album.
Same can be said Jigsaw Puzzle (for the sake of argument - I still find it impossible that one cannot see how majestic this song is): like it or not, the other tracks on the album (save devil and street) are just as good (or bad)
C
Still - I Know that there is a huge difference between introducing a song to the band, when it is you with one or two partners. You come as kind of a team, and you feel kind of sure about what you got, because the kinks have already been tackled.
Coming out alone, with a guitar, and saying "this is what I have", is hard always. I suspect it would have been especially hard for him to play it to Keith.
But I don't really know if this had not happened earlier. Or of these were the first songs he brought out alone.
That said I think this would be an incredible title, or headline for a book or essay on Jagger. "Paper, Puzzle, Devil & Sugar".
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 3, 2017 15:07
Quote
Doxa
It is a great track in a great album.
- Doxa
An understatement. Let's readjust it: "Jig-Saw Puzzle" is a wonderful track in a brilliant album.
- Doxa
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 3, 2017 15:40
Quote
DoxaQuote
Doxa
It is a great track in a great album.
- Doxa
An understatement. Let's readjust it: "Jig-Saw Puzzle" is a wonderful track in a brilliant album.
- Doxa
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