Tell Me :
Talk
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Musically, it is indeed a surprising mature track for the Stones.
And you prove my point with the other examples
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 11:53 by DandelionPowderman.
Please don't jump out of your chair, but I respectfully disagree. I originally stated it's my least favorite tune on Beggars- that it's lyrically and musically clunky . Within the context of the album, it sticks out like a sore thumb imo. In comparison to every other original track on BB, it doesn't really fit in to the "puzzle" of the album as a whole. Keiths guitar playing is interesting on it, but nothing really memorable. In certain ways, Jigsaw is like a precursor to Memo From Turner, very similar imo, but that latter tune was more fully realized...or mature. Not every Stones song on their best albums deserve to be worshipped. I remember getting flak for saying Ventilator Blues was filler on Exile! Jump out of you chair over that comment!
Sorry, what was your point?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:04 by Hairball.
That it is difficult to discuss individual taste
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:07 by DandelionPowderman.
Off my favourite Stones album? That's hard, man..
Well, it might be Dear Doctor (but it hurts me to say)...
OK - confession time is over, you're off the hook...
...now hang your head in shame and walk the plank. 
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
I am not sure whether I add or subtract to your confusion, when I say that I agree with you that JigSaw Puzzle is indeed a great song, one of the best on Beggar's Banquet (lyrics, melody, guitar, drums, bass, everything about it is perfection), but at the same time have to state that I find Street Fighting Man the weakest song on that album.
I have never really liked that song, too much I/IV slamming, and live it's even worse.
ARGH!!! *CRASH* (I just threw my chair through the window)
Ahhh shit don't say that -those are fighting words...
...street fighting words to be precise!!!
SFM is a top 10 Stones tune for me (studio version)- from the second the guitar starts cranking through,
and then Charlie's banging on the drums...and Mick yelping out "my name is called disturbance", etc., etc., etc., ..chills.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
I think it's Keith.
Indeed it is.
I agree that taste is hard to discuss and that's why I am not so keen on discussing so much about it. But it's pretty hard...
But about "Jig-Saw Puzzle", I think some over-reactions over its 'novicy' here haha... When Swayed1967 wrote that it is "clearly the creation of an overreaching novice" and "yet the potential is obvious", it captured something I have lawys felt about the song. To me it sounds the song tries a bit too hard, like there is a clear aim, but not quite the means to reach that yet; the substance doesn't quite meet the purpose yet. So musically - and lyrically - those kinds of short-comings are typical to eager novicy, not quite controlling the whole outcome yet - unlike Jagger would do in "Sympathy FOr The Devil" and "Memo From Turner". That's why I feel some sort of 'artificiality' in its whole setting. It could be actually Jagger's most Dylanisque effort ever - the music playing clearly a second fiddle to lyrics, something Dylan does naturally, but Mick not - whose lyricism is more married to the musical component by nature. It could be that before when Keith was taking care of the musical compotent and MIck concentrating on lyrics, those two components were naturally more in a balance. So to me "Jig-Saw Puzzle" sounds like Mick is not yet quite able to keep the dynamics of musical and lyrical component in a 'right' balance.
But that's my impression considering the song purely from a song writing angle.
Namely, despite those brief shortcomings in song-writing department, "Jig-Saw Puzzle" is a quintessential BEGGARS BANQUET number; it fits damn well to the atmosphere of the album, being one of its key numbers I think - they sound so focused, inspired and determinate and are already reaching the stage they just couldn't do wrong - there is a certain maturity and self-determination in everything they do here (and in the whole album), no hostages taken. The way they build up the tension, by a clever and adventurous use of instruments, is just so 'Beggaresque'. Mick himself is masterful using the third Big Dylanisque Component - the voice - to get the message through. I would even say that the 'artificiality' is a charming component in the song - it states how serious and ambitious they are, and not being afraid of taking riskies in song-writing boundaries. They were going somewhere. It is a great track in a great album. but not every track is "Sympathy For The DEvil" or "Street Fighting Man"...
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 14:43 by Doxa.
Don't worry about people not being able to relate to that Hairball, its called denial, the Jagger campers would rather jump out of their chairs than admit that Crosseyed Heart is the best album since Tattoo You.
I'd go further, its the best album since Exile and arguably as good in some respects. It pisses all over Black And Blue except for three songs, Memory Motel, Hand Of Fate and Crazy Mama. Its better than Emotional Rescue for sure.
It has more consistancty than Goats Head Soup and IORR.
Ok guys jump out of your chairs
Ah. Well, in that case, I like Keith's bass. Oh dear, I can see where this is going...
It's Mick !!
Mick does everything, he doesn't need the Stones, he wrote all the melody's all the Lyrics, Riffs, guitar parts , the lot. This is a Mick thread so there.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 14:13 by stone4ever.
I just want to point out that when I was discussing of its artificality or novicy, I had only the 'bare' song, something Jagger has done by himself, in mind, and not the final recording in the album. What you describe here by maturity I could't agree more.
- Doxa
Do you hear Brian adding colour to those other songs? I think the aswer lies there..
Who's Been Sleeping Here was what I was referring to on Buttons. That might have been the first Dylan-esque tune they wrote.
One of teh great themes in the past here in IORR has been discussing and critizising the supposed huge gap between BEGGARS BANQUET and the previous, more poppish and psychedelic era albums BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and especially THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES, as is traditionally emphasizied in rock journalism. Surely there is a gap and BEGGARS has this 'back to the roots' basic feel in it, but at the same time thereare still so many things from their previous musical experiments which are still continued in BEGGARS. They were still a pretty experimental band by nature, and, like The Beatles, basically a studio band, making new, exciting-sounding recordings and albums being the main purpose of their whole existence. Some experiments were different by nature - for example, what Keth did with his Philips cassette recorder in "Street Fighting Man" and "Jumpin' Jack Flash", or the ackward decision to use a samba in rock and roll song - not to forget all those more 'typical' Brian or Brian-type 'colourings' in some songs, like here discussed in "Jig-Saw Puzzle", or the tamboura in "Street Fighting Man". I think a big charm of BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED as well (they aren't that different) is the typical 60's like brave experimentalism married with a simple back-to-the-roots rhythm and blues. IN STICKY FINGERS, by contrast, most of it is compansated or substituted by a professional sounding, genre-perfect modern rock band sound, cultivated by playing live again. A clear symptom of from STICKY FINGERS on the difference between studio and live versions of the songs aren't that big as is with BEGGARS/BLEED material - that mostly needed to be re-arranged to fit to a modern rock show.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 15:19 by Doxa.
Fair enough, the mellotron in the background nice, but it's not the first thing I think of when I think of the song.
The same band that did Jump Jacking Flash!
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
liddas
()
Date: June 30, 2017 11:18
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 11:29
Quote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 11:37
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 11:39
Quote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
Musically, it is indeed a surprising mature track for the Stones.
And you prove my point with the other examples
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 11:53 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:02
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
Musically, it is indeed a surprising mature track for the Stones.
Please don't jump out of your chair, but I respectfully disagree. I originally stated it's my least favorite tune on Beggars- that it's lyrically and musically clunky . Within the context of the album, it sticks out like a sore thumb imo. In comparison to every other original track on BB, it doesn't really fit in to the "puzzle" of the album as a whole. Keiths guitar playing is interesting on it, but nothing really memorable. In certain ways, Jigsaw is like a precursor to Memo From Turner, very similar imo, but that latter tune was more fully realized...or mature. Not every Stones song on their best albums deserve to be worshipped. I remember getting flak for saying Ventilator Blues was filler on Exile! Jump out of you chair over that comment!
Quote
DandelionPowderman
And you prove my point with the other examples
Sorry, what was your point?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:04 by Hairball.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:06
Well, we clearly hear things differently. While most of BB is blues/country-oriented, JSP is obviously drawn from a different musical inspirational source. For you, that means a sore thumb – for me, that is exciting.
They were young back then, and making a track like that was more like finishing off what they started with Buttons than starting off on what was to become the bluesy Memo From Turner, imo.
And you didn't mention Brian's fantastic mellotron-work (which makes the song for me).
I have landed now, and drew a breath – I'm good
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:08 by DandelionPowderman.
They were young back then, and making a track like that was more like finishing off what they started with Buttons than starting off on what was to become the bluesy Memo From Turner, imo.
And you didn't mention Brian's fantastic mellotron-work (which makes the song for me).
I have landed now, and drew a breath – I'm good
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:08 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:07
Quote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
Musically, it is indeed a surprising mature track for the Stones.
Please don't jump out of your chair, but I respectfully disagree. I originally stated it's my least favorite tune on Beggars- that it's lyrically and musically clunky . Within the context of the album, it sticks out like a sore thumb imo. In comparison to every other original track on BB, it doesn't really fit in to the "puzzle" of the album as a whole. Keiths guitar playing is interesting on it, but nothing really memorable. In certain ways, Jigsaw is like a precursor to Memo From Turner, very similar imo, but that latter tune was more fully realized...or mature. Not every Stones song on their best albums deserve to be worshipped. I remember getting flak for saying Ventilator Blues was filler on Exile! Jump out of you chair over that comment!Quote
DandelionPowderman
And you prove my point with the other examples
Sorry, what was your point?
That it is difficult to discuss individual taste
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 12:07 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:12
OK it's all good......but out of curiosity, if you HAD to pick a least favorite tune off of Beggars, which would you choose?
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
...but out of curiosity, if you HAD to pick a least favorite tune off of Beggars, which would you choose?_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:13
Quote
Hairball
OK it's all good...
Off my favourite Stones album? That's hard, man..
Well, it might be Dear Doctor (but it hurts me to say)...
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:16
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
Hairball
OK it's all good...
Off my favourite Stones album? That's hard, man..
Well, it might be Dear Doctor (but it hurts me to say)...
OK - confession time is over, you're off the hook...
...now hang your head in shame and walk the plank. _____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:28
Quote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I am not sure whether I add or subtract to your confusion, when I say that I agree with you that JigSaw Puzzle is indeed a great song, one of the best on Beggar's Banquet (lyrics, melody, guitar, drums, bass, everything about it is perfection), but at the same time have to state that I find Street Fighting Man the weakest song on that album.
I have never really liked that song, too much I/IV slamming, and live it's even worse.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:30
Quote
Hairball
[...]
I remember getting flak for saying Ventilator Blues was filler on Exile! Jump out of you chair over that comment!
[...]
ARGH!!! *CRASH* (I just threw my chair through the window)
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Hairball
()
Date: June 30, 2017 12:40
Quote
matxilQuote
Hairball
[...]
I remember getting flak for saying Ventilator Blues was filler on Exile! Jump out of you chair over that comment!
[...]
ARGH!!! *CRASH* (I just threw my chair through the window)
Quote
matxil
I find Street Fighting Man the weakest song on that album
Ahhh shit don't say that -those are fighting words...
...street fighting words to be precise!!!SFM is a top 10 Stones tune for me (studio version)- from the second the guitar starts cranking through,
and then Charlie's banging on the drums...and Mick yelping out "my name is called disturbance", etc., etc., etc., ..chills.
_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 13:05
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
z
()
Date: June 30, 2017 13:36
Quote
matxil
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
I think it's Keith.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 13:53
Quote
zQuote
matxil
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
I think it's Keith.
Indeed it is.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 30, 2017 13:53
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
I agree that taste is hard to discuss and that's why I am not so keen on discussing so much about it. But it's pretty hard...
But about "Jig-Saw Puzzle", I think some over-reactions over its 'novicy' here haha... When Swayed1967 wrote that it is "clearly the creation of an overreaching novice" and "yet the potential is obvious", it captured something I have lawys felt about the song. To me it sounds the song tries a bit too hard, like there is a clear aim, but not quite the means to reach that yet; the substance doesn't quite meet the purpose yet. So musically - and lyrically - those kinds of short-comings are typical to eager novicy, not quite controlling the whole outcome yet - unlike Jagger would do in "Sympathy FOr The Devil" and "Memo From Turner". That's why I feel some sort of 'artificiality' in its whole setting. It could be actually Jagger's most Dylanisque effort ever - the music playing clearly a second fiddle to lyrics, something Dylan does naturally, but Mick not - whose lyricism is more married to the musical component by nature. It could be that before when Keith was taking care of the musical compotent and MIck concentrating on lyrics, those two components were naturally more in a balance. So to me "Jig-Saw Puzzle" sounds like Mick is not yet quite able to keep the dynamics of musical and lyrical component in a 'right' balance.
But that's my impression considering the song purely from a song writing angle.
Namely, despite those brief shortcomings in song-writing department, "Jig-Saw Puzzle" is a quintessential BEGGARS BANQUET number; it fits damn well to the atmosphere of the album, being one of its key numbers I think - they sound so focused, inspired and determinate and are already reaching the stage they just couldn't do wrong - there is a certain maturity and self-determination in everything they do here (and in the whole album), no hostages taken. The way they build up the tension, by a clever and adventurous use of instruments, is just so 'Beggaresque'. Mick himself is masterful using the third Big Dylanisque Component - the voice - to get the message through. I would even say that the 'artificiality' is a charming component in the song - it states how serious and ambitious they are, and not being afraid of taking riskies in song-writing boundaries. They were going somewhere. It is a great track in a great album. but not every track is "Sympathy For The DEvil" or "Street Fighting Man"...
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 14:43 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 13:57
Quote
HairballQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
liddas
So many interesting things here since the last time I checked the thread.
I'll try to catch up later, as soon as I recover from the shock for reading on a Stones allegedly "fan" site that Jigsaw Puzzle is one of the weakest tracks on Beggars and a clear example of, what?, Jagger still being a novice at songwriting ...
Puzzle is not Beggars' best track only because we have Devil and Street Fighting man on the same album. Yet it remains one of the most brilliant pieces of music ever put on tape by the stones.
And - since this is a Jagger thread - one of Mick's best vocal interpretations ever. You do not even need to understand what he is raving about with the lyrics, he gets across THAT FEEL just right and perfect!
C
I jumped in my chair when I read that, too, but I've learned through the years here that taste is hard to discuss.
I think many don't like or appreciate the surprising maturity of the track, though.
Lol it's a weak track imo, crucify me all you want!
Surprising maturity?
"Oh, there's twenty-thousand grandmas
Wave their hankies in the air
All burning up their pensions
And shouting, "It's not fair!"
Hmm...ok if you say so.
I'm also surprised that people actually praise the tune Emotional Rescue.
On the other hand, some people can't relate to why I think Crosseyed Heart is better than all Stones albums since Tattoo You!
Don't worry about people not being able to relate to that Hairball, its called denial, the Jagger campers would rather jump out of their chairs than admit that Crosseyed Heart is the best album since Tattoo You.I'd go further, its the best album since Exile and arguably as good in some respects. It pisses all over Black And Blue except for three songs, Memory Motel, Hand Of Fate and Crazy Mama. Its better than Emotional Rescue for sure.
It has more consistancty than Goats Head Soup and IORR.
Ok guys jump out of your chairs
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:01
Quote
zQuote
matxil
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
I think it's Keith.
Ah. Well, in that case, I like Keith's bass. Oh dear, I can see where this is going...
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:02
Let's not forget that there are tongue in cheek-numbers on Beggars as well
Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman sound like they're coming from a different band that made Jig Saw Puzzle.
The maturity I'm referring to has to do with perfecting the arranging and orchestration they tried out on Buttons and Satanic. The balance between the playfulness and psychedelic trips, the englishness and the american blues is all to be found in JSP, imo.
The lovely mix of Mick's Dylan-personna, Brian's freaky mellotron and Keith's blues guitar is quite unique.
So, I would rather explain it this way than calling the track «artifical». It can be different, somewhat new AND real – for me.
Nevertheness, it's a lovely track
Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman sound like they're coming from a different band that made Jig Saw Puzzle.
The maturity I'm referring to has to do with perfecting the arranging and orchestration they tried out on Buttons and Satanic. The balance between the playfulness and psychedelic trips, the englishness and the american blues is all to be found in JSP, imo.
The lovely mix of Mick's Dylan-personna, Brian's freaky mellotron and Keith's blues guitar is quite unique.
So, I would rather explain it this way than calling the track «artifical». It can be different, somewhat new AND real – for me.
Nevertheness, it's a lovely track
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
stone4ever
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:07
Quote
zQuote
matxil
It seemed the right moment to throw that bomb in the thread.
But you're right that the studio version is not bad, it's somewhat saved by the production, and I like Bill's bass. But I'm glad it's the last song on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, coming just after the moment when I stop the music.
I think it's Keith.
It's Mick !!
Mick does everything, he doesn't need the Stones, he wrote all the melody's all the Lyrics, Riffs, guitar parts , the lot. This is a Mick thread so there.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 14:13 by stone4ever.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:08
Funny how you all think JigSaw Puzzle is so different from the other songs. I never thought about it like that. I also don't see the connection between JigSaw and Between the Buttons. For me, it fits in perfectly with the rest, Parachute Woman, Salt of the Earth, Prodigal Song, some more blues, some more country, some more "folk". The Dylan influence is clear on JigSaw Puzzle, especially in the lyrics, but the overall feel is perfect Beggars Banquet: decadent, sexy rock n roll, with the emphasis on roll.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:11
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Let's not forget that there are tongue in cheek-numbers on Beggars as well
Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman sound like they're coming from a different band that made Jig Saw Puzzle.
The maturity I'm referring to has to do with perfecting the arranging and orchestration they tried out on Buttons and Satanic. The balance between the playfulness and psychedelic trips, the englishness and the american blues is all to be found in JSP, imo.
The lovely mix of Mick's Dylan-personna, Brian's freaky mellotron and Keith's blues guitar is quite unique.
So, I would rather explain it this way than calling the track «artifical». It can be different, somewhat new AND real – for me.
Nevertheness, it's a lovely track
I just want to point out that when I was discussing of its artificality or novicy, I had only the 'bare' song, something Jagger has done by himself, in mind, and not the final recording in the album. What you describe here by maturity I could't agree more.
- Doxa
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:12
Quote
matxil
Funny how you all think JigSaw Puzzle is so different from the other songs. I never thought about it like that. I also don't see the connection between JigSaw and Between the Buttons. For me, it fits in perfectly with the rest, Parachute Woman, Salt of the Earth, Prodigal Song, some more blues, some more country, some more "folk". The Dylan influence is clear on JigSaw Puzzle, especially in the lyrics, but the overall feel is perfect Beggars Banquet: decadent, sexy rock n roll, with the emphasis on roll.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
Do you hear Brian adding colour to those other songs? I think the aswer lies there..
Who's Been Sleeping Here was what I was referring to on Buttons. That might have been the first Dylan-esque tune they wrote.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
z
()
Date: June 30, 2017 14:58
X
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 15:22 by z.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 15:22 by z.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:13
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
Let's not forget that there are tongue in cheek-numbers on Beggars as well
Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman sound like they're coming from a different band that made Jig Saw Puzzle.
The maturity I'm referring to has to do with perfecting the arranging and orchestration they tried out on Buttons and Satanic. The balance between the playfulness and psychedelic trips, the englishness and the american blues is all to be found in JSP, imo.
The lovely mix of Mick's Dylan-personna, Brian's freaky mellotron and Keith's blues guitar is quite unique.
So, I would rather explain it this way than calling the track «artifical». It can be different, somewhat new AND real – for me.
Nevertheness, it's a lovely track
I just want to point out that when I was discussing of its artificality or novicy, I had only the 'bare' song, something Jagger has done by himself, in mind, and not the final recording in the album. What you describe here by maturity I could't agree more.
- Doxa
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:16
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
matxil
Funny how you all think JigSaw Puzzle is so different from the other songs. I never thought about it like that. I also don't see the connection between JigSaw and Between the Buttons. For me, it fits in perfectly with the rest, Parachute Woman, Salt of the Earth, Prodigal Song, some more blues, some more country, some more "folk". The Dylan influence is clear on JigSaw Puzzle, especially in the lyrics, but the overall feel is perfect Beggars Banquet: decadent, sexy rock n roll, with the emphasis on roll.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
Do you hear Brian adding colour to those other songs? I think the aswer lies there..
Who's Been Sleeping Here was what I was referring to on Buttons. That might have been the first Dylan-esque tune they wrote.
One of teh great themes in the past here in IORR has been discussing and critizising the supposed huge gap between BEGGARS BANQUET and the previous, more poppish and psychedelic era albums BETWEEN THE BUTTONS and especially THEIR SATANIC MAJESTIES, as is traditionally emphasizied in rock journalism. Surely there is a gap and BEGGARS has this 'back to the roots' basic feel in it, but at the same time thereare still so many things from their previous musical experiments which are still continued in BEGGARS. They were still a pretty experimental band by nature, and, like The Beatles, basically a studio band, making new, exciting-sounding recordings and albums being the main purpose of their whole existence. Some experiments were different by nature - for example, what Keth did with his Philips cassette recorder in "Street Fighting Man" and "Jumpin' Jack Flash", or the ackward decision to use a samba in rock and roll song - not to forget all those more 'typical' Brian or Brian-type 'colourings' in some songs, like here discussed in "Jig-Saw Puzzle", or the tamboura in "Street Fighting Man". I think a big charm of BEGGARS BANQUET and LET IT BLEED as well (they aren't that different) is the typical 60's like brave experimentalism married with a simple back-to-the-roots rhythm and blues. IN STICKY FINGERS, by contrast, most of it is compansated or substituted by a professional sounding, genre-perfect modern rock band sound, cultivated by playing live again. A clear symptom of from STICKY FINGERS on the difference between studio and live versions of the songs aren't that big as is with BEGGARS/BLEED material - that mostly needed to be re-arranged to fit to a modern rock show.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-30 15:19 by Doxa.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
matxil
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:37
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
matxil
Funny how you all think JigSaw Puzzle is so different from the other songs. I never thought about it like that. I also don't see the connection between JigSaw and Between the Buttons. For me, it fits in perfectly with the rest, Parachute Woman, Salt of the Earth, Prodigal Song, some more blues, some more country, some more "folk". The Dylan influence is clear on JigSaw Puzzle, especially in the lyrics, but the overall feel is perfect Beggars Banquet: decadent, sexy rock n roll, with the emphasis on roll.
And I like the bass here too (Keith's?, Bill's?, Charlie's?). Actually, coming to think of it, the bass is consistently great on Beggars Banquet.
Do you hear Brian adding colour to those other songs? I think the aswer lies there..
Who's Been Sleeping Here was what I was referring to on Buttons. That might have been the first Dylan-esque tune they wrote.
Fair enough, the mellotron in the background nice, but it's not the first thing I think of when I think of the song.
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:55
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Let's not forget that there are tongue in cheek-numbers on Beggars as well
Dear Doctor and Parachute Woman sound like they're coming from a different band that made Jig Saw Puzzle.
The same band that did Jump Jacking Flash!
Re: Mick Jagger solo works
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: June 30, 2017 15:55
I dont hear Jigsaw as a different kind of groove from the rest of BB. IMO the common denominator is Jagger establishing himself as more of a writer. A little bit heavier, socially a little sharper; his bite has more grit behind it. He digs deeper into the Blues, reaching Gospel.
Jigsaw is all about Jagger. yes, there is Brian, and also a great Bass guitar, but it is basically verse/chorus again and again. Does it go on a bit too long? Probably; but that chorus is just so damn beautiful. And the combo of the acoustic guitar strumming madly, the Mellotron, and that Bass is like a mantra.
I do like the "Grandmas hankies" lines too. Because it is labored, and a bit lofty. Just like some of the more obscure verses and bridge in "Salt of Earth". But I try to see it in context of Jagger working on discovering what he had to lay down. With Dylan, Lennon and the Band, Zappa, Van Morrison all around.
Jigsaw is all about Jagger. yes, there is Brian, and also a great Bass guitar, but it is basically verse/chorus again and again. Does it go on a bit too long? Probably; but that chorus is just so damn beautiful. And the combo of the acoustic guitar strumming madly, the Mellotron, and that Bass is like a mantra.
I do like the "Grandmas hankies" lines too. Because it is labored, and a bit lofty. Just like some of the more obscure verses and bridge in "Salt of Earth". But I try to see it in context of Jagger working on discovering what he had to lay down. With Dylan, Lennon and the Band, Zappa, Van Morrison all around.
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