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Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

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Naturalust
These songwriting discussions sometimes remind me of conspiracy theories in that they often start with someone's ideology (usually concerning Keith or Mick's abilities) and then use small sound bites and observations to connect the dots to achieve whatever result fits their way of looking at things.

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

Follow up in regard to recording new songs... yes and no being that EXILE is not the follow up to STICKY FINGERS then? HA HA! That's hilarious!

The TRUE follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE is UNDERCOVER regarding new songs, new recordings. Nothing for TATTOO YOU was recorded with the band ie bottoms for TATTOO YOU. There were no TATTOO YOU recording sessions with the band, only for overdubs. For 2 years the band did not get together to record.

I think people don't know that. Or they assume they did.

Everything for ER was finished band wise in 1979, as well as what was used for TY - Heaven, Hang Fire, Neighbours and No Use In Crying. And if they'd not finished those it wouldn't matter because they started fresh (except for one song) for U.

It's all very funny.

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GasLightStreet
Black Limousine was started in 1973 at Musicland but was recorded again in 1977 for SOME GIRLS.

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GasLightStreet

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Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

Mick recorded the vocals for it with Bob Clearmountain. The "reggae" version featured Mick singing something similar, some babbling about never stop. It seems that was as far as it got. They cut the rock version and went back to the reggae version.

The song as you know it, the riff, is Keith. The song as you know it, the words, is Mick. Mick did the vocals in 1981. It was Start It Up but while Bob Clearmountain was mixing the song Mick was signing Start Me Up and Clearmountain thought it was better.


“Start It Up,” take two, was one of the tracks that Kimsey salvaged from the Some Girls sessions, and this time around, everything clicked: Jagger came up with words that matched Keith's powerful, off-kilter main riff, and three years after it was started, the song became a keeper. The final overdubs and mixing took place at the Power Station in New York: That thump and sheen on “Start Me Up” is partly the work of mixer Bob Clearmountain, who first worked with the Stones on the single mix of “Miss You.” It was on “Start Me Up” that he first used his famous “bathroom reverb” — pumping some drum and vocal tracks through a miked speaker in a small reverberant bathroom downstairs in the studio building. It was also in New York that Jagger changed the lyric from “start it up” to “start me up.”

“I remember he came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang it right in my ear,” Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing. He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah. That's great! Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’

[www.mixonline.com]

More on Start Me Up.

[www.soundonsound.com]

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Doxa

Well, I don't rememeber making such a straight statement, or that was not my intention, but yeah, my claim was actually that Jagger/Richards colloboration waekened due to Keith's contribution wasn't very inspirational for Mick any longer. That of Keith not evolving much from the musical presuppositions of EXILE ON MAIN STREET being one reason, while Mick seemingly wanted to move on. But other being that of his antenna's stopping functioning as good as earlier. Just remember what sort of stuff this guy had put on the table just a couple of years earlier... (sometimes I get the feeling that those who are strongly defending the mid 70's material do not really see or have forgotten how damn strong the material Keith could deliver in his peak years... "Gimme Shelter", "Street Fighting Man", "Ruby Tuesday". "Paint It Black", etc. etc. . Mick knew that man, and I am sure also missed him during the dark 70's. when all he was able to see was - this is a caracature! - a guy, if he turns up at all, trying desperately come up with just another variant of open tuning riffage he called a "song". "Hey Mick, finish this one!" "Oh thanks, mate..." )

But about that 'not evolving' idea... I think one way to understand Keith's musical evolution or path after EXILE is to see as writing one more songs into it. To make the 'Americana statement' of the album even more complete. I mean, his reggae, funk and rock-a-billy experiments adds there nicely, probably Waits stuff as well. But by contrast, I think Jagger wanted to get rid of the whole 'Americana' thing (especially when that sort of thing started to be out of date), to do something more 'modern' or 'relevant'. But it wasn't so easy - for some years he seemed to struggle how to do it - or even what to exactly to do. Probably because (a) the band was very strongly rooted to the bluesy rock sound they had created in those peak years, that it was hard to do something else convincingly; (b) he wasn't that sure what they should do now, how to adapt to the latest trends, or even into which ones, and in which degree. I think Jagger - and The Stones - didn't succeed until - and for the very last time - in SOME GIRLS, an album, which is not only a fresh coctail of something new and old, but being convincing, even 'relevant' as well.

Hmm.. if Keith's later ambitions - the ones which make him 'click' - could be defined as writing new pages into EXILE book, Mick's could be defined as writing anything else but not EXILE since that book is already written...

- Doxa

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GasLightStreet

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Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).

Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?

In this issue of Rolling Stone...

What don't you like about his solo albums?
Wimpy songs, wimpy performance, bad recording. That's about enough.

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Turner68

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GasLightStreet

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Turner68
Doxa, your discussion of the post-Some Girls work glosses over one very important song in particular: "Start Me Up". I've always assumed this is predominantly a Keith song, but do we know who wrote it, and equally importantly, turned it from a reggae to a rocker?

I think this is relevant to the discussion because the song was such a huge hit (certainly much bigger than Emotional Rescue or Undercover) and has had such staying power, if it did come from Keith, or Mick/Keith collaboration, it certainly would give cause for Mick to consider that the partnership still had some value.

Mick recorded the vocals for it with Bob Clearmountain. The "reggae" version featured Mick singing something similar, some babbling about never stop. It seems that was as far as it got. They cut the rock version and went back to the reggae version.

The song as you know it, the riff, is Keith. The song as you know it, the words, is Mick. Mick did the vocals in 1981. It was Start It Up but while Bob Clearmountain was mixing the song Mick was signing Start Me Up and Clearmountain thought it was better.


“Start It Up,” take two, was one of the tracks that Kimsey salvaged from the Some Girls sessions, and this time around, everything clicked: Jagger came up with words that matched Keith's powerful, off-kilter main riff, and three years after it was started, the song became a keeper. The final overdubs and mixing took place at the Power Station in New York: That thump and sheen on “Start Me Up” is partly the work of mixer Bob Clearmountain, who first worked with the Stones on the single mix of “Miss You.” It was on “Start Me Up” that he first used his famous “bathroom reverb” — pumping some drum and vocal tracks through a miked speaker in a small reverberant bathroom downstairs in the studio building. It was also in New York that Jagger changed the lyric from “start it up” to “start me up.”

“I remember he came in the control room and said, ‘What do you think of this?’ and he sang it right in my ear,” Clearmountain says with a laugh. “Up to that point, I never realized how loud he could sing. He was shouting over the track, and I was leaning backward, saying, ‘Yeah, yeah. That's great! Why don't you try doing it out in the studio, on the mic?!’

[www.mixonline.com]

More on Start Me Up.

[www.soundonsound.com]

Thank you. So this is, in fact, a great example of the songwriting partnership bearing tremendous fruit.

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Doxa
it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since

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DandelionPowderman
<it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since>

Of course he has

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Turner68

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DandelionPowderman
<it is a bit sad that Keef hasn't anything even close to it greatness ever since>

Of course he has

More egregious to me (and this is all in good fun of course) is the implication that Mick was the one bringing the non-Americana ideas to the table and Keith - with his reggae - was stuck back in the Exile sessions and Americana.. chuckle.

The more I think deeply about the question, thanks to Doxa's thought-provoking posts, the more I start to feel like the biggest issue is the singing and the lyrics. But I know we're not supposed to say that here ;-) and I do stand by my "equal responsibility" principle.

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GasLightStreet
Keith does his songs and Mick has mostly nothing to do with them. Two exceptions I can think of are Slipping Away and This Place Is Empty.

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Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?

Thanks for finally saying that this was just your opinion, because there are many fans who find the songwriting inpired for the SG, ER and TY sessions (the latter is mostly ER sessions, of course).

You didn't claim anything about 1971? When do you think Exile was recorded? That's exactly the year you said Keith stopped listening to new music and evolving.

You are putting words into my mouth...

But I really don't know what to think of that "there are many fans who think otherwise" point. You always seem to remind me of that. Of course there are, and of course I am only telling my point of view into things. People can agree or disagree.

But I need to clear up a few things. I don't claim anything categorical, but like almost always, I just try to catch some tendencies. I don't claim either that those Pathe Marconi sessions weren't "inspirational". Like I mentioned above, Jagger was extremely inspired especially during SOME GIRLS sessions, but that wasn't particularly due to Richards, or what he brought on the table (except, say, "Beast of Burden"). Or to put it other way, Richards wasn't that fond of Mick's desire to do a dance number or play those punk-inspired way too fast rockers. Jagger surely sounded inspirational in TATTOO YOU as well, but as we know, that album was exceptional in many ways, and he almost single-handidly finished it by himself. EMOTIONAL RESCUE seemingly was a pain of ass for him, as was UNDERCOVER as well. Because him and Keith seemed to fight about every detail about the album, both having a different vision about the direction of the band (Bill Wyman documents this well). It is telling that the strongest or at least most memorable songs Mick wrote for those two albums, both being first singles and hits - "Emotional Rescue" and "Undercover of The Night" - Keith had nothing to do with them (and Keith hasn't hesitated telling his opinion of them).

But let me remind, once again, I am not here judging the whole Stones output and its quality; I just try reconstruct Jagger's perspective on the things, concentrated on his and Keith's colloboration. I know you are a huge fan of those Pathe Marconi sessions, and I wholeheartidly agree that those were very productive sessions with some high-caliber material. And there were all that 'ancient art of weaving' and so on. But that doesn't mean that Mick was particularly happy how the things were evolving. For example, you might be the world biggest 'weaving' fan, but I am not that sure that Jagger is - or that exactly was very inspirational for him.

But the output was still rather strong, because especially during SOME GIRLS sessions Mick seemed to be in the height of his own creative powers. He really was pushing forwards with a self-esteem which would also give a birth to his solo career. Even Keith commented in LIFE, of course with his belittlening way, "Jagger had finally learned to write rock numbers" (or something to the effect). He really had strong personal visions of the musical direction of the band, but even tough it still worked nicely with Keith in SOME GIRLS, it was clear that Keith, after sobering up, wasn't sharing those visions as the years go by. In my opinion, that tension was one very big reason for Jagger to go solo. So to understand the "WW3", I think we should take a closer look at what happened during those Pathe Marconi sessions, of how the things evolved. We also know that Jagger has refused to work with that Pathe Marconi method with the Stones again. The closest might the ones for VOODOO LOUNGE, but seemingly Mick lost the interest during the process.

- Doxa

You're jumping elegantly over my main beef with your theories. Mick and Keith (because they have to be together in some way for making a consistent great output, imo) must have experienced this clash earlier on - way earlier than you describe here. BB and LIB were the only albums in the "golden period" where most songs were from their respective sessions (Yeah, I know YCAGWYW was from 1968), while SF and Exile relied heavily on earlier greatness.

Because it is still the inspiration you are theorizing about, right, not merely the outcome?

Well, then something must have happened between the glimmers between 1968 and 1969, and of course we know what that was...

When Keith was on his way out of the heaviest drug haze he certainly didn't lack inspiration (lots of books AND Keith tell us that). I haven't read anything about quarreling and collaboration problems from the 1977 Pathé Marconi sessions. The problems started on the 1979 sessions. Despite those problems, these sessions provided material for ER, a good part of TY, the Undercover singles and a good part of the SG bonus album (add the RCA sessions in between the two Marconi sessions as well).

Like I said in my first post, I think you have good points, but there is a lot of thinking after writing as well. I'm just merely bringing those points to the table here (and that's of course way easier to do after reading your post )

Mick's quote from an interview after the 1977 sessions says a lot, imo:
«Keith has written his first whole song since Happy, and it's great!»

Yeah, I might have a slightly different picture of Keith's functionality during early Pathe Marconi sessions, but over-all I don't find anything to disagree with.

It could be that something happened between Jagger and Richards already in 1968/69 which would affect to their colloboration, but if you bother to read through what I wrote to my my post above, I think that didn't really was such disastrous for their output since the guýs were still thinking alike of the music. That's why we still get such an incredible work as EXILE ON MAIN STREET. If the guys wouldn't have agreed on the main visions, that sort of cohesion the album has, wouldn't have been possible.

Oh yeah, a quote by Bill Wyman of the SOME GIRLS sessions (I know he has something different as well, but that is what he writes in ROLLING WITH THE STONES, p. 445):

"We recorded until the end of November - much of the time it was frustrating. Keith wouldn't turn up when we did, and when he wanted to work he'd call us in."

But thanks Dandie, like always, of your inspiring and insigthful comments. I always respect them (especially the critical ones)!

- Doxa

Bill also wrote this (about the 1977-sessions):

«We had such a great time in the studio that we never stopped really. We were going to be there for four or five weeks originally—middle of October till early December—and we were still there in February. We were enjoying ourselves, we were getting things done and getting off on new songs. We probably finished 12 or 13 songs, and then there’s a whole mass of demos and jams. We finished up with 96 reels of tape, where a normal band might use six for an album».

Cheers indeed!

The Anita-incident influenced Mick and Keith's relationship even more than we think, I guess - hence they started writing less together, and had to rely on the song-bank (with nuggets from earlier years) for SF and Exile. Most of SF isn't even from the 70s.

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Turner68

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Doxa

Well, I don't rememeber making such a straight statement, or that was not my intention, but yeah, my claim was actually that Jagger/Richards colloboration waekened due to Keith's contribution wasn't very inspirational for Mick any longer. That of Keith not evolving much from the musical presuppositions of EXILE ON MAIN STREET being one reason, while Mick seemingly wanted to move on. But other being that of his antenna's stopping functioning as good as earlier. Just remember what sort of stuff this guy had put on the table just a couple of years earlier... (sometimes I get the feeling that those who are strongly defending the mid 70's material do not really see or have forgotten how damn strong the material Keith could deliver in his peak years... "Gimme Shelter", "Street Fighting Man", "Ruby Tuesday". "Paint It Black", etc. etc. . Mick knew that man, and I am sure also missed him during the dark 70's. when all he was able to see was - this is a caracature! - a guy, if he turns up at all, trying desperately come up with just another variant of open tuning riffage he called a "song". "Hey Mick, finish this one!" "Oh thanks, mate..." )

But about that 'not evolving' idea... I think one way to understand Keith's musical evolution or path after EXILE is to see as writing one more songs into it. To make the 'Americana statement' of the album even more complete. I mean, his reggae, funk and rock-a-billy experiments adds there nicely, probably Waits stuff as well. But by contrast, I think Jagger wanted to get rid of the whole 'Americana' thing (especially when that sort of thing started to be out of date), to do something more 'modern' or 'relevant'. But it wasn't so easy - for some years he seemed to struggle how to do it - or even what to exactly to do. Probably because (a) the band was very strongly rooted to the bluesy rock sound they had created in those peak years, that it was hard to do something else convincingly; (b) he wasn't that sure what they should do now, how to adapt to the latest trends, or even into which ones, and in which degree. I think Jagger - and The Stones - didn't succeed until - and for the very last time - in SOME GIRLS, an album, which is not only a fresh coctail of something new and old, but being convincing, even 'relevant' as well.

Hmm.. if Keith's later ambitions - the ones which make him 'click' - could be defined as writing new pages into EXILE book, Mick's could be defined as writing anything else but not EXILE since that book is already written...

- Doxa

The statement I bolded above just doesn't hold up.

Reggae was new and cool in the 70s. It was not "Americana" and indeed Reggae did not develop in the United States. If Mick had been the one to bring Reggae into the Stones your post above would have made sense, but he didn't, Keith (and Ronnie I suppose) did.

Rock-a-billy, I'm not sure which Stones song you're referring to here, but it certainly could be considered "retro Americana," I'll grant that. (although interesting that some of the more successful british bands like the clash experimented with it in the late 70s.

Funk was new, also, and like Disco an extension of the R&B arc. So perhaps it kind of fits into your argument (although unlike Exile it was not a musical form from the past) However let's look at Mick....

Disco was indeed new and brought by Mick - but of course, it was in fact born in Philadelphia and New York city, and was a natural evolution of what was happening in R&B music in America.

It's just not valid to say that Keith wanted to pursue a nostalgic/American path linearly from EOMS, nor is it valid to say that Mick specifically wanted to avoid it. It's more valid to say the band was generally directionless and jumping from trend to trend post-EOMS (and all the way up to today.)

The Keith/Americana thing is something that became very explicit in 2015 with Crosseyed Heart. not in post-EOMS 1970s

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GasLightStreet

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DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

Well, that's fine - but to my ears those are great albums because they feature some nice Jagger-Richards songs as well as some that are solo songs, like All About You, Heaven and Miss You. All 4 of those LPs have inspiration on them.

Keith missing in action? Harghhhh. He's in excellent form on all 4 of those LPs, albeit UNDERCOVER is the actual follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE. His playing throughout U is excellent, especially on She Was Hot and Tie You Up.

Jagger the solo artist? That's the real issue.

The myth of EXILE is that it was recorded in France. So it goes. It might be easy to say it's when something was recorded, not released. But then with something like TATTOO YOU and EXILE, it may be heavier on when it was released since neither are outright "new" albums.

Yes and no, as many of the songs on TY are from the ER sessions.

Follow up in regard to recording new songs... yes and no being that EXILE is not the follow up to STICKY FINGERS then? HA HA! That's hilarious!

The TRUE follow up to EMOTIONAL RESCUE is UNDERCOVER regarding new songs, new recordings. Nothing for TATTOO YOU was recorded with the band ie bottoms for TATTOO YOU. There were no TATTOO YOU recording sessions with the band, only for overdubs. For 2 years the band did not get together to record.

I think people don't know that. Or they assume they did.

Everything for ER was finished band wise in 1979, as well as what was used for TY - Heaven, Hang Fire, Neighbours and No Use In Crying. And if they'd not finished those it wouldn't matter because they started fresh (except for one song) for U.

It's all very funny.

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DandelionPowderman
Yes. Posted here before. Zentgraf, I think. GasLightStreet has this down - he'll probably have it ready in a flash. I can't do it right now..