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MisterDDDD

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stone4ever
You must suspect by now the statistics you and others keep coming up with are questionable, if you did some research ( not from the usual suspects ) you might have realised by now that only 6% of those death figures in the US are a direct consequence of covid, this virus isn't tangible, it's being held up by the media, it's fear tactics, all your information is coming from MSM, they are complicit, it's an illusion, 8000 people die in the USA every day, yes three million every year, it's so easy to pass off 10% of those deaths as covid, please don't go to factcheck, Wiki etc, you are being lied to, can't you see that. I guess it's too big a mind @#$%& for most of you here to believe that the media are lying to you, i understand that, i was the same, but then you see it and you realise how deep it goes.
Oh well this is just my opinion, I should leave now, it's disappointing seeing how many have got sucked into this, it's genius really, they covered all the angles until they got you, and by the time they got you, you're already thinking differently.

No offense, but if someone at this stage of the pandemic is still questioning the validity or seriousness of it, they are either intentionally lying, or a complete and utter idiot.
Either way, the days of arguing or citing statistics etc with someone like that are over for most of us.
Good luck.

Well said. Can’t argue with stupid. Or deep state conspiracy theory nonsense



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-31 02:00 by yorkshirestone.

Meanwhile, Israel is so far winning hands down with its vaccine rollout, having vaccinated half a million people in just nine days.

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stone4ever

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Witness

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stone4ever
You must suspect by now the statistics you and others keep coming up with are questionable, if you did some research ( not from the usual suspects ) you might have realised by now that only 6% of those death figures in the US are a direct consequence of covid, this virus isn't tangible, it's being held up by the media, it's fear tactics, all your information is coming from MSM, they are complicit, it's an illusion, 8000 people die in the USA every day, yes three million every year, it's so easy to pass off 10% of those deaths as covid, please don't go to factcheck, Wiki etc, you are being lied to, can't you see that. I guess it's too big a mind @#$%& for most of you here to believe that the media are lying to you, i understand that, i was the same, but then you see it and you realise how deep it goes.
Oh well this is just my opinion, I should leave now, it's disappointing seeing how many have got sucked into this, it's genius really, they covered all the angles until they got you, and by the time they got you, you're already thinking differently.

This quite long post arrived one minute after mine. Who are you sddressing?

Dapsyknows

You are a moron. Get the name right.

So 8,000 people die a day and 3000 of them are from Covid. Is that not a problem or are the people really not dead?

Maybe if you get a bad case of Covid you might understand but then again its hard to fix stupid.

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stone4ever

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DandelionPowderman


I don't understand why it has to be a direct consequence of covid. Isn't it just as serious when this virus make people (like me) with underlying conditions croak? It's like that for a big part of the remaining 94 percent. They would have lived, hadn't it been for covid.

It's called a selective reading of numbers, mate

I know what you have been through and my heart and prayers go out to you, but you wouldn't want to catch the flu with a weakened immune system, truth be told this is very like the flu. It's suspiciously mirrors the flu, let's face it, this is flu season and I'm sure you had a flu jab and I'm sure you will get the vaccine next week.
I will just say this, fear is the worse possible thing to the immune system, it puts it into fight or flight, this is probably not a good subject to focus on, just take good care of yourself and think positive thoughts mate.
Have a wonderful New Year DP

If you really think Covid is like the flu come talk to me after a bad case of it. I have had both and if a bad cold is a 1, a bad flu is a 10 then a serious case of Covid is a 100. Then again, some people just don't get it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-31 02:56 by daspyknows.

I now know a fourth person in the little town I live in that has COIVD - my ex-girlfriend that has MS!

She got it from? What else? Christmas family gathering that apparently two people knew they had it, at least as far as I know right now. I saw her the other day at the seawall but didn't get close to her.

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Alternative view, Witness, not facts

"Alternative facts" has obtained its place in the language, by how one reacts to its use.

And who presented that phrase? I rememberthat interview very well. It's a sensation that this phrase has been obtained at all

A fact can't both be the correct thing and an alternative claim that isn't correct, right?

The term has become an Orwellian concept. In that meaning, it is revealing to use it, applied as towards alleged facts as in this thread.

I know, but the result is that the power of the word 'fact' vanishes in the process...

It does not if you operate with 'facts' and 'alternative facts' because the latter concept has been allotted with a widely different status. It is not the term "alternative facts" that is the problem during communication, but that some speakers seek refuge into them.

Facts are facts. There are no alternative facts. It's a constructed term. It's empty, aka non-factual.

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman

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Witness

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DandelionPowderman
Alternative view, Witness, not facts

"Alternative facts" has obtained its place in the language, by how one reacts to its use.

And who presented that phrase? I rememberthat interview very well. It's a sensation that this phrase has been obtained at all

A fact can't both be the correct thing and an alternative claim that isn't correct, right?

The term has become an Orwellian concept. In that meaning, it is revealing to use it, applied as towards alleged facts as in this thread.

I know, but the result is that the power of the word 'fact' vanishes in the process...

It does not if you operate with 'facts' and 'alternative facts' because the latter concept has been allotted with a widely different status. It is not the term "alternative facts" that is the problem during communication, but that some speakers seek refuge into them.

Facts are facts. There are no alternative facts. It's a constructed term. It's empty, aka non-factual.

Due to the rules here, I can't tell the name of the woman who used the term and in which situation. But confronted with the words "alternative facts", one opponent answered: "Look alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods".

That has become more or less the definition. It is not a constructed term, but rather a misconstructed one.

Don't think It is complimentary if I say that I do not want to accept some saying and call it alternative facts. Quite the contrary.

^ Alternative facts are lies. Nothing more, nothing less.

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GasLightStreet
I now know a fourth person in the little town I live in that has COIVD - my ex-girlfriend that has MS!

She got it from? What else? Christmas family gathering that apparently two people knew they had it, at least as far as I know right now. I saw her the other day at the seawall but didn't get close to her.

Stay safe Skippy.

My local congressman-elect died of Covid last night, aged 41 (I didn't vote for him, but he was still a human being with a wife and two small children), and now we have to have a special election. He had all the fancy drugs, to no avail, and died about two weeks after being diagnosed, if that. The head of the medical facility where he died said that he died of Covid, "nothing else." No underlying conditions. To repeat, a healthy 41 year old, the virus got him in less than two weeks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-31 08:37 by Aquamarine.

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stone4ever
You must suspect by now the statistics you and others keep coming up with are questionable, if you did some research ( not from the usual suspects ) you might have realised by now that only 6% of those death figures in the US are a direct consequence of covid, this virus isn't tangible, it's being held up by the media, it's fear tactics, all your information is coming from MSM, they are complicit, it's an illusion, 8000 people die in the USA every day, yes three million every year, it's so easy to pass off 10% of those deaths as covid, please don't go to factcheck, Wiki etc, you are being lied to, can't you see that. I guess it's too big a mind @#$%& for most of you here to believe that the media are lying to you, i understand that, i was the same, but then you see it and you realise how deep it goes.
Oh well this is just my opinion, I should leave now, it's disappointing seeing how many have got sucked into this, it's genius really, they covered all the angles until they got you, and by the time they got you, you're already thinking differently.

Repeating a lie does not make it more true. The 6% is taken out of context by an extreme right web site, twisting a CDC report, pretending the pandemic is not a big issue. Sure it is a big issue. Please do not repeat these lies.

Bjornulf

The other thing to note is if you look at the States in America that had full on lockdowns and continued with them, and then you look at the States that eased the lockdowns you don't see greater covid deaths in those States that eased off and went back to work and school etc.
Are we seeing real proof that lockdowns work, I'm not sure, I'm asking if someone knows more on this subject. I've read 24 studies and they suggest not.
It's difficult to prove one way or another.

Compare the numbers of infected and deceased in Sweden (no lockdown), Norway (lockdown) and Finland (lockdown), and you'll find a striking (and heartwrenching) difference, Riffie.

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stone4ever
Let's be generous and put that CDC figure at 25% instead of 6% and use it as a generalisation across the world, as in being an average.
So out of the 1.8 million deaths from covid world-wide just under half a million were the direct result from covid.
It's interesting to notice that half a million people die from flu and influenza each year on average,
Be really generous and put half those 1.8 million deaths as a direct result of covid, that makes it twice as deadly as flu. Would you willingly and knowingly continue to destroy world economies and cause untold poverty and misery to billions of people for something twice as bad as flu and influenza, even 3 or 4 times worse than flu, knowing how covid was treated meant so many people didn't get important cancer scans and treatments and untold deaths as a consequence of avoiding hospitals through fear of catching covid.

Stone4ever, you information is incorrect. Last flu season "scored" 32.000 deaths, not half a million in the USA. 61.000 during the worst ever season 2017/2018 since the Spanish flu a Century ago. If you seriously study the data you will know that the month of December had more deadly victims by Covid-19 than the above full season 61.000 of 2017/2018. Also, people who died indirectly because of Covid-19 are also Covid-19 victims. In another mail I mentioned that in my country (highly developed, rich, very good medical cicumstances, etc.) this year there was an overkill of 13.000 ABOVE the officially registered almost 12.000 Covid-19 deaths. So more than twice! So being "generous" is nothing more than fooling yourself. Making comparisons with other terrible diseases like cancers or even drug abuse is silly. A virus acts totally different from cancer cells. The former jump out all over the place from human to human to animals, etc.,cancer cells and dangerous drugs ruin the body of an idividual and is not externally contagious (it can be triggered by external causes, but you're talking about a totally different pace).
Maybe you enjoy "upsetting" people, but the only thing you're doing is placing yourself among the 30% stupid people. I don't think you are, but read and study more objectively, before speaking out nonsence.

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stone4ever
The other thing to note is if you look at the States in America that had full on lockdowns and continued with them, and then you look at the States that eased the lockdowns you don't see greater covid deaths in those States that eased off and went back to work and school etc.
Are we seeing real proof that lockdowns work, I'm not sure, I'm asking if someone knows more on this subject. I've read 24 studies and they suggest not.
It's difficult to prove one way or another.

USA did never have a full lock down in reality. How come the current president have been running parties, rallies, lots and lots of covid-19 denial people never wearing masks, ignoring science and social distancing. Many states in USA have been doing lock down. Yet many people in USA have been obstructing the hard work of avoiding the pandemic fighting. That is why more than 3,000 people in USA die from Covid-19 these days. Not because of lock down rules in place by governors, but because many ignore these rules, due to ideological reasons, being fans of leaders who ignore the pandemic.

In Norway we get a fine of $2,000 if we are more than 10 people at a party. In USA I don't think there is any fine for breaking any covid rules. In Australia it is $20,000 or many months in jail if you break the covid rules. Some times that is the only language some people understand.

Bjornulf

Some posters on here might want to ask themselves why intensive care doctors and others working on the frontline would ever make this stuff up.

In the past few days, intensive care doctors in the UK have become more vocal and here's another one this morning telling it like it is - no doubt because these doctors and their staff are fed up, exhausted and dreading what they might yet have to face. Read the whole article for his stark opinion, which is being reported by many media outlets, but the extracts below give a flavour.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Covid rule-breakers 'have blood on their hands'

People who do not follow social distancing rules or wear masks "have blood on their hands", an intensive care doctor has warned.

Prof Hugh Montgomery told BBC Radio 5 Live hospitals were facing a "tsunami" of Covid cases and he feared it would get worse after New Year's Eve.

He told Radio 5's Rachel Burden it was wrong to blame the surge in cases and deaths on the new variant of coronavirus, which was only "slightly" more transmissible and caused the same symptoms.

"It is making me actually very angry now that people are laying the blame on the virus, and it is not the virus, it is people, people are not washing their hands, they are not wearing their masks," he said.

And he warned anyone not social distancing or following the rules that they "have blood on their hands".

"They are spreading this virus. Other people will spread it and people will die. They won't know they have killed people but they have."

He added: "I am watching whole families getting wiped out here, and it's got to stop."

Prof Montgomery, who was on shift as he gave the interview to 5 Live, said it was "a great myth" that hospitals are being overwhelmed with elderly people.

"The people we are getting are, like the first wave, my age really. I am 58 and I would say half the patients are younger than me. It is middle-aged people or a little bit older that we are getting."

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Beast
...Prof Montgomery, who was on shift as he gave the interview to 5 Live, said it was "a great myth" that hospitals are being overwhelmed with elderly people.

"The people we are getting are, like the first wave, my age really. I am 58 and I would say half the patients are younger than me. It is middle-aged people or a little bit older that we are getting."

This echos Toronto’s Medical Officer of Health who reported 1,069 new cases here yesterday, with over 50% in the 20 - 49 age bracket.

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SomeTorontoGirl

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Beast
...Prof Montgomery, who was on shift as he gave the interview to 5 Live, said it was "a great myth" that hospitals are being overwhelmed with elderly people.

"The people we are getting are, like the first wave, my age really. I am 58 and I would say half the patients are younger than me. It is middle-aged people or a little bit older that we are getting."

This echos Toronto’s Medical Officer of Health who reported 1,069 new cases here yesterday, with over 50% in the 20 - 49 age bracket.

1069 new cases as in hospital admissions or 1069 new cases as in people who tested positive?

Nate

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Nate
1069 new cases as in hospital admissions or 1069 new cases as in people who tested positive?

Nate

New positive diagnoses, I believe. A record, or close to it.

The vaccination "plan" in Florida is a complete fiasco.

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steffialicia
The vaccination "plan" in Florida is a complete fiasco.

Well, if it helps reducing the frustration ... in the Netherlands a bunch of incompetent burocrats have set up a planning and now cover themselves with "excuses" why they are the last of the EU countries to start with vaccination (still: not before January 8 )
A couple of very stubern people in the top are making the show. A show that sucks. Intelligent flexibility was never a part of their education.

Leaving logistics and vaccination programs up to the states is not working because the states do not have the money or the staff to get the job done. What is FEMA doing?!!! Why were Virginia's vaccines reduced?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-12-31 17:03 by tumbled.

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tumbled
Leaving logistics and vaccination programs up to the states is not working because the states do not have the money or the staff to get the job done. What is FEMA doing?!!! Why were Virginia's vaccines reduced?

The USA is a very big country with a complex State system, so difficult to understand for non-Americans. I understand your question filled with frustration.
In the Netherlands they showed the inside of a highly specialised Dutch (!) company, making -80 degrees storage cells. The reporter asked where the meantime finished cells were going to. The manager answered: Germany, France, Finland and some other countries. When the reporter asked which ones were meant for the Netherlands, the man said ..... "we haven't received an order yet from the Dutch government". Aaaggghhhh, incompetent bureaucrats, worse ... (quoting Jagger/Richards):
Let's think of the wavering millions (meantime billions), who need leaders (leading) but get gamblers instead

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georgie48

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tumbled
Leaving logistics and vaccination programs up to the states is not working because the states do not have the money or the staff to get the job done. What is FEMA doing?!!! Why were Virginia's vaccines reduced?

The USA is a very big country with a complex State system, so difficult to understand for non-Americans.

It's difficult for Americans to understand too quite frankly. Basically there are federal laws and state laws, and there's restrictions barring federal overreach, and some of this falls in that area and is left up to the states to decide how to handle.

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Stoneage
Okay, shortly about Sweden. Approximately 8,500 deaths by now. About 90 percent of them over the age of 70. Population, about 10,3 million. Relatively stable situations at hospitals and intensive care units.
We have a cluster situation in some large populated areas though. Like Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. Our state epidemiologist's status is lower than what it used to be.

One problem is that politicians lean heavily on expert authorities now. So, opposition is very weak. I think one key factor to the, relatively, high numbers was the slow start in the beginning of the pandemic.
I think that is the main factor. There are some factors which divides us from other Nordic countries though. Like the fact that Sweden is a immigrant nation by now. More than a fourth of the population are immigrants. Preferably from developing countries. Immigrants stands for one half of the deaths accounted for. Another factor is the privatization of the health care sector. Especially in Stockholm.
Privatization often leads to less care but more profit. So, that's enough for now. Did you get some answers, Kovach?

Not sure which answers specifically your referring to but in general I get lots of good info here! :-)

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Beast
Some posters on here might want to ask themselves why intensive care doctors and others working on the frontline would ever make this stuff up.

In the past few days, intensive care doctors in the UK have become more vocal and here's another one this morning telling it like it is - no doubt because these doctors and their staff are fed up, exhausted and dreading what they might yet have to face. Read the whole article for his stark opinion, which is being reported by many media outlets, but the extracts below give a flavour.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Covid rule-breakers 'have blood on their hands'

People who do not follow social distancing rules or wear masks "have blood on their hands", an intensive care doctor has warned.

Prof Hugh Montgomery told BBC Radio 5 Live hospitals were facing a "tsunami" of Covid cases and he feared it would get worse after New Year's Eve.

He told Radio 5's Rachel Burden it was wrong to blame the surge in cases and deaths on the new variant of coronavirus, which was only "slightly" more transmissible and caused the same symptoms.

"It is making me actually very angry now that people are laying the blame on the virus, and it is not the virus, it is people, people are not washing their hands, they are not wearing their masks," he said.

And he warned anyone not social distancing or following the rules that they "have blood on their hands".

"They are spreading this virus. Other people will spread it and people will die. They won't know they have killed people but they have."

He added: "I am watching whole families getting wiped out here, and it's got to stop."

Prof Montgomery, who was on shift as he gave the interview to 5 Live, said it was "a great myth" that hospitals are being overwhelmed with elderly people.

"The people we are getting are, like the first wave, my age really. I am 58 and I would say half the patients are younger than me. It is middle-aged people or a little bit older that we are getting."

There are more stories also from other countries about doctors, nurses, hospitals etc. working at the limit. They all are working very very hard to save lifes and they know what is really going on. They see it every day and night.

It feels like a race between the virus and the vaccines. Who will win?

The virus can be viewed as an unstoppable exponential fire. The rate of increase is proportional to the number of people that are currently infected. It's a classic positive feedback loop. We have all seen the graphs.

Let's hope and pray we win the battle because if not you end up with whomever did not get the vaccination infected with the virus. Then there will be a horrible shake-out period until the dust finally settles.

Covid-19 is NOT a story about elderly people taking up space and beds in hospitals. It is NOT a story about old people only suffering from covid-19.

There are ethical rules of how doctors and nurses work. Way back in March this year I remember one doctor (in Norway) said that very old people age 90+ or so did not get oxygen due to ethical rules. Also, they will not be on intensive care units or ventilators. They do not have a strong body that will survive an intensive care unit or ventilator, and it is unethical to treat them with extensive medical procedures.

Also, at an age of 90+, I am not sure about the exact age limit really, but most residents in the so called nursing homes, would never be passed on to a hospital for covid-19 emergency treatment. They get the proper care at the nursing home, with pain relief, but they do not end up in intensive care at hospitals, because they have a lower chance of surviving. That is medical ethics, not really exact published rules, but case to case decisions done by the doctors and nurses.

Anyone being at an ICU (Intensive Care Unit) with serious covid-19 problems would be a person under the age of 90. Typically many people at ICU beds are people age in their 60's and 70's. People like me and you, who normally would have many great years ahead of them with their families. Even people in their 40's and 50's are in ICU treatment with covid-19.

Norway are probably European Champion when it comes to very low covid-19 numbers. Still, our numbers are increasing, and yesterday our authorities declared that emergency covid-19 heath workers will now get into the first position of the vaccination queue priority, just following the elderly at nursing homes. This is really telling the story about how serious the situation is. The winter will be long. The numbers of covid-19 cases and deaths will increase. We need every single health worker alive and with good health, in order to fight the pandemic.

Bjornulf

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stone4ever
The other thing to note is if you look at the States in America that had full on lockdowns and continued with them, and then you look at the States that eased the lockdowns you don't see greater covid deaths in those States that eased off and went back to work and school etc.
Are we seeing real proof that lockdowns work, I'm not sure, I'm asking if someone knows more on this subject. I've read 24 studies and they suggest not.
It's difficult to prove one way or another.

Stupidity reigns again. The lockdown only works when people abide by it. When people don't it slows it down but doesn't fully work. Drunk driving is illegal everywhere but people still do it and die (and kill people). Using your approach there should be no enforcement. If you read all your studies from right wing sources of course they say it does nothing.

At this point lockdowns and masks don't "work" because it is just too late to eliminate the virus. In the first wave California had significant reduction in infection and death. In the third wave people didn't care anymore and now it is bad. NY shutting down stopped the spread because people locked down. I know I am wasting my time with you because you are sure your "sources" are right.

I know we should not discuss politics here but I just wanted to point out that New Zealand is already in 2021.
A great example of what can be achieved with a female leader ><

Nate

Nursing Homes are defining how good or bad the covid-19 situation is. Most people at nursing homes are 100% relying on support from the people working at the home. They might be 90+ of age, or they might be in their 60's or 70' or 80's with a serious medical condition. The very first person in Norway to get the Pfeizer vaccine, on Sunday Dec 27, was Svein age 67.

We have two scary stories about covid-19 and nursing homes in Norway:

March/April : Vallerhjemmet, Bærum
Due to bad management, and no control of covid-19, 12 of 23 elderly infected by covid-19 died this spring, i.e. 52% fatality rate.

På dette sykehjemmet har det skjedd tolv coronadødsfall (VG)

November: Villa Skaar Eidsvoll
A narrow building with all the elderly wandering around, no locked doors, 9 of 23 elderly infected by covid-19 died, i.e. 39% fatality rate.

Alle fikk korona – ni er døde. Slik snudde alt i løpet av to dager på Villa Skaar Valstad (TV)

Success or failure with the pandemic is done at many levels. One of the most important tasks is to protect the elderly, especially in nursing homes. Then of course it is important to keep the general level of covid-19 in the entire area down to a minimum, otherwise covid-19 will find it's way into nursing homes and all over, to people who try to protect themselves from the fatal disease.

Bjornulf