Tell Me :
Talk
Just for the sake of clarity: for me the indispensable versions of "Turner" are the soundtrack and the Winwood demo; the Metamorphosis Stones version doesn't hold a candle to them; in fact the song comes off clipped and rushed.
The lineup for the soundtrack version is correct, I believe.
The lineup for the Metamorphosis version could be correct (excluding the misspelling of Jim Capaldi's name).
Here's the Winwood/Capaldi/Jagger version (the one I was calling a 'demo' in my post):
[www.youtube.com]
If Seven Days are pedestrian, Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Or Pulp Fiction to Snakes On A Plain
Yes his whole personality seemed to change over the years.
He doesn't strike me as an over romantic person but his lyrics suggest otherwise.
Bill said he was a nice bunch of guys, that's what makes him fascinating, we don't really know who he really is after all these years, maybe Mick himself doesn't know who he is.
Yeah, to me the official soundtrack version is the only true version of the song. The stones version released in METAMORPHOSIS is rushed-sounding demo-one indeed, and totally lifeless. Jagger doesn't seem to reach at all to the spheres, to realize all the potentia the song has, he was able to do in the released version. If I have understood right, Keith actually was contributing to the early Stones version, or at least was there formally present but doing minimal, because he hated the whole song (or its context). In Philip Norman's early Stones book I recall reading that due Richards was 'sapotaging' the recording and (thereby) the song going nowhere, Jagger was totally frustrated, and when Cammell asked how the song is doing, he burst into tears... After that Jagger got himself together, and via typical Jaggerian determination, picked up the right 'pro' musicians and did the finished film version.
Reading Keith's comments towards the whole PERFORMANCE project, I don't think the above scenario wasn't possible at all.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 12:14 by Doxa.
Well this is very telling if true, sounds like Keith started off as the control freak and only much later in their lives did the tables turn.
I didn't know that, i'm beginning to sympathize with Mick more now with the information i get from you guys.
Its like Mick hardened up over the years, probably because he needed to, keith was obviously a forse of nature who has turned into a pussy cat.
FREE MICK !!
Yeah, I think there is a good clue here. Keith's initial "Shelter" was more a kind of personal affair.. why he was feeling apocalyptic might not much to do with Vietnam's war or with the zeitgeist, but more like what he was feeling in that stormy day, more 'back at home', in his 'very life today', hating especially the scenario that has happening at the PERFORMANCE shootings. Most likely the basic lines of
"Oh, a storm is threat'ning
My very life today
If I don't get some shelter
Oh yeah, I'm gonna fade away"
might easily having coming from him (and I think there are some Keith quotes to confirm this). And then Mick picked up this theme or a feel and translated it to a more universal language, trying to capture something from the zeitgeist. Then we have the images of 'war, children, it's just a shot away', etc. Actually that isn't so far as what has happened with songs like "Wild Horses" and "Angie", Keith initially writing them more or about his feelings related to his just-born children, and then Mick translating the feel and topic to be more or less in both cases about his lost affair with Marianne Faithfull (or not).
Of course, there could have been some 'wild cards' there, as Robert Fraser, who with his cynical and wit remarks - as we saw from the quotes shown by Rockman - might have contributed to some of the key lines there, Keith reflectively channeling him.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 13:13 by Doxa.
Sounds plausible that it was conceived in that way. The lyrics have never striken me as an all Keith-job. If it had been, I think, he would have made it clear in LIFE.
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Too soft, and the band is untight. Cooder is good, though. The songwriting isn't my cup of tea. I like the Stones's rehearsals like version better, but the song isn't really exciting anymore after the first few seconds, for me.
The mix is bad as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 14:09 by DandelionPowderman.
Feels like Dandie is channeling Keith's antipathy towards the song...
If there is any adjective to describe "Memo From Turner", 'soft' wouldn't be the one to come to my mind...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 14:38 by Doxa.
Yes, he's really had a terrible 55 year career, he's basically obscure
If I were Keith, I would have thrown him out of the band some decades ago. The Stones with Keith on lead vocals would have been so much better & authentic... Plus, Keith is the only Stone who did not show any decline since their golden years...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 15:47 by retired_dog.
Pretty good observation, Doxa...
"Soft"...are we talking about Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" or what?
Mick will never be obscure with Keith by his side
Now every body say Awh
Ain't that the truth
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: July 4, 2017 08:24
Quote
Hairball
I hear you LongBeach, but something about Seven Days hit's me stronger, and after listening to the above videos I edited in a couple posts above - followed by a listen to Memo - I'd have to pick Seven Days both lyrically AND musically if I was on a desert island and could only pick one. I was 16 when Seven Days hit the airwaves vs Memo which was never on my radar until it was released well after the fact on Metamorphosis (which I didn't even own until I was probably 16 also). In that context Seven Days has more meaning for me as it was fresh and new at the time vs. the "oddball" Memo relegated to Metamorphosis. Anyhow, difficult to judge objectively when something is so close to your heart, and in this case Seven Days edges Memo out for me. Perhaps if I had never heard either song and didn't know it was Jagger vs. Dylan (erasing all of the context of each), and then compared the lyrics side by side, I might have a different opinion.
Just for the sake of clarity: for me the indispensable versions of "Turner" are the soundtrack and the Winwood demo; the Metamorphosis Stones version doesn't hold a candle to them; in fact the song comes off clipped and rushed.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 4, 2017 08:30
I don't know how accurate this info. is, but according to Keno's website (which at times is unreliable) this is what he says:
MEMO FROM TURNER
Recorded on November 17, 1968. Released in 1975 on the Metamorphosis album.
The first lineup below is the one heard on the Stones Metamorphosis album. The second lineup is from the Performance movie soundtrack, and also on the Stones album The London Years, although this second version is not a Stones song at all, but was recorded earlier as a solo Mick Jagger song and only features Mick, and has slightly different lyrics. Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.
MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper
MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman
Perhaps someone here has some more detailed and accurate info. on this.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
MEMO FROM TURNER
Recorded on November 17, 1968. Released in 1975 on the Metamorphosis album.
The first lineup below is the one heard on the Stones Metamorphosis album. The second lineup is from the Performance movie soundtrack, and also on the Stones album The London Years, although this second version is not a Stones song at all, but was recorded earlier as a solo Mick Jagger song and only features Mick, and has slightly different lyrics. Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.
MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper
MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman
Perhaps someone here has some more detailed and accurate info. on this.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 08:34
timeisonourside.com:
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Rhythm electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead electric guitar: Al Kooper
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman
Rhythm electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead electric guitar: Al Kooper
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
LongBeachArena72
()
Date: July 4, 2017 08:42
Quote
Hairball
I don't know how accurate this info. is, but according to Keno's website (which at times is unreliable) this is what he says:
MEMO FROM TURNER
Recorded on November 17, 1968. Released in 1975 on the Metamorphosis album.
The first lineup below is the one heard on the Stones Metamorphosis album. The second lineup is from the Performance movie soundtrack, and also on the Stones album The London Years, although this second version is not a Stones song at all, but was recorded earlier as a solo Mick Jagger song and only features Mick, and has slightly different lyrics. Why it ended up on a Stones album is not known. There is a question about who is playing drums on the Metamorphosis cut. One thing for sure is that Keith Richards didn't play guitar on any of the session's tracks.
MEMO FROM TURNER (Metamorphosis version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Brian Jones, Steve Winwood & Al Kooper Bass: Bill Wyman Drums: Charlie Watts (?) or Jim Capali (?) Keyboards: Al Kooper
MEMO FROM TURNER (London Years/Performance version)
(Jagger/Richards)
Lead Vocal: Mick Jagger Guitars: Ry Cooder (Slide), Russ Titelman Bass: Jerry Scheff Drums: Gene Parsons Keyboards: Randy Newman
Perhaps someone here has some more detailed and accurate info. on this.
The lineup for the soundtrack version is correct, I believe.
The lineup for the Metamorphosis version could be correct (excluding the misspelling of Jim Capaldi's name).
Here's the Winwood/Capaldi/Jagger version (the one I was calling a 'demo' in my post):
[www.youtube.com]
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:02
Quote
LongBeachArena72
It's been hypothesized that there may be an infinite number of universes (e.g., The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot, among others). If this is so--and for what it's worth, I believe it to be so--there are most likely about 7, possibly 8 of those infinite universes in which the pedestrian "Seven Days" is regarded as a greater artistic achievement than "Memo from Turner."
If Seven Days are pedestrian, Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
hopkins
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:18
Mick Jagger - Me & the Devil Blues
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:30
Excuse me but how does Mick go from writing Memo From Turner to Lets Work, and acting in Performance to Frigin Free Jack.
Where did his brain go ? was it all that tripping Acid ?
Who did he pay to write Memo From Turner for him and stay quiet lol.
If it wasn't for the fact that i'm pretty sure he wrote Sympathy For The Devil i would seriously start to ask questions.
Where did his brain go ? was it all that tripping Acid ?
Who did he pay to write Memo From Turner for him and stay quiet lol.
If it wasn't for the fact that i'm pretty sure he wrote Sympathy For The Devil i would seriously start to ask questions.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:36
Quote
stone4ever
Excuse me but how does Mick go from writing Memo From Turner to Lets Work, and acting in Performance to Frigin Free Jack.
Where did his brain go ? was it all that tripping Acid ?
Who did he pay to write Memo From Turner for him and stay quiet lol.
If it wasn't for the fact that i'm pretty sure he wrote Sympathy For The Devil i would seriously start to ask questions.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:36
Kinda like going from Raging Bull ta Ask the Fockers ....
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:39
Quote
Rockman
Kinda like going from Raging Bull ta Ask the Fockers ....
Or Pulp Fiction to Snakes On A Plain
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:49
...... or Desolation Row ta..ta..taaaa Wiggle Wiggle
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:50
guess it just happens when the rent is due ......
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 09:59
But seriously it's hard to work out what happened to Mick. He still had his gifts during Exile although lyrically not so good, but then there is this slow decline during the 70's and early 80's. But what happens after that when he went solo can only be described as a total lobotomy.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 10:10
With most of his solo albums Mick drops the Stones like image and always seems ta use a lot of romantic songs/messages aimed at possibly a number of different women ... love letters set ta music ..
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 10:55
Mick Jagger: Primitive Cool
*****
By Mikal Gilmore
September 14, 1987
With his venturesome second solo LP, Primitive Cool, Mick Jagger has finally reasserted his voice of rage and disdain — or at least he has managed to reinvoke it as much as may be possible for an artist so worldly and unsentimental.
For more than a generation, Jagger has peacocked his way across rock & roll bandstands, singing songs of violence, carnality, contempt and hubris with such a convincing leer that for many of us the singer seemed indivisible from the sentiments of his songs. But for roughly fifteen years now, Jagger has seemed increasingly to be trading hard-bitten intelligence and passion for something uncomfortably akin to bluster and bravado, making for a series of hackneyed albums and overly preening stage performances that reeked of self-parody. There was little amid the hyperbole and posturing that followed Exile on Main Street as affecting or memorable as Jagger's singing on "Fool to Cry" and "Memory Motel" — two mid-Seventies songs sung in the voice of a man losing the very dreams he could never afford to lose. It was a yearning and vulnerable style that we had never before heard from Jagger — the first voice that proved as persuasive as the sneering, fearful one that fueled his best 1960s work. And for a long time, it seemed to be a voice that we might never hear again.
Primitive Cool marks a rather surprising transfiguration — perhaps the most sweeping work of artistic self-redefinition by a major pop figure since Bob Dylan turned homey on Nashville Skyline or at least since Lou Reed revealed his lovey-dovey side on The Blue Mask. Whether one should view this turn as a sign of genuine personal change is another matter, because, truth be told, there has always been a good deal less of the real Mick Jagger in his music than many of us might care to realize. At the same time, Primitive Cool probably makes more biographical and emotional sense than anything Jagger has worked on since Some Girls — which, in retrospect, was a fairly mean-humored, self-serving effort that aimed to hit hard at all those things (mainly women and punks) that had temporarily made Jagger's world a little less manageable.
In word and spirit, Primitive Cool is about as contrary to Some Girls as you can imagine. Indeed, like Dylan's and Reed's change-of-heart milestones, Primitive Cool would appear to be the work of a man who has taken a long, tough look at the life that he has been leading and the world that he is living in and has decided to reexamine some of his values. It is tempting to believe that Jagger intends this as a heartfelt personal statement. Certainly it fits in with what we presume to know about the singer at this point: namely, that he is now something of a family man and that he no longer seems fully enamored of the Rolling Stones' raw-toned approach to life and music. But perhaps it's simply more accurate to say that in contrast to his perfunctory solo debut, She's the Boss, Primitive Cool sounds like a record Jagger had to leave the Stones to make. The melodies that he's produced by himself have more power and motion than most of what he has fashioned with Richards in over a decade, while his singing exhibits the sort of diversity and commitment that appeared to elude him shortly after Sticky Fingers.
On Primitive Cool, some of the album's most desperate-seeming lyrics are also braced by some of the most straightforwardly exultant music that Jagger has ever crafted. In "Throwaway," for example, Jeff Beck's raveup guitar lines and drummer Simon Phillips and bassist Doug Wimbish's brawny rhythmic structure set the way for a song that seems ready to paint the town red. Instead, Jagger launches into an almost begging admission of romantic need that's all the more affecting for its self-incrimination. "I've played the fool, I've played the clown/I'm an easy lover when I come to town," he sings at the outset, playing up to his popular image as an eager womanizer. Yet there's a twist here: the singer has fallen hard for a woman who, he now understands, has the strength — and maybe the will — to walk out on him. Suddenly, the idea of returning to his former sleep-around life seems like a nightmare. "If you leave me," he sings in a voice that sounds half-beguiling and half-mad, "I'll go frantic/With cheap champagne, brief affairs and backstage love . . . I gave you the best years of my life/Don't you kick me in the gutter." The man who sang "Fool to Cry" more than a decade ago returns to explore the same themes of heartache and regret — only this time he knows enough to stave off the harm.
But there's more to Primitive Cool than merely the notion of preserving the singer's romantic world. In the title track he begins to consider the world of his children and muses over what the scene might be like on that day in the not so distant future when they confront him with questions about his image and his involvement in the events of the last generation: "Did you walk cool in the sixties daddy?/Did you fight in the war?/Or did you chase all the whores on the rock and roll rumble? . . . Did you break all the laws that were ready to crumble?" Anybody who hears this litany of inquiries already knows the answer — as much as anybody, Jagger helped shape the ethics of a generation in transition — but the singer is either too cool or too savvy to boast. Instead, he simply advises his kids to explore their own times with as much passion as they can muster, which is a rather neat way of refusing to cater to all the current nostalgia for the Sixties. A few songs later, though, in the rueful "War Baby," Jagger considers the violent future that his children may well end up facing. He imagines the cacophony and the dread of that day, and for the first time since "Gimme Shelter," his vocal wavers somewhere between rage and prayer.
But don't get the idea that Jagger has turned exactly, um, softhearted. In fact, some of Primitive Cool's kickiest moments are also some of its nastiest, especially the stormy "Kow Tow" ("The wicked lay stones in my path," sings Jagger in an allusion to the band he no longer loves) and the Exile-style "Shoot Off Your Mouth," which seems to be a gender-bending kiss-off to Keith Richards ("I was a rising star/You hitched your wagon next to mine. . . . Who are you to shoot off your mouth?"). But Jagger's most affecting message to Richards, as well as the LP's loveliest song, is "Party Doll," a Pogues-style track that mixes countryish sentiment with haunting Gaelic instrumentation. "You used to love to honky-tonk," sings Jagger in a rueful twang, "But now those dancing days are over/You used to be my number one/But now you vanished in the ozone."
In a sense, it's just a love song: a farewell to the love or friendship you can neither live with nor live without. But it also turns out to be something more: a reminder of what Jagger may have sacrificed to make music this strong and resourceful. Whether this feat is worth the loss of the Rolling Stones — if that's the way things should tumble — is a hard question, and probably nobody will have to examine that possibility more closely than Jagger himself. If Primitive Cool turns out to be what it feels like — Mick Jagger's long-overdue rejuvenation — then whatever this cocky icon makes of his future should concern anybody who ever respected his past.
[www.rollingstone.com]
ROCKMAN
*****
By Mikal Gilmore
September 14, 1987
With his venturesome second solo LP, Primitive Cool, Mick Jagger has finally reasserted his voice of rage and disdain — or at least he has managed to reinvoke it as much as may be possible for an artist so worldly and unsentimental.
For more than a generation, Jagger has peacocked his way across rock & roll bandstands, singing songs of violence, carnality, contempt and hubris with such a convincing leer that for many of us the singer seemed indivisible from the sentiments of his songs. But for roughly fifteen years now, Jagger has seemed increasingly to be trading hard-bitten intelligence and passion for something uncomfortably akin to bluster and bravado, making for a series of hackneyed albums and overly preening stage performances that reeked of self-parody. There was little amid the hyperbole and posturing that followed Exile on Main Street as affecting or memorable as Jagger's singing on "Fool to Cry" and "Memory Motel" — two mid-Seventies songs sung in the voice of a man losing the very dreams he could never afford to lose. It was a yearning and vulnerable style that we had never before heard from Jagger — the first voice that proved as persuasive as the sneering, fearful one that fueled his best 1960s work. And for a long time, it seemed to be a voice that we might never hear again.
Primitive Cool marks a rather surprising transfiguration — perhaps the most sweeping work of artistic self-redefinition by a major pop figure since Bob Dylan turned homey on Nashville Skyline or at least since Lou Reed revealed his lovey-dovey side on The Blue Mask. Whether one should view this turn as a sign of genuine personal change is another matter, because, truth be told, there has always been a good deal less of the real Mick Jagger in his music than many of us might care to realize. At the same time, Primitive Cool probably makes more biographical and emotional sense than anything Jagger has worked on since Some Girls — which, in retrospect, was a fairly mean-humored, self-serving effort that aimed to hit hard at all those things (mainly women and punks) that had temporarily made Jagger's world a little less manageable.
In word and spirit, Primitive Cool is about as contrary to Some Girls as you can imagine. Indeed, like Dylan's and Reed's change-of-heart milestones, Primitive Cool would appear to be the work of a man who has taken a long, tough look at the life that he has been leading and the world that he is living in and has decided to reexamine some of his values. It is tempting to believe that Jagger intends this as a heartfelt personal statement. Certainly it fits in with what we presume to know about the singer at this point: namely, that he is now something of a family man and that he no longer seems fully enamored of the Rolling Stones' raw-toned approach to life and music. But perhaps it's simply more accurate to say that in contrast to his perfunctory solo debut, She's the Boss, Primitive Cool sounds like a record Jagger had to leave the Stones to make. The melodies that he's produced by himself have more power and motion than most of what he has fashioned with Richards in over a decade, while his singing exhibits the sort of diversity and commitment that appeared to elude him shortly after Sticky Fingers.
On Primitive Cool, some of the album's most desperate-seeming lyrics are also braced by some of the most straightforwardly exultant music that Jagger has ever crafted. In "Throwaway," for example, Jeff Beck's raveup guitar lines and drummer Simon Phillips and bassist Doug Wimbish's brawny rhythmic structure set the way for a song that seems ready to paint the town red. Instead, Jagger launches into an almost begging admission of romantic need that's all the more affecting for its self-incrimination. "I've played the fool, I've played the clown/I'm an easy lover when I come to town," he sings at the outset, playing up to his popular image as an eager womanizer. Yet there's a twist here: the singer has fallen hard for a woman who, he now understands, has the strength — and maybe the will — to walk out on him. Suddenly, the idea of returning to his former sleep-around life seems like a nightmare. "If you leave me," he sings in a voice that sounds half-beguiling and half-mad, "I'll go frantic/With cheap champagne, brief affairs and backstage love . . . I gave you the best years of my life/Don't you kick me in the gutter." The man who sang "Fool to Cry" more than a decade ago returns to explore the same themes of heartache and regret — only this time he knows enough to stave off the harm.
But there's more to Primitive Cool than merely the notion of preserving the singer's romantic world. In the title track he begins to consider the world of his children and muses over what the scene might be like on that day in the not so distant future when they confront him with questions about his image and his involvement in the events of the last generation: "Did you walk cool in the sixties daddy?/Did you fight in the war?/Or did you chase all the whores on the rock and roll rumble? . . . Did you break all the laws that were ready to crumble?" Anybody who hears this litany of inquiries already knows the answer — as much as anybody, Jagger helped shape the ethics of a generation in transition — but the singer is either too cool or too savvy to boast. Instead, he simply advises his kids to explore their own times with as much passion as they can muster, which is a rather neat way of refusing to cater to all the current nostalgia for the Sixties. A few songs later, though, in the rueful "War Baby," Jagger considers the violent future that his children may well end up facing. He imagines the cacophony and the dread of that day, and for the first time since "Gimme Shelter," his vocal wavers somewhere between rage and prayer.
But don't get the idea that Jagger has turned exactly, um, softhearted. In fact, some of Primitive Cool's kickiest moments are also some of its nastiest, especially the stormy "Kow Tow" ("The wicked lay stones in my path," sings Jagger in an allusion to the band he no longer loves) and the Exile-style "Shoot Off Your Mouth," which seems to be a gender-bending kiss-off to Keith Richards ("I was a rising star/You hitched your wagon next to mine. . . . Who are you to shoot off your mouth?"). But Jagger's most affecting message to Richards, as well as the LP's loveliest song, is "Party Doll," a Pogues-style track that mixes countryish sentiment with haunting Gaelic instrumentation. "You used to love to honky-tonk," sings Jagger in a rueful twang, "But now those dancing days are over/You used to be my number one/But now you vanished in the ozone."
In a sense, it's just a love song: a farewell to the love or friendship you can neither live with nor live without. But it also turns out to be something more: a reminder of what Jagger may have sacrificed to make music this strong and resourceful. Whether this feat is worth the loss of the Rolling Stones — if that's the way things should tumble — is a hard question, and probably nobody will have to examine that possibility more closely than Jagger himself. If Primitive Cool turns out to be what it feels like — Mick Jagger's long-overdue rejuvenation — then whatever this cocky icon makes of his future should concern anybody who ever respected his past.
[www.rollingstone.com]
ROCKMAN
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 11:24
Quote
Rockman
With most of his solo albums Mick drops the Stones like image and always seems ta use a lot of romantic songs/messages aimed at possibly a number of different women ... love letters set ta music ..
Yes his whole personality seemed to change over the years.
He doesn't strike me as an over romantic person but his lyrics suggest otherwise.
Bill said he was a nice bunch of guys, that's what makes him fascinating, we don't really know who he really is after all these years, maybe Mick himself doesn't know who he is.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 4, 2017 12:11
Quote
LongBeachArena72Quote
Hairball
I hear you LongBeach, but something about Seven Days hit's me stronger, and after listening to the above videos I edited in a couple posts above - followed by a listen to Memo - I'd have to pick Seven Days both lyrically AND musically if I was on a desert island and could only pick one. I was 16 when Seven Days hit the airwaves vs Memo which was never on my radar until it was released well after the fact on Metamorphosis (which I didn't even own until I was probably 16 also). In that context Seven Days has more meaning for me as it was fresh and new at the time vs. the "oddball" Memo relegated to Metamorphosis. Anyhow, difficult to judge objectively when something is so close to your heart, and in this case Seven Days edges Memo out for me. Perhaps if I had never heard either song and didn't know it was Jagger vs. Dylan (erasing all of the context of each), and then compared the lyrics side by side, I might have a different opinion.
Just for the sake of clarity: for me the indispensable versions of "Turner" are the soundtrack and the Winwood demo; the Metamorphosis Stones version doesn't hold a candle to them; in fact the song comes off clipped and rushed.
Yeah, to me the official soundtrack version is the only true version of the song. The stones version released in METAMORPHOSIS is rushed-sounding demo-one indeed, and totally lifeless. Jagger doesn't seem to reach at all to the spheres, to realize all the potentia the song has, he was able to do in the released version. If I have understood right, Keith actually was contributing to the early Stones version, or at least was there formally present but doing minimal, because he hated the whole song (or its context). In Philip Norman's early Stones book I recall reading that due Richards was 'sapotaging' the recording and (thereby) the song going nowhere, Jagger was totally frustrated, and when Cammell asked how the song is doing, he burst into tears... After that Jagger got himself together, and via typical Jaggerian determination, picked up the right 'pro' musicians and did the finished film version.
Reading Keith's comments towards the whole PERFORMANCE project, I don't think the above scenario wasn't possible at all.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 12:14 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 12:53
Quote
DoxaQuote
LongBeachArena72Quote
Hairball
I hear you LongBeach, but something about Seven Days hit's me stronger, and after listening to the above videos I edited in a couple posts above - followed by a listen to Memo - I'd have to pick Seven Days both lyrically AND musically if I was on a desert island and could only pick one. I was 16 when Seven Days hit the airwaves vs Memo which was never on my radar until it was released well after the fact on Metamorphosis (which I didn't even own until I was probably 16 also). In that context Seven Days has more meaning for me as it was fresh and new at the time vs. the "oddball" Memo relegated to Metamorphosis. Anyhow, difficult to judge objectively when something is so close to your heart, and in this case Seven Days edges Memo out for me. Perhaps if I had never heard either song and didn't know it was Jagger vs. Dylan (erasing all of the context of each), and then compared the lyrics side by side, I might have a different opinion.
Just for the sake of clarity: for me the indispensable versions of "Turner" are the soundtrack and the Winwood demo; the Metamorphosis Stones version doesn't hold a candle to them; in fact the song comes off clipped and rushed.
Yeah, to me the official soundtrack version is the only true version of the song. The stones version released in METAMORPHOSIS is rushed-sounding demo-one indeed, and totally lifeless. Jagger doesn't seem to reach at all to the spheres, to realize all the potentia the song has, he was able to do in the released version. If I have understood right, Keith actually was contributing to the early Stones version, or at least was there formally present but doing minimal, because he hated the whole song (or its context). In Philip Norman's early Stones book I recall reading that due Richards was 'sapotaging' the recording and (thereby) the song going nowhere, Jagger was totally frustrated, and when Cammell asked how the song is doing, he burst into tears... After that Jagger got himself together, and via typical Jaggerian determination, picked up the right 'pro' musicians and did the finished film version.
Reading Keith's comments towards the whole PERFORMANCE project, I don't think the above scenario wasn't possible at all.
- Doxa
Well this is very telling if true, sounds like Keith started off as the control freak and only much later in their lives did the tables turn.
I didn't know that, i'm beginning to sympathize with Mick more now with the information i get from you guys.
Its like Mick hardened up over the years, probably because he needed to, keith was obviously a forse of nature who has turned into a pussy cat.
FREE MICK !!
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 4, 2017 13:04
Quote
Hairball
I was always under the impression Gimme Shelter was a Keith song through and through, but was not 100% sure of the accuracy - hence my post from several days ago:Quote
Hairball
As for Keith songs written entirely on his own (and correct me if I'm wrong), I haven't seen Gimme Shelter mentioned - I mean that's the epitome of a great Stones tune right there. Other than some of Mick's greatest vocals, did Mick add anything else to the tune? I always thought it was 100% Keith music and lyrics, but maybe there's more to the story I'm unaware of?
Now that wanderingspirit66 has shedded some light on it with Mick saying he indeed wrote some of the lyrics, the mystery remains as to what he might have added lyrically.
But here's an interesting article that doesn't solve the mystery as to who wrote what, but it shows that Keith and Mick have completely different takes on the inspiration of it:
GIMME SHELTER
Meanwhile, Mick and Keith were having their own personal problems. In the soap opera of the Stones' love lives - it was the late-1960s after all - Keith had taken up with Jones' girlfriend of two years, Italian model and actress Anita Pallenberg, in 1967.
In early 1969, Pallenberg was acting with Mick in the British gangster film Performance, and the two had an affair. Some have suggested the sense of stormy menace in Gimme Shelter is directly related to Keith's feelings of betrayal. It should be pointed out that Keith has admitted that, in an act of revenge, he had sex - just once - with Mick's girlfriend, Marianne Faithfull.
__________________________________________________________________________
Mick's version:
Mick has always talked about the lyrics to Gimme Shelter as reflecting the times at the end of the 1960s. In a 1995 interview with Rolling Stone, he said, "Well, it [was] a very rough, very violent era. The Vietnam War. Violence on the screens, pillage and burning. And Vietnam was not war as we knew it in the conventional sense. The thing about Vietnam was that it wasn't like World War II, and it wasn't like Korea, and it wasn't like the Gulf War. It was a real nasty war, and people didn't like it. People objected, and people didn't want to fight it."
VS Keiths version:
Keith's take on it is more personal. He reflected on the song in Life, his 2010 memoir: "I wrote Gimme Shelter on a stormy day, sitting in Robert Fraser's apartment in Mount Street (in London's exclusive Mayfair). Anita was shooting Performance at the time, not far away.
"It was just a terrible @#$%& day and it was storming out there. I was sitting there in Mount Street and there was this incredible storm over London, so I got into that mode, just looking out of Robert's window and looking at all these people with their umbrellas being blown out of their grasp and running like hell. And the idea came to me. My thought was storms on other people's minds, not mine. It just happened to hit the moment."
Yeah, I think there is a good clue here. Keith's initial "Shelter" was more a kind of personal affair.. why he was feeling apocalyptic might not much to do with Vietnam's war or with the zeitgeist, but more like what he was feeling in that stormy day, more 'back at home', in his 'very life today', hating especially the scenario that has happening at the PERFORMANCE shootings. Most likely the basic lines of
"Oh, a storm is threat'ning
My very life today
If I don't get some shelter
Oh yeah, I'm gonna fade away"
might easily having coming from him (and I think there are some Keith quotes to confirm this). And then Mick picked up this theme or a feel and translated it to a more universal language, trying to capture something from the zeitgeist. Then we have the images of 'war, children, it's just a shot away', etc. Actually that isn't so far as what has happened with songs like "Wild Horses" and "Angie", Keith initially writing them more or about his feelings related to his just-born children, and then Mick translating the feel and topic to be more or less in both cases about his lost affair with Marianne Faithfull (or not).
Of course, there could have been some 'wild cards' there, as Robert Fraser, who with his cynical and wit remarks - as we saw from the quotes shown by Rockman - might have contributed to some of the key lines there, Keith reflectively channeling him.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 13:13 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
GetYerAngie
()
Date: July 4, 2017 13:43
Quote
DoxaQuote
Hairball
I was always under the impression Gimme Shelter was a Keith song through and through, but was not 100% sure of the accuracy - hence my post from several days ago:Quote
Hairball
As for Keith songs written entirely on his own (and correct me if I'm wrong), I haven't seen Gimme Shelter mentioned - I mean that's the epitome of a great Stones tune right there. Other than some of Mick's greatest vocals, did Mick add anything else to the tune? I always thought it was 100% Keith music and lyrics, but maybe there's more to the story I'm unaware of?
Now that wanderingspirit66 has shedded some light on it with Mick saying he indeed wrote some of the lyrics, the mystery remains as to what he might have added lyrically.
But here's an interesting article that doesn't solve the mystery as to who wrote what, but it shows that Keith and Mick have completely different takes on the inspiration of it:
GIMME SHELTER
Meanwhile, Mick and Keith were having their own personal problems. In the soap opera of the Stones' love lives - it was the late-1960s after all - Keith had taken up with Jones' girlfriend of two years, Italian model and actress Anita Pallenberg, in 1967.
In early 1969, Pallenberg was acting with Mick in the British gangster film Performance, and the two had an affair. Some have suggested the sense of stormy menace in Gimme Shelter is directly related to Keith's feelings of betrayal. It should be pointed out that Keith has admitted that, in an act of revenge, he had sex - just once - with Mick's girlfriend, Marianne Faithfull.
__________________________________________________________________________
Mick's version:
Mick has always talked about the lyrics to Gimme Shelter as reflecting the times at the end of the 1960s. In a 1995 interview with Rolling Stone, he said, "Well, it [was] a very rough, very violent era. The Vietnam War. Violence on the screens, pillage and burning. And Vietnam was not war as we knew it in the conventional sense. The thing about Vietnam was that it wasn't like World War II, and it wasn't like Korea, and it wasn't like the Gulf War. It was a real nasty war, and people didn't like it. People objected, and people didn't want to fight it."
VS Keiths version:
Keith's take on it is more personal. He reflected on the song in Life, his 2010 memoir: "I wrote Gimme Shelter on a stormy day, sitting in Robert Fraser's apartment in Mount Street (in London's exclusive Mayfair). Anita was shooting Performance at the time, not far away.
"It was just a terrible @#$%& day and it was storming out there. I was sitting there in Mount Street and there was this incredible storm over London, so I got into that mode, just looking out of Robert's window and looking at all these people with their umbrellas being blown out of their grasp and running like hell. And the idea came to me. My thought was storms on other people's minds, not mine. It just happened to hit the moment."
Yeah, I think there is a good clue here. Keith's initial "Shelter" was more a kind of personal affair.. why he was feeling apocalyptic might not much to do with Vietnam's war or with the zeitgeist, but more like what he was feeling in that stormy day, more 'back at home', in his 'very life today', hating especially the scenario that has happening at the PERFORMANCE shootings. Most likely the basic lines of
"Oh, a storm is threat'ning
My very life today
If I don't get some shelter
Oh yeah, I'm gonna fade away"
might easily having coming from him (and I think there are some Keith quotes to confirm this). And then Mick picked up this theme or a feel and translated it to a more universal language, trying to capture something from the zeitgeist. Then we have the images of 'war, children, it's just a shot away', etc. Actually that isn't so far as what has happened with songs like "Wild Horses" and "Angie", Keith initially writing them more or about his feelings related to his just-born children, and then Mick translating the feel and topic to be more or less in both cases about his lost affair with Marianne Faithfull (or not).
Of course, there could have been some 'wild cards' there, as Robert Fraser, who with his cynical and wit remarks - as we saw from the quotes shown by Rockman - might have contributed to some of the key lines there, Keith reflectively channeling him.
- Doxa
Sounds plausible that it was conceived in that way. The lyrics have never striken me as an all Keith-job. If it had been, I think, he would have made it clear in LIFE.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
TheflyingDutchman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 13:46
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Toru A
()
Date: July 4, 2017 14:02
I've downloaded She's the Boss and Primitive Cool in FLAC format (44.1kHz/24bit). The sound is punched up.
I'm satisfied with the stunning performance of Michael Shrieve, Eddie Martinez and Fonzi Thornton.
I can feel a renewed sense of shock.
I'm satisfied with the stunning performance of Michael Shrieve, Eddie Martinez and Fonzi Thornton.
I can feel a renewed sense of shock.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: July 4, 2017 14:08
Quote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowderman
Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Too soft, and the band is untight. Cooder is good, though. The songwriting isn't my cup of tea. I like the Stones's rehearsals like version better, but the song isn't really exciting anymore after the first few seconds, for me.
The mix is bad as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 14:09 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
GetYerAngie
()
Date: July 4, 2017 14:13
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowderman
Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Too soft, and the band is untight. Cooder is good, though. The songwriting isn't my cup of tea. I like the Stones's rehearsals like version better, but the song isn't really exciting anymore after the first few seconds, for me.
The mix is bad as well.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 4, 2017 14:38
Quote
GetYerAngieQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowderman
Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Too soft, and the band is untight. Cooder is good, though. The songwriting isn't my cup of tea. I like the Stones's rehearsals like version better, but the song isn't really exciting anymore after the first few seconds, for me.
The mix is bad as well.
Feels like Dandie is channeling Keith's antipathy towards the song...
If there is any adjective to describe "Memo From Turner", 'soft' wouldn't be the one to come to my mind...
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 14:38 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: July 4, 2017 15:40
Quote
stone4ever
But seriously it's hard to work out what happened to Mick. He still had his gifts during Exile although lyrically not so good, but then there is this slow decline during the 70's and early 80's. But what happens after that when he went solo can only be described as a total lobotomy.
Yes, he's really had a terrible 55 year career, he's basically obscure
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: July 4, 2017 15:45
Quote
35loveQuote
stone4ever
But seriously it's hard to work out what happened to Mick. He still had his gifts during Exile although lyrically not so good, but then there is this slow decline during the 70's and early 80's. But what happens after that when he went solo can only be described as a total lobotomy.
Yes, he's really had a terrible 55 year career, he's basically obscure
If I were Keith, I would have thrown him out of the band some decades ago. The Stones with Keith on lead vocals would have been so much better & authentic... Plus, Keith is the only Stone who did not show any decline since their golden years...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-07-04 15:47 by retired_dog.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: July 4, 2017 15:49
Quote
DoxaQuote
GetYerAngieQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
TheflyingDutchmanQuote
DandelionPowderman
Memo From Turner is full stop.
A cool intro, then it goes nowhere, imo. The bridge... well, I won't go there
Really? I always found the MFT version with Ry Cooder on slide about the best songs that came out of Jagger's mouth. Excellent drums, guitar, bass and vocals.
Too soft, and the band is untight. Cooder is good, though. The songwriting isn't my cup of tea. I like the Stones's rehearsals like version better, but the song isn't really exciting anymore after the first few seconds, for me.
The mix is bad as well.
Feels like Dandie is channeling Keith's antipathy towards the song...
If there is any adjective to describe "Memo From Turner", 'soft' wouldn't be the one to come to my mind...
- Doxa
Pretty good observation, Doxa...
"Soft"...are we talking about Chicago's "If You Leave Me Now" or what?
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: July 4, 2017 15:59
Quote
35loveQuote
stone4ever
But seriously it's hard to work out what happened to Mick. He still had his gifts during Exile although lyrically not so good, but then there is this slow decline during the 70's and early 80's. But what happens after that when he went solo can only be described as a total lobotomy.
Yes, he's really had a terrible 55 year career, he's basically obscure
Mick will never be obscure with Keith by his side
Now every body say Awh
Ain't that the truth
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