RE: ''People kill, not guns.''



- - - yeah but guns help. especially guns with large clips. makes it alot easier for multiple killings to occur. it’s hard to kill 12 and wound 50+ with a 2 by 4 or a knife isn't it?

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pinkfloydthebarber


and are you kidding me? blaming the whole non existant 'gun crime' epidemic on 'immigrants?'

that's pretty shameless, dude

I didn't blame anybody for anything. The coinciding factors speak for themselves.

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Koen

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R
Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries.

Makes sense, and the US is the prototype of a homogeneous society. People from all parts of the world live there, whether they came there voluntarily or not since the first pilgrims arrived.

In theory we are all "as one" but far from it in practice.

Oh brother

The coinciding factors speak for themselves.

--- ok, how do you mean, then?

R, is this the point in the discussion where you link us to a Toronto Sun article?

Of COURSE it's immigrants who are to blame for the gun violence in America.
There most certainly wasn't gun violence before they came...



[thepowergoats.com]

OK, this discussion has officially from silly to ridiculous with people hiding behind their high-minded ideals (i.e. wishful thinking) as opposed to acknowledging reality.

Carry on.

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pinkfloydthebarber
RE: ''People kill, not guns.''



- - - yeah but guns help. especially guns with large clips. makes it alot easier for multiple killings to occur. it’s hard to kill 12 and wound 50+ with a 2 by 4 or a knife isn't it?

Well some insane lunatic can kill 200 people in an instant with a well placed bomb. I already stated in my first post no civilian has the need for assault weapons but if you want to ban every person from owning a hunting rifle/handgun etc. then that is an extreme position imo.

Anyone understands German?

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R

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BluzDude

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Stoneage
Of course you can argue for everyone's right to own a firearm but then you must also accept the consequences of that, namely high killing rates. They come together.

Not necessarily, there are several countries (not the U.S.) where almost every family or a high % of households own guns (far more than the US) where gun crime is almost non-existent.

Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries. I earlier pointed to a growing gun crime problem in Toronto that happens to coincide with a growing non-homogeneous immigrant population. Now, feel free to get all fashionably huffy and indignant but it is what it is. Didn't British police start packin' a few years back, quietly, for the same reason?

You have no idea what you are talking about R. The 'growing' gun problem in Toronto that you allude to is a drop in the bucket compared to any US city....AND, the reason why the criminals have the guns in Canada, is they smuggle them from the US. Blaming immigrants is a ridiculous and classically xenophobic position.

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treaclefingers
Not necessarily, there are several countries (not the U.S.) where almost every family or a high % of households own guns (far more than the US) where gun crime is almost non-existent.

Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries. I earlier pointed to a growing gun crime problem in Toronto that happens to coincide with a growing non-homogeneous immigrant population. Now, feel free to get all fashionably huffy and indignant but it is what it is. Didn't British police start packin' a few years back, quietly, for the same reason?[/quote]

You have no idea what you are talking about R. The 'growing' gun problem in Toronto that you allude to is a drop in the bucket compared to any US city....AND, the reason why the criminals have the guns in Canada, is they smuggle them from the US. Blaming immigrants is a ridiculous and classically xenophobic position.[/quote]

To reiterate, I didn't blame anybody for anything. I merely pointed to two coinciding factors. Also there IS a growing gun crime problem in Toronto (albeit a small one compared to the US but I wasn't comparing to the US, you were) but none existed there before. BTW, who ARE these people shooting each other in Toronto of late and how are they homogeneous with traditional Canadian society?

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R

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Koen

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R
Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries.

Makes sense, and the US is the prototype of a homogeneous society. People from all parts of the world live there, whether they came there voluntarily or not since the first pilgrims arrived.

In theory we are all "as one" but far from it in practice.

My point was that the US has been a country of immigrants, and the melting pot won't homogenize that. People from Europe, Asia, Africa, everywhere. So blaming it on the immigrants is blaming everyone in the US.

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Koen

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R

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Koen

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R
Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries.

Makes sense, and the US is the prototype of a homogeneous society. People from all parts of the world live there, whether they came there voluntarily or not since the first pilgrims arrived.

In theory we are all "as one" but far from it in practice.

My point was that the US has been a country of immigrants, and the melting pot won't homogenize that. People from Europe, Asia, Africa, everywhere. So blaming it on the immigrants is blaming everyone in the US.

Yet again I have to reiterate that I am not blaming anyone for anything - merely pointing up inarguable coinciding factors. Twelve people died in the horrific attack in Colorado where they have some of the most stringent gun laws in the US. That many people die in an average weekend in urban Chicago alone. Chicago ALSO has some of the most stringent gun laws in the US. The population of urban Chicago, however, is not the same (i.e. homogeneous) as nearby Glencoe Park or Evansville where gun crime is virtually unheard of.

RE: "if you want to ban every person from owning a hunting rifle/handgun etc. then that is an extreme position imo."

--that's fine, i accept your position on that; but rifles and guns aren't banned in Canada; tons of canadians have those. they like hunting; tons of canadians hunt, especially the further north you go . mostly with rifles, tho

guns aren't so easy to get, here as there; you need a permit for ammo, even

fine with me

canadians per capita are almost as heavily armed as americans; and if you only count long guns, not handguns, canada is MORE heavily armed than america, per capita, but people dont run out to buy one because they are scared, or feel they have to have it

but owning a gun because you are afraid your neighbour is going to come and steal the beer outta your garage aint a good reason at all, IMHO

and because canada has some semblance at least of gun control and regulation, despited being armed and ammoed per capita on a par with america, gun deaths are two-thirds, per capita, less. which is a good thing

why own a handgun? because rifles are too big to carry around?

protection? self-defence? fear?

basically in Canada the way we look at it is that you don't need a gun to protect yourself, if hardly anybody has a gun they could shoot you, with

there was this guy who grabbed his gun (in USA) to fend off what he thought was an intruder (wasnt, was the dog) and tripped on the stairs and shot himself in the balls

whoops

"but owning a gun because you are afraid your neighbour is going to come and steal the beer outta your garage aint a good reason at all, IMHO"

Not every area of the U.S. is a nice harmonious place. I live in a town that is very low crime so I really don't feel the need for any kind of a gun but other areas- even some close to where I live are not as nice. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get a handgun for protection- it doesn't mean these people live in a state of paranoia imo, it just means they are taking precautions.

RE: "To reiterate, I didn't blame anybody for anything. I merely pointed to two coinciding factors. Also there IS a growing gun crime problem in Toronto (albeit a small one compared to the US but I wasn't comparing to the US, you were) but none existed there before. BTW, who ARE these people shooting each other in Toronto of late and how are they homogeneous with traditional Canadian society?"

--------------

your 'coinciding factor' was 'increased immigration = increased gun crime'

and becaue the gun crimes hitting the news there are in the black community, I read you to be saying black immigration = more gun crimes

but, believe it or not the crime severity index is lower in Toronto than either Montréal or Vancouver. in fact Toronto's crime severity index (which is tabulated from cop reports) is well below the national average and the lowest of all metropolitan areas in Canada, except for two

and, half the immigrants that come to Canada at all wind up in Toronto, including black immigrants, so your theory should mean the crime severity index should be way way higher in Toronto, but it's not

most immigrants that come to Toronto are South Asian and Chinese, not black anyway

whose shooting each other?

well, beyond the rhetoric and big media sensationalism and misinformation, statistical facts that show Toronto has been averaging amongst the lowest "big city" homicide rates for the last thirty years. its murder rate per 100,000 is far below Canada's leading city Regina's, and not even a blip on the radar with American cities

no matter who is killing who, it's smuggled in American guns that are killing Canadians; that they do know

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R
The population of urban Chicago, however, is not the same (i.e. homogeneous) as nearby Glencoe Park or Evansville where gun crime is virtually unheard of.

I am not familiar with those areas, could you explain how they differ?

RE: 'Not every area of the U.S. is a nice harmonious place. I live in a town that is very low crime so I really don't feel the need for any kind of a gun but other areas- even some close to where I live are not as nice. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to get a handgun for protection- it doesn't mean these people live in a state of paranoia imo, it just means they are taking precautions.'

--- yup i can undersand that. same here; some places are more dangerous. here as well as there they probably tend to be the more crowded areas where poverty is commonplace, lack of social services, education, transit, social programs etc

and out of that downward spiral come gangs and gang affiliation; and drugs

there's violence and then there's gang related violence...and drugs are the killer, man, as in motivator; use of and sale of

gang members are bred, not born, and unfortunately here, i dont know about there, many early intervention programs, you know like programs to help kids succeed in school, recreational opportunities, drug rehabilitation programs etc., have been cut by govt

bur overall Canada is much safer than it was after gun control measures on rifles and guns were introduced; there has been a significant decline in most forms of gun violence, and levels of gun violence in Toronto have fluctuated dramatically over the last 20 or 25 years; there has not been a steady increase

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R
Twelve people died in the horrific attack in Colorado where they have some of the most stringent gun laws in the US.

This you have to explain. In my Dutch newspaper today it said that Colorado has the most free and easy gunlaw of the entire US, except for the city of Denver. As far as I understand from the article in the paper, basically there is only a check if you have a criminal record. If not, you can buy basically any weapon, hand gun, semi- and fully automatic as you want. Things like open carry, concealed carry or concealed in car, concealed loaded and open loaded carry are all permitted without special permit. I understand that the 'Make My Day' law is also valid in Colorado.

Mathijs

Am I correct in understanding that people here are arguing that non-homogeneous, largely immigrant communities are responsible for most gun crimes, after a middle class white kid allegedly blew away 12 people and make a good try at 58 more? Some 20 miles from Columbine where 2 other middle class white kids killed a dozen or more at their high school? That's not to even mention how many died as the result of the Oklahoma City bombing. (admittedly not a gun crime, but a white criminal).The mind boggles. If we can't understand or admit the problem, we're surely never gonna solve it.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-25 06:39 by SomeTorontoGirl.

This thread is now so off topic, it's off the rails.

This thread is as dull as talk radio or a symposium lecture on world finance, or something. I think it's time for a little levity...





...before the whole board is dragged right down the

RE: this thread is off topic..this thread is dull etc etc

if you don't like the thread, why are you in it?

RE: "Am I correct in understanding that people here are arguing that non-homogeneous, largely immigrant communities are responsible for most gun crimes, after a middle class white kid allegedly blew away 12 people and make a good try at 58 more? Some 20 miles from Columbine where 2 other middle class white kids killed a dozen or more at their high school? That's not to even mention how many died as the result of the Kansas City bombing. (admittedly not a gun crime, but a white criminal)."

-- yup that's how it seems; 'coinciding factors' and all; even though Toronto's gun homicide rate was higher for example in 1991 and again in 2005, than now, some people are still convinced there's escalating gun violence occuring, now

i blame the media for sensationalizing this, all to sell ads

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pinkfloydthebarber
i blame the media for sensationalizing this, all to sell ads

Yep, the media definitely contribute to people's fear and paranoia. Here's an excellent article worth reading about it: [fullcomment.nationalpost.com]

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pinkfloydthebarber
RE: this thread is off topic..this thread is dull etc etc

if you don't like the thread, why are you in it?

To try and get you out of it. Seriously, this stuff is for talk radio, not a rock-n-roll fan club.

We are grown men (and women). What is possibly wrong with discussing society issues on this forum. Just stay away from each others throats and it will be all fine.
I mean, what else is there to discuss about a band that comes together every fifth year for a photo opp?

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Stoneage
We are grown men (and women). What is possibly wrong with discussing society issues on this forum. Just stay away from each others throats and it will be all fine.
I mean, what else is there to discuss about a band that comes together every fifth year for a photo opp?

Off-topic is fine, but the name of the forum is It's Only Rock-n-Roll. The trouble with this type of political thread is that so many get all high-minded and precious with their moral arguments, and then it becomes a minefield of emotional self-righteousness. Why don't we just have an abortion thread while we're at it? Music unites, politics divides.

Oh, and in answer to your question of "what else is there to discuss about a band that only comes together every fifth year for a photo opp?", well, you know you're bored with the Stones and music in general when you'd rather talk about the news.
Imagine if every thread were like this one, then IORR would be something like:

Isn't anyone sick and tired of reading this atrocity on this messageboard. I am. Turn on the radio. Turn on the Tv. Open up a newspaper. Stop , please. There is no cure. It's a mad world. Hello.
?