Tell Me :
Talk
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
According to Dr Fauchi, as well as experts in Norway, and many other sources, we will vaccinate people for the next 6-9 months, and then some time in the fall, most people at risk will have been vaccinated. Until then, i.e. for most parts of 2021, we have to do all the proper measures, distance, washing hands, avoiding crowds.
We do not wear masks in Norway. We do only wear masks in the big cities like Oslo, and where I live, if we walk into a supermarket, where there are many people, or if we walk into a train, bus or metro.
I have a mask with me at all times. When I walk outside, or bike, I never wear a mask, I live in a medium size county with 100,000 people, twenty minutes by train from capital city Oslo, so it is pretty urban where I live. If I walk into a store, like when I went into a bakery today, I put on the mask, then 5 minutes later I am done and outside, mask off.
It is the privilege of a low-covid country not to have a lot of mask rules. Almost nobody in Norway wear masks. We have kept the covid numbers low, so we can live Normal. Some countries have the virus out of control, they have more or less given up on test, trace and quarantine. Then many must wear masks a lot, otherwise a lot of people will die.
I expect USA to go into a 100 days lockdown starting late January, that is the only way to bring back normal life, otherwise they have to wait until the fall with normal life. Just to slow down the spread of the virus. So far less than 1% of the 330 million population i.e. 2.7 million people vaccinated in some 3 weeks, then it might take months to vaccinate 70% or more people.
There is no quick-fix for the corona pandemic. The only way to fix it is to do like Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand or other countries are doing: Test, trace, quarantine, identify cluster, fix the problem with local lockdown, then 3-4 weeks later normal life, schools open, no lockdown, it is text book virology.
Bjornulf
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 19:57 by bv.
Well that's just great. I am being attacked and you make me out to be the bad guy. And I learn a new word.
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Bjornulf,
I assure you that I am 100% pro science.
Look at this statement, "So when the managers and developers of the vaccines say they have no proof of if and how vaccinated people may or may not transmit the virus still, you choose to make up your own truth and story about it?"
Here is what I would say, and this is my opinion. 25 years ago the managers and developers of the vaccine would have stated that vaccinated people that have achieved immunity will not transmit the virus based on the scientific evidence. But in this day and age they are literally afraid to state that. They are afraid of being sued because perhaps 0.00001% of the vaccinated population will deviate from the normal expected behaviour.
In other words, they are under pressure from political correctness and their legal department to actually NOT state what the science is telling them to be true.
This is the state of affairs in 2021. I can't explain why we are in this state, I can only tell you my observations.
TRUE science would state that vaccinated and immune people can not infect others. True science has been corrupted. And that is a tragedy of our times.
MileHigh
I remember going to the supermarket on the island of Mallorca in 1998 where they had ashtrays on top of the meat counter.
Those were the days
Nate
See, you too are slipping into becoming a fake news bot. It's clearly obvious that there was a posting that attacked me and contributed nothing to the discussion. And yet you are supposedly questioning that.
I submit to you that a person that has been vaccinated and has achieved immunity will not be able to transmit the virus to others. That's because your antibodies are continuously on patrol to attack and eliminate the virus if it enters your system. Therefore there will not be any live viruses in your system for you to shed and infect others. This is a process that is known and understood and has been since when? Perhaps the 1950s?
And you are claiming that the statement above is supposedly misinformation? Can you explain yourself?
How do you know they have no live virus in their system? Are you a trained scientist or virologist or are you giving your understanding as a layman?
I know for sure I am not a fake bot. I listen to the science in this and have since the beginning. I agree mistakes were made but the latest information coming from science is what I base my decisions on.
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 20:45 by daspyknows.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
I know that because that's what science has taught me. I am a layman that went to school, watches the occasional medical documentary, and I have a lifetime worth of occasionally being exposed to this type of information. What about you?
----
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
I know it from a lifetime worth of experience. I can envision conversations with people where my points are made and nobody would question them and everybody would be in agreement. And how do you know what I am saying is not true? Are you assuming that it is not true? Do you have any qualifications? Can you make an argument to state what I am saying is not true?
------
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Do you have a big collection of straw men?
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Look at how weak you are. It sounds like you are running away. You clearly can't put forth an argument and come up with some nonsense instead. To claim that I am a "little off" is laughable.
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
THE AGE --- 3 January 2021
ROCKMAN
right, but HIV is somehow under controll. At least catching HIV is no longer a death sentence (at least not in rich countries)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 23:10 by slewan.
I'll bite.. but a quick q for you.
How many times does it have to be explained to you before you'll believe the experts?
10?.. 20?... 30.. More..???
Just give me the final number... and I'll post that many answers from as many experts in one post. They all will tell you the same thing,
but it seems like it could save everyone some time
"While these developments mark a historic moment and hold much promise, that doesn't mean Americans can stop wearing masks anytime soon. CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and visiting professor at George Washington University Milken Institute School of Public Health, explains why.
CNN: Does the vaccine protect people from getting COVID-19? If so, how come I still have to wear a mask?
Wen: This is a good question! It's important to be clear about what we know and what we don't know about what the vaccine does. What we know is that the Pfizer vaccine is very effective at preventing symptomatic illness and severe disease. That means the vaccine appears to prevent people from getting sick enough that they develop symptoms, and very importantly, it prevents people from becoming so severely ill that they end up in the hospital. This is really great news.
Here's what the studies don't yet show. They haven't looked at whether the vaccine prevents someone from carrying COVID-19 and spreading it to others. It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier. They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others.
This is the main reason why we can't stop wearing masks right after we get the vaccine. The vaccine will protect you from getting ill and then ending up hospitalized. But it's possible that you could still carry the virus and be contagious to others. So those who get the vaccine should still be wearing masks and practicing physical distancing.
[abc7news.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 23:42 by MisterDDDD.
The antibodies only work inside your cells. So you can have the virus for instance on your face or on your hands and thus be able to transmit it.
Just read what the scientists say. It's possible to transmit the virus even though you've taken the vaccine.
Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doing
research, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.
Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.
The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones
Post infection anti viral meds. Expensive and have side effects but better than death.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 19:40
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: January 2, 2021 19:52
Quote
MileHighQuote
bvQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
What is your question really? Please explain.
Honestly I think the two questions are quite clear and they haven't been answered as far as I am concerned.
What are the implicit questions? It's what happens after a substantial portion of the population has been vaccinated and they have immunity? Are we supposed to continue wearing masks? Why and for how long? When does life return to normal?
According to Dr Fauchi, as well as experts in Norway, and many other sources, we will vaccinate people for the next 6-9 months, and then some time in the fall, most people at risk will have been vaccinated. Until then, i.e. for most parts of 2021, we have to do all the proper measures, distance, washing hands, avoiding crowds.
We do not wear masks in Norway. We do only wear masks in the big cities like Oslo, and where I live, if we walk into a supermarket, where there are many people, or if we walk into a train, bus or metro.
I have a mask with me at all times. When I walk outside, or bike, I never wear a mask, I live in a medium size county with 100,000 people, twenty minutes by train from capital city Oslo, so it is pretty urban where I live. If I walk into a store, like when I went into a bakery today, I put on the mask, then 5 minutes later I am done and outside, mask off.
It is the privilege of a low-covid country not to have a lot of mask rules. Almost nobody in Norway wear masks. We have kept the covid numbers low, so we can live Normal. Some countries have the virus out of control, they have more or less given up on test, trace and quarantine. Then many must wear masks a lot, otherwise a lot of people will die.
I expect USA to go into a 100 days lockdown starting late January, that is the only way to bring back normal life, otherwise they have to wait until the fall with normal life. Just to slow down the spread of the virus. So far less than 1% of the 330 million population i.e. 2.7 million people vaccinated in some 3 weeks, then it might take months to vaccinate 70% or more people.
There is no quick-fix for the corona pandemic. The only way to fix it is to do like Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand or other countries are doing: Test, trace, quarantine, identify cluster, fix the problem with local lockdown, then 3-4 weeks later normal life, schools open, no lockdown, it is text book virology.
Bjornulf
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 19:57 by bv.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 19:57
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.
Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.
That's just a bunch of useless ad hom attacks that don't contribute to the discussion at all.
Someone is sealioning. [en.wikipedia.org]
Well that's just great. I am being attacked and you make me out to be the bad guy. And I learn a new word.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 2, 2021 19:58
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:00
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
You can still smell? Great! But I am very concerned about your IQ.
You believe too much and rational thinking appears to be no part of your limited dictionary. You're entitled to have an opinion, even if it's worth nothing. Covid-19 is a virus, yes! Pb is a chemical, yes. Seawater is water, yes. A horse is an animal, yes. When your bell still doesn't ring, it's either not there or needs serious polishing. Reading reports and articles and make the content fit your way of thinking, well what to say? The mechanism for the Covid-19 is essentially the same as that of other viruses" = "the mechanism of a bycicle is essentially the same as that of a car". Does it matter that one uses human horsepower and the other uses gasoline (or electricity these days)? And that one takes you from A to B in a hour, where the other takes 7 minutes?
I would suggest: read your articles properly (meaning: analyse them (it requires intelligence) in detail) and maybe then your opinion will make sense one day.
Sorry, GLS it was my turn this time.
That's just a bunch of useless ad hom attacks that don't contribute to the discussion at all.
Someone is sealioning. [en.wikipedia.org]
Well that's just great. I am being attacked and you make me out to be the bad guy. And I learn a new word.
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:05
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:15
Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:19
Quote
bvQuote
MileHighQuote
bvQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
First question:
Here’s Why Vaccinated People Still Need to Wear a Mask (New York Times)
The new Covid-19 vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna seem to be remarkably good at preventing serious illness. But it’s unclear how well they will curb the spread of the coronavirus.
That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus — especially if they come in close contact with others or stop wearing masks.
Second question:
Special Issue "Pathogenesis of Human and Animal Coronaviruses" (MDPI)
Coronaviruses are pathogens of humans and animals of agricultural and veterinary importance. Prior to 2003, a number of coronaviruses were known to cause severe diseases in animals, whilst human coronaviruses were typically associated with mild respiratory illnesses. This changed with the zoonotic transmission of the potentially fatal severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV; in 2003) and Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV; in 2012) to humans. Moreover, the emergence of swine acute diarrhoea syndrome coronavirus (SADS-CoV; in 2016) and currently, a novel human coronavirus (2019-nCoV) in China, that has resulted in fatalities, highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. Coronavirus pathogenesis is understudied, but must be comprehensively understood if coronavirus infections are to be prevented and managed.
<<< That’s because the Pfizer and Moderna trials tracked only how many vaccinated people became sick with Covid-19. That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms, and could then silently transmit the virus >>>
This is speculation without any data backing it up. Yes, you can err on the side of caution, but there are limits to that. Right now, there is no rational reason to assume that if you are vaccinated and have immunity that you are still a carrier of the virus. What we know about the immune system is that once you have the antibodies, then they destroy the virus in your system. This line, "That leaves open the possibility that some vaccinated people get infected without developing symptoms" is a ridiculous stretch of logic with nothing to back it up, in my opinion. By definition when you are vaccinated you don't get infected.
<<< highlights the risks of highly pathogenic coronaviruses to human and animal health. >>>
Yes indeed getting a mammalian virus from a different animal can affect the human mammal. There is direct evidence for that. But your reference says nothing about this fact making our understanding of how viruses operate not being applicable anymore when they come from a different animal. You are manufacturing a conclusion out of thin air. That is not being scientific.
There is this sense of a popular inertia in the media that says, "We have to make wild speculations that anything is possible to cover all of our bases and then give health directives based on these wild speculations." And what I am suggesting is that some of you are blindly repeating it without applying your critical thinking skills.
I am just not buying it. My feeling is that when a substantial majority of the population is vaccinated and immune, that people aren't going to tolerate being told to continue wearing masks for reasons I have already stated.
Take the example of rabies. That is a dog-to-human transmission of a very dangerous virus. People get a rabies shot when they are bitten by a strange dog. Have you ever heard someone say that you still might be a rabies carrier after you get your shot? This may not be directly applicable, rather it's just to show that there are no wild speculations with respect to rabies.
Milehigh:
I am sorry for you. Having an agenda rather than following science must be great, sort of replacing facts, but it does not save the world.
So when the managers and developers of the vaccines say they have no proof of if and how vaccinated people may or may not transmit the virus still, you choose to make up your own truth and story about it?
Just give the world 2-3 months of vaccination, then we will see, in the spring, if vaccinated people do transmit virus or not.
Just some additional info for you: Some 50% of all covid-19 infected people do never have any symptoms. Still, they carry the virus, and pass it on.
The Moderna and Pfeizer vaccines are 95% safe in such a way that 95% of vaccinated people do not get covid-19. Still they may have a mild, transmitting version. Vaccine research do take time. These are RNA vaccines, they are not built on a real virus, like many other vaccines were built in the past.
Bjornulf,
I assure you that I am 100% pro science.
Look at this statement, "So when the managers and developers of the vaccines say they have no proof of if and how vaccinated people may or may not transmit the virus still, you choose to make up your own truth and story about it?"
Here is what I would say, and this is my opinion. 25 years ago the managers and developers of the vaccine would have stated that vaccinated people that have achieved immunity will not transmit the virus based on the scientific evidence. But in this day and age they are literally afraid to state that. They are afraid of being sued because perhaps 0.00001% of the vaccinated population will deviate from the normal expected behaviour.
In other words, they are under pressure from political correctness and their legal department to actually NOT state what the science is telling them to be true.
This is the state of affairs in 2021. I can't explain why we are in this state, I can only tell you my observations.
TRUE science would state that vaccinated and immune people can not infect others. True science has been corrupted. And that is a tragedy of our times.
MileHigh
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
stickyfingers101
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:25
I think masks should be mandatory in the supermarket forever.
best. rule. ever.
best. rule. ever.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Nate
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:30
Quote
stickyfingers101
I think masks should be mandatory in the supermarket forever.
best. rule. ever.
I remember going to the supermarket on the island of Mallorca in 1998 where they had ashtrays on top of the meat counter.
Those were the days
Nate
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:35
Quote
daspyknows
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
See, you too are slipping into becoming a fake news bot. It's clearly obvious that there was a posting that attacked me and contributed nothing to the discussion. And yet you are supposedly questioning that.
I submit to you that a person that has been vaccinated and has achieved immunity will not be able to transmit the virus to others. That's because your antibodies are continuously on patrol to attack and eliminate the virus if it enters your system. Therefore there will not be any live viruses in your system for you to shed and infect others. This is a process that is known and understood and has been since when? Perhaps the 1950s?
And you are claiming that the statement above is supposedly misinformation? Can you explain yourself?
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:40
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 2, 2021 20:43
Quote
MileHighQuote
daspyknows
attacked? you are presenting misinformation as facts.
See, you too are slipping into becoming a fake news bot. It's clearly obvious that there was a posting that attacked me and contributed nothing to the discussion. And yet you are supposedly questioning that.
I submit to you that a person that has been vaccinated and has achieved immunity will not be able to transmit the virus to others. That's because your antibodies are continuously on patrol to attack and eliminate the virus if it enters your system. Therefore there will not be any live viruses in your system for you to shed and infect others. This is a process that is known and understood and has been since when? Perhaps the 1950s?
And you are claiming that the statement above is supposedly misinformation? Can you explain yourself?
How do you know they have no live virus in their system? Are you a trained scientist or virologist or are you giving your understanding as a layman?
I know for sure I am not a fake bot. I listen to the science in this and have since the beginning. I agree mistakes were made but the latest information coming from science is what I base my decisions on.
Quote
MileHigh
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 20:45 by daspyknows.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 21:38
Quote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 21:53
Quote
daspyknows
How do you know they have no live virus in their system? Are you a trained scientist or virologist or are you giving your understanding as a layman?
I know that because that's what science has taught me. I am a layman that went to school, watches the occasional medical documentary, and I have a lifetime worth of occasionally being exposed to this type of information. What about you?
----
I am not talking about the effects of the viruses and their transmissibility. I am talking about their life cycle and how and where you kill them within that life cycle with antibodies. And in that sense, all viruses are essentially the same.
Quote
daspyknows
And how do you know that. I think it is something you assume. In otherwords you make an ass_u_&me
I know it from a lifetime worth of experience. I can envision conversations with people where my points are made and nobody would question them and everybody would be in agreement. And how do you know what I am saying is not true? Are you assuming that it is not true? Do you have any qualifications? Can you make an argument to state what I am saying is not true?
------
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Do you have a big collection of straw men?
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
DiddleyBo
()
Date: January 2, 2021 21:55
Bjornulf wrote: "The Moderna and Pfeizer vaccines are 95% safe in such a way that 95% of vaccinated people do not get covid-19. "
Sorry, but that´s a wrong interpretation of 95% safety. Look here:
[www.zm-online.de]
(in german, but I translated with google-translate)
What does "the vaccine is 90 percent effective" actually mean?
Researchers at the RWI - Leibniz Institute for Economic Research have explained in their current "unstatistics of the month" how the statement for corona vaccines that they are "90 percent effective" is to be understood. Did you know?
BioNTech and Pfizer had reported that their vaccine against Covid-19 was "90 percent effective". In the meantime, they and other manufacturers have reported that their vaccines are even 95 percent effective. But what does "90 percent effective" mean?
Are 90 percent of all vaccinated people protected? That can not be!
In some media, the statement was interpreted as follows: "That means 9 out of 10 people can be protected from infection by the vaccination."
"According to this, the vaccine would be effective for 90 percent of all people who get vaccinated," the researchers bring the thought to an end. "That would mean that if you vaccinate all 83 million Germans, 90 percent of them are protected; only the remaining 8,3 million can be infected. But that would still be far more infected than has been the case so far. So that cannot be meant. "
Correct is: "The 90 percent do not refer to the group of those who have been vaccinated, but to that of the infected."
BioNTech reported that around 43,000 people took part in the study, roughly half of whom were vaccinated and the other were given a placebo. Seven days after the second dose, there were a total of 94 confirmed Covid-19 cases. The scientists are now quoting from the Pfizer study protocol, in which the effectiveness is defined: The proportion of Covid-19 cases in the vaccination group is divided by the proportion of Covid-19 cases in the control group. This value is subtracted from 1 and multiplied by 100, so that you have a percentage. "It follows from this that there must have been 8 cases in the vaccination group and around 86 cases in the placebo group, which corresponds to a reduction of around 90 percent (in the 95 percent there were 8 versus 156 cases)."
Correct is: The information relates to the proportion of people infected
The “90 percent effective” therefore does not refer to 9 out of 10 people who have the vaccination, nor to all test subjects in the study or all people who are vaccinated in Germany: "It is a relative risk reduction, that refers to the number of infected people, but not an absolute reduction which refers to all vaccinated persons. "
For the flu vaccination, for example, this means: "In a season when the spread of the flu virus is low, the effectiveness of the flu vaccination is around 50 percent. However, this number does not mean that 5 out of 10 people who are vaccinated are protected from the flu. People without vaccination got two confirmed influenza infections, and out of every 100 people with vaccination only one. "
It is also important to understand, the researchers add, that the corona vaccine “90 percent effective” refers to the reduction of infections, not of serious illnesses or even deaths.
With the “Unstatistics of the Month”, the Berlin psychologist Gerd Gigerenzer, the Dortmund statistician Walter Krämer, the STAT-UP founder Katharina Schüller and RWI Vice President Thomas K. Bauer question recently published figures as well as their interpretations.
------------------------
Ha, I got you! That cost´s a beer on the next tour. ;-)
Btw, Happy New Year to everyone!
Sorry, but that´s a wrong interpretation of 95% safety. Look here:
[www.zm-online.de]
(in german, but I translated with google-translate)
What does "the vaccine is 90 percent effective" actually mean?
Researchers at the RWI - Leibniz Institute for Economic Research have explained in their current "unstatistics of the month" how the statement for corona vaccines that they are "90 percent effective" is to be understood. Did you know?
BioNTech and Pfizer had reported that their vaccine against Covid-19 was "90 percent effective". In the meantime, they and other manufacturers have reported that their vaccines are even 95 percent effective. But what does "90 percent effective" mean?
Are 90 percent of all vaccinated people protected? That can not be!
In some media, the statement was interpreted as follows: "That means 9 out of 10 people can be protected from infection by the vaccination."
"According to this, the vaccine would be effective for 90 percent of all people who get vaccinated," the researchers bring the thought to an end. "That would mean that if you vaccinate all 83 million Germans, 90 percent of them are protected; only the remaining 8,3 million can be infected. But that would still be far more infected than has been the case so far. So that cannot be meant. "
Correct is: "The 90 percent do not refer to the group of those who have been vaccinated, but to that of the infected."
BioNTech reported that around 43,000 people took part in the study, roughly half of whom were vaccinated and the other were given a placebo. Seven days after the second dose, there were a total of 94 confirmed Covid-19 cases. The scientists are now quoting from the Pfizer study protocol, in which the effectiveness is defined: The proportion of Covid-19 cases in the vaccination group is divided by the proportion of Covid-19 cases in the control group. This value is subtracted from 1 and multiplied by 100, so that you have a percentage. "It follows from this that there must have been 8 cases in the vaccination group and around 86 cases in the placebo group, which corresponds to a reduction of around 90 percent (in the 95 percent there were 8 versus 156 cases)."
Correct is: The information relates to the proportion of people infected
The “90 percent effective” therefore does not refer to 9 out of 10 people who have the vaccination, nor to all test subjects in the study or all people who are vaccinated in Germany: "It is a relative risk reduction, that refers to the number of infected people, but not an absolute reduction which refers to all vaccinated persons. "
For the flu vaccination, for example, this means: "In a season when the spread of the flu virus is low, the effectiveness of the flu vaccination is around 50 percent. However, this number does not mean that 5 out of 10 people who are vaccinated are protected from the flu. People without vaccination got two confirmed influenza infections, and out of every 100 people with vaccination only one. "
It is also important to understand, the researchers add, that the corona vaccine “90 percent effective” refers to the reduction of infections, not of serious illnesses or even deaths.
With the “Unstatistics of the Month”, the Berlin psychologist Gerd Gigerenzer, the Dortmund statistician Walter Krämer, the STAT-UP founder Katharina Schüller and RWI Vice President Thomas K. Bauer question recently published figures as well as their interpretations.
------------------------
Ha, I got you! That cost´s a beer on the next tour. ;-)
Btw, Happy New Year to everyone!
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:08
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Do you have a big collection of straw men?[/quote]
At one point they taught children the world was flat, doctors treated mental illness with shock treatments and syphilis (a virus) was treated with mercury. People learned otherwise. Your understanding of virology is similar. I never claim to be an expert but I do know there is much more knowledge that what someone learned in high school biology 50 years ago. Now, if you told me you had a PHD on the topic I would view your answers as more credible.
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Do you have a big collection of straw men?[/quote]
At one point they taught children the world was flat, doctors treated mental illness with shock treatments and syphilis (a virus) was treated with mercury. People learned otherwise. Your understanding of virology is similar. I never claim to be an expert but I do know there is much more knowledge that what someone learned in high school biology 50 years ago. Now, if you told me you had a PHD on the topic I would view your answers as more credible.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
bv
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:21
Moderna CEO Stephane Bancel said he got very emotional when he was told their vaccine was 100% effective in preventing severe covid-19 in the test phase.
They observed two levels of protection among the 30,000 trial people:
1. Risk reduction of getting covid-19 by 94%
2. Risk reduction of severe covid-19 by 100%
‘Absolutely remarkable’: No one who got Moderna’s vaccine in trial developed severe COVID-19 (Science Mag Nov. 30, 2020)
The biotech company Moderna announced the final results of the 30,000-person efficacy trial for its candidate in a press release today: Only 11 people who received two doses of the vaccine developed COVID-19 symptoms after being infected with the pandemic coronavirus, versus 185 symptomatic cases in a placebo group. That is an efficacy of 94.1%, the company says, far above what many vaccine scientists were expecting just a few weeks ago.
More impressive still, Moderna’s candidate had 100% efficacy against severe disease. There were zero such COVID-19 cases among those vaccinated, but 30 in the placebo group, including one death from the disease. There were zero such COVID-19 cases among those vaccinated, but 30 in the placebo group.
Moderna press release Nov 30, 2020:
Moderna Announces Primary Efficacy Analysis in Phase 3 COVE Study for Its COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate and Filing Today with U.S. FDA for Emergency Use Authorization
Bjornulf
They observed two levels of protection among the 30,000 trial people:
1. Risk reduction of getting covid-19 by 94%
2. Risk reduction of severe covid-19 by 100%
‘Absolutely remarkable’: No one who got Moderna’s vaccine in trial developed severe COVID-19 (Science Mag Nov. 30, 2020)
The biotech company Moderna announced the final results of the 30,000-person efficacy trial for its candidate in a press release today: Only 11 people who received two doses of the vaccine developed COVID-19 symptoms after being infected with the pandemic coronavirus, versus 185 symptomatic cases in a placebo group. That is an efficacy of 94.1%, the company says, far above what many vaccine scientists were expecting just a few weeks ago.
More impressive still, Moderna’s candidate had 100% efficacy against severe disease. There were zero such COVID-19 cases among those vaccinated, but 30 in the placebo group, including one death from the disease. There were zero such COVID-19 cases among those vaccinated, but 30 in the placebo group.
Moderna press release Nov 30, 2020:
Moderna Announces Primary Efficacy Analysis in Phase 3 COVE Study for Its COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate and Filing Today with U.S. FDA for Emergency Use Authorization
Bjornulf
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:26
I know that because it's well known and understood science. It was taught to me in grade 10 in 1973.
Do you have a big collection of straw men?
You can add a lot of knowledge to medical science about viruses but that does not necessarily mean that the fundamental facts change. There were no machines to sequence DNA in 1973. There was no genetic engineering in 1973. There were no RNA-based vaccines until 2020. But the basic fundamental understandings about the lifecycle of viruses remains the same.
With high confidence I state that after you are vaccinated and have achieved immunity you will not be at risk of infecting others. I have stated my reasons why.
If someone can explain why that is not true and can explain it in simple understandable terms please go ahead.
To me, it really feels like I am the one defending science and many of you are promoting some kind of corrupted and incorrect interpretation of science just because it is considered to be the "popular wisdom."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 22:29 by MileHigh.
Quote
daspyknows
So you have learned nothing since High School science almost 50 years ago?
Do you have a big collection of straw men?
Quote
daspyknows
At one point they taught children the world was flat, doctors treated mental illness with shock treatments and syphilis (a virus) was treated with mercury. People learned otherwise. Your understanding of virology is similar. I never claim to be an expert but I do know there is much more knowledge that what someone learned in high school biology 50 years ago. Now, if you told me you had a PHD on the topic I would view your answers as more credible.
You can add a lot of knowledge to medical science about viruses but that does not necessarily mean that the fundamental facts change. There were no machines to sequence DNA in 1973. There was no genetic engineering in 1973. There were no RNA-based vaccines until 2020. But the basic fundamental understandings about the lifecycle of viruses remains the same.
With high confidence I state that after you are vaccinated and have achieved immunity you will not be at risk of infecting others. I have stated my reasons why.
If someone can explain why that is not true and can explain it in simple understandable terms please go ahead.
To me, it really feels like I am the one defending science and many of you are promoting some kind of corrupted and incorrect interpretation of science just because it is considered to be the "popular wisdom."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 22:29 by MileHigh.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:33
Quote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MileHigh
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:54
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Look at how weak you are. It sounds like you are running away. You clearly can't put forth an argument and come up with some nonsense instead. To claim that I am a "little off" is laughable.
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: January 2, 2021 22:58
THE AGE --- 3 January 2021
ROCKMAN
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
slewan
()
Date: January 2, 2021 23:10
Quote
daspyknowsQuote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
You have forgotten the virus causing smallpox, which was eradicated through successful vaccination campaigns around the world by the late 70's / early 80's.
Which shows that it's possible to eradicate a virus!
Good point. Missed that one. The virus still exists in labs so there is still a slight risk. For every virus that gets eradicated tis one that vaccines have yet to work like HIV.
right, but HIV is somehow under controll. At least catching HIV is no longer a death sentence (at least not in rich countries)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 23:10 by slewan.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: January 2, 2021 23:25
Quote
MileHigh
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
I'll bite.. but a quick q for you.
How many times does it have to be explained to you before you'll believe the experts?
10?.. 20?... 30.. More..???
Just give me the final number... and I'll post that many answers from as many experts in one post. They all will tell you the same thing,
but it seems like it could save everyone some time
"While these developments mark a historic moment and hold much promise, that doesn't mean Americans can stop wearing masks anytime soon. CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician and visiting professor at George Washington University Milken Institute School of Public Health, explains why.
CNN: Does the vaccine protect people from getting COVID-19? If so, how come I still have to wear a mask?
Wen: This is a good question! It's important to be clear about what we know and what we don't know about what the vaccine does. What we know is that the Pfizer vaccine is very effective at preventing symptomatic illness and severe disease. That means the vaccine appears to prevent people from getting sick enough that they develop symptoms, and very importantly, it prevents people from becoming so severely ill that they end up in the hospital. This is really great news.
Here's what the studies don't yet show. They haven't looked at whether the vaccine prevents someone from carrying COVID-19 and spreading it to others. It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier. They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others.
This is the main reason why we can't stop wearing masks right after we get the vaccine. The vaccine will protect you from getting ill and then ending up hospitalized. But it's possible that you could still carry the virus and be contagious to others. So those who get the vaccine should still be wearing masks and practicing physical distancing.
[abc7news.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-01-02 23:42 by MisterDDDD.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: January 3, 2021 00:07
Quote
MileHigh
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
The antibodies only work inside your cells. So you can have the virus for instance on your face or on your hands and thus be able to transmit it.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 3, 2021 00:29
Quote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
The first question is clearly answered: it takes weeks before immunity is established - hence you may infect others after getting the vaccine.
The first question is not answered in the link at all. In fact the issue is not even discussed.
It's almost unbelievable that you would post that considering that I state, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus."
See how easy it is to slip into becoming a fake news bot? At this point it's like people have been subliminally conditioned. Keep your guard up.
To be honest, you're more than a little off here. By all means, believe what you want.
Look at how weak you are. It sounds like you are running away. You clearly can't put forth an argument and come up with some nonsense instead. To claim that I am a "little off" is laughable.
Here is the question: Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
It's a straightforward question, would you like to try answering it?
Just read what the scientists say. It's possible to transmit the virus even though you've taken the vaccine.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
georgie48
()
Date: January 3, 2021 00:29
Quote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doing
research, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.
Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.
The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 3, 2021 01:07
Quote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
slewanQuote
daspyknowsQuote
MileHighQuote
BeastQuote
MileHighQuote
GasLightStreet
What you are losing, or have lost, is the ability to understand that opinions are not facts. Rationale stops when ridiculousness enters the picture. A fantastic display of that is that you think just because one gets the vaccine that they can not transmit the virus and therefor won't need to continue to wear a mask.
I will not be acting in such an ignorant and arrogant way if or once I get the vaccine.
Since you don't seem to grasp something, there is zero reason to assume anything based on the past will be present with this coronavirus. There has no been enough time for that to be clearly established. Elements, sure, but nothing has turned out to be what was thought. It's because it's not a human virus. People need to stop acting like it is.
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
I'm sure you are well aware that by using a search engine you can instantly find authoritative answers given by immunologists/virologists and other scientists to those questions. Are you one of those or are you a layperson who knows better than them?
That's out of the scope of this discussion. But for what it's worth I am very confident that what I am saying as a lay person is pretty much correct. I am just stating what I believe is common knowledge. I don't believe that Covid-19 is some kind of magic monkeywrench that is going to overturn what we already know about viruses. I am smelling fake news. The mechanism for the Covid-19 virus is essentially the same as that of other viruses.
We will see what GasLightStreet has to say.
Wow. Just to be clear here I will list a series of viruses that affect humans. Can you confirm they behave the same way?
Covid-19
Influenza (lots of different versions of influenza)
Chicken Pox
Polio
Measles
HIV
Syphilis
HPV
Anthrax
Hepatitis (A, B and C)
Rabies
Ebola
Dengue Fever
Endogenous retroviruses
These are all viruses, some deadly some not, some easily transmissible, some not, Some curable permanently, some curable temporarily and some incurable.
You have forgotten the virus causing smallpox, which was eradicated through successful vaccination campaigns around the world by the late 70's / early 80's.
Which shows that it's possible to eradicate a virus!
Good point. Missed that one. The virus still exists in labs so there is still a slight risk. For every virus that gets eradicated tis one that vaccines have yet to work like HIV.
right, but HIV is somehow under controll. At least catching HIV is no longer a death sentence (at least not in rich countries)
Post infection anti viral meds. Expensive and have side effects but better than death.
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
daspyknows
()
Date: January 3, 2021 01:11
Quote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
georgie48Quote
MileHighQuote
KoenQuote
MileHigh
Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus.
Please explain to me how the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal that this somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore.
[www.cdc.gov]
Neither question is answered in your link. This is the kind of "bot" thing that I am talking about.
Your first question:
You must have read that covid-19 is a corona type virus. The influenza virus is not. You and I walk on the street and bounce into eachother. Possible outcome could be that we both say sorry and continue our own way. Now, again we both walk on the street, but this time I have surrounded my body with sharp spikes. We bounce into eachother. Result is that your body is full with holes and blood seeps out everywhere. Outcome ... you end up in hospital and I just walk on to my next victim.
The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. Our bodies have to make antibodies to tackle a virus. They kill the viruses and you're happy again for a while. The body can "store" an access of antibodies for some time (an then you are immune). The making of antibodies to tackle a corona type virus appears to be more complex and those antibodies differ from those used to tackle "smooth" viruses. Possibly the former type antibodies are less stable and can not hold on in your body as long as the latter type antibodies. In other words immunity length can be (considerably) different. Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. The final 20 viruses may be dead after three months and you are immune (for how long?).
Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. It, unfortunately, takes time to get a good picture on this. In any way, being immune for three months is still far better than not being immune because one refuses vaccination.
Your second question:
In the Mogave desert in Californië you may run into a scorpion that kills you with one sting in no time. In that same desert there live very small animals which are totally immune for a sting of that same scorpion! They even eat them. How come? The poison from the scorpion that enters our body may be (don't take the figure literally) 1 microgram per liter of your blood. That same 1 microgram also enters the blood of that tiny animal (I will look up what name that animal has). The amount of blood is 5% of what we have in our body. Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive.
Same with viruses. A (for us deadly) virus that lives in the body of a bat has no effect on the well being of that bat (I want to add that our body hosts thousands of viruses that have no ill-making let alone killing effect on us). The bat also hosts many different viruses that have no effect on the bat. Many of the bat's viruses are very different from our own viruses and very much is not yet known about how bat virusses come about in the body of that bat and so it's very difficult to even know/understand their impact on us humans. There is a lot of research going on about this, but a problem is that one thing "we" have learned is that because we know so little, we can't just use humans as experimental ginnypigs. So ... we use animals to study. And that creates another uncertaincy. I mentioned the case of the scorpion. A human body is not the body of a desert mouse?
Now, take the common cold virus, we know soooo much about it already for sooo long a time, but still there is no simple medication that can prevent us from getting the cold at all !?!?! It can't be that difficult, right? Such a medication could make the farmacy industry even more rich, but ....
Science is not like eating a tasty cake, it is (or can be in complex cases) hard and very patient labour. Believe me, I know.
Truly, I feel for you, because scientists are not always the people who can explain their results in words that can be understood by ordinary people. Among those ordinary people are a group named journalists/reporters. Too often they pretend to understand what scientists try to tell, but my oh my, I've read too many dreadful articles which basically proof that they are just also ... ordinary people.
Okay, so you have constructed some narratives to explain your reasoning. I am a lay person when it comes to this stuff and you are a lay person also, right?
First question:
<<< The human body (read cells), (including the antibody system) responds differently to a virus surrounded by "spikes" than to a "smooth" virus. >>>
Do you really know this or does it just make for a cool sounding story?
<<< Also, how effective are antibodies? When 80 of 100 viruses are neutralised by antibodies over a period of f.i. two months, still 20 remain. With those 20 it's still possible to infect others. >>>
Here you make a big mistake. There is no such thing as "20 remaining." On a microscopic scale the interior of your body is filled with random motion. Eventually all the individual viruses will bump into an antibody. Random chance acts in the body's favour.
<<< Virologists are worried about the effectiveness of antibodies that tackle Covid-19. >>>
I have never heard this. Just to be clear, it's not "antibodies," rather it's a specific antibody that the immune system has developed to kill this specific Covid-19 virus. Plus ultimately this is a binary situation, the virus is either killed or not killed. If the body has to throw more antibodies at the problem, presumably that's what it will do.
Certainly we don't have data on how long immunity will last for this particular virus. However, it's a known fact that in many cases your antibody production factories can give you lifetime immunity.
So, as far as I am concerned my question, "Please explain to me how if you have been vaccinated and you have immunity that you can still transmit the virus" has not been answered. It's reasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that we could get lifetime immunity and not transmit the virus. But we just don't have the data. We can only try to make wise inferences based on past experience.
Second question:
<<< Still, we die, the tiny creature remains perfectly happily alive. >>>
This is explained by the mechanism of evolution.
You didn't answer my question. You give us a story about bats and how bats are different from humans. It still doesn't answer my question.
"How the fact that this virus presumably came from an animal somehow makes our understanding of how viruses operate is not applicable anymore" remains unanswered.
A virus is just a single-stranded piece of DNA surrounded by a protection layer of fats. It's essentially the same thing if it comes from an animal or a human. A virus from an animal that leaps to a human will have the same lifecycle as a native human virus. They both exist in the same environment and the body will work to develop antibodies against them. My feeling is it's just another example of non-scientific hysterical rhetoric coming from journalists and even the medical professionals themselves because of the political and legal pressure they are being subjected to. The way the Covid-19 virus operates inside the body will be essentially the same as the way other viruses operate inside the body.
Okay, you classify yourself as "lay person". Since I had the impression you were, I used some relatively simple examples. Just for your information (not to play big time), I am a University educated research analytical chemist (not a guy who sells stuff in some pharmacy store). Part of my work, apart from doing
research, was to train medical students (including future virologists), pharmaceutical students, biology students, veterenary students how to deal with data obtained from research. To put it simple: hoe to learn to ANALYSE. You may think that's easy, well let me tell you that more recent I have dealt with experienced doctors and some are (still) not open to the fact that data are not just a set of figures, but that they are INFORMATION.
Do you dare to honestly tell on this forum what your background/history is? "Lay person" is a cheap way to introduce yourself. Or are you afraid to get sued? Europe, Australisia, Japan are not ruined by an army of sueing laywers, so researchers don't need to be afraid like maybe in the USA. Your theory on research and politics smells very paranoid and it's a very cheap way to hide yourself in your "lay person" self. You say you dig science 100%, but science itself is hardly ever 100%. In order to make progress sometimes (unfortunately!) parameters and/or weighted assumptions have to be made. Over time, based on progressing experience, those parameters/assumptions have to be corrected or (that would then be great) can be deleted altogether. But maybe this is too difficult for a "lay person"?
Then your second question. Did you create that question yourself or did you "quote" it from someone/somewhere else? Aparently I am not the only one here who wonders what you mean with "not applicable anymore"? Where did you get that statement? Is that your own "conclusion" or did you copy it from some article? The way "NOT applicable anymore" is part of your question, is indeed "lay person" like (not specifically referring to you, because even among researchers you can find infinitly stupid people) An intelligent researcher would/should not formulate a question that way. Nothing is black-or-white, so NOT applicable makes the question a stupid, not science based question. No wonder you don't get the answer you "are looking for". Make sure, if you copy from science, that you know what you're doing. It would suit you.
Some of your answers to what I wrote makes me wonder where you did get your statements from. "It's not antibodies, but antibody" ??? So what you say is that there are no viruses in your body, but only "virus". Get real, each virus is attacked/ destroyed individually. Study microscope movies and you will see that there is nothing random about it. Really try to find microscopic scale movies, where you can clearly see what happens! So, it's not antibody, but antibodies. Your "random" story is total rubbish. Do you actually know the meaning of random?
The "smooth virus" vs "spikes" is not a fancy story (like your "random motion" crap). If you are really digging science, then you would have found microscopic scale movies on how viruses are attacked by antibodies (not by antibody, stupid) a long time ago and you would not have created those rediculous "counter questions", which in fact are no questions.
Anyway, I assumed you were a lay person, so I came up with simple explanations, but even those you don't seem to understand, judging from your "counter questions".
Still, I hope for you that somehow you are a happy person, who is not so stupid to ignore reality to eventually get "f*cked" by Covid-19 or any other virus.
And for your information, try to look up what Sarcoidosis is. It happened to me some thirty years ago. It will tell you how VIRUSES in a human body can work (for sure no random crap). If you can understand that, there is hope. I was cured by my 42 years young strong body capable of making plenty of antibodies (not body), WITHOUT the help of medication, within 9 months. Since I wanted to be master of my own destiny I studied every detail of that illness and made my choices together with the knowledge of qualified (not afraid to be sued) medical experts who guided me. And about that 20% statement (I hope you understand it could be 18 or 23 for that matter), around a little over 1 year after my cure, there turned out to be some viruses "left" which attacked my body again, but that attack was neutralised within four weeks. Aparently plenty of healthy antibodies left. After that never any problem again. Viruses, nasty creatures. When our globe is consumed by the sun, they will still float around somewhere in our solar system.
The good news (at least for me and those who love me) ... I'm still around, just like The Rolling Stones
Re: Coronavirus COVID-19 status around the world
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: January 3, 2021 01:28
Cognitive issues... we all shine on, sure, but some a lot less than others.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
La la la la lah lah lah lahhhhhh.
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