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Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 29, 2015 20:55

Keith praised Wandering Spirit, as far as I remember..

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 29, 2015 21:04

Quote
mr_dja
Note: I originally posted this in the Crosseyed Heart thread but realized later that it probably is more appropriate in this thread. Apologies if it seems like it has "just popped up out of nowhere"!

Quote
Doxa
Quote
mr_dja



I've heard Keith say that it's his job to inspire Mick.


I think you hit the nail here. The reason for the downhill for Stones music in quality and quantity for the last 35 years or so: Keith just doesn't inspire Mick any longer. I think the problem was obvious by the time of making EMOTIONAL RSECUE but it could be that the hailed EXILE was teh last time The Glimmer Twins had a creative respect towards each other - or Mick was actually paying attention into what Keith did,and being even excited about it.

Usually this is seen that the reason is that Mick and Keith had developed very different tastes for what they consider good music; Mick being a trend follower, and Keith a rootsman (which is to say: Keith creatively stopped to the musical premises of EXILE, Mick not). That partly is true, but the style or a genre of music is not the whole point: the question is has someone something to say, that is, can one form inspiring, great music from a given genre? If one digs blues or country that alone will not constitute great, authentic music - something the Stones actually did during their heyday (The Big Four), and excelled and completed in EXILE.

So if we consider this from Mick's point of view - not popular here - after EXILE or so Keith's music just weren't exciting for him - just repitive and seemingly going downhill in quality (and in quantity as well). And remember: Mick had seen what this man once was - how great, unique, fresh stuff he could have come up with. But he also saw and understood the change in creativity. As the 70's go further, it was clear that there were no any longer any gimmesheltesr, honkytonkwomens or streetfightingmans to be born. There were half-baked riffs saying the same thing over and again, the recording processes just taking longer and longer, when a certain right 'feel' was waited to be come, and the result of all that time, money and drugs wasted would be something as mind-blowing as "Dance Little Sister".

I don't think the music in CROSSEYED HEART means much to Jagger (or, like hoped here, "open his eyes"). I guess for him it is stuff he has seen Keith doing for decades (he probably knows this man musically better than anyone else). He once commented TALK IS CHEAP or MAIN OFFENDER by a telling remark that it sounds the same as the half-finished songs Keith does for the Stones. Probably he is just pleased that Keith get it out by himself and he doesn't need to bother himself with it...

It is no any wonder that their most fruitful colloboration of the last decades happens to be the one on which Keith made his contribution almost 40 years earlier - Jagger sounds surprisingly inspired in "Plundered My Soul", and probably put more effort into it than to any Keith song for ages.

So this was just some food for thought to those who see the artistic downhill of the Stones solely as a fault of Mick Jagger, and if Keith had more say on things, Mick would listen him more, etc the things would have been better or even so great again. Bullshit. The guy just stopped delivering the goods. It takes two to a tango..

- Doxa

Interesting that you give me credit for "hitting the nail on the head" with something I didn't even say. It's me paraphrasing Keith. Great job taking that line and using it as your basis to start yet another rant on how Keith "just stopped delivering the goods".

You apparently missed my line (right after the one you quoted as your starting point) "Imagine if Mick & Keith both would allow each other the time to inspire themselves". You can blame Keith all you want. That's your opinion and you're more than entitled to it. Presenting it as fact doesn't turn it into a fact. It's still just an opinion. Kind of like it's my opinion that, to be honest, the blame probably lies on all four of the Stones more than it does on any one of them.

You (and others) may want to say it's Keith's fault for not being able to deliver the goods. Someone else says it's Jagger's fault for not realizing that "half-baked riffs" and "half-finished songs" are potentially the starting points for the next classic song. Maybe it's Charlie's fault for not questioning why they're overdubbing onto Mick's demos and calling them Rolling Stones tracks. Maybe it's Ronnie's fault for not building a bridge between MJ & KR and forcing them to actually use the bridge from time to time.

You may be right. Possibly KR did stop delivering the goods. Did it ever cross your mind that it's also possible that MJ may have quit receiving the goods? I've seen plenty of houses where the mail or the daily paper still gets delivered long after the residents leave. Who's to say that one of those envelopes doesn't contain a winning contest notification? Just because the envelope is never opened doesn't mean it never contained a winning ticket.

Two to tango indeed.

Peace,
Mr DJA

PS -> Apologies to all for my participation in the hijacking of this thread. Unfortunately the side conversation has become more active than the original topic. I'll try to stay more on topic in the future.

This response is addressed towards Doxa's post:

Your timing of periods of greatness or downhill movement, Doxa, seems to evolve around mutual respect, associated with being able to create masterful Rolling Stones music or not. However, in some earlier discussions, I remember that you have agreed that the theme good Rolling Stones music does not necessarily go between ambitious song and music making or the lack of it, exclusively. You have been willing to acknowledge the characteristic "unambitious, but inspired" for songs and music as a second category for really good and strong Stones music. One would think that so did Mick Jagger.

And it was even you, Doxa, who considered already EXILE ON MAIN STREET to be a token of a tiredness with doing ambitious songs and music, not associated with Keith alone, but certainly(?) by both of them, whereas that it is what is more commonly thought about the (long) creative moment of GOATS HEAD SOUP, uniquely caught as such in that moment.

In the light of this, I wonder if your periodization as to gradual lessening of Mick's respect for Keith's inspiringness is placed in a much too early year.

Apart from this, the split in propensities, wanting to make music within the wide scope that had become Rolling Stones music, or wanting to challenge and expand even that scope, those propensities were for some time contributing for inspiring clashes that can be thought to have benefited the music. I wonder if not the two of them, Keith and Mick, may not themselves at times have thought so. However, even worse for Mick than to have Keith to contend with, or possibly complicating their creative disagreement, was when the increasingly conservative attitude with the fans and buying public towards innovation grew an obstacle.

My guess is that the musical tendency of CROSSEYED HEART does not inspire Mick. But it may persuade him of Keith's continued competence in the studio. In its time, however, my impression is that TALK IS CHEAP was an asset in making Mick believe in a continuation of their partnership, the main trouble remaining then was the attitudes of the listeners.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 29, 2015 21:37

This discussion suggests the Stones should have broken up years ago, and some here may believe that. It certainly goes to why the Stones don't record much and play old songs. If Mick Jagger can't take Keith Richards's "half-baked" songs and turn them into Rolling Stones songs, I would take the side that it's on him. It's what he used to do. Back in 1981, he took a half-baked riff and wrote Start Me Up. If he thinks that's too boring to do occasionally. then there is basically no reason for him to record with the band. Exile did feature several glorified jams that were not really finished songs, just "feels". Those of us who like Crosseyed Heart hear Rolling Stones music in it, something we haven't heard for a while.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 29, 2015 22:01

Quote
TeddyB1018
This discussion suggests the Stones should have broken up years ago, and some here may believe that. It certainly goes to why the Stones don't record much and play old songs. If Mick Jagger can't take Keith Richards's "half-baked" songs and turn them into Rolling Stones songs, I would take the side that it's on him. It's what he used to do. Back in 1981, he took a half-baked riff and wrote Start Me Up. If he thinks that's too boring to do occasionally. then there is basically no reason for him to record with the band. Exile did feature several glorified jams that were not really finished songs, just "feels". Those of us who like Crosseyed Heart hear Rolling Stones music in it, something we haven't heard for a while.

I agree with what you say about Crosseyed Heart.

I disagree with your assertion that Start Me Up is more than a half-baked riff. That is all it is - and I say that as someone who loves the tune. Being no more than a half-baked riff is what is genius about it - they took the riff and played around with the rhythms and the sound enough that it became a classic tune - the "prototypical", if you will, stones song. The lyrics certainly have nothing to do with how good the song is (or isn't). To me, it's the pinnacle of the "Roll" that Keith talks so much about.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: latebloomer ()
Date: October 29, 2015 22:08

Quote
TeddyB1018
This discussion suggests the Stones should have broken up years ago, and some here may believe that. It certainly goes to why the Stones don't record much and play old songs. If Mick Jagger can't take Keith Richards's "half-baked" songs and turn them into Rolling Stones songs, I would take the side that it's on him. It's what he used to do. Back in 1981, he took a half-baked riff and wrote Start Me Up. If he thinks that's too boring to do occasionally. then there is basically no reason for him to record with the band. Exile did feature several glorified jams that were not really finished songs, just "feels". Those of us who like Crosseyed Heart hear Rolling Stones music in it, something we haven't heard for a while.

Well put, Teddy. These days, Keith repeatedly says that he waits for Mick to come to him. Mick often says that he bores easily, or something to that effect. Given the history of their personal and professional relationship, I would guess that they are both reluctant to be combative now as they were in the past. That was when they struggled against each other and with each other to create the music. They have a truce now, which works well onstage, it's fairly neat and tidy. Creativity is not always so, it's usually messy. So maybe they have avoided working together, because, well...it's too much work and they might get mad at each other again. But, then again, maybe there's enough water under the bridge now for them to handle working in the studio together with both consideration and creativity. Let's hope so.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-29 22:12 by latebloomer.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 29, 2015 22:46

Good post, Teddy.

They would need to invest time in making a great album. All of them.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 29, 2015 23:02

Quote
Turner68
Quote
TeddyB1018
This discussion suggests the Stones should have broken up years ago, and some here may believe that. It certainly goes to why the Stones don't record much and play old songs. If Mick Jagger can't take Keith Richards's "half-baked" songs and turn them into Rolling Stones songs, I would take the side that it's on him. It's what he used to do. Back in 1981, he took a half-baked riff and wrote Start Me Up. If he thinks that's too boring to do occasionally. then there is basically no reason for him to record with the band. Exile did feature several glorified jams that were not really finished songs, just "feels". Those of us who like Crosseyed Heart hear Rolling Stones music in it, something we haven't heard for a while.

I agree with what you say about Crosseyed Heart.

I disagree with your assertion that Start Me Up is more than a half-baked riff. That is all it is - and I say that as someone who loves the tune. Being no more than a half-baked riff is what is genius about it - they took the riff and played around with the rhythms and the sound enough that it became a classic tune - the "prototypical", if you will, stones song. The lyrics certainly have nothing to do with how good the song is (or isn't). To me, it's the pinnacle of the "Roll" that Keith talks so much about.

I agree with what you're saying about Start Me Up. I was just saying that it was okay with Mick Jagger at the time to finish up such a song and that it was very successful.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 29, 2015 23:21

Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?


Hahaha, it will be hard to get that out of my head ! cool smiley
I'm a sucker for silly humor like that, whether you meant it to be funny or not.
My wife gives me a hard time when I refer to Walmart as Walfart, or K-Mart as K-Fart.
She tells me to "grow up and act like an adult", as she's holding in the laughter herself.
Oh well, we're just silly kids at heart....

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 29, 2015 23:22

Quote
Hairball
Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?


Hahaha, it will be hard to get that out of my head ! cool smiley
I'm a sucker for silly humor like that, whether you meant it to be funny or not.
My wife gives me a hard time when I refer to Walmart as Walfart, or K-Mart as K-Fart.
She tells me to "grow up and act like an adult", as she's holding in the laughter herself.
Oh well, we're just silly kids at heart....

Pearl Jam = Squirrel Jam

Bed, Bath, and Beyond = Bloodbath and Beyond.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GetYerAngie ()
Date: October 29, 2015 23:39

Quote
Hairball
Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?


Hahaha, it will be hard to get that out of my head ! cool smiley
I'm a sucker for silly humor like that, whether you meant it to be funny or not.
My wife gives me a hard time when I refer to Walmart as Walfart, or K-Mart as K-Fart.
She tells me to "grow up and act like an adult", as she's holding in the laughter herself.
Oh well, we're just silly kids at heart....

thumbs up

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: RipThisBone ()
Date: October 30, 2015 00:18

Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?


Hahaha, it will be hard to get that out of my head ! cool smiley
I'm a sucker for silly humor like that, whether you meant it to be funny or not.
My wife gives me a hard time when I refer to Walmart as Walfart, or K-Mart as K-Fart.
She tells me to "grow up and act like an adult", as she's holding in the laughter herself.
Oh well, we're just silly kids at heart....

thumbs up

thumbs upthumbs upthumbs up

Quote TeddyB: "Those of us who like Crosseyed Heart hear Rolling Stones music in it, something we haven't heard for a while".

I agree Crossdressed Fart has got more (Rolling Stones) "feeling" music compared to Mick's Souper Heady effort and the bonustracks of Exile DeLuxe and Some GirlsDeluxe, which also took some years to finish with new vocals and lyrics, guitar overdubs etc.

My top 5 of ROLLING STONES studio albums released after A BIGGER BANG:

1. SOME GIRLS DELUXE
2. I FEEL LIKE PLAYING
3. CROSSEYED HEART
4. EXILE DELUXE
5. SUPERHEAVY

...bubbling under: BOOGIE 4 STU

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 00:19

Quote
mr_dja
Quote
Turner68
Quote
mr_dja
Quote
Doxa
Quote
mr_dja

I didn't read Doxa's post the way you did. As I understand it, Doxa feels (incorrectly, IMO) that people are blaming Mick for the creative decline of the Stones and is saying that Mick and Keith bear equal responsibility. I agree with this, although it's not exactly earth-shattering to point out that the two creative forces in the band are both responsible, nor do i believe anyone really believes that mick is the sole reason the band has stopped being a creative force.

And you may be right with your reading of Doxa's post... It wouldn't be the first or last time that I've read something incorrectly! I agree with your post in so far as I think that things are a lot more gray than black and white as far as the accountability is concerned. Although some posts come across as pointing 'in one direction' only, you're probably also correct that no one is 100% on one side or the other.

The more I think about it, the more I wish Stu were still around to keep his three chord wonders/showers of shit in line. Instead of those silly WWJD bracelets that were so popular a few years back, I wonder if someone could get the Stones to all wear WWST (What Would Stu Think) bracelets in the future. Or maybe they could post big pictures of Brian, MT, Stu & Bill on the wall of the studio to remind them that some of their previous methods of working produced (arguably) better results than some of the methods they're using now.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Turner68 interpreted my point right. I just wanted open up the case from Mick's perspective, since we do know the other perspective so damn well - that's something we can daily read here, probably due to the Keith euphoria at the moment. Just wanted to balance the things a bit. Jagger's "faults" seem to be so easily to be pointed at, but not Keith's responsibility in the case.

Like I replied to one comment, I don't really 'blame' anyone for their creative downhill. Actually I find the whole idea of 'blaming' someone in a case like this an odd one (the point is not to judge, but to understand certain developments). There is no one to blame. One cannot force creativity, or make two people 'click' if they don't. No one can lock up these two guys inside the kitchen, if they, or either of them, don't want to. No one can force them to make records, spending months in the studio to get the right take or whatever, if they don't want to. These are grown up men, with the minds of their own.

The next thing to is to ask why it is so. If it is up to Jagger, like is usually suggested (and I think rightly), we could address the question simply: why does Jagger not want to do that? Why he does not seem to be interested in colloborating with Keith seriouly for a long time now?

That was the question in my mind when I made my post. I haven't seen anyone really reflecting that question very much lately - trying to understand Jagger's motives and actions (at least with some kind of empathy).

To summarize, I think the cruel fact is that Jagger lost years ago the faith that those kitchen deals or endless recording sessions could produce any quality stuff. It once did, but as a pragmatic man, come to the conclusion that it reached a point that the results were not any longer worth the effort. Suddenly it wasn't 1965 or 1971 aor even 1977 any longer, and he moved on. And this already happened when making records still mattered in the music business.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 00:33 by Doxa.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Turner68 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 00:41

the answer seems so clear. a lot of friendships and partnerships have been ruined by drug addiction.

the "sober" one, after years of cleaning up/wiping away/taking care of the (metaphorical and in come cases literal) vomit, tears, and fines finally decides enough is enough.

sometimes the addict recovers and begs for reconciliation, but having burnt by so many second, third, fourth, and fifth chances the sober one just never feels the same about it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 00:44 by Turner68.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 00:45

Or it could be something simple like Jagger is sick of dealing with Keith's second hand smoke and tries to minimize his exposure to it. LOL

Some good points on either side of the discussion here. I tend to just think that it possibly a combination of them being more confident about and attached to their own ideas as mature and somewhat egotistical songwriters, combined with a lack of trust of each other to actually improve on them. I could further speculate about the equality of power they had when there were people like Brian and Taylor in the band that kind of kept them on an equal footing against all comers in the power struggle game, something sort of lost with Ronnie in the band as a quite obvious "junior" partner. This may have resulted in the power struggle being directly shifted to Keith vs Mick, especially after Keith cleaned up from heroin addiction. It's just an idea I'm throwing out there, not trying to insinuate this is actually the case. So many factors involved with creative collaborations it's hard to make accurate assumptions about what really happened. And it's doubtful we will ever hear Keith and Mick talk about it because that involves admitting something is wrong and they are more likely to blame factors other that themselves for their results

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 01:00

The "junior partner" wrote songs for BAB, SG, ER, TY, Undercover and DW. + IORR, of course.

Three of those albums were among their most successful albums sales-wise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 01:05 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 01:05

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Also, Doxa's post is (albeit excellently subtle) a slap in the face to all of us who love SG, ER, TY and Undercover. 

He's got a point, though, but he should know that A LOT of the material on SF and Exile is from 1968-1970. So, if the inspiration wore thin it started even earlier than after the Exile sessions. 

eye popping smiley

Where the hell you get the idea of that "slap". My post had nothing to do with with judging the quality of those albums nor the people who love them. Please elloborate. (For example, SOME GIRLS is a great album, but its greatness is not based on Mick being inspired by Keith - its great because Mick was inspired by the latest trends of the day, and used the band to fulfill his ideas, and thankfully, Keith backed him up, or was not standing too much on the way, though not totally without some doubt - by then, the dynamism between The Twins was seemingly different compared to, say, LET IT BLEED, but it still worked).

Neither I don't understand the second paragraph. Yeah, I should know, and believe me, I also happen to know that a lot of material for those two albums are from previous years. But I fail to grasp what that has to do with the stuff I wrote.

- Doxa

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 01:11

You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 01:21

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The "junior partner" wrote songs for BAB, SG, ER, TY, Undercover and DW. + IORR, of course.

Three of those albums were among their most successful albums sales-wise.

Of course he did, but there is no doubt he assumes a limited (junior) role in song craft monopoly that is Jagger/Richards. And I don't think there is much correlation between Ronnie's writing contributions and successful album sales.

But, I'd love to see him create some great stuff, receive proper credit for it. That along with his greatly improved performances of the last few years would really be a nice way to cap off his career as a Stone. I almost get the feeling Mick and Keith would be very open to it on what could be their last record. On the other hand I think Ronnie probably devotes more creative time to painting, has become comfortable letting Keith and Mick write the songs and probably doesn't have near the new ideas to bring to the table as Keith and Mick will when the time comes. I guess we'll see.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 01:31

Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?

OMG. That is hilarious, you haven't been hanging around Mick lately have you? This will indeed be a a tough one to forget, you have probably just unwittingly armed the detractors to Keith's record with an incredible punchline. I can imagine some Stones employee that monitors iorr, printing this one off and faxing it to Mick and him having a good belly laugh, regardless of what he thinks of the record. Probably a good thing you posted that here rather that the CH thread. grinning smiley

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 01:32

Quote
DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?confused smiley

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 01:55

Quote
DandelionPowderman
The "junior partner" wrote songs for BAB, SG, ER, TY, Undercover and DW. + IORR, of course.

Three of those albums were among their most successful albums sales-wise.

Now, that was a helluva argument for Ronnie!

But since you brought that up, and we are free to speculate - could it be that one reason why they (Mick, that is) chose "junior partner" to the job was that of having a bit help at the the song-writing department, which seemingly wasn't so productive any longer? Had he written the fisrt single and title song of their last album already (doing the Keef part rather well there... and probably convincing Mick)...

- Doxa

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 30, 2015 02:17

Similar to the Lennon/McCartney writing partnership imploding while they were still a band, the same can be said about the Jagger/Richards partnership which has been pretty much non-existent for years - at least as far as quality material goes. Unfortunately for the Beatles, the implosion resulted in them parting ways, while somehow Mick and Keith have stuck it out no matter what the circumstances and inferior results that are produced. Can't really blame one without looking closely at the other, but there are certain things that will have some fans side with Mick while others will side with Keith.
As has been said it takes two to tango, and if nothing else we can be thankful the Stones are still a 'band' that tours.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Naturalust ()
Date: October 30, 2015 02:46

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The "junior partner" wrote songs for BAB, SG, ER, TY, Undercover and DW. + IORR, of course.

Three of those albums were among their most successful albums sales-wise.

Now, that was a helluva argument for Ronnie!

But since you brought that up, and we are free to speculate - could it be that one reason why they (Mick, that is) chose "junior partner" to the job was that of having a bit help at the the song-writing department, which seemingly wasn't so productive any longer? Had he written the fisrt single and title song of their last album already (doing the Keef part rather well there... and probably convincing Mick)...

- Doxa

Indeed it's hard to imagine Ronnie's roll in the creation of IORR didn't at least highly influence the Glimmers decision to bring him on board as a paid hand and second guitarist. Too bad he never contributed anything close to as good as that one in the following years, IMO. But I doubt they ever truly considered him as a serious songwriting partner, mainly because he wasn't even given an equal partnership in the band till years later and I doubt they had any personal feelings that own abilities to create songs was diminishing.

But I may be wrong, you can't underestimate just how messed up Keith was at that point due to his addictions and who knows what Jagger was truly thinking about what effect that might have on Keith's creativity. My guess is that while making it more difficult to work with him, heroin addiction was still somewhat seen as a tool to enhance creativity and there was plenty of history of Keith being able to create while on those drugs. Also, according to Jerry Hall, Mick himself was dabbling with heroin in the mid 70's. Perhaps he was trying to find Keith's secret weapon. LOL

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 05:09

Quote
Doxa
Quote
mr_dja
Quote
Turner68
Quote
mr_dja
Quote
Doxa
Quote
mr_dja

I didn't read Doxa's post the way you did. As I understand it, Doxa feels (incorrectly, IMO) that people are blaming Mick for the creative decline of the Stones and is saying that Mick and Keith bear equal responsibility. I agree with this, although it's not exactly earth-shattering to point out that the two creative forces in the band are both responsible, nor do i believe anyone really believes that mick is the sole reason the band has stopped being a creative force.

And you may be right with your reading of Doxa's post... It wouldn't be the first or last time that I've read something incorrectly! I agree with your post in so far as I think that things are a lot more gray than black and white as far as the accountability is concerned. Although some posts come across as pointing 'in one direction' only, you're probably also correct that no one is 100% on one side or the other.

The more I think about it, the more I wish Stu were still around to keep his three chord wonders/showers of shit in line. Instead of those silly WWJD bracelets that were so popular a few years back, I wonder if someone could get the Stones to all wear WWST (What Would Stu Think) bracelets in the future. Or maybe they could post big pictures of Brian, MT, Stu & Bill on the wall of the studio to remind them that some of their previous methods of working produced (arguably) better results than some of the methods they're using now.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Turner68 interpreted my point right. I just wanted open up the case from Mick's perspective, since we do know the other perspective so damn well - that's something we can daily read here, probably due to the Keith euphoria at the moment. Just wanted to balance the things a bit. Jagger's "faults" seem to be so easily to be pointed at, but not Keith's responsibility in the case.

Like I replied to one comment, I don't really 'blame' anyone for their creative downhill. Actually I find the whole idea of 'blaming' someone in a case like this an odd one (the point is not to judge, but to understand certain developments). There is no one to blame. One cannot force creativity, or make two people 'click' if they don't. No one can lock up these two guys inside the kitchen, if they, or either of them, don't want to. No one can force them to make records, spending months in the studio to get the right take or whatever, if they don't want to. These are grown up men, with the minds of their own.

The next thing to is to ask why it is so. If it is up to Jagger, like is usually suggested (and I think rightly), we could address the question simply: why does Jagger not want to do that? Why he does not seem to be interested in colloborating with Keith seriouly for a long time now?

That was the question in my mind when I made my post. I haven't seen anyone really reflecting that question very much lately - trying to understand Jagger's motives and actions (at least with some kind of empathy).

To summarize, I think the cruel fact is that Jagger lost years ago the faith that those kitchen deals or endless recording sessions could produce any quality stuff. It once did, but as a pragmatic man, come to the conclusion that it reached a point that the results were not any longer worth the effort. Suddenly it wasn't 1965 or 1971 aor even 1977 any longer, and he moved on. And this already happened when making records still mattered in the music business.

- Doxa

It doesn't turn him on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 05:09 by TeddyB1018.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Date: October 30, 2015 08:51

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?confused smiley

Thanks for finally saying that this was just your opinion, because there are many fans who find the songwriting inpired for the SG, ER and TY sessions (the latter is mostly ER sessions, of course). Many even find more inspired songs on GHS and IORR that are better than the songs on "the golden four".

You didn't claim anything about 1971? When do you think Exile was recorded? That's exactly the year you said Keith stopped listening to new music and evolving.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: TeddyB1018 ()
Date: October 30, 2015 09:14

In 1977 or 1978 Keith wrote a "half-baked" song called Beast of Burden, with music, a title, and a few words, then gave it to his songwriting partner to finish. They produced one of my five or so favorite records. KR's first solo album had several songs that an invested Mick Jagger could have worked with, had they been speaking. There were sketches for Undercover and Dirty Work that were promising. I don't think Mick's work on Keith's material since the early 80's has been very effective. I think his lyric writing has flattened out, lost its gracefulness. It's obvious he has his reasons, and that different sorts of music interest him. Keith and Ronnie devised a more slashing sort of guitar style on Dirty Work that carried through after that, not so self-quoting, but it didn't lead to great songs. He also brought funk. reggae, and rockabilly to the table, all after Exile. I'm sure Mick Jagger prefers his own Matt Clifford demos to Keith's sketches, and that's why their records are what they are. Mick likes his own stuff. There was a time when Mick coaxed the best out of Keith, or Keith felt comfortable enough to run things, as many of their past producers have suggested. That has been taken away, by drugs, by personal differences, by commercial concerns. Of course Mick has a legit point of view. What he doesn't have is very much good recording work to show for it over the past 30 years. If what he was brining to the table without Keith, in the Stones or solo, showed he could come up with the goods, things would be different. For me, he hasn't. This disappoints me because I don't get to hear Mick Jagger at his best, nor Keith's work served as well as it used to be. But life goes on.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: BreakingBlues ()
Date: October 30, 2015 09:24

Quote
TeddyB1018
In 1977 or 1978 Keith wrote a "half-baked" song called Beast of Burden, with music, a title, and a few words, then gave it to his songwriting partner to finish. They produced one of my five or so favorite records. KR's first solo album had several songs that an invested Mick Jagger could have worked with, had they been speaking. There were sketches for Undercover and Dirty Work that were promising. I don't think Mick's work on Keith's material since the early 80's has been very effective. I think his lyric writing has flattened out, lost its gracefulness. It's obvious he has his reasons, and that different sorts of music interest him. Keith and Ronnie devised a more slashing sort of guitar style on Dirty Work that carried through after that, not so self-quoting, but it didn't lead to great songs. He also brought funk. reggae, and rockabilly to the table, all after Exile. I'm sure Mick Jagger prefers his own Matt Clifford demos to Keith's sketches, and that's why their records are what they are. Mick likes his own stuff. There was a time when Mick coaxed the best out of Keith, or Keith felt comfortable enough to run things, as many of their past producers have suggested. That has been taken away, by drugs, by personal differences, by commercial concerns. Of course Mick has a legit point of view. What he doesn't have is very much good recording work to show for it over the past 30 years. If what he was brining to the table without Keith, in the Stones or solo, showed he could come up with the goods, things would be different. For me, he hasn't. This disappoints me because I don't get to hear Mick Jagger at his best, nor Keith's work served as well as it used to be. But life goes on.

Said pretty much perfectly. +1 thumbs up

For me, though, neither Glimmer is at their best without the other. But I'll
let Green Lady say it better...

"I hope you didn't record any of this""No I didn't"

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 30, 2015 10:12

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?confused smiley

Thanks for finally saying that this was just your opinion, because there are many fans who find the songwriting inpired for the SG, ER and TY sessions (the latter is mostly ER sessions, of course).

You didn't claim anything about 1971? When do you think Exile was recorded? That's exactly the year you said Keith stopped listening to new music and evolving.

You are putting words into my mouth...

But I really don't know what to think of that "there are many fans who think otherwise" point. You always seem to remind me of that. Of course there are, and of course I am only telling my point of view into things. People can agree or disagree.

But I need to clear up a few things. I don't claim anything categorical, but like almost always, I just try to catch some tendencies. I don't claim either that those Pathe Marconi sessions weren't "inspirational". Like I mentioned above, Jagger was extremely inspired especially during SOME GIRLS sessions, but that wasn't particularly due to Richards, or what he brought on the table (except, say, "Beast of Burden"). Or to put it other way, Richards wasn't that fond of Mick's desire to do a dance number or play those punk-inspired way too fast rockers. Jagger surely sounded inspirational in TATTOO YOU as well, but as we know, that album was exceptional in many ways, and he almost single-handidly finished it by himself. EMOTIONAL RESCUE seemingly was a pain of ass for him, as was UNDERCOVER as well. Because him and Keith seemed to fight about every detail about the album, both having a different vision about the direction of the band (Bill Wyman documents this well). It is telling that the strongest or at least most memorable songs Mick wrote for those two albums, both being first singles and hits - "Emotional Rescue" and "Undercover of The Night" - Keith had nothing to do with them (and Keith hasn't hesitated telling his opinion of them).

But let me remind, once again, I am not here judging the whole Stones output and its quality; I just try reconstruct Jagger's perspective on the things, concentrated on his and Keith's colloboration. I know you are a huge fan of those Pathe Marconi sessions, and I wholeheartidly agree that those were very productive sessions with some high-caliber material. And there were all that 'ancient art of weaving' and so on. But that doesn't mean that Mick was particularly happy how the things were evolving. For example, you might be the world biggest 'weaving' fan, but I am not that sure that Jagger is - or that exactly was very inspirational for him.

But the output was still rather strong, because especially during SOME GIRLS sessions Mick seemed to be in the height of his own creative powers. He really was pushing forwards with a self-esteem which would also give a birth to his solo career. Even Keith commented in LIFE, of course with his belittlening way, "Jagger had finally learned to write rock numbers" (or something to the effect). He really had strong personal visions of the musical direction of the band, but even tough it still worked nicely with Keith in SOME GIRLS, it was clear that Keith, after sobering up, wasn't sharing those visions as the years go by. In my opinion, that tension was one very big reason for Jagger to go solo. So to understand the "WW3", I think we should take a closer look at what happened during those Pathe Marconi sessions, of how the things evolved. We also know that Jagger has refused to work with that Pathe Marconi method with the Stones again. The closest might the ones for VOODOO LOUNGE, but seemingly Mick lost the interest during the process.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-30 10:20 by Doxa.

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GetYerAngie ()
Date: October 30, 2015 10:18

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
You are implying that Mick was tired of increasingly uninspired half baked riffs from Keith, and you say that Keith stopped evolving by Exile.

I can't interpret it differently than you meaning the material from the mid-70s was poorer because of what Keith brought to the table. I disagree here, obviously, as I love that material.

The second paragraph: How do you know it wasn't poorer in 1971 already, as they had to draw rather heavily on songs from 1968-1970 for SF and Exile?

Well, I do have the extraordinary opinion that albums like GOATS HEAD SOUP, IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL, BLACK AND BLUE, EMOTIONAL RSECUE, UNDERCOVER, even SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU are not exactly equal in quality compared to BEGAARS BANQUET, LET IT BLEED, STICKY FINGERS and EXILE ON MAIN STREET. So that radical claim offends someone? Or the obervation that that something might had happened with Keith's creativity after the Big Four?

I didn't claim anything about 1971. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the stuff is if we are interested in Jagger's contribution. He sounds damn inspired in EXILE, and as far as I understand most of the stuff - in which Mick's contribution is crucial - was finished in 1971. bUt still I don't understand why this little detail has any relvance for teh points in my post?confused smiley

Thanks for finally saying that this was just your opinion, because there are many fans who find the songwriting inpired for the SG, ER and TY sessions (the latter is mostly ER sessions, of course).

You didn't claim anything about 1971? When do you think Exile was recorded? That's exactly the year you said Keith stopped listening to new music and evolving.

You are putting words into my mouth...

But I really don't know what to think of that "there are many fans who think otherwise" point. You always seem to remind me of that. Of course there are, and of course I am only telling my point of view into things. People can agree or disagree.

But I need to clear up a few things. I don't claim anything categorical, but like almost always, I just try to catch some tendencies. I don't claim either that those Pathe Marconi sessions weren't "inspirational". Like I mentioned above, Jagger was extremely inspired especially during SOME GIRLS sessions, but that wasn't particularly due to Richards, or what he brought on the table (except, say, "Beast of Burden"). Or to put it other way, Richards wasn't that fond of Mick's desire to do a dance number or play those punk-inspired way too fast rockers. Jagger surely sounded inspirational in TATTOO YOU as well, but as we know, that album was exceptional in many ways, and he almost single-handidly finished it by himself. EMOTIONAL RESCUE seemingly was a pain of ass for him, as was UNDERCOVER as well. Because him and Keith seemed to fight about every detail about the album, both having a different vision about the direction of the band (Bill Wyman documents this well). It is telling that the strongest or at least most memorable songs Mick wrote for those two albums, both being first singles and hits - "Emotional Rescue" and "Undercover of The Night" - Keith had nothing to do with them (and Keith hasn't hesitated telling his opinion of them).

But let me remind, once again, I am not here judging the whole Stones output and its quality; I just try reconstruct Jagger's perspective on the things, concentrated on his and Keith's colloboration. I know you are a huge fan of those Pathe Marconi sessions, and I wholeheartidly agree that those were very productive sessions with some high-caliber material. And there were all that 'ancient art of weaving' and so on. But that doesn't mean that Mick was particularly happy how the things were evolving. For example, you might be the world biggest 'weaving' fun, but I am not that sure that Jagger is - or that exactly was very inspirational for him.

But the output was still rather strong, because especially during SOME GIRLS sessions Mick seemed to be in the height of his own creative powers. He really was pushing forwards with a self-esteem which would also give a birth to his solo career. Even Keith commented in LIFE, of course with his belittlening way, "Jagger had finally learned to write rock numbers" (or something to the effect). He really had strong personal visions of the musical direction of the band, but even tough it still worked nicely with Keith in SOME GIRLS, it was clear that Keith, after sobering up, wasn't sharing those visions as the years go by. In my opinion, that tension was one very big reason for Jagger to go solo. So to understand the "WW3", I think we should take a closer look at what happened during those Pathe Marconi sessions, of how the things evolved. We also know that Jagger has refused to work with that Pathe Marconi method with the Stones again. The closest might the ones for VOODOO LOUNGE, but seemingly Mick lost the interest during the process.

- Doxa
+1

Re: Keith Richards: New Rolling Stones Record Coming Next Year
Posted by: GetYerAngie ()
Date: October 30, 2015 10:20

Quote
Naturalust
Quote
GetYerAngie
Quote
Hairball
Keith has made clear that ALL of Micks solo albums/projects mean very little to him, if anything at all (see GODDESS for example).


Is that really to be believed? Keith's way of bashing Goddess (his "funny" Dogshit in the doorway-thing) just doesn't sound like no interest or objectivity at all winking smiley . Could anyone imagine Jagger bashing CH punning like that, calling it undeservedly Crossdressed Fart in public or something?

OMG. That is hilarious, you haven't been hanging around Mick lately have you? This will indeed be a a tough one to forget, you have probably just unwittingly armed the detractors to Keith's record with an incredible punchline. I can imagine some Stones employee that monitors iorr, printing this one off and faxing it to Mick and him having a good belly laugh, regardless of what he thinks of the record. Probably a good thing you posted that here rather that the CH thread. grinning smiley
cool smiley

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