If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

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DandelionPowderman
I doubt you'll be happy if a Nashville hack added a guitar track on a song you had written, claiming 50 percent of the songwriting credit..

Especially when there´s already another hack who gets 50 percent anyway even when his contribution is zero

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Captainchaos
[www.youtube.com]

hear a vtenuous bit of Taylor influence in this?

soooo.... you listen yeah or rehash the same old same old wood taylor, writing credit etc yaaaawwwwwwn nothing new to hear

check the link out, interested what you all think

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wonderboy
If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

If...

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DandelionPowderman
It's time to face that ALL the guitarists in the Stones have been vital and important for the band – in its different stages.

The fact that one prefers one of the guitarists shouldn't overshadow the others' importance, imo.

We've got the Brian years, the lovely 1969-1973 Taylor years, the weaving between 1977-1983, the comeback years 1989-2007 and the greatest hits years 2012-present.

It could be worse...

Very well put!

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

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DandelionPowderman

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman
Angie, Coming Down Again and Star Star were not substantial?

IMO, the guitar playing was excellent on those tracks, and they were among the best ones on the album.

Keith plays the first short solo + the rhythm guitar on TWFNO.

I have only heard about Mick and Taylor developed some songs Mick had written together, not that they were a writing team. I doubt that they were.

Is that not a writing team? At least that's the definition in Nashville!

"Some songs Mick had written", hence it's arranging.

I doubt you'll be happy if a Nashville hack added a guitar track on a song you had written, claiming 50 percent of the songwriting credit..

Except for the fact that Jagger has said Taylor gave him melodies to bounce off of.

Live, yes.

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wonderboy
If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

You confuse two very different things: The Jagger/Richards copyright is a contractual thing, just like Lennon/McCartney - it's a songwriting partnership. No matter how much the other partner is actually involved in writing a song for the Stones, it has to be a Jagger/Richards copyright each and every time - that's the deal between them.

No such legal partnership ever existed between Taylor and other band members, so it all depends if Taylor was actually involved in the writing process of a song. In case Jagger introduced the basic song (chords/lyrics) to the band (on guitar, piano or whatever), the band recorded it and Taylor played the most beautiful solo on top of it, it's still a Jagger/Richards song - adding to the arrangement does not count in copyright terms. But in case he added or changed the basic chords of a rough Jagger sketch of the song, even helped developing the main vocal melody or lyrics, it's not arranging, it's in fact songwriting in this case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-29 08:58 by alimente.

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alimente

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wonderboy
If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

You confuse two very different things: The Jagger/Richards copyright is a contractual thing, just like Lennon/McCartney - it's a songwriting partnership. No matter how much the other partner is actually involved in writing a song for the Stones, it has to be a Jagger/Richards copyright each and every time - that's the deal between them.

No such legal partnership ever existed between Taylor and other band members, so it all depends if Taylor was actually involved in the writing process of a song. In case Jagger introduced the basic song (chords/lyrics) to the band (on guitar, piano or whatever), the band recorded it and Taylor played the most beautiful solo on top of it, it's still a Jagger/Richards song - adding to the arrangement does not count in copyright terms. But in case he added or changed the basic chords of a rough Jagger sketch of the song, even helped developing the main vocal melody or lyrics, it's not arranging, it's in fact songwriting in this case.

And he said that happened twice, if memory serves. On Moonlight Mile (the riff with the strings – the very same riff Keith also claimed having written earlier) and on Till The Next Goodbye (I don't know what he contributed there, but I suspect it to be the spanish-sounding licks in the choruses).

On other occasions Taylor has said that his contributions were important for the song turning out to be great (like with TWFNO). However, TWFNO would have remained TWFNO also without his contributions, just different. He surely did an excellent job enhancing it musically. But that's not the same as writing.

Bafflingly, the first time he covered TWFNO (the accoustic version) he ignored his own contributions and made a different arrangement – it was cool in its own right, imo.

The Jagger quote about Taylor giving him melodies to bounce off was about live playing. Taylor is a melodic player, and he creates small or extended melodies that fit beautifully to already written songs – just like Sonny Rollins did on Slave and Waiting On A Friend.

A God-given ability, surely, but it is indeed easier than writing a song, because you already have a vehicle running for you to express yourself on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-29 10:26 by DandelionPowderman.

These contributions are all guesses until he actually says what he contributed. From what I remember is he helped come up with chord changes for various songs. Jagger has even said that. Just because he didn't play a part doesn't mean he didn't have a hand in constructing it. "Hey, why don't you go to a Bmaj7 instead of B?" These changes totally affect the outcome of a song.

He should change the outcome of the song, he was their guitarist! Otherwise, his contribution would be worthless.

Suggesting a maj7 instead of a straight chord is not writing the song, though, it's arranging.

No, arranging is which instrument is playing which part. Changing a chord is absolutely writing a song.

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DandelionPowderman

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alimente

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wonderboy
If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

You confuse two very different things: The Jagger/Richards copyright is a contractual thing, just like Lennon/McCartney - it's a songwriting partnership. No matter how much the other partner is actually involved in writing a song for the Stones, it has to be a Jagger/Richards copyright each and every time - that's the deal between them.

No such legal partnership ever existed between Taylor and other band members, so it all depends if Taylor was actually involved in the writing process of a song. In case Jagger introduced the basic song (chords/lyrics) to the band (on guitar, piano or whatever), the band recorded it and Taylor played the most beautiful solo on top of it, it's still a Jagger/Richards song - adding to the arrangement does not count in copyright terms. But in case he added or changed the basic chords of a rough Jagger sketch of the song, even helped developing the main vocal melody or lyrics, it's not arranging, it's in fact songwriting in this case.

On Moonlight Mile (the riff with the strings – the very same riff Keith also claimed having written earlier)

So you see, both MT and KR 'claim' they wrote the same riff. I don't think this bodes well for Taylor ever getting credit for it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-29 22:10 by nightskyman.

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TravelinMan
No, arranging is which instrument is playing which part. Changing a chord is absolutely writing a song.

Question 1:
Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Goode uses the chords Bb, Eb & F. If I were to record it using A, D & E (changed the chords) would you say I should get a writing credit or that I arranged it in a lower key?

Question 2:
Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Goode uses the chords Bb, Eb & F. If I were to record it in a bluesy style, slowing it down, over a shuffle beat & using Bb7, Eb7 & F7 (changed the chords) would you say I should get a writing credit or that I rearranged it?

Note: I'm generally inclined to disagree with your statement that "Changing a chord is absolutely writing a song".

Based on your theory, Bobby Bland (or one of his studio musicians) should have taken a writers credit for Stormy Monday (that's where the Allman Brothers version originated). Neither Bland nor the Allmans (who slightly altered Bland's version) took credit for writing the song, they knew that T-Bone Walker wrote it even if they did significantly rearrange the song.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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nightskyman

Quote
DandelionPowderman

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alimente

Quote
wonderboy
If Jagger brought a riff into the studio and Taylor turned it into Time Waits for No One, then he should absolutely get a songwriting credit.
Because if he had done the same and Keith made some suggestions, then it would be a Jagger-Richards composition.
That's how Mick and Keith generally work -- one has an idea, the other finishes it off and they each get credit, no matter who did the most work. Or even if they did no work.
I say that because there are some songs in that Taylor seems to have played a key role and the Stones never again came up with that type of song after he left.

You confuse two very different things: The Jagger/Richards copyright is a contractual thing, just like Lennon/McCartney - it's a songwriting partnership. No matter how much the other partner is actually involved in writing a song for the Stones, it has to be a Jagger/Richards copyright each and every time - that's the deal between them.

No such legal partnership ever existed between Taylor and other band members, so it all depends if Taylor was actually involved in the writing process of a song. In case Jagger introduced the basic song (chords/lyrics) to the band (on guitar, piano or whatever), the band recorded it and Taylor played the most beautiful solo on top of it, it's still a Jagger/Richards song - adding to the arrangement does not count in copyright terms. But in case he added or changed the basic chords of a rough Jagger sketch of the song, even helped developing the main vocal melody or lyrics, it's not arranging, it's in fact songwriting in this case.

On Moonlight Mile (the riff with the strings – the very same riff Keith also claimed having written earlier)

So you see, both MT and KR 'claim' they wrote the same riff. I don't think this bodes well for Taylor ever getting credit for it.

No, they didn't. Taylor said he suggested the strings, but called that "wrote that part".

Keith said he had the riff down before Jagger wrote MM. In the same quote, Taylor said that Jagger came with a MM that he was finished writing.

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mr_dja

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TravelinMan
No, arranging is which instrument is playing which part. Changing a chord is absolutely writing a song.

Question 1:
Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Goode uses the chords Bb, Eb & F. If I were to record it using A, D & E (changed the chords) would you say I should get a writing credit or that I arranged it in a lower key?

Question 2:
Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Goode uses the chords Bb, Eb & F. If I were to record it in a bluesy style, slowing it down, over a shuffle beat & using Bb7, Eb7 & F7 (changed the chords) would you say I should get a writing credit or that I rearranged it?

Note: I'm generally inclined to disagree with your statement that "Changing a chord is absolutely writing a song".

Based on your theory, Bobby Bland (or one of his studio musicians) should have taken a writers credit for Stormy Monday (that's where the Allman Brothers version originated). Neither Bland nor the Allmans (who slightly altered Bland's version) took credit for writing the song, they knew that T-Bone Walker wrote it even if they did significantly rearrange the song.

Peace,
Mr DJA

No, because you're transposing an existing song.

If Mick and Keith had written TWFNO, and Taylor suggests a chord chance from straight chords to maj7, he is also transposing an existing song – hence suggests a change in its arrangement.

Arranging is not just what you described, TravellinMan. It could also mean suggestions about change in tempo, wiping of instruments, dynamics etc. etc.

Although wasn't it Jagger who promised MT song writing credits but then reneged? That is what I have read but have never seen Taylor himself say that

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terraplane
Although wasn't it Jagger who promised MT song writing credits but then reneged? That is what I have read but have never seen Taylor himself say that

Even if there are songs where Taylor might technically be entitled to a writing credit he doesn’t deserve it because, like Brian, he couldn’t write a hit song to save his life...not by himself anyways. And you me, Keith and the record companies all know this.

If he needed cash in the early seventies, he should’ve demanded that there be a surcharge on concert tickets – that would go directly into his pockets – for his solos/noodling. That’s the only reason you pay Taylor.

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terraplane
Although wasn't it Jagger who promised MT song writing credits but then reneged? That is what I have read but have never seen Taylor himself say that

Yes, on Till The Next Goodbye.

I believe that it is largely subjective, assigning someone a writing credit. Example: I wrote around 60-75 tunes in the lifespan of one band with my partner. We had established a great writing relationship. Almost spiritual. That very state, that spiritual place gave birth to much inspiration, and also shaped the type of songs that were right for that band. Now, through the course, there were songs, where I know absolutely that I may have written a song or two, where I was physically alone at the time, where I wrote every chord change, every lyrical word; yet I still never doubted for one second that the eventual writing credit should have both our names. Why? Because it all still came from that spiritual ground that my partner and I had scoped and claimed.
I do think thAt there should be times when say, a 3rd party is included. When they have brought something so central to the song, that it can't be overlooked. With the Stones, I only know from books and quotes; nothing first hand, but from what I know it's song like 'Ventilator Blues', 'Im Goin Down' that it seems that MT deserves it. His name was at one time listed as writer. The only reason I can imagine is that he wrote the main riff of those songs. And I would agree that he should be credited in that case.
I don't think transposing the key like mr dja brought up, in any way even comes close. Changing the voicing of as chord is NOT transposing; and voicings could drastically alter melody or mood - still IMO those things fall under "band working on a song" banner. In a good band, the writer/s bring a new song. Often this will be no more than a germ of an idea. And the band starts in on it. Suggestions fly around the room. Band jams on the song; hours, days. Members are working out their own parts, and all are working on the whole. Some bands decide that for this all should be included as writers; others do not. It is subjective that decision.
PS This doesn't cover legal view point though. But that is a different matter.

I#ve got a question about Taylor's studio work for other artists:

Mick Taylor played on the album "John McVie's Gotta Band with Lola Thomas" by the somewhat clumsily named group of the Fleetwood Mac bassist which featured the lead vocals of singer Lola Thomas.

Does anyone of you know how large a role did he have in the recordings and to which of the songs he contributed? The album credits unfortunately don't tell who plays on which song.

Thanks for your replies.

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billwebster
I#ve got a question about Taylor's studio work for other artists:

Mick Taylor played on the album "John McVie's Gotta Band with Lola Thomas" by the somewhat clumsily named group of the Fleetwood Mac bassist which featured the lead vocals of singer Lola Thomas.

Does anyone of you know how large a role did he have in the recordings and to which of the songs he contributed? The album credits unfortunately don't tell who plays on which song.

Thanks for your replies.

According to Nico Zentgraf´s site:

1992, May: JOHN MCVIE WITH LOLA THOMAS.
CD ‘Gotta Band’ (Warner Brothers WB9 26909-2). Producer: Dennis Walker.
Sound engineers: Bill Dashiell and Peter Granet. Recorded most probably in Los
Angeles (or maybe in San Francisco). With MT on four tracks:
- Evidence (Greg Sutton/John Herron/Bob Pfeiffer)
- Now I Know (Dennis Morgan/David Malloy/Billy Burnette)
- All That I Was Guilty Of (Lola Thomas/Greg Sutton)
- The Way I Do (Lola Thomas)
Musicians: MT (gtr)/John McVie (bass, bvoc)/Lola Thomas (voc)/Lee Spath (dr)/
David Plenn (gtr)/Jim Pugh (keyb)/Brad Dutz (perc)/Billy Burnette (gtr,
bvoc)/George Hawkins (bvoc)/Wayne Jackson and Andrew Love (horns)


...and to Felix Aeppli´s site:


Late 1991
Sound City and Sunnyside Studios, both Los Angeles,
or
Paramount Studios, Hollywood:
JOHN McVIE’S “GOTTA BAND” WITH LOLA THOMAS,
(Warner Bros. 26909-2,CD[UK and US], May, 1992):
1. Now I Know
(Morgan,
Malloy, Burnette),
2. All That I Was Guilty Of ...
(Thomas, Sutton),
3. One More Time With Feeling
4. The Way I Do
(both Thomas)
MT, David Plenn: guitar; Lola Thomas: vocals
; Billy Burnette: guitar, back-up vocals; John
McVie: bass, back-up vocals; Lee Spath: drums;
Jim Pugh: keyboards; Wayne Jackson, Andrew
Love: brass; Brad Dutz: percussion; George Hawk
ins: back-up vocals; Dennis Walker: producer.

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rootsman

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billwebster
I#ve got a question about Taylor's studio work for other artists:

Mick Taylor played on the album "John McVie's Gotta Band with Lola Thomas" by the somewhat clumsily named group of the Fleetwood Mac bassist which featured the lead vocals of singer Lola Thomas.

Does anyone of you know how large a role did he have in the recordings and to which of the songs he contributed? The album credits unfortunately don't tell who plays on which song.

Thanks for your replies.

According to Nico Zentgraf´s site:

1992, May: JOHN MCVIE WITH LOLA THOMAS.
CD ‘Gotta Band’ (Warner Brothers WB9 26909-2). Producer: Dennis Walker.
Sound engineers: Bill Dashiell and Peter Granet. Recorded most probably in Los
Angeles (or maybe in San Francisco). With MT on four tracks:
- Evidence (Greg Sutton/John Herron/Bob Pfeiffer)
- Now I Know (Dennis Morgan/David Malloy/Billy Burnette)
- All That I Was Guilty Of (Lola Thomas/Greg Sutton)
- The Way I Do (Lola Thomas)
Musicians: MT (gtr)/John McVie (bass, bvoc)/Lola Thomas (voc)/Lee Spath (dr)/
David Plenn (gtr)/Jim Pugh (keyb)/Brad Dutz (perc)/Billy Burnette (gtr,
bvoc)/George Hawkins (bvoc)/Wayne Jackson and Andrew Love (horns)


...and to Felix Aeppli´s site:


Late 1991
Sound City and Sunnyside Studios, both Los Angeles,
or
Paramount Studios, Hollywood:
JOHN McVIE’S “GOTTA BAND” WITH LOLA THOMAS,
(Warner Bros. 26909-2,CD[UK and US], May, 1992):
1. Now I Know
(Morgan,
Malloy, Burnette),
2. All That I Was Guilty Of ...
(Thomas, Sutton),
3. One More Time With Feeling
4. The Way I Do
(both Thomas)
MT, David Plenn: guitar; Lola Thomas: vocals
; Billy Burnette: guitar, back-up vocals; John
McVie: bass, back-up vocals; Lee Spath: drums;
Jim Pugh: keyboards; Wayne Jackson, Andrew
Love: brass; Brad Dutz: percussion; George Hawk
ins: back-up vocals; Dennis Walker: producer.

You find it on Youtube.

For example, Now I Know

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DandelionPowderman
If Mick and Keith had written TWFNO, and Taylor suggests a chord chance from straight chords to maj7, he is also transposing an existing song – hence suggests a change in its arrangement.

Arranging is not just what you described, TravellinMan. It could also mean suggestions about change in tempo, wiping of instruments, dynamics etc. etc.

Transposing is not changing a major chord to a maj7 or any other extended chords. Transposing is done when changing keys of songs. Adding to a chord is creating new harmonic and melodic possibilities.

Your second paragraph seems to focus on an arrangement of a pre-existing piece, which happens in classical music. In the world of the Stones, that doesn't apply as they were still in the process of writing original tunes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-06-30 15:55 by TravelinMan.

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman
If Mick and Keith had written TWFNO, and Taylor suggests a chord chance from straight chords to maj7, he is also transposing an existing song – hence suggests a change in its arrangement.

Arranging is not just what you described, TravellinMan. It could also mean suggestions about change in tempo, wiping of instruments, dynamics etc. etc.

Transposing is not changing a major chord to a maj7 or any other extended chords. Transposing is done when changing keys of songs. Adding to a chord is creating new harmonic and melodic possibilities.

Your second paragraph seems to focus on an arrangement of a pre-existing piece, which happens in classical music. In the world of the Stones, that doesn't apply as they were still in the process of writing original tunes.

And that's exactly where I think you're wrong.

Adding to a chord is more correct, yes, but it doesn't have anything to do with writing a song, if it's written on beforehand. Then it becomes arranging.

BTW, send me a couple of your songs that aren't completely finished, and I'll add a 7 here and a maj there. I'll send you my bank account number

Do you really know where they were in the song writing process? There was a period where Jagger and Taylor hung out more than Jagger and Richards, people even said they were like brothers.

You are undermining chord quality. I've never heard a major chord that sounded like a major 7.

Quote
TravelinMan
Do you really know where they were in the song writing process? There was a period where Jagger and Taylor hung out more than Jagger and Richards, people even said they were like brothers.

You are undermining chord quality. I've never heard a major chord that sounded like a major 7.

The Fmaj7 in TWFNO is pretty close (it's never really played like a full Fmaj7-chord)...

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Palace Revolution 2000
I believe that it is largely subjective, assigning someone a writing credit. Example: I wrote around 60-75 tunes in the lifespan of one band with my partner. We had established a great writing relationship. Almost spiritual. That very state, that spiritual place gave birth to much inspiration, and also shaped the type of songs that were right for that band. Now, through the course, there were songs, where I know absolutely that I may have written a song or two, where I was physically alone at the time, where I wrote every chord change, every lyrical word; yet I still never doubted for one second that the eventual writing credit should have both our names. Why? Because it all still came from that spiritual ground that my partner and I had scoped and claimed.
I do think thAt there should be times when say, a 3rd party is included. When they have brought something so central to the song, that it can't be overlooked. With the Stones, I only know from books and quotes; nothing first hand, but from what I know it's song like 'Ventilator Blues', 'Im Goin Down' that it seems that MT deserves it. His name was at one time listed as writer. The only reason I can imagine is that he wrote the main riff of those songs. And I would agree that he should be credited in that case.
I don't think transposing the key like mr dja brought up, in any way even comes close. Changing the voicing of as chord is NOT transposing; and voicings could drastically alter melody or mood - still IMO those things fall under "band working on a song" banner. In a good band, the writer/s bring a new song. Often this will be no more than a germ of an idea. And the band starts in on it. Suggestions fly around the room. Band jams on the song; hours, days. Members are working out their own parts, and all are working on the whole. Some bands decide that for this all should be included as writers; others do not. It is subjective that decision.
PS This doesn't cover legal view point though. But that is a different matter.

Very well said!
I think Mick & Keith would have been better men if MT had been given some credits, or even going back if they had said to Bill after Paint it Black, 'hey, Bill, your parts made that song into a great record, let's give you a credit.'

They simply do not give credits (or almost do not).
Everybody in the band from Bill to MT to Ronnie should have known/should know that. You gotta live with it - or leave.