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Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: RollingFreak ()
Date: February 13, 2019 02:32

Rain Song is in my top 5 of Zep songs. Absolutely beautiful and when it all kicks in at the end it never fails to give me chills.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: February 13, 2019 11:23

Quote
snorton
it came after George Harrison saw Peter Grant somewhere, and asked why doesn't Zepp ever do a nice ballad...

And in typical Page fashion, Jimmy went home, he picked a song written by Harrison and "borrowed" elements from it for his own song! >grinning smiley<

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: February 13, 2019 15:56

One could argue that Page nicked the art of nicking from Harrison as it were.

Seriously, quoting an existing song in your own song is not stealing but, well, quoting. No infringement of copyright there, and a phenomenon that is as old as music -and art in general- itself.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: TheGreek ()
Date: February 13, 2019 16:36

I just finally ordered the 2 DVD set that was released in 2003. A while ago I was visiting a friend who popped in the 2nd disc that starts with Immigrant Song during a daytime concert and it was amazing as was the acoustic set with a blistering rendition of Brown A Yur Stomp and a rousing rendition of Going to California . Acoustic sets are not my cup of tea and I believe there are few and far between Artists that can properly do acoustic as IMHO it became almost a fad of lets play our set acoustic and then the music suffers . Look at it this way -say Metallica unplugged would anyone want to hear Enter Sandman acoustic ? I think I made my point , and I know some or many will argue the opposite .

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 13, 2019 17:59

The rain song ( in standard tuning my version I came up with on acoustic starts with G and then add F# and to G7 as the intro. Something starts with C and then CMajor 7 to C7 . I think Page took the opening feel of something and came up with rain song that is all and put in that strange tuning .


How the West was one( CD1) is now my favorite live recordings I have of Led from La Forum and LA Colisuem.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: RollingFreak ()
Date: February 13, 2019 18:18

Quote
OpenG
How the West was one( CD1) is now my favorite live recordings I have of Led from La Forum and LA Colisuem.

How The West Was Won is truly a brilliant live record. That first disc is killer and that 3rd disc always slays me. 20 minute Whole Lotta Love, the best version of Rock And Roll I've ever heard, a killer rendition of The Ocean and wrapping all up with a 10 minute Bring It On Home. They should have included more on that disc, as there's still like 30 minutes of time, but an excellent release all around.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 13, 2019 18:47

Heartbreaker off dis 1 from How The West Was Won is truly brilliant and Page's playing is full of tension,chaos and bad ass the tempo changes are awesome.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: TheGreek ()
Date: February 13, 2019 21:41

How the West Was Won is absolutely brilliant !

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 13, 2019 23:21

T: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news new
Posted by: TheGreek ()
Date: February 13, 2019 21:41

How the West Was Won is absolutely brilliant !


Yes - I have been listening to their catalog in 2019 and even some of their deep cuts are brilliant - The Rover is just brilliant the stingy guitar riff the whole band just brilliant. The girl she got long black wavy hair - the guitar riff, bass line the drums the vocals.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: RollingFreak ()
Date: February 13, 2019 23:28

So many great deep cuts from them. I was going to say up through Physical Graffiti there isn't a song I don't like but thats also not true. There's usually one song on each album I could do without:

I: Black Mountainside (nothing bad but just kinda there. Didn't do it for me)
II: Flawless.
III: Hats Off To Roy Harper. Love everything else on the record
IV: Four Sticks. Just never liked it.
Houses: The Crunge. Hate it lol. Used to not like Dyer Maker either then really warmed up to it.
Graffiti: The Wanton Song. Awesome riff but the song in general just always kinda bored me.
In Through The Out Door: Careselumbra. Like everything else.

Presence is the only album where I dislike most of it. But yeah, they have some incredible deep cuts like The Rover and thats why How The West is great because its filled with stuff like Dancing Days, Going To California, Thats THe Way, Bron Yr Ayr Stomp. Disc 2 of Physical Graffiti is filled with awesome deep cuts.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 14, 2019 00:26

Yes so many deep cuts on physical graffiti on black dog on how the west was one they start with out of tiles I love that. I wish page would stop waiting for Robert to come around and just make some new music at 75 can he come up with something worthy of releasing

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: February 14, 2019 00:49

I can honestly say I like every single track on every single album up until In Through the Outdoor.
Of course I like some of them better than others, but can't think of a true dud out of all of them.
And then waiting with great aniticipation for the release of In Through the Outdoor when was 17 years old with my high school friends.
Hmmm...I wouldn't call it a slap in the face or a kick in the teeth, but it was anticlimactic...had a similar feeling when Steel Wheels was released...for the most part disappointing.

________________
Keep on rolling.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-14 00:50 by Hairball.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: February 14, 2019 00:57

Quote
RollingFreak
Quote
OpenG
How the West was one( CD1) is now my favorite live recordings I have of Led from La Forum and LA Colisuem.

How The West Was Won is truly a brilliant live record. That first disc is killer and that 3rd disc always slays me. 20 minute Whole Lotta Love, the best version of Rock And Roll I've ever heard, a killer rendition of The Ocean and wrapping all up with a 10 minute Bring It On Home. They should have included more on that disc, as there's still like 30 minutes of time, but an excellent release all around.

Actually it was from the Forum and the Long Beach arena. LZ never played the Coliseum, I should know, I've been to every Led Zeppelin concert in Los Angeles (except for the Long Beach show) From March 27, 1970 until they broke up.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 14, 2019 21:21

ppelin - Plagiarism and other news new
Posted by: BluzDude ()
Date: February 14, 2019 00:57

Quote
RollingFreak
Quote
OpenG
How the West was one( CD1) is now my favorite live recordings I have of Led from La Forum and LA Colisuem.

How The West Was Won is truly a brilliant live record. That first disc is killer and that 3rd disc always slays me. 20 minute Whole Lotta Love, the best version of Rock And Roll I've ever heard, a killer rendition of The Ocean and wrapping all up with a 10 minute Bring It On Home. They should have included more on that disc, as there's still like 30 minutes of time, but an excellent release all around.

Actually it was from the Forum and the Long Beach arena. LZ never played the Coliseum, I should know, I've been to every Led Zeppelin concert in Los Angeles (except for the Long Beach show) From March 27, 1970 until they broke up.


Thanks you are correct not sure why I thought it was coliseum and not long beach - truly great I missed out on led zep live wish I could of seen them live - great that you have those memories .

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: floodonthepage ()
Date: February 14, 2019 22:09

Quote
SomeGuy
One could argue that Page nicked the art of nicking from Harrison as it were.

Seriously, quoting an existing song in your own song is not stealing but, well, quoting. No infringement of copyright there, and a phenomenon that is as old as music -and art in general- itself.


On behalf of all the musicians who were never able to defend their work, either because they had passed away or didn't have the money to sue, there was plenty of copyright infringement when it came to Led Zeppelin. It is well documented within many lawsuits filed over the years, but it may in part be forgotten due to the lawsuits that never got to be filed. Page didn't only "quote" songs. Yeah, he did that too, like many musicians have done since the beginning of music, as you pointed out. But he also lifted songs largely as they were and put his (and Plant's) name on them, rather than saying "trad. arranged by" or something along those lines. As someone who was in journalism for more than 20 years, when you "quote" someone you don't put your name on it, you attribute it. Much of this lack of attribution was corrected on more recent editions of Zeppelin albums (i.e. "trad. arranged by" or actually including the author's name), but not all of it. Zeppelin's biggest hit owes a lot to Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" and there was initially no such credit on the song. Dazed and Confused, The Lemon Song, Bring It On Home, When the Levee Breaks, Nobody's Fault But Mine, Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You, In My Time of Dying, Black Mountain Side, etc., etc...the list really goes on and on. I like Led Zeppelin a lot and Page wrote a lot of great original riffs, but Page most definitely did more than "quote" on many Zeppelin songs, come on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-26 17:51 by floodonthepage.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: February 17, 2019 03:35

Zep did what they did.

They stole, they were also original.

It was awesome.

Like it or not.

It's that simple.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: February 17, 2019 12:23

One might think diffently : in 8 short years (69-77) they went from a speedy not-very-orginal blues band to a bunch of dinosaurs crawling onstage.
The British punk revolution was aimed at LZ a lot more than it was aimed at the Stones : the genuine but phoney virtuosity, the 3hrs+ concerts, the pomp (laser beams! dry ice!) all this was destined to be swept away (and it was).

The Stones survived the punk revolution easily and they made a great album out of it (SG) while LZ just sank like a WWI destroyer : a botched studio album ("In Through the Out Door") then a disastrous 1980 tour and that was it... Goodbye!

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: February 17, 2019 12:49

Quote
dcba
the 3hrs+ concerts, the pomp (laser beams! dry ice!) all this was destined to be swept away (and it was).

This stuff was not swept away, it became the norm for concerts.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: February 17, 2019 15:18

Quote
His Majesty

This stuff was not swept away, it became the norm for concerts.

For whom? The Dead (who were already playing borefests)? Phish? (yawn!) Metallica during the 91/92 tour? They quickly retreated to a 2/2h10 format for the next tour.
That's the problem with LZ they never really evolved they just grew (fat). From 90' gigs to 3h45 in 1977. In 70 a version of "Dazed and Confused" would last 15 minutes. In 1975 it would be up to 45 minutes.
The Stones did evolve, change the setlists, change the shape of their shows.LZ never did. It was just "more than the previous tour".

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: February 17, 2019 15:33

Quote
floodonthepage
Quote
SomeGuy
One could argue that Page nicked the art of nicking from Harrison as it were.

Seriously, quoting an existing song in your own song is not stealing but, well, quoting. No infringement of copyright there, and a phenomenon that is as old as music -and art in general- itself.


On behalf of all the musicians who were never able to defend their work, either because they had passed away or didn't have the money to sue, there was plenty of copyright infringement when it came to Led Zeppelin. It is well documented within many lawsuits filed over the years, but it may in part be forgotten due to the lawsuits that never got to be filed. Page didn't only "quote" songs. Yeah, he did that too, like many musicians have done since the beginning of music, as you pointed out. But he also lifted songs largely as they were and put his (and Plant's) name on them, rather than saying "trad. arranged by" or something along those lines. As someone who was in journalism for more than 20 years, when you "quote" someone you don't put your name on it, you attribute it. Much of this lack of attribution was corrected on more recent editions of Zeppelin albums (i.e. "trad. arranged by" or actually including the author's name), but not all of it. Zeppelin's biggest hit owes a lot to Muddy Waters' "You Need Love" and there was initially no such credit on the song. Dazed and Confused, When the Levee Breaks, Gallow's Pole, Nobody'y Fault But Mine, Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You, In My Time of Dying, Black Water Side, etc., etc...the list really goes on and on. I like Led Zeppelin a lot and Page wrote a lot of great riffs, but Page most definitely did more than "quote" on many a Zeppelin song, come on.

I was merely responding to the previous remark about the fact that Page took Harrison's Something (only by quoting the first two chords in The Rain Song, by way of a nod to George).

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: SomeGuy ()
Date: February 17, 2019 15:46

Quote
dcba
Quote
His Majesty

This stuff was not swept away, it became the norm for concerts.

For whom? The Dead (who were already playing borefests)? Phish? (yawn!) Metallica during the 91/92 tour? They quickly retreated to a 2/2h10 format for the next tour.
That's the problem with LZ they never really evolved they just grew (fat). From 90' gigs to 3h45 in 1977. In 70 a version of "Dazed and Confused" would last 15 minutes. In 1975 it would be up to 45 minutes.
The Stones did evolve, change the setlists, change the shape of their shows.LZ never did. It was just "more than the previous tour".

Shows by Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes come to mind.

I'm sure a 1977 setlist of Led Zep was way different than, say, a 1970 setlist. Changing setlists seems to be a problem these days for The Stones, if I go by the daily posts on this forum. On the whole, its perhaps not really fair to compare a band that's been active for a mere decade to a band that's approaching 60...

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: February 17, 2019 16:27

Quote
dcba
Quote
His Majesty

This stuff was not swept away, it became the norm for concerts.

For whom?

confused smiley

Long concerts, 2hrs + is still long, with lots of lighting and smoke etc is the norm. Fancy custom made stage set ups, fireworks, etc etc.

What was seen as OTT then is just standard shit now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-17 16:34 by His Majesty.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: loog droog ()
Date: February 17, 2019 20:52

Quote
dcba
One might think diffently : in 8 short years (69-77) they went from a speedy not-very-orginal blues band to a bunch of dinosaurs crawling onstage.
The British punk revolution was aimed at LZ a lot more than it was aimed at the Stones : the genuine but phoney virtuosity, the 3hrs+ concerts, the pomp (laser beams! dry ice!) all this was destined to be swept away (and it was).

The Stones survived the punk revolution easily and they made a great album out of it (SG) while LZ just sank like a WWI destroyer : a botched studio album ("In Through the Out Door") then a disastrous 1980 tour and that was it... Goodbye!


Some good points. To me, "In The Evening" is the pompous, bloated sound of a dinosaur slowly dying on it's back. I've never understood why that people like that track, or why it got so much airplay on FM radio.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 20, 2019 00:20

You can say that page stoled a lot of stuff but the key for me was he made it something better musically. For example My Guitar Gently Weeps and Babe I’m Gonna leave you have similar chords but the two songs sound different and page takes the music and makes it signature Led Zep those guitar parts are so amazing as he was a master in studio

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: OpenG ()
Date: February 20, 2019 00:29

[www.youtube.com]

Davy Graham - Cry Me A River

I wonder if Page used this as an example with the Spirit lawsuit which they won. For the defense of Stairway ?

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: February 20, 2019 03:23

Quote
loog droog
Quote
dcba
One might think diffently : in 8 short years (69-77) they went from a speedy not-very-orginal blues band to a bunch of dinosaurs crawling onstage.
The British punk revolution was aimed at LZ a lot more than it was aimed at the Stones : the genuine but phoney virtuosity, the 3hrs+ concerts, the pomp (laser beams! dry ice!) all this was destined to be swept away (and it was).

The Stones survived the punk revolution easily and they made a great album out of it (SG) while LZ just sank like a WWI destroyer : a botched studio album ("In Through the Out Door") then a disastrous 1980 tour and that was it... Goodbye!


Some good points. To me, "In The Evening" is the pompous, bloated sound of a dinosaur slowly dying on it's back. I've never understood why that people like that track, or why it got so much airplay on FM radio.

Haha yeah, but the guitar solo does show a hint of youthful exuberance, and the moody/slower mid section following the main solo is nice with it's tasty guitar licks (that part alone might have made a decent song).
But then Plant bursts back on the scene like an angry Godzilla on a rampage spoling the peaceful vibe, with Bonham's drumming providing the stomping sound effects. All in all, it's just a mediocre song at best, and as opening track for the album it kind of set up the mood for disappointment.

________________
Keep on rolling.......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: keefriff99 ()
Date: February 20, 2019 04:23

God, I know it's pointless to speculate, but I really wonder what would have happened to Zeppelin had Bonham not died.

I could see them struggling through the fads of the '80s like all the other '60s/'70s heritage acts, and then re-finding their roots in the early '90s once the grunge/alternative wave hit big.

They may have even split in the '80s and reunited in the '90s.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: erad ()
Date: February 20, 2019 04:46

Quote
keefriff99
God, I know it's pointless to speculate, but I really wonder what would have happened to Zeppelin had Bonham not died.

I could see them struggling through the fads of the '80s like all the other '60s/'70s heritage acts, and then re-finding their roots in the early '90s once the grunge/alternative wave hit big.

They may have even split in the '80s and reunited in the '90s.

Jimmy has said that him and Bonzo agreed that the album that was to come after ITTOD was going to be heavy, hard rocking album. A shame it obviously never came to fruition to the tragic passing of Bonzo.

I've always speculated though that if it wasn't Bonzo it would have been Jimmy, he really was in no fit state to be touring. He was wafer thin and in the throes of heavy heroin addiction. I don't know if he would have survived the 1980 US tour. You hear it come through on the boots from 1977-1980. '77 had a lot of great shows though, and is definitely my favourite tour. I think they needed a change in management, as great as Peter Grant was at changing the industry and looking after Zeppelin by the late 70s he was as out of it as Jimmy and Bonzo. If they had a management change say in between Karac Plant's death and the 1980 European tour things might have worked out differently.

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: February 20, 2019 04:54

Quote
keefriff99
God, I know it's pointless to speculate, but I really wonder what would have happened to Zeppelin had Bonham not died.

I could see them struggling through the fads of the '80s like all the other '60s/'70s heritage acts, and then re-finding their roots in the early '90s once the grunge/alternative wave hit big.

They may have even split in the '80s and reunited in the '90s.

Maybe similar to the Who and the Stones - release weak material, but continue to tour.
Announce a Farewell Tour as the Who did in '82, only to reunite a few years later at Live Aid, and then a full blown reunion tour in '89.
Robert Plant could have caused WWIII with a solo album ala Mick, but his career would have actually been successful which might have put an end to the band
Page would have released a solo album as well, and it would have had all the ingredients of a classic Zep album - minus the singer.
They put their differences aside, and release another weak album, but their tours continue to be record breaking - setlists made up only '70's material, with an occasional blues cover.
Speaking of which, they'd release an album of blues covers to great acclaim, but seems that's all they have left in them as attempts at recording a new album results only in hitting a wall leaving fans feisty and fidgety.
They continue to drag their feet as far as getting any new material finished, but the show must go on...mini tours with lots of vacation and family time and in between.

________________
Keep on rolling.......

Re: OT: Led Zeppelin - Plagiarism and other news
Posted by: dcba ()
Date: February 20, 2019 10:38

Quote
keefriff99
God, I know it's pointless to speculate, but I really wonder what would have happened to Zeppelin had Bonham not died.

I could see them struggling through the fads of the '80s like all the other '60s/'70s heritage acts, and then re-finding their roots in the early '90s once the grunge/alternative wave hit big.

That's a real possibility! Acts like AIC or Pearl Jam obviously loved LZ. And during their "tribute to Andrew" tour Temple Of The Dog did a pretty good version of "Achilles..."

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