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Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: October 30, 2015 16:07

Quote
Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

Mick recorded the vocals for it with Bob Clearmountain. The "reggae" version featured Mick singing something similar, some babbling about never stop. It seems that was as far as it got. They cut the rock version and went back to the reggae version.

The song as you know it, the riff, is Keith. The song as you know it, the words, is Mick. Mick did the vocals in 1981. It was Start It Up but while Bob Clearmountain was mixing the song Mick was signing Start Me Up and Clearmountain thought it was better.


“Start It Up,” take two, was one of the tracks that Kimsey salvaged from the Some Girls sessions, and this time around, everything clicked: Jagger came up with words that matched Keith's powerful, off-kilter main riff, and three years after it was started, the song became a keeper. The final overdubs and mixing took place at the Power Station in New York: That thump and sheen on “Start Me Up” is partly the work of mixer Bob Clearmountain, who first worked with the Stones on the single mix of “Miss You.” It was on “Start Me Up” that he first used his famous “bathroom reverb” — pumping some drum and vocal tracks through a miked speaker in a small reverberant bathroom downstairs in the studio building. It was also in New York that Jagger changed the lyric from “start it up” to “start me up.”

“I remember he came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang it right in my ear,” Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing. He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah. That's great! Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’


[www.mixonline.com]

More on Start Me Up.

[www.soundonsound.com]

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: October 30, 2015 16:16

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DandelionPowderman
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GasLightStreet
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DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

Follow up in regard to recording new songs... yes and no being that EXILE is not the follow up to STICKY FINGERS then? HA HA! That's hilarious!

The TRUE follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE is UNDERCOVER regarding new songs, new recordings. Nothing for TATTOO YOU was recorded with the band ie bottoms for TATTOO YOU. There were no TATTOO YOU recording sessions with the band, only for overdubs. For 2 years the band did not get together to record.

I think people don't know that. Or they assume they did.

Everything for ER was finished band wise in 1979, as well as what was used for TY - Heaven, Hang Fire, Neighbours and No Use In Crying. And if they'd not finished those it wouldn't matter because they started fresh (except for one song) for U.

It's all very funny.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: October 30, 2015 16:17

Quote
Naturalust
These songwriting discussions sometimes remind me of conspiracy theories in that they often start with someone's ideology (usually concerning Keith or Mick's abilities) and then use small sound bites and observations to connect the dots to achieve whatever result fits their way of looking at things. winking smiley

What the chemtrails did you say?

spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 16:34

Quote
GasLightStreet
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DandelionPowderman
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GasLightStreet
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DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

Follow up in regard to recording new songs... yes and no being that EXILE is not the follow up to STICKY FINGERS then? HA HA! That's hilarious!

The TRUE follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE is UNDERCOVER regarding new songs, new recordings. Nothing for TATTOO YOU was recorded with the band ie bottoms for TATTOO YOU. There were no TATTOO YOU recording sessions with the band, only for overdubs. For 2 years the band did not get together to record.

I think people don't know that. Or they assume they did.

Everything for ER was finished band wise in 1979, as well as what was used for TY - Heaven, Hang Fire, Neighbours and No Use In Crying. And if they'd not finished those it wouldn't matter because they started fresh (except for one song) for U.

It's all very funny.

Didn't they work on Black Limousine as well?

I meant that there is a lot of ER in TY musically, hence those albums go well together sound- and music-wise smiling smiley

As a real album, Undercover is of course the true follow-up.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: October 30, 2015 16:43

Black Limousine was started in 1973 at Musicland but was recorded again in 1977 for SOME GIRLS.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:00

If one external circumstance had been different, would the facts about this subjectmatter, related in this thread mainly to internal aspects of the band, whatever these facts are, have been the same? Would stated explanations have been unchanged?

That is, what if UNDERCOVER had been broadly received with enthousiasm?

What do answers to that hypothetical question say about the status of the views in this thread, given what actually happeneed?

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 17:16

Quote
GasLightStreet
Black Limousine was started in 1973 at Musicland but was recorded again in 1977 for SOME GIRLS.

I know that, but not worked on at all in 1979?

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:17

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

Mick recorded the vocals for it with Bob Clearmountain. The "reggae" version featured Mick singing something similar, some babbling about never stop. It seems that was as far as it got. They cut the rock version and went back to the reggae version.

The song as you know it, the riff, is Keith. The song as you know it, the words, is Mick. Mick did the vocals in 1981. It was Start It Up but while Bob Clearmountain was mixing the song Mick was signing Start Me Up and Clearmountain thought it was better.


“Start It Up,” take two, was one of the tracks that Kimsey salvaged from the Some Girls sessions, and this time around, everything clicked: Jagger came up with words that matched Keith's powerful, off-kilter main riff, and three years after it was started, the song became a keeper. The final overdubs and mixing took place at the Power Station in New York: That thump and sheen on “Start Me Up” is partly the work of mixer Bob Clearmountain, who first worked with the Stones on the single mix of “Miss You.” It was on “Start Me Up” that he first used his famous “bathroom reverb” — pumping some drum and vocal tracks through a miked speaker in a small reverberant bathroom downstairs in the studio building. It was also in New York that Jagger changed the lyric from “start it up” to “start me up.”

“I remember he came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang it right in my ear,” Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing. He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah. That's great! Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’


[www.mixonline.com]

More on Start Me Up.

[www.soundonsound.com]

Thank you. So this is, in fact, a great example of the songwriting partnership bearing tremendous fruit.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: barbabang ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:22

HMS thinks DIRTY WORK is one of their greatest albums and is better than EXILE.

So where as Doxa may be stirring the pot, others are completely off their meds.

In the end, there are those that know and the rest that believe. Believers never know, they're too busy believing.




Well...Dirty Work is certentainly better than A Bigger Bang.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:46

Quote
Doxa

Well, I don't rememeber making such a straight statement, or that was not my intention, but yeah, my claim was actually that Jagger/Richards colloboration waekened due to Keith's contribution wasn't very inspirational for Mick any longer. That of Keith not evolving much from the musical presuppositions of EXILE ON MAIN STREET being one reason, while Mick seemingly wanted to move on. But other being that of his antenna's stopping functioning as good as earlier. Just remember what sort of stuff this guy had put on the table just a couple of years earlier... (sometimes I get the feeling that those who are strongly defending the mid 70's material do not really see or have forgotten how damn strong the material Keith could deliver in his peak years... "Gimme Shelter", "Street Fighting Man", "Ruby Tuesday". "Paint It Black", etc. etc. . Mick knew that man, and I am sure also missed him during the dark 70's. when all he was able to see was - this is a caracature! - a guy, if he turns up at all, trying desperately come up with just another variant of open tuning riffage he called a "song". "Hey Mick, finish this one!" "Oh thanks, mate..." )

But about that 'not evolving' idea... I think one way to understand Keith's musical evolution or path after EXILE is to see as writing one more songs into it. To make the 'Americana statement' of the album even more complete. I mean, his reggae, funk and rock-a-billy experiments adds there nicely, probably Waits stuff as well. But by contrast, I think Jagger wanted to get rid of the whole 'Americana' thing (especially when that sort of thing started to be out of date), to do something more 'modern' or 'relevant'. But it wasn't so easy - for some years he seemed to struggle how to do it - or even what to exactly to do. Probably because (a) the band was very strongly rooted to the bluesy rock sound they had created in those peak years, that it was hard to do something else convincingly; (b) he wasn't that sure what they should do now, how to adapt to the latest trends, or even into which ones, and in which degree. I think Jagger - and The Stones - didn't succeed until - and for the very last time - in SOME GIRLS, an album, which is not only a fresh coctail of something new and old, but being convincing, even 'relevant' as well.

Hmm.. if Keith's later ambitions - the ones which make him 'click' - could be defined as writing new pages into EXILE book, Mick's could be defined as writing anything else but not EXILE since that book is already written...grinning smiley

- Doxa

The statement I bolded above just doesn't hold up.

Reggae was new and cool in the 70s. It was not "Americana" and indeed Reggae did not develop in the United States. If Mick had been the one to bring Reggae into the Stones your post above would have made sense, but he didn't, Keith (and Ronnie I suppose) did.

Rock-a-billy, I'm not sure which Stones song you're referring to here, but it certainly could be considered "retro Americana," I'll grant that. (although interesting that some of the more successful british bands like the clash experimented with it in the late 70s.

Funk was new, also, and like Disco an extension of the R&B arc. So perhaps it kind of fits into your argument (although unlike Exile it was not a musical form from the past) However let's look at Mick....

Disco was indeed new and brought by Mick - but of course, it was in fact born in Philadelphia and New York city, and was a natural evolution of what was happening in R&B music in America.

It's just not valid to say that Keith wanted to pursue a nostalgic/American path linearly from EOMS, nor is it valid to say that Mick specifically wanted to avoid it. It's more valid to say the band was generally directionless and jumping from trend to trend post-EOMS (and all the way up to today.)

The Keith/Americana thing is something that became very explicit in 2015 with Crosseyed Heart. not in post-EOMS 1970s



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 17:54 by Turner68.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:50

Part of my latest preceding post to this more directly expressed:

If UNDERCOVER had been broadly received with enthousiasm, would the following album release of the Rolling Stones have been the version of DIRTY WORK, that we now are familiar with, or possibly a release of quite another character ?

Does that speculation have any bearings on the discussion in this thread?

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 30, 2015 17:56

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GasLightStreet
Quote
GetYerAngie
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Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?



In this issue of Rolling Stone...

What don't you like about his solo albums?
Wimpy songs, wimpy performance, bad recording. That's about enough.

Thanks for the research GasLightStreet - Keith has made it very clear what he thinks.

Or maybe he was just in a bad mood that day.... smiling smiley

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 18:44

Quote
Turner68
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

Mick recorded the vocals for it with Bob Clearmountain. The "reggae" version featured Mick singing something similar, some babbling about never stop. It seems that was as far as it got. They cut the rock version and went back to the reggae version.

The song as you know it, the riff, is Keith. The song as you know it, the words, is Mick. Mick did the vocals in 1981. It was Start It Up but while Bob Clearmountain was mixing the song Mick was signing Start Me Up and Clearmountain thought it was better.


“Start It Up,” take two, was one of the tracks that Kimsey salvaged from the Some Girls sessions, and this time around, everything clicked: Jagger came up with words that matched Keith's powerful, off-kilter main riff, and three years after it was started, the song became a keeper. The final overdubs and mixing took place at the Power Station in New York: That thump and sheen on “Start Me Up” is partly the work of mixer Bob Clearmountain, who first worked with the Stones on the single mix of “Miss You.” It was on “Start Me Up” that he first used his famous “bathroom reverb” — pumping some drum and vocal tracks through a miked speaker in a small reverberant bathroom downstairs in the studio building. It was also in New York that Jagger changed the lyric from “start it up” to “start me up.”

“I remember he came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang it right in my ear,” Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing. He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah. That's great! Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’


[www.mixonline.com]

More on Start Me Up.

[www.soundonsound.com]

Thank you. So this is, in fact, a great example of the songwriting partnership bearing tremendous fruit.

Yeah, that it is - taking the simple components, how effortless and natural it sounds, when the things just click. There are riffs and riffs and then there is something like "Start Me Up" which hits every damn time one hears it from radio or elsewhere... it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't done anything even close to its greatness and catchiness ever since... And if memory serves, Keith had initially figured it as a sort of reggae thing they tried again and again, with no seemingly satisfying results. And then, probably just for a change, Keith played the main riff with a classical Stones style (that I am afraid hurted at least Mick's trendy ears at the time). And then went back to reggae, and forget it for some years...

"Start Me Up" is actually a case of an ideal Jagger/Richards colloboration - Keith comes up with a stunning riff, and inspired Jagger adds the melody and lyrics... BANG: an instant classic is born...

Of course, the question arises: why didn't Jagger hear the genious already then, back in 1977? My guess simply is that he didn't want the album (SOME GIRLS) to sound that 'classical' retro Stones. In 1981 he had seemingly come into another conclusions... Actually I have never really seen any good - or any - explanation how Mick found or accepted that 'retro' mood for that album, taking his usual distrust for such a thing (and looking what he had just done and what he will be soon doing). He sensed the air rightly, or had they such a hurry to release a new record for the American Tour that anything in the can would do? Or he just realized that there just were damn great songs in the can that needed to be released no matter how dated they might sound? Or he, after the terrible EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions, just loved finishing an album by his own, quickly and effectively, no matter the content, if not having to fight with Keith all the time and wait the right feel to come from those endless sessions?

And why did they go so deep in their archive studies that they brought several songs songs from almost pre-historical pre-Pathe Marconi days, taking how fruithful those sessions had been, having so much rather fresh material in the can? Anyway, thankfully they did!

Now, I have written so much that I need a drink... Halloween, babes...drinking smiley

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 18:51 by Doxa.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 30, 2015 18:53

Quote
Doxa
it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since

I find the Star Me Up riff a bit cliche and not really one of his best imo.
Perhaps it's been overplayed and I've heard it too many times, but even back in '81 it had lost it's luster for me after the initial rush of hearing "new" Stones material.
I'd say the opening riff to Struggle surpasses it, just to name one - but again just my opinion.

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 18:56

<it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since>

Of course he has confused smiley

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:24

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since>

Of course he has confused smiley

More egregious to me (and this is all in good fun of course) is the implication that Mick was the one bringing the non-Americana ideas to the table and Keith - with his reggae - was stuck back in the Exile sessions and Americana.. chuckle.

The more I think deeply about the question, thanks to Doxa's thought-provoking posts, the more I start to feel like the biggest issue is the singing and the lyrics. But I know we're not supposed to say that here ;-) and I do stand by my "equal responsibility" principle.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 19:27 by Turner68.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:32

Quote
Turner68
Quote
DandelionPowderman
<it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since>

Of course he has confused smiley

More egregious to me (and this is all in good fun of course) is the implication that Mick was the one bringing the non-Americana ideas to the table and Keith - with his reggae - was stuck back in the Exile sessions and Americana.. chuckle.

The more I think deeply about the question, thanks to Doxa's thought-provoking posts, the more I start to feel like the biggest issue is the singing and the lyrics. But I know we're not supposed to say that here ;-) and I do stand by my "equal responsibility" principle.

Looks like we've come full circle then!


And yes, all in good fun...it's only rock'n'roll! smiling smiley

--------------------------------
"Rip this joint, gonna save your soul..."

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: October 30, 2015 19:39

Quote
GasLightStreet
Keith does his songs and Mick has mostly nothing to do with them. Two exceptions I can think of are Slipping Away and This Place Is Empty.

Add "Thief In The Night". I swore it was a 100% KR song till I read it was a 50/50 effort.
Things aren't what they seem with the Stones...

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 19:45

Not a 50/50 effort by others than Keith and Pierre? Mick sang on it, but Keith overdubbed it.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:11

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DandelionPowderman
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Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
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Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
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Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?confused smiley

Thanks for finally saying that this was just your opinion, because there are many fans who find the songwriting inpired for the SG, ER and TY sessions (the latter is mostly ER sessions, of course).

You didn't claim anything about 1971? When do you think Exile was recorded? That's exactly the year you said Keith stopped listening to new music and evolving.

You are putting words into my mouth...

But I really don't know what to think of that "there are many fans who think otherwise" point. You always seem to remind me of that. Of course there are, and of course I am only telling my point of view into things. People can agree or disagree.

But I need to clear up a few things. I don't claim anything categorical, but like almost always, I just try to catch some tendencies. I don't claim either that those Pathe Marconi sessions weren't "inspirational". Like I mentioned above, Jagger was extremely inspired especially during SOME GIRLS sessions, but that wasn't particularly due to Richards, or what he brought on the table (except, say, "Beast of Burden"). Or to put it other way, Richards wasn't that fond of Mick's desire to do a dance number or play those punk-inspired way too fast rockers. Jagger surely sounded inspirational in TATTOO YOU as well, but as we know, that album was exceptional in many ways, and he almost single-handidly finished it by himself. EMOTIONAL RESCUE seemingly was a pain of ass for him, as was UNDERCOVER as well. Because him and Keith seemed to fight about every detail about the album, both having a different vision about the direction of the band (Bill Wyman documents this well). It is telling that the strongest or at least most memorable songs Mick wrote for those two albums, both being first singles and hits - "Emotional Rescue" and "Undercover of The Night" - Keith had nothing to do with them (and Keith hasn't hesitated telling his opinion of them).

But let me remind, once again, I am not here judging the whole Stones output and its quality; I just try reconstruct Jagger's perspective on the things, concentrated on his and Keith's colloboration. I know you are a huge fan of those Pathe Marconi sessions, and I wholeheartidly agree that those were very productive sessions with some high-caliber material. And there were all that 'ancient art of weaving' and so on. But that doesn't mean that Mick was particularly happy how the things were evolving. For example, you might be the world biggest 'weaving' fan, but I am not that sure that Jagger is - or that exactly was very inspirational for him.

But the output was still rather strong, because especially during SOME GIRLS sessions Mick seemed to be in the height of his own creative powers. He really was pushing forwards with a self-esteem which would also give a birth to his solo career. Even Keith commented in LIFE, of course with his belittlening way, "Jagger had finally learned to write rock numbers" (or something to the effect). He really had strong personal visions of the musical direction of the band, but even tough it still worked nicely with Keith in SOME GIRLS, it was clear that Keith, after sobering up, wasn't sharing those visions as the years go by. In my opinion, that tension was one very big reason for Jagger to go solo. So to understand the "WW3", I think we should take a closer look at what happened during those Pathe Marconi sessions, of how the things evolved. We also know that Jagger has refused to work with that Pathe Marconi method with the Stones again. The closest might the ones for VOODOO LOUNGE, but seemingly Mick lost the interest during the process.

- Doxa

You're jumping elegantly over my main beef with your theories. Mick and Keith (because they have to be together in some way for making a consistent great output, imo) must have experienced this clash earlier on - way earlier than you describe here. BB and LIB were the only albums in the "golden period" where most songs were from their respective sessions (Yeah, I know YCAGWYW was from 1968), while SF and Exile relied heavily on earlier greatness.

Because it is still the inspiration you are theorizing about, right, not merely the outcome?

Well, then something must have happened between the glimmers between 1968 and 1969, and of course we know what that was...

When Keith was on his way out of the heaviest drug haze he certainly didn't lack inspiration (lots of books AND Keith tell us that). I haven't read anything about quarreling and collaboration problems from the 1977 Pathé Marconi sessions. The problems started on the 1979 sessions. Despite those problems, these sessions provided material for ER, a good part of TY, the Undercover singles and a good part of the SG bonus album (add the RCA sessions in between the two Marconi sessions as well).

Like I said in my first post, I think you have good points, but there is a lot of thinking after writing as well. I'm just merely bringing those points to the table here (and that's of course way easier to do after reading your post smiling smiley )

Mick's quote from an interview after the 1977 sessions says a lot, imo:
«Keith has written his first whole song since Happy, and it's great!»

Yeah, I might have a slightly different picture of Keith's functionality during early Pathe Marconi sessions, but over-all I don't find anything to disagree with.

It could be that something happened between Jagger and Richards already in 1968/69 which would affect to their colloboration, but if you bother to read through what I wrote to my my post above, I think that didn't really was such disastrous for their output since the guýs were still thinking alike of the music. That's why we still get such an incredible work as EXILE ON MAIN STREET. If the guys wouldn't have agreed on the main visions, that sort of cohesion the album has, wouldn't have been possible.

Oh yeah, a quote by Bill Wyman of the SOME GIRLS sessions (I know he has something different as well, but that is what he writes in ROLLING WITH THE STONES, p. 445):

"We recorded until the end of November - much of the time it was frustrating. Keith wouldn't turn up when we did, and when he wanted to work he'd call us in."

But thanks Dandie, like always, of your inspiring and insigthful comments. I always respect them (especially the critical ones)!smileys with beer

- Doxa

Bill also wrote this (about the 1977-sessions):

«We had such a great time in the studio that we never stopped really. We were going to be there for four or five weeks originally—middle of October till early December—and we were still there in February. We were enjoying ourselves, we were getting things done and getting off on new songs. We probably finished 12 or 13 songs, and then there’s a whole mass of demos and jams. We finished up with 96 reels of tape, where a normal band might use six for an album».

Cheers indeed! smileys with beer

The Anita-incident influenced Mick and Keith's relationship even more than we think, I guess - hence they started writing less together, and had to rely on the song-bank (with nuggets from earlier years) for SF and Exile. Most of SF isn't even from the 70s.
'
Spot on Mr D. I think so too. Anita and Mick with Brian as a constant reminder probably pushed Keith deeper into smack. Which worked for a while and imo Keith was great in the 70s but surely it must have f--ked up their partnership. Heroin cementing an underlying silent animosity which eventually burst open in the 80s. The Anita quote actually refers to Brian and how they treated him.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 20:46

Quote
Turner68
Quote
Doxa

Well, I don't rememeber making such a straight statement, or that was not my intention, but yeah, my claim was actually that Jagger/Richards colloboration waekened due to Keith's contribution wasn't very inspirational for Mick any longer. That of Keith not evolving much from the musical presuppositions of EXILE ON MAIN STREET being one reason, while Mick seemingly wanted to move on. But other being that of his antenna's stopping functioning as good as earlier. Just remember what sort of stuff this guy had put on the table just a couple of years earlier... (sometimes I get the feeling that those who are strongly defending the mid 70's material do not really see or have forgotten how damn strong the material Keith could deliver in his peak years... "Gimme Shelter", "Street Fighting Man", "Ruby Tuesday". "Paint It Black", etc. etc. . Mick knew that man, and I am sure also missed him during the dark 70's. when all he was able to see was - this is a caracature! - a guy, if he turns up at all, trying desperately come up with just another variant of open tuning riffage he called a "song". "Hey Mick, finish this one!" "Oh thanks, mate..." )

But about that 'not evolving' idea... I think one way to understand Keith's musical evolution or path after EXILE is to see as writing one more songs into it. To make the 'Americana statement' of the album even more complete. I mean, his reggae, funk and rock-a-billy experiments adds there nicely, probably Waits stuff as well. But by contrast, I think Jagger wanted to get rid of the whole 'Americana' thing (especially when that sort of thing started to be out of date), to do something more 'modern' or 'relevant'. But it wasn't so easy - for some years he seemed to struggle how to do it - or even what to exactly to do. Probably because (a) the band was very strongly rooted to the bluesy rock sound they had created in those peak years, that it was hard to do something else convincingly; (b) he wasn't that sure what they should do now, how to adapt to the latest trends, or even into which ones, and in which degree. I think Jagger - and The Stones - didn't succeed until - and for the very last time - in SOME GIRLS, an album, which is not only a fresh coctail of something new and old, but being convincing, even 'relevant' as well.

Hmm.. if Keith's later ambitions - the ones which make him 'click' - could be defined as writing new pages into EXILE book, Mick's could be defined as writing anything else but not EXILE since that book is already written...grinning smiley

- Doxa

The statement I bolded above just doesn't hold up.

Reggae was new and cool in the 70s. It was not "Americana" and indeed Reggae did not develop in the United States. If Mick had been the one to bring Reggae into the Stones your post above would have made sense, but he didn't, Keith (and Ronnie I suppose) did.

Rock-a-billy, I'm not sure which Stones song you're referring to here, but it certainly could be considered "retro Americana," I'll grant that. (although interesting that some of the more successful british bands like the clash experimented with it in the late 70s.

Funk was new, also, and like Disco an extension of the R&B arc. So perhaps it kind of fits into your argument (although unlike Exile it was not a musical form from the past) However let's look at Mick....

Disco was indeed new and brought by Mick - but of course, it was in fact born in Philadelphia and New York city, and was a natural evolution of what was happening in R&B music in America.

It's just not valid to say that Keith wanted to pursue a nostalgic/American path linearly from EOMS, nor is it valid to say that Mick specifically wanted to avoid it. It's more valid to say the band was generally directionless and jumping from trend to trend post-EOMS (and all the way up to today.)

The Keith/Americana thing is something that became very explicit in 2015 with Crosseyed Heart. not in post-EOMS 1970s

And I thought I start drinking, but shit,I guess I need to reply here...

No, seriously, thanks turner68 for your insightful comment. You are right with your corrections. I admit I amnot too happy with my selection of some words here, the most problematic being that of "Americana". Yeah, you are right about, for example, putting 'reggae' into that realm. But let's say I didn't have a better term for what I mean - but I hope I some day have.

But I actually got the idea of using 'Americana' from the very source you mention in the last part of your post: CROSSEYED HEART. Also you seem to accept using that label there. But that very album includes also genres Keith get familiar with after EXILE - those very ones I meant as an extension of the Americana thing of EXILE ON MAIN STREET, "writing more pages on that book". Even though reggae is an Jamaican thing (and supposedly Keith already was somehow awere of its early incarnations in the Jamaican clubs in England, already in the 60's) in his musical world that seems to fit very well to the musical landscape of EXILE, having some sort of 'roots' music like authenticity in there as well - next to blues and country and so on - something Keith considers as good music. We could say similar things about funk as well - fitting naturally into Keith's musical vocabulary (next to some older trends of black American music, blues, r&b, gospel, soul, etc..)

The way I see CROSSEYED HEART is like seeing through Keith's musical history and devolopment; the music he considers great. And what is striking is the similarities it has with EXILE - it is like "old man's EXILE", like I described it in its 'celebration' thread.

About: rock-a-billy, there was a song like "Claudine", but I think most of it can be heard in the guitar sounds Keith and Ronnie experimented during the late 70's and the 80's (for exmple, the guitar sound in "Little T&A" and over. all during 1981/82 tour - of course, playing Cochran's "Twenty Flight Rock").

I leave the Mick bit later - your criticism was a spot on. Trying to explain things in relation to Americana doesn't fit to Mick at all. To understand him, and how he differs from Keith, we really need some other concepts.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 20:51 by Doxa.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 22:30

Actually, I think the conversation has evolved over the last couple of pages into a thoughtful and good one, and not merely a retrenchment. Thanks everyone for an interesting read.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 22:33

I agree TeddyB, but these huge nested quoted posts are a bit of a strain. I can't imagine Bjornulf's server likes them too much either.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 22:38

That why I didn't quote anyone!

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Blueranger ()
Date: October 30, 2015 22:46

Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
GasLightStreet
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

Follow up in regard to recording new songs... yes and no being that EXILE is not the follow up to STICKY FINGERS then? HA HA! That's hilarious!

The TRUE follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE is UNDERCOVER regarding new songs, new recordings. Nothing for TATTOO YOU was recorded with the band ie bottoms for TATTOO YOU. There were no TATTOO YOU recording sessions with the band, only for overdubs. For 2 years the band did not get together to record.

I think people don't know that. Or they assume they did.

Everything for ER was finished band wise in 1979, as well as what was used for TY - Heaven, Hang Fire, Neighbours and No Use In Crying. And if they'd not finished those it wouldn't matter because they started fresh (except for one song) for U.

It's all very funny.

As far as I know, Neighbours and Heaven are recordings done specifically for Tattoo You.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 23:17

They were both worked on for the ER sessions.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 23:27

Considering ER was released in June 1980 and most sources say initial Heaven and Neighbors recordings took place later in that year October at the earliest, I'm not sure where the "worked on for the ER sessions" comes from. Is there some source for this?

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 23:51

Yes. Posted here before. Zentgraf, I think. GasLightStreet has this down - he'll probably have it ready in a flash. I can't do it right now..

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 31, 2015 01:23

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Yes. Posted here before. Zentgraf, I think. GasLightStreet has this down - he'll probably have it ready in a flash. I can't do it right now..

zentgraf, 1979:

790621A 10th June - 7th July & late July - 25th August & 12th September - 19th October:
Boulogne-Billancourt (near Paris), France, Pathé Marconi Studios. Producer: The
Glimmer Twins. Sound engineer: Chris Kimsey. Additional musicians: Bobby Keys
(sax)/Sugar Blue (harm)/Martin Gordon (bass; two days in September)
- Dance I (MJ/KR/RW) -early lyrics
- Dance II (MJ/KR/RW) -early lyrics, with `three, four..."-count-in
- Dance III (MJ/KR/RW) -early lyrics with `two, three, four"-count-in
- Dance IV (MJ/KR/RW) -first early version with original intro
- Down In The Hole I (MJ/KR) -early version with partly different lyrics
- Emotional Rescue I (MJ/KR) -long version
- Hang Fire III (MJ/KR) -with some falsetto vocals
- Hang Fire IV (MJ/KR) -first version with ‘doo doo doo’-
- Heaven I (MJ/KR) -early version with guide vocals
- Indian Girl I (MJ/KR) -unverified early version without
- Instrumental ( ) -unverified
- It's A Lie I (MJ/KR) -with harmonica intro
- It's A Lie II (MJ/KR) -with drums intro
- Jam ( ) -with Bobby Keys; unverified
- Let Me Go I (MJ/KR) -without sax
- Let Me Go II (MJ/KR) -’Emotional Rescue’-version
- Neighbours I (MJ/KR) -early version with guide vocals
- No Use In Crying I (MJ/KR/RW) -shorter early version
- No Use In Crying II (MJ/KR/RW) -longer early version
- No Use In Crying III (MJ/KR/RW) -similar to version II, but
- No Use In Crying IV (MJ/KR/RW) -edit of early version
- Send It To Me I (MJ/KR) -long version with vocals
- Summer Romance IV (MJ/KR) -more finished lyrics than III
- Summer Romance V (MJ/KR) -finished lyrics, but diff. vocal take, one guitar less
- Summer Romance VI (MJ/KR) -finished lyrics, plus bvoc; long version of VII
- “Time Flies” (MJ/KR) -title unsure, with Martin Gordon on bass
- We Had It All I (Troy Seals/Donny Fritts) -without harmonica
- We Had It All II (Troy Seals/Donny Fritts) -version I with harmonica
- We Had It All III (Troy Seals/Donny Fritts) -more finished version
- Where The Boys Go III (MJ/KR) -’Where The Boys All Go’-version, 1st version
with proper intro
- Where The Boys Go IV (MJ/KR) -different lead vocals, no girls choir, longer solo
- Where The Boys Go V (MJ/KR) -version used for thermo-promo

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 31, 2015 01:27

Thanks, Turner thumbs up

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