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tomk

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stonehearted
Not according to Geoff Emerick's book.

Well, he's wrong. According Lewishon and the book REcording the Beatles, track one has "two guitars and drums." THis is before bouncing. So if Paul does have 4 hands...

But he was there--as the studio engineer. Mark Lewisohn is a second-hand source.

If this isn't a suitable occasion for Sons of The Beatles then why not get Yoko involved? It would be great to hear her screaming!

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stonehearted

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tomk

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stonehearted
Not according to Geoff Emerick's book.

Well, he's wrong. According Lewishon and the book REcording the Beatles, track one has "two guitars and drums." THis is before bouncing. So if Paul does have 4 hands...

But he was there--as the studio engineer. Mark Lewisohn is a second-hand source.

I'll take Lewishon's reseaerch. There's 2 guitars on track one. If Lewishon is a second-hand source, then all his research, which is pretty in-depth, doesn't mean much. I liked Emerick's book, despite the jabs at George Harrison. Maybe he was thinking that since George didn't play the solos that Paul did it all. The book Recording the Beatles explains a lot, too. Fantastic book. Worth every penny.

George was slated to play lead on the original backing track, John rhythm, and Paul bass.

From Emerick's book:

"....There was another surprise: Paul wanted to play rhythm guitar on the backing track instead of bass--the first time I'd known him to do that. He simply told John, 'Let me do the rhythm on this; I know exactly what I want.' John accepted Paul's instruction without a word of protest and simply picked up a bass guitar. He didn't have any feel for the instrument, though, so we decided to record him on a separate track, using a DI box instead of a bass amp--this way, his guide bass part could be replaced later by Paul, without any problem of bleed or leakage onto any of the microphones.

"The 'Sgt. Pepper' theme song was completed in a remarkably short space of time--just two days, including all vocals--despite the fact that George Harrison spent hours trying to nail down the guitar solo. In the end, Paul peremptorily replaced George's work with a stunning solo of his own, which Harrison was clearly not very happy about...."

I'll take Emerick's version, because it isn't "research"--it's first-hand experience.

Well, one thing must be remembered, that often first hand memories are tricky and often in error. Case in point, watch Anthology and often there are four different stories for the same event. Emerick's book is very good, but he clearly was a Paul man, and didn't think much of George's abilities, and often the tone of his book is pretty biased. That doesn't instill a lot of faith in this as a unbiased accurate memory of the fact. Lewishon, however, is a researcher, and was granted unheard of access to all The Beatles tapes and studio notes. Often his research takes many different sources. In this case I am not sure who is correct, but I do tend to lean toward Lewishon, as he seems to be unbiased and has access to multiple sources. Emerick, for all we know, is just relying on his memories, which is a tricky place to be in for a primary source due to the passage of time and the details that get foggy.

Not to mention the fact that there is no "guitar solo" in Sgt Pepper. He must either mean the lead fills or is thinking of another song - Taxman?

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reg thorpe

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billwebster
What are they supposed to play? "Beautiful Night"?

With a Little Help From My Friends

Or 'Yellow Submarine,' one of my favorites : )

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tomk

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latebloomer
It might be because for the last 45 years, all he ever did was flash a peace sign.

I'm trying to figure out when he started this nonsense. It wasn't the '60s. I don't recall him doing it in the '70s or even a few years after Lennon's death.

Probably in 1989 when he started doing solo tours. Everybody needs a shtick.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 16:46 by tatters.

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treaclefingers

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Munichhilton
So a bass player is gonna stand up there with a drummer...and it's momentous?
What Beatles songs have only bass and drum?

Come Together...ok, I may be remembering it wrong.

I could see that working if they talk that wacky Canadian into singing lead...

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stonehearted

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Munichhilton
So a bass player is gonna stand up there with a drummer...and it's momentous?
What Beatles songs have only bass and drum?

The Sgt. Pepper title track has only Paul and Ringo playing on it, with Paul handling all of the guitars--if Paul had four more arms, it would work live as well.

Nah, there's a rhythm guitar by either Harrison or Lennon.

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His Majesty

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stonehearted

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Munichhilton
So a bass player is gonna stand up there with a drummer...and it's momentous?
What Beatles songs have only bass and drum?

The Sgt. Pepper title track has only Paul and Ringo playing on it, with Paul handling all of the guitars--if Paul had four more arms, it would work live as well.

Nah, there's a rhythm guitar by either Harrison or Lennon.

Plus Lennon's backing vocals.

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whitem8
Well, one thing must be remembered, that often first hand memories are tricky and often in error. Case in point, watch Anthology and often there are four different stories for the same event. Emerick's book is very good, but he clearly was a Paul man, and didn't think much of George's abilities, and often the tone of his book is pretty biased. That doesn't instill a lot of faith in this as a unbiased accurate memory of the fact. Lewishon, however, is a researcher, and was granted unheard of access to all The Beatles tapes and studio notes. Often his research takes many different sources. In this case I am not sure who is correct, but I do tend to lean toward Lewishon, as he seems to be unbiased and has access to multiple sources. Emerick, for all we know, is just relying on his memories, which is a tricky place to be in for a primary source due to the passage of time and the details that get foggy.

I agree about Emerick. His book, while interesting and informative to a degree, was a great disappointment to me. Probably because I had such great expectations for it, but that he turned out a biased pro Paul book was also a distraction for me while reading it.

Oh well. I do think, however (as the book implies), that the friction between Paul and George increased over the Beatles studio years over this issue and other things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-09 18:59 by nightskyman.

I have had a complete rethink when it comes to Macca. As far as I am concerned the guy still comes up with great music (maybe not consistently but not even Dylan does) and he just seems like a pretty cool guy. It must suck to be constantly compared to what you did in your twenties but I think he has handled it well. And he can still bring it live so its all good.

Emerick's book is a studio history, as he witnessed it, nothing more. His alleged biases seem to bother people. If he appears "pro Paul" and makes less than flattering observations about George, it's only because that's the way he observed them in the studio--that is, Paul the most enthusiastic in the recording process and George the most frustrated (just listen to takes 12 and 13 of George on Don't Bother Me for confirmation).

In Anthology, memories are selective over time because personal egos have rendered them as such. Emerick was an EMI studio engineer who saw it as third party observers with no real personal interest would--objectively.

And yes, Lennon had backing vocals on the track, but the issue was who plays what on it.

Why would Harrison be playing rhythm on this track? That was Lennon's role. Harrison was the lead player. As for Lennon playing rhythm, see Emerick's account about the switch he and Paul made. Why is it so hard to accept that this was Paul's song and that he took complete control of the music because he knew best what he wanted? He played the guitars and the bass, so what's the problem?

I for one was not "disappointed" in Emerick's book--because I was not expecting anything. It is what it is, a studio employee's account of what he witnessed in the studio. And his memory appears quite detailed, particularly the accounts of the Day in the Life orchestra overdub session and the nuances of George's expression of rage that day in the studio when Yoko nicked his crackers.

So, Lewisohn had access to "studio notes"--who wrote those? Perhaps even they are in error. I think in this particular case a first-hand source like Emerick merits greater consideration than an outside "researcher" who wasn't there to witness Paul suggesting to John that they swap rhythm and bass roles for the track, which is something that no "studio notes" would have mentioned.

Emerick seemed to go out of his way to be diplomatic in his depiction of Harrison and emphasizes his development and maturity as a musician and songwriter from his role as the "little brother". His account of the evolution and recording of "Within You Without You" is very deferential to Harrison. I greatly enjoyed the book.

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Shantipole
I have had a complete rethink when it comes to Macca. As far as I am concerned the guy still comes up with great music (maybe not consistently but not even Dylan does) and he just seems like a pretty cool guy. It must suck to be constantly compared to what you did in your twenties but I think he has handled it well. And he can still bring it live so its all good.

Yes, Paul can still bring it!

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BlackHat
If this isn't a suitable occasion for Sons of The Beatles then why not get Yoko involved? It would be great to hear her screaming!

Oh, (no) Yoko! (John didn't sing the no in his tune, tho.)

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tatters

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michaelsavage
Sunds so boring

Sons are so boring? Agreed.

Lucky their fathers were born first...

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stonehearted
Emerick's book is a studio history, as he witnessed it, nothing more. His alleged biases seem to bother people. If he appears "pro Paul" and makes less than flattering observations about George, it's only because that's the way he observed them in the studio--that is, Paul the most enthusiastic in the recording process and George the most frustrated (just listen to takes 12 and 13 of George on Don't Bother Me for confirmation).

In Anthology, memories are selective over time because personal egos have rendered them as such. Emerick was an EMI studio engineer who saw it as third party observers with no real personal interest would--objectively.

And yes, Lennon had backing vocals on the track, but the issue was who plays what on it.

Why would Harrison be playing rhythm on this track? That was Lennon's role. Harrison was the lead player. As for Lennon playing rhythm, see Emerick's account about the switch he and Paul made. Why is it so hard to accept that this was Paul's song and that he took complete control of the music because he knew best what he wanted? He played the guitars and the bass, so what's the problem?

I for one was not "disappointed" in Emerick's book--because I was not expecting anything. It is what it is, a studio employee's account of what he witnessed in the studio. And his memory appears quite detailed, particularly the accounts of the Day in the Life orchestra overdub session and the nuances of George's expression of rage that day in the studio when Yoko nicked his crackers.

So, Lewisohn had access to "studio notes"--who wrote those? Perhaps even they are in error. I think in this particular case a first-hand source like Emerick merits greater consideration than an outside "researcher" who wasn't there to witness Paul suggesting to John that they swap rhythm and bass roles for the track, which is something that no "studio notes" would have mentioned.

I did not feel his book was unbiased. He made several comments that denigrated George, especially his writing. Those sections made me pause and consider the rest of the book in a more critical light. He seemed very pro-Paul, and identified with Paul's work ethic. I think Lennon and Harrison got on his nerves. I can't recall the quote exactly, but he writes about Harrison not being a very good writer. Now he might not have been as good as J and P in the early days, but by Rubber Soul he was writing solid material that could stand up to a lot of Lennon/McCartney's stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if Macca did play the lead fills in Sgt. Pepper, and that could have been another instance that really irritated George. George did say in an interview in the mid 70's, "Paul McCartney ruined me as a guitar player!"

According to The Beatles Bible website (which seems pretty thoroughly researched) it also states McCartney played lead guitar. So again it could well be the case:

[www.beatlesbible.com]

Here is a very interesting article about Emerick's book and the controversy and possible errors:

[www.macca-central.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 11:37 by whitem8.

Thanks, whitem8 for the links. It seems a lot of people have a problem with the perceived anti-George bias in Emerick's book. In my opinion he is fair. He gives him credit when he is on, and takes note when he is off. I have sessions CDs from their early albums, and George was mostly hit or miss half the time. On several takes of I Saw Her Standing There, George sang out of sync with John and Paul's vocals and finally producer George Martin had to halt a take when Harrison sang "I" as John and Paul were singing "she". Harrison could indeed also be "ham-fisted" when it came to solo guitar takes. One After 909 from the With The Beatles sessions kept breaking down for various reasons, but during one take George's solo was way off and John noticed it: a couple of bars into the solo, John goes "What?!", then at the end of the take John says to George, "What kind of solo was that?"

Still, Emerick did comment on Harrison's improvement over time and even helped George out with studio engineering on one occasion around the time of Bangladesh--even when Harrison woke him out of a sound sleep with a phone call at 1 a.m. imploring him to show up at the studio in half an hour.

If Harrison appeared "dour" in the studio--and this is the only context in which Emerick had to observe George's behavior--it may have had something to do with the fact that he was living under the shadow of Lennon and McCartney as a songwriter. John and Paul didn't seem to think too much of his earlier efforts. Just listen to the clip of the vocal overdub session for George's contribution, the way John and Paul turn the session into a Goonies' episode while George, his tone displaying mild frustration, tries to explain how the parts go: "No, play major!" Instead, John and Paul play major Goonies, and even producer George Martin gets into the act.





Another factor to consider regarding George's reserved, occasionally gloomy demeanor in the studio may have to do with the fact that Harrison had major, serious resentment issues toward McCartney on a deeply personal level, as recently revealed in a book, the details of which were confirmed by George's former wife Patti.





George and John weren't talking either for a while later on, and Lennon was stunned at not having gotten a mention--at least!--in George's memoir I, Me, Mine.





It's not difficult to accept Emerick's "dour" comment when one considers that in later years George's comments often made him seem bitter and resentful toward his Beatle past, and regarding possible reunions in the 70s George was always the least willing to even consider it. So if Emerick got along better with Paul it was probably because Paul's positive, enthusiastic attitude and thorough, dedicated work ethic made Emerick's job easier and the prospect of showing up for work each day--or night, as it came to be later on--more pleasurable.

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stonehearted


And yes, Lennon had backing vocals on the track, but the issue was who plays what on it.

Why would Harrison be playing rhythm on this track? That was Lennon's role. Harrison was the lead player. As for Lennon playing rhythm, see Emerick's account about the switch he and Paul made. Why is it so hard to accept that this was Paul's song and that he took complete control of the music because he knew best what he wanted? He played the guitars and the bass, so what's the problem?

I for one was not "disappointed" in Emerick's book--because I was not expecting anything. It is what it is, a studio employee's account of what he witnessed in the studio. And his memory appears quite detailed, particularly the accounts of the Day in the Life orchestra overdub session and the nuances of George's expression of rage that day in the studio when Yoko nicked his crackers.

So, Lewisohn had access to "studio notes"--who wrote those? Perhaps even they are in error. I think in this particular case a first-hand source like Emerick merits greater consideration than an outside "researcher" who wasn't there to witness Paul suggesting to John that they swap rhythm and bass roles for the track, which is something that no "studio notes" would have mentioned.

You are misunderstanding. I haven't read this book nor care who did what.

George plays rhythm on lots of Beatles songs, his rhythm usually involves a more arranged approach though... meaning he tended to make up parts rather than just strum along...

There are three guitars on the song. 2 rhythm guitars and one lead.

One of the two rhythm guitars has fills that are fairly typical for George's style with Paul doing the basic chomping on the beat rhythm.

The tape itself (pre bounce down) tells you someone other than just Paul is playing rhythm guitar simply because it is impossible for Paul to have played two guitars at once on the same track.

Who plays those 2 rhythm guitars is speculation, that they were recorded at the same time with the drums as part of the same take is not.

The basic four track (pre bounce down) was such...

Track 1 - two guitars, drums
Track 2 - bass guitar (overdub)
Track 3 - backing vocals (overdub)
Track 4 - lead vocal , backing vocals (overdub)

This four track tape was then bounced down on to another machine/ four track tape like so...

Tracks 1 & 2 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 1
Tracks 3 & 4 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 4

This left Tracks 2 & 3 empty allowing them to overdub the audience sound effects on track 2. The brass and Paul's stinging lead guitar was recorded on to track 3

Resulting in -

Track 1 - two guitars, drums and bass
Track 2 - audience sound effects
Track 3 - french horns, lead guitar
Track 4 - lead vocals, backing vocals

Each track of this final four track tape can be heard here individually, then altogether at the end:






PS: Yoko wasn't at the A Day In The Life orchestra session. His memories may be detailed, but he supposedly gets a lot wrong. This seems to be one example. Quite understandable if he was mostly relying on memory.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 14:02 by His Majesty.

How I wish such detailed information was available for The Rolling Stones 60's recordings.

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owlbynite

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tatters

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michaelsavage
Sunds so boring

Sons are so boring? Agreed.

Lucky their fathers were born first...

But their sons are the future.....

Yes, there were times that Lennon played lead. I Want You is a classic example. So all three guitarist regularly switched roles, which added to their appeal and strength in their music. Lennon, however, wasn't the greatest bass player, yet he played slide before George did, and George is remembered as a great slide player. However, he never played slide while in The Beatles.

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His Majesty

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stonehearted


And yes, Lennon had backing vocals on the track, but the issue was who plays what on it.

Why would Harrison be playing rhythm on this track? That was Lennon's role. Harrison was the lead player. As for Lennon playing rhythm, see Emerick's account about the switch he and Paul made. Why is it so hard to accept that this was Paul's song and that he took complete control of the music because he knew best what he wanted? He played the guitars and the bass, so what's the problem?

I for one was not "disappointed" in Emerick's book--because I was not expecting anything. It is what it is, a studio employee's account of what he witnessed in the studio. And his memory appears quite detailed, particularly the accounts of the Day in the Life orchestra overdub session and the nuances of George's expression of rage that day in the studio when Yoko nicked his crackers.

So, Lewisohn had access to "studio notes"--who wrote those? Perhaps even they are in error. I think in this particular case a first-hand source like Emerick merits greater consideration than an outside "researcher" who wasn't there to witness Paul suggesting to John that they swap rhythm and bass roles for the track, which is something that no "studio notes" would have mentioned.

You are misunderstanding. I haven't read this book nor care who did what.

George plays rhythm on lots of Beatles songs, his rhythm usually involves a more arranged approach though... meaning he tended to make up parts rather than just strum along...

There are three guitars on the song. 2 rhythm guitars and one lead.

One of the two rhythm guitars has fills that are fairly typical for George's style with Paul doing the basic chomping on the beat rhythm.

The tape itself (pre bounce down) tells you someone other than just Paul is playing rhythm guitar simply because it is impossible for Paul to have played two guitars at once on the same track.

Who plays those 2 rhythm guitars is speculation, that they were recorded at the same time with the drums as part of the same take is not.

The basic four track (pre bounce down) was such...

Track 1 - two guitars, drums
Track 2 - bass guitar (overdub)
Track 3 - backing vocals (overdub)
Track 4 - lead vocal , backing vocals (overdub)

This four track tape was then bounced down on to another machine/ four track tape like so...

Tracks 1 & 2 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 1
Tracks 3 & 4 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 4

This left Tracks 2 & 3 empty allowing them to overdub the audience sound effects on track 2. The brass and Paul's stinging lead guitar was recorded on to track 3

Resulting in -

Track 1 - two guitars, drums and bass
Track 2 - audience sound effects
Track 3 - french horns, lead guitar
Track 4 - lead vocals, backing vocals

Each track of this final four track tape can be heard here individually, then altogether at the end:






PS: Yoko wasn't at the A Day In The Life orchestra session. His memories may be detailed, but he supposedly gets a lot wrong. This seems to be one example. Quite understandable if he was mostly relying on memory.

Man, that is a beautiful analysis...

I guess the point seems to be that the opening lead guitar riff is McCartney's. I don't find it difficult to believe because we now know (beyond Emerick's book) that McCartney would do the leads on occasion. I just found Emerick's book distasteful...on the other hand, who knew he'd wind up having such a grudge against the other three?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-10 21:59 by nightskyman.

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nightskyman

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His Majesty

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stonehearted


And yes, Lennon had backing vocals on the track, but the issue was who plays what on it.

Why would Harrison be playing rhythm on this track? That was Lennon's role. Harrison was the lead player. As for Lennon playing rhythm, see Emerick's account about the switch he and Paul made. Why is it so hard to accept that this was Paul's song and that he took complete control of the music because he knew best what he wanted? He played the guitars and the bass, so what's the problem?

I for one was not "disappointed" in Emerick's book--because I was not expecting anything. It is what it is, a studio employee's account of what he witnessed in the studio. And his memory appears quite detailed, particularly the accounts of the Day in the Life orchestra overdub session and the nuances of George's expression of rage that day in the studio when Yoko nicked his crackers.

So, Lewisohn had access to "studio notes"--who wrote those? Perhaps even they are in error. I think in this particular case a first-hand source like Emerick merits greater consideration than an outside "researcher" who wasn't there to witness Paul suggesting to John that they swap rhythm and bass roles for the track, which is something that no "studio notes" would have mentioned.

You are misunderstanding. I haven't read this book nor care who did what.

George plays rhythm on lots of Beatles songs, his rhythm usually involves a more arranged approach though... meaning he tended to make up parts rather than just strum along...

There are three guitars on the song. 2 rhythm guitars and one lead.

One of the two rhythm guitars has fills that are fairly typical for George's style with Paul doing the basic chomping on the beat rhythm.

The tape itself (pre bounce down) tells you someone other than just Paul is playing rhythm guitar simply because it is impossible for Paul to have played two guitars at once on the same track.

Who plays those 2 rhythm guitars is speculation, that they were recorded at the same time with the drums as part of the same take is not.

The basic four track (pre bounce down) was such...

Track 1 - two guitars, drums
Track 2 - bass guitar (overdub)
Track 3 - backing vocals (overdub)
Track 4 - lead vocal , backing vocals (overdub)

This four track tape was then bounced down on to another machine/ four track tape like so...

Tracks 1 & 2 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 1
Tracks 3 & 4 were mixed/bounced on to new four track tape - Track 4

This left Tracks 2 & 3 empty allowing them to overdub the audience sound effects on track 2. The brass and Paul's stinging lead guitar was recorded on to track 3

Resulting in -

Track 1 - two guitars, drums and bass
Track 2 - audience sound effects
Track 3 - french horns, lead guitar
Track 4 - lead vocals, backing vocals

Each track of this final four track tape can be heard here individually, then altogether at the end:






PS: Yoko wasn't at the A Day In The Life orchestra session. His memories may be detailed, but he supposedly gets a lot wrong. This seems to be one example. Quite understandable if he was mostly relying on memory.

Man, that is a beautiful analysis...

I guess the point seems to be that the opening lead guitar riff is McCartney's. I don't find it difficult to believe because we now know (beyond Emerick's book) that McCartney would do the leads on occasion. I just found Emerick's book distasteful...on the other hand, who knew he'd wind up having such a grudge against the other three?

Most of this can be found in the book Recording the Beatles by Ryan and Kehew, an incredible book.

I'm also about halfway through Lewishon's new tome and was surprised to learn that in the very early days (before Paul played bass), Lennon insisted on playing the leads on the Chuck Berry songs they covered.

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His Majesty
How I wish such detailed information was available for The Rolling Stones 60's recordings.

That's your job. Could be your calling.

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tomk
I'm also about halfway through Lewishon's new tome

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whitem8
Lewishon, however, is a researcher

I find it profoundly amusing how the Lewisohn supporters in this thread can't even spell the man's name. Dyslexia, perhaps?

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tomk

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His Majesty
How I wish such detailed information was available for The Rolling Stones 60's recordings.

That's your job. Could be your calling.

Naw, one of the studio engineers should write a book, like Emerick, then we'll know all we need to know about RS 60s recordings, like in the case of the Beatles that John and George only contributed backing vocals to the Sgt. Pepper title song. It was one of those times when Paul became virtually his own band for a recording. Just because the Beatles were a quartet doesn't mean all four played on every track they recorded.

The trouble with getting such a book about the Stones together is that they recorded in so many studios, that it would probably be a peer-reviewed research epic with some 20 collaborators.

It is a simple fact that Paul is not the only guitarist on Sgt Pepper.

He along with either George (most likely) or John on guitar with Ringo on drums created the most basic take of the song, that being a captured live in the studio, all 3 playing at same time performance on to track 1 of the first four track tape.

Emerick had simply mis-remembered, it's supposedly not the only thing he mis-remembers in his book.

None of the facts I posted came from Lewisohn.

The only speculation posted is my opinion on who the other guitarist was on Track 1 of the first (pre bounce down) 4 track tape. The arranged playing style of the more interesting rhythm guitar with some fills is typical Harrison.

Again, it is a simple fact that someone else plays guitar along with Paul on Track 1 of the first (pre bounce down) 4 track tape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-11 05:15 by His Majesty.