For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
Quote
MileHighQuote
bvQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
What is your question really? Please explain.
Honestly I think the two questions are quite clear and they haven't been answered as far as I am concerned.
What are the implicit questions? It's what happens after a substantial portion of the population has been vaccinated and they have immunity? Are we supposed to continue wearing masks? Why and for how long? When does life return to normal?
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.
Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.
That's just a bunch of useless ad hom attacks that don't contribute to the discussion at all.
Someone is sealioning. [en.wikipedia.org]
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.
Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.
That's just a bunch of useless ad hom attacks that don't contribute to the discussion at all.
Someone is sealioning. [en.wikipedia.org]
Well that's just great. I am being attacked and you make me out to be the bad guy. And I learn a new word.
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Quote
bvQuote
MileHighQuote
bvQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
First question:
Here’s Why Vaccinated People Still Need to Wear a Mask (New York Times)
The new Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna seem to be remarkably good at preventing serious illness. But it’s unclear how well they will curb the spread of the coronavirus.
That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus — especially if they come in close contact with others or stop wearing masks.
Second question:
Special Issue "Pathogenesis of Human and Animal Coronaviruses" (MDPI)
Coronaviruses are pathogens of humans and animals of agricultural and veterinary importance. Prior to 2003, a number of coronaviruses were known to cause severe diseases in animals, whilst human coronaviruses were typically associated with mild respiratory illnesses. This changed with the zoonotic transmission of the potentially fatal severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV; in 2003) and Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV; in 2012) to humans. Moreover, the emergence of swine acute diarrhoea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV; in 2016) and currently, a novel human coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in China, that has resulted in fatalities, highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. Coronavirus pathogenesis is understudied, but must be comprehensively understood if coronavirus infections are to be prevented and managed.
<<< That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus >>>
This is speculation without any data backing it up. Yes, you can err on the side of caution, but there are limits to that. Right now, there is no rational reason to assume that if you are vaccinated and have immunity that you are still a carrier of the virus. What we know about the immune system is that once you have the antibodies, then they destroy the virus in your system. This line, "That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms" is a ridiculous stretch of logic with nothing to back it up, in my opinion. By definition when you are vaccinated you don't get infected.
<<< highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. >>>
Yes indeed getting a mammalian virus from a different animal can affect the human mammal. There is direct evidence for that. But your reference says nothing about this fact making our understanding of how viruses operate not being applicable anymore when they come from a different animal. You are manufacturing a conclusion out of thin air. That is not being scientific.
There is this sense of a popular inertia in the media that says, "We have to make wild speculations that anything is possible to cover all of our bases and then give health directives based on these wild speculations." And what I am suggesting is that some of you are blindly repeating it without applying your critical thinking skills.
I am just not buying it. My feeling is that when a substantial majority of the population is vaccinated and immune, that people aren't going to tolerate being told to continue wearing masks for reasons I have already stated.
Take the example of rabies. That is a dog-to-human transmission of a very dangerous virus. People get a rabies shot when they are bitten by a strange dog. Have you ever heard someone say that you still might be a rabies carrier after you get your shot? This may not be directly applicable, rather it's just to show that there are no wild speculations with respect to rabies.
Milehigh:
I am sorry for you. Having an agenda rather than following science must be great, sort of replacing facts, but it does not save the world.
So when the managers and developers of the vaccines say they have no proof of if and how vaccinated people may or may not transmit the virus still, you choose to make up your own truth and story about it?
Just give the world 2-3 months of vaccination, then we will see, in the spring, if vaccinated people do transmit virus or not.
Just some additional info for you: Some 50% of all covid-19 infected people do never have any symptoms. Still, they carry the virus, and pass it on.
The Moderna and Pfeizer vaccines are 95% safe in such a way that 95% of vaccinated people do not get covid-19. Still they may have a mild, transmitting version. Vaccine research do take time. These are RNA vaccines, they are not built on a real virus, like many other vaccines were built in the past.
Quote
stickyfingers101
I think masks should be mandatory in the supermarket forever.
best. rule. ever.
Quote
daspyknows
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknows
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
See, you too are slipping into becoming a fake news bot. It's clearly obvious that there was a posting that attacked me and contributed nothing to the discussion. And yet you are supposedly questioning that.
I submit to you that a person that has been vaccinated and has achieved immunity will not be able to transmit the virus to others. That's because your antibodies are continuously on patrol to attack and eliminate the virus if it enters your system. Therefore there will not be any live viruses in your system for you to shed and infect others. This is a process that is known and understood and has been since when? Perhaps the 1950s?
And you are claiming that the statement above is supposedly misinformation? Can you explain yourself?
Quote
MileHigh
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Quote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Quote
daspyknows
How do you know they have no live virus in their system? Are you a trained scientist or virologist or are you giving your understanding as a layman?
Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Quote
daspyknows
At one point they taught children the world was flat, doctors treated mental illness with shock treatments and syphilis (a virus) was treated with mercury. People learned otherwise. Your understanding of virology is similar. I never claim to be an expert but I do know there is much more knowledge that what someone learned in high school biology 50 years ago. Now, if you told me you had a PHD on the topic I would view your answers as more credible.
Quote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
You have forgotten the virus causing smallpox, which was eradicated through successful vaccination campaigns around the world by the late 70's / early 80's.
Which shows that it's possible to eradicate a virus!
Good point. Missed that one. The virus still exists in labs so there is still a slight risk. For every virus that gets eradicated tis one that vaccines have yet to work like HIV.
Quote
MileHigh
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
Quote
MileHigh
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
Quote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Look at how weak you are. It sounds like you are running away. You clearly can't put forth an argument and come up with some nonsense instead. To claim that I am a "little off" is laughable.
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
Quote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Quote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
You have forgotten the virus causing smallpox, which was eradicated through successful vaccination campaigns around the world by the late 70's / early 80's.
Which shows that it's possible to eradicate a virus!
Good point. Missed that one. The virus still exists in labs so there is still a slight risk. For every virus that gets eradicated tis one that vaccines have yet to work like HIV.
right, but HIV is somehow under controll. At least catching HIV is no longer a death sentence (at least not in rich countries)
Quote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doing
research, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.
Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.
The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones