It's very simple Matthijs.

How more difficult it is to get guns, the less people will get them and the less people will be killed by guns, accidents included.

Both the Dutch gun killer and Breivik were member of a shooting club and allowed to have guns at home. Even in Holland where we have "the stricktest gun law in the word" as you state.

Of course gun killing isn't to be prevented totally and indeed shootings like this don't only happen in the USA. But they use to happen quite a lot more often in the USA. In the other countries you mentioned those shootings are an exception to the rule, while in the US it's rather the other way around.

I think it's not only the gun culture in the US that is the cause of these frequent mass killings, but it's an important part of the problem. This phenomenon is a societal phenomenon and it has to be placed in the context of a 'violent' society on many levels. An essential part of the 'violent' societal culture in the US is that guns are normal and as easily available as a screwdriver. That's not the case in those other countries you mentioned. That's the very reason why so many people here were so shocked and angry when they got to know that members of a shooting club 1) are allowed to take their guns home and 2) aren't properly controlled as for their state of mind. So also here in Holland things aren't strictly and well regulated and yes, it had a fatal consequence.

Finally I refer to the statistics offered by firebird. The first reaction here was: "source please". That sounds reasonable, but that request was obviously intended to question the source once it was given. Because every source can be questioned in any case and that way the given facts can be made 'doubtable', even if they obviously are unquestionable or at least offer a clear pattern.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

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Mathijs
This gun culture in the US is like religion -it really is impossible to have a discussion about the existance of god with a true believer. No matter how many people are killed by guns daily, the gun cluture believers will only react with 'guns don't kill people' and 'it's our right'. So in that sense, every society gets what it deserves.

BUT -some people state here that these things only happen, or happen more often in the US, and that is simply not the case. Yes, the mortality rate by gunshots in the US is something like 20 times worse than in civilised countries (joke intended), but shootings like these are not typical American. If you take Western Europe there are as many of these kind of 'lone wolf' shootings. We've had two school shootings in Germany, a shooting with 6 dead in a super market in The Netherlands, a shooting in the UK, a killer in Toulouse in France, two seperate guys wacking out their family in France, we've had Norway of course (the last country you would expect something to happen), two school shootings in Finland, a guy killing foreigners in Sweden and so on and on.

The thing I don't understand though is how different the reaction is. In the US many people really believe that if the people in the cinema where armed it would have not happened, whereas after the shooting in The Netherlands the only reaction was to make gun possesion laws even more stricter -and we already have the absolute strictest gun law in the world.

Mathijs

peace. If people in the cinema had guns that guman would have thought twice about using those people for target practice, that's for sure. Fear of people fighting back is what has made world politics what they are these days.
I'm not saying that it is perfect but at least no nuclear bombs have been drpped on civilians in a long time.

Look at countries like Israel who have been in the weapons business for years, manufacturing death large scale and dolling it out as well. Those are the weapons problems I choose to fight instead of listening to idiots like km who don't live here, don't understand the issue and are willing to blame it all on America and Americans.

Guns are not the problem, technology allows up to make incredibly effective homemade weapons these days. Guns are for everyone responsible enough to own one. I have many of them and haven't shot anyone yet. Come into my house in the middle of the night with bad intent though and I'm ready to take you out.

Wild pigs raiding my crops, causing 1000's of dollars in damage, yep, gonna take them out too, especially when they charge or attack me or my men.

The USA has many problems but I still see people like Keith Richards and Roger Waters and many more choosing to make it their home. The personal freedoms and opportunities to suceed are alive and well here and personal safety is as good as anywhere in the world. We already have strict gun laws in most states and many peoples reation here is the same as in the Netherlands, make them stricter. One thing is for sure both sides have good points to make. peace

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mitchflorida1
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You're adorable and I want to pinch your cheeks.

Kids say the darnedest things!

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pinkfloydthebarber
So move to Canada. Gun crime is increasing dramatically in Toronto and Canada has some of the most stringent gun laws in the world.

- -

i live there already, thanks. and by the way, victims of all violent gun crime in Canada account for less than 3% of all victims of violence in Canada. dont try to BS me

LOL. Wait.

So tell me, oh mighty wise ones, how do you go about disarming an entire country? Perhaps the law abiding citizens will surrender their means of defense but how do you go about getting criminals to do likewise? You're impotent drag queen shrieking about 'idiot Americans and their savage gun culture' is entirely pointless unless you can answer this very simple question.

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treaclefingers

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TrulyMicks
The US has the scariest gun laws. There are many deaths I read about every week in my area that probalby woudn't have happened if we had stricter gun laws. Here in Florida I think it's easier to buy a gun than adopt a kitten.

That whole Trevon Martin thing was particularly spooky, that new law that you have in Florida, which if you feel 'threatened', you can shoot.

A can of worms I think that will lead to a disaster at some point (although Trevon's family would probably argue it has already led to disaster).

Yes, it is very sad. This law is being scrutinized as we speak and rightly so. I think they did go ahead and change it so if you are committing a crime at the time, you can't use this defense. They had a case in the paper of someone who has shot and killed two people in Florida at different times and got away with both. I think he's in jail in another state now, but in Florida, twice he was in a middle of a drug deal and felt that his life was threatened and therefore killed someone. Crazy, if you ask me!

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Naturalust

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Mathijs
This gun culture in the US is like religion -it really is impossible to have a discussion about the existance of god with a true believer. No matter how many people are killed by guns daily, the gun cluture believers will only react with 'guns don't kill people' and 'it's our right'. So in that sense, every society gets what it deserves.

BUT -some people state here that these things only happen, or happen more often in the US, and that is simply not the case. Yes, the mortality rate by gunshots in the US is something like 20 times worse than in civilised countries (joke intended), but shootings like these are not typical American. If you take Western Europe there are as many of these kind of 'lone wolf' shootings. We've had two school shootings in Germany, a shooting with 6 dead in a super market in The Netherlands, a shooting in the UK, a killer in Toulouse in France, two seperate guys wacking out their family in France, we've had Norway of course (the last country you would expect something to happen), two school shootings in Finland, a guy killing foreigners in Sweden and so on and on.

The thing I don't understand though is how different the reaction is. In the US many people really believe that if the people in the cinema where armed it would have not happened, whereas after the shooting in The Netherlands the only reaction was to make gun possesion laws even more stricter -and we already have the absolute strictest gun law in the world.

Mathijs

peace. If people in the cinema had guns that guman would have thought twice about using those people for target practice, that's for sure. Fear of people fighting back is what has made world politics what they are these days.
I'm not saying that it is perfect but at least no nuclear bombs have been drpped on civilians in a long time.

Look at countries like Israel who have been in the weapons business for years, manufacturing death large scale and dolling it out as well. Those are the weapons problems I choose to fight instead of listening to idiots like km who don't live here, don't understand the issue and are willing to blame it all on America and Americans.

Guns are not the problem, technology allows up to make incredibly effective homemade weapons these days. Guns are for everyone responsible enough to own one. I have many of them and haven't shot anyone yet. Come into my house in the middle of the night with bad intent though and I'm ready to take you out.

Wild pigs raiding my crops, causing 1000's of dollars in damage, yep, gonna take them out too, especially when they charge or attack me or my men.

The USA has many problems but I still see people like Keith Richards and Roger Waters and many more choosing to make it their home. The personal freedoms and opportunities to suceed are alive and well here and personal safety is as good as anywhere in the world. We already have strict gun laws in most states and many peoples reation here is the same as in the Netherlands, make them stricter. One thing is for sure both sides have good points to make. peace

Wonder if Keith legally owns a gun?

Keith illegally owns the blade

Keith was probably never convicted of any felonies in the USA and probably has the right to own as many guns as he wants. Doubt he could get one in Canada.

Otherwise I'm sure Patti and the daughters have a few around the house. Keith has hinted that he shoots and buries people who try to tresspass at his Ocho Rios villa in Jamaica. Tough guy. peace

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Naturalust

Guns are not the problem, technology allows up to make incredibly effective homemade weapons these days. Guns are for everyone responsible enough to own one. I have many of them and haven't shot anyone yet. Come into my house in the middle of the night with bad intent though and I'm ready to take you out.

That's where you go wrong I think. Indeed most people are responsible with guns. But in my opinion you have to protect a society against the x% of people whom are NOT responsible with guns. And there will always be people like the shooter in Aurora whom just suddenly snap. And that can happen to you and me as well. Also, the amount of accidents with guns in the US just isn't acceptable for a modern society, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to have a gun at home for sure -changes are simply too big I will pick it up when I am drunk and start toying with it. Or indeed, when somebody breaks in my house I shoot him. Americans think that guns make live safer, while it just doesn't. Almost nobody in The Netherlands has a gun in the house, but the number of house robberies is probably equal to any big city in the US. Thing is, you don't have to be afraid the robber will shoot you as well, because he doesn't have gun 95% of the time.

It's all about the second amendment, but a civil society should check its laws against modern times. I understand you would need a gun in 1789 -fight out the Brits, protect the family against the big grizzly. But the Brits are gone, and grizzlies only live in the Rockies. So change the law, protect the society from extremes like what happened in Aurora, and will happen again in a fortnight.

Mathijs

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R
So tell me, oh mighty wise ones, how do you go about disarming an entire country? Perhaps the law abiding citizens will surrender their means of defense but how do you go about getting criminals to do likewise? You're impotent drag queen shrieking about 'idiot Americans and their savage gun culture' is entirely pointless unless you can answer this very simple question.

You won't disarm criminals. In The Netherlands only a few thousand people have a gun as they shoot on a shooting club, but of course any real criminal buys whatever he needs from east Europe.

But disarming is quite simple: make it illigal to own guns, and fine it $2000 per gun. As what happened in The Netherlands, France and Belgium quite recently gun owner ship dropped to virtually nothing in a decade.

Mathijs

Would sex pistols still be legal?

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Mathijs

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R
So tell me, oh mighty wise ones, how do you go about disarming an entire country? Perhaps the law abiding citizens will surrender their means of defense but how do you go about getting criminals to do likewise? You're impotent drag queen shrieking about 'idiot Americans and their savage gun culture' is entirely pointless unless you can answer this very simple question.

You won't disarm criminals. In The Netherlands only a few thousand people have a gun as they shoot on a shooting club, but of course any real criminal buys whatever he needs from east Europe.

But disarming is quite simple: make it illigal to own guns, and fine it $2000 per gun. As what happened in The Netherlands, France and Belgium quite recently gun owner ship dropped to virtually nothing in a decade.

Mathijs

It isn't that simple, changes in gun laws here will only happen in small steps. It isn't politically feasible to pass a sweeping law that outlaws gun ownership. I would be thrilled if we could start with a ban on assult weapons. But as usual, everyone will mourn and say how awful it all was and then it will fade away until the next one.

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Mathijs
I understand you would need a gun in 1789 -fight out the Brits, protect the family against the big grizzly. But the Brits are gone, and grizzlies only live in the Rockies. So change the law, protect the society from extremes like what happened in Aurora, and will happen again in a fortnight.

Mathijs

We are no longer fighting the Brits but there is a significant segment of the US population who fears fighting our own government much as we did the Brits and for most of the same reasons. THAT is a big reason why I won't surrender my guns nor will hundreds of thousands of my law abiding fellow countrymen. You may call us extreme or paranoid or silly but we look at it as erring on the side of caution. Our soon-to-be former president has made gun confiscation one of his quiet priorities and the result has been the four biggest years for gun and ammo sales in the history of the US. The factories can't keep up. We have begun to fear our government here and it should be the other way around. You Euro-folks are too dependent on your governments to consider the possibility that they have too much control over your lives so it's easy to see why you don't relate.

BTW, how do you "change the law"? How do you go about disarming an entire country? Perhaps the law abiding citizens will surrender their means of defense but how do you go about getting criminals to do likewise?

RE: When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

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that's simplistic rhetoric. easy gun access, and its very easy to get a handgun in the USA, or gun laws where ownership is so strict even law abiding citizens have enormous trouble getting them, so if you wanted an illegal one the price would be outrageous?? which situation do you believe would be one where a criminal getting a gun would be easier? and keep in mind most guns used illegally are ones stolen from legal owners

RE: The bottom line is you can believe in the right to own a gun and not be some lunatic that wants to shoot people.

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but at the same time, in a country where the laws provide more punishment for those who possess a weed that grows wild in nature than for having a frigging machine gun, gun massacre's have become too commonplace.

RE: It was more the way he was ranting and raving about America than just hating guns. Of course you can hate guns without hating America.

like i said, america generally is fine with me. guns arent. and i don't want that particular gun culture seeping into canada, (and neither do the majority of canadians, according to polls), even though the NRA is desperately pushing it and trying to influence our conservative govt, who are listening just a little too much for most people's liking, here

most canadians think the solution is two-fold; 1) that less access to guns, not more, would lead to reduced levels of violence and less gun shootings/homicides; and 2) improving education, reducing poverty, treating drug use as a medical problem, etc and addressing the root problems of crime would lead to a more equitable, progressive society, opposed to making guns easier to get and carry

for example Toronto in reality does not have a crime or homicide epidemic. in 2011, Toronto recorded its fewest murders in three decades, actually. Toronto DOES though have problems of alienated visible minority youth, and various related socio-economic problems, and arming everyone to the eyeballs is not going to make that any better.

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Stoneage
Of course you can argue for everyone's right to own a firearm but then you must also accept the consequences of that, namely high killing rates. They come together.

Not necessarily, there are several countries (not the U.S.) where almost every family or a high % of households own guns (far more than the US) where gun crime is almost non-existent.

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mitchflorida1
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

That's the mantra the NRA army repeats over and over...

"how do you go about disarming an entire country?"

The cynic in me would say "you shouldn't".
The free handgun market as it is known in the US is the only part of the arm dealing field where the makers (rich ppl from the North) face the deadly power of what they make = they might be killed by their own product.

A guy who works for CMC or Springfield Armory might one realize how dirty his job is/was (ex : car-jacking, home burglary, shot by his drunk angry in-law or by a nutty etc)

Otoh there's zero chance that a Western guy who works for Raytheon and makes Tomahawk missiles for a living "experiments" the consequence of his dirty job in his life. Only ppl from Iraq or Lybia will.

So there's some justice in that. Twisted justice I admit.

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BluzDude

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Stoneage
Of course you can argue for everyone's right to own a firearm but then you must also accept the consequences of that, namely high killing rates. They come together.

Not necessarily, there are several countries (not the U.S.) where almost every family or a high % of households own guns (far more than the US) where gun crime is almost non-existent.

Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries. I earlier pointed to a growing gun crime problem in Toronto that happens to coincide with a growing non-homogeneous immigrant population. Now, feel free to get all fashionably huffy and indignant but it is what it is. Didn't British police start packin' a few years back, quietly, for the same reason?

The question still remains.
Who needs a gun and what for ?
I don´t think of the USA to be a society of deer and wild pig hunters.

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shortfatfanny
The question still remains.
Who needs a gun and what for ?
I don´t think of the USA to be a society of deer and wild pig hunters.

Nope.

Just Texas

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stonesrule
Perhaps it's time to end this thread.

I could have predicted it would turn this way the minute it strated. It's the IORR way to argue over everything.....Sad,sad,sad,

HA!!!

My political cartoon got munched.

A good way to solve this mess here in The US is a national background check database.
That's been fought tooth and nail. Criminals will always get their arms. So shall the nuts.
But arming everyone to the teeth won't make anyone safe. Look at The Middle East.

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R
Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries.

Makes sense, and the US is the prototype of a homogeneous society. People from all parts of the world live there, whether they came there voluntarily or not since the first pilgrims arrived.

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shortfatfanny
The question still remains.
Who needs a gun and what for ?
I don´t think of the USA to be a society of deer and wild pig hunters.

Texas and Northern California too. Quit that fanny you are making my mouth water.

Reading about Genghis Khan. His rule was to keep plenty of weapons around and only dish them out to his warriors before the battle. He was trying to keep the peace on his own grazing lands. Worked pretty well for one of the largest communities for a couple hundred years but then the Khan was a fairly reasonable man, unless you were his enemy.

They say a virgin carrying a treasure could ride through the Gobi from one side to the other unmolested. I think this had more to do with his rule of law than of the warriors access to weapons. peace

''Indeed. What you will also find is homogeneous societies in these countries. I earlier pointed to a growing gun crime problem in Toronto that happens to coincide with a growing non-homogeneous immigrant population.''

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but my point was you are totally wrong about Toronto. there is no 'growing gun crime problem' in toronto;

as i said before, last year (2011), saw the lowest incidences of homicides in Toronto in 30 years

as a matter of FACT, Toronto is the third lowest city on the Canadian crime severity index; only two other cities are lower

and are you kidding me? blaming the whole non existant 'gun crime' epidemic on 'immigrants?'

that's pretty shameless, dude

toronto is one of, if not THE most multicultural cities on earth, and has been for decades, and compared to ANY US city of any comparable size, has no where near the same level of gun related crime or homicide; not even close; even if the areas (Jane & Finch for example) of some government housing and projects have a higher than average (for Toronto) rate; overall though Toronto's crime rate is low, as is the surrounding GTA's

for example, in toronto has a homicide / murder rate, per 100,000, of just 1.5

Chicago's is 15.5

Houston's is 11.9

Philadelphia's is 19.7

Dallas is 11.4

get the real picture ?

there just AINT no comparison, and no reason to try and inflate the situation; the media tends to do that in order to sell advertising

the problem that exists is NOT 'immigrants' or 'rising gun violence' but poverty, and the fact that the poorest and worst-off residents have congregated in the bleakest inner suburbs, far from transit and social services (which the genius Toronto mayor has cut)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-07-24 19:54 by pinkfloydthebarber.

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msw2525

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MingSubu
People kill, not guns.

Thank you for saying this!

People, if they want to do harm to others are going to it regardless of guns being legal or illegal or whatever. If they are determined nothing is going to stop them, and people acting like making gun ownership illegal across the board is a solution to stop crazy people from doing horrible things are being ignorant and incredibly naive.

True. It's not guns that most of us fear... it's Americans.

[thepowergoats.com]

There will always be lunatics shooting/killing innocent people. If you want to buy a gun, you get one. Or join the army. It's one of the human species exclusive qualities, no matter your country/origin. Money buys power. Weapons are required to maintain it. A terrible vicious circle, simple but painful.