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TornAndFried
Mick is more interested in partying with his posh friends and banging young women than working on songs in the studio. Whatever creativity and concentration he has left is wasted in his need to stay socially relevant.
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Gazza
If I was able to do all that at 56, let alone 76, you wouldn't catch me within a hundred miles of a studio.
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Bashlets
We always assume it’s Jagger holding things up. Could be Keith for all we know
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Rocky DijonQuote
Bashlets
We always assume it’s Jagger holding things up. Could be Keith for all we know
Well it seems certain we would have had two new Stones tracks as a single in 2017 if Keith had been as willing as Charlie and Ronnie were to participate.
Allegedly, Mick brought enough finished songs for an album or two to the table in 2015. He had commented that what the Stones didn't want would probably go to a solo album but he wouldn't think about that until after the Stones "thing" was done.
It certainly seems that it's Keith who jams endlessly with loads of riffs and half-formed songs (the unfinished work that's been described to us mainly by Don Was) while Mick is the one who finishes every idea with either Matt Clifford or Dave Stewart and has a highly-polished demo with programmed parts in place before he reaches the studio.
If that is true, we certainly could have had the planned double album with a new Stones disc plus BLUE AND LONESOME in 2016, but Keith didn't want to do as he was told and just overdub Mick's pre-production demos this time. He wanted them to create music together and not just go along with the program since Mick had "rewritten his part" as he complained in "Infamy."
Ronnie mentioned earlier this year that in spite of the sessions they've done as a band over the last few years, Mick and Keith are still working on getting their Jagger-Richards chemistry back.
That would seem to fit the narrative of what went wrong. They hit a wall in December 2015 alright. A wall named Keith who didn't want the last Stones album to be "place your riff here" directions.
Relationships take years to crack sometimes. For Bill, the resentment started early. Not being able to write for the band. The loss of group songwriting credits when composing in the studio once they signed with Klein added fuel to the fire. Resentment over The Glimmer Twins taking over from Jimmy Miller led to his side solo career and to his making Taylor believe it was all falling apart rapidly.
For the rest of the band, it was the situation Keith's Toronto drug bust put them in when Rupert was negotiating with EMI and Atlantic in 1977. To protect the contract, The Rolling Stones were contractually defined as Mick Jagger and two others the public recognized as band members. This was a necessary loophole considering Keith was either headed to prison or as a drug casualty when they were trying to convince Stigwood, EMI, and Ahmet Ertegun they were still worth millions despite likely losing half of the songwriting, production, and guitar team. That's also why it was necessary to stockpile material at the initial Pathe-Marconi sessions in case three more albums had to be finished without Keith.
The downsizing of their organization began in earnest with Jane Rose among others being dismissed by Mick and Rupert. Feeling vulnerable, everyone except Mick suddenly ended up under separate management. Keith hiring Jane was an obvious slap in the face to Mick. Ronnie signed with Nick Cowan. Bill with Eric Gardner. Charlie with Sherry Daly. Now management needed to be contacted individually to arrange band meetings. You can understand the band feeling Rupert was Mick's guy, but he was just protecting his investment when Keith's recklessness endangered the entire organization. The rest felt they were put on notice as replaceable. Soon enough Earl McGrath would be a victim of these politics and driven out by Mick.
Billy Preston's management looked at the writing on the wall after the Toronto bust and had demanded either band membership for Billy or a substantial increase in compensation. Ronnie was more than happy to bring Mac into the fold to replace him, but Mac brought his own issues. Not only was he a partier like Bobby and therefore a potential liability for Keith and Ronnie, but Mac had a resentment of Rod Stewart and all front men which quickly extended to Mick and was taken up by Keith and Ronnie with the Brenda jokes and LV Syndrome remarks.
According to Stu's interview with Bill German in early 1981, Charlie was going to tour with The New Barbarians until "it turned into such bullshit." What that means can be seen in Mick's response in 25 x 5 to why Keith's reaction to Mick going solo was "completely unnecessary since he had already done his New Barbarians thing." Somewhere between Marvin Mitchelson hitting Mick hard with both Bianca and Marsha Hunt in 1978, Keith's hiring of Jane Rose as personal management, Ronnie's solo tour improbably becoming an arena tour because people believed Mick, Dylan, or Neil Young were likely to turn up as guest front men -- somewhere in there Mick decided he didn't want to do it any more and that he was tired of providing for others who didn't pull their weight, bitched all the time (Charlie), were unappreciative of his tireless efforts as manager and in the studio, and were now becoming very vocal in criticizing his creative contributions (Keith).
Rupert's book mentions his difficulty convincing Mick to tour in 1981 saying it wouldn't have happened without the financial hit of Bianca and Marsha Hunt's suits against him. Mick told "High Times" during the EMOTIONAL RESCUE sessions that he wanted to do a solo tour. He would talk to George Thorogood and Stevie Ray Vaughan about potentially touring with him in 1982 and 1983, respectively. More seriously, he went after Steve Vai as soon as DIRTY WORK was finished. December 1985, "Musician" reporting on CBS' trade show said Mick's solo tour would be announced in 1986, but they couldn't talk about it until after the Stones album. Keith had dinner with each of the other Stones in early 1984 to discuss Mick's "betrayal." The band met multiple times that year and pulled Ronnie out of the meetings after the first. It does appear a potential break up was actually discussed. All of this took years to crack apart and what we have today is just the latest iteration.
It is claimed Prince Rupert had to take calls (how serious is questionable) about whether or not they could replace Mick with either Womack or Covay. Rupert sardonically suggested Terence Trent D'arby (another of his clients). Wyman thought D'arby was a good idea and had a conversation with Daltrey as well to gauge his interest. John Blake ran with some of this in the British tabloid press after Wyman spoke to him during the whole PRIMITIVE COOL album/tour fiasco while Mick spun out of control with Roger Davies trying and failing to get Mick on a package tour with Bowie and Tina Turner. Was any of this serious or just venting? Hard to say.
Somewhere in there, coked-up conversations in New York in 1985 had Ronnie believing he and Keith were reviving The New Barbarians with Jordan, Drayton, and Ivan Neville and would back each other on solo albums before touring together. Jane Rose was wise enough to know Ronnie's condition made him a bad playmate for Keith if her job was to rehabilitate Keith's brain-damaged junkie image and earn him a major label solo deal. She pressed the right buttons by convincing him to let Ronnie go because if they stuck together, the Stones had no chance of reuniting for the foreseeable future if Ronnie took sides. Unfortunately, Ronnie and Keith's friendship suffered permanent damage as a consequence. They were never as close after spitting in 1986.
Allegedly, Rupert had to take an angry call from Mick about replacing Keith in 1988, but again if true it was probably just Mick venting and there was no real possibility of doing so. Many people were used and discarded as pawns until the two massive egos could work together again and make amazing money starting with Michael Cohl. After B2B failed to match VOODOO LOUNGE, the model would never be the same.
Whether or not Keith's creativity was drying up because of too much over-indulgence for far too long, Mick no longer had the patience to spend a year in the studio with him. Starting with LICKS they followed a more efficient model. That's the long and short of their fractured relationship until the wall was hit at British Grove. The time since has been trying to make it happen again. Both egos are huge. Both want the same thing -- The Rolling Stones on their own terms.
And if ALTERNATIVE NATION quotes chunks of this in their amateurish click-bait news articles that keep turning up on my cell phone, please include the remark that ALTERNATIVE NATION makes WEEKLY WORLD NEWS look like THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
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jlowe
Rocky, you mention 'everyone except Mick ended up under seperate Management'..
But does Mick have a 'Manager' as such?
I have always thought that since Klein left he has been his own man.
Prince Rupert managed the finances and contracts, for the group. McGrath the Record label and so on.
I have never seen a Jane Rose Manager type in the background. Mick has P.A's of course to sort out his personal life.
Like Macca and Dylan...they have a 'team' behind the scenes but they dont take any guidance from anyone...or so it seems.
Great message, by the way. Very illuminating.
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CJFP
Going of Woody's comments, I think we could be listening to this album by May. Then hearing it live in July. 2020 could be a good year!
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Rocky DijonQuote
jlowe
Rocky, you mention 'everyone except Mick ended up under seperate Management'..
But does Mick have a 'Manager' as such?
I have always thought that since Klein left he has been his own man.
Prince Rupert managed the finances and contracts, for the group. McGrath the Record label and so on.
I have never seen a Jane Rose Manager type in the background. Mick has P.A's of course to sort out his personal life.
Like Macca and Dylan...they have a 'team' behind the scenes but they dont take any guidance from anyone...or so it seems.
Great message, by the way. Very illuminating.
My take was that Rupert (and now Joyce) fulfill the same role as Klein but with less powers (they don't own the band's copyrights or publishing, but they still negotiate with labels and tour promoters on their behalf). And almost certainly Joyce signed an NDA that Rupert was not required to do way back when.
One of the most interesting parts of Rupert's book was reading how he was a major player in sorting out the Pink Floyd name rights between Waters vs. Gilmour and Mason. It was apparently Rupert's suggestion that Rick Wright would give them the leverage needed to make a claim that would stand up in court. It would also appear that Rupert was very involved in setting up the 1987 Floyd tour and, consequently, STEEL WHEELS / URBAN JUNGLE which in many ways followed the Floyd model.
Rupert's role was financial, not creative - find the right deal, find the right people, but his guidance was invaluable. I'm sure Brian's Estate had to deal with Rupert as much as Klein and I would love to see the details there, but of course we never will. Considering Rupert just their "banker" (as Mick dismissed him when they fell out) does a grave disservice to the man who steered them through every deal since they first began carefully disentangling with Klein in 1969.
I would say Victoria Pearman fulfilled a Jane Rose-type function for Mick for quite a few years. There's also Tony King who stayed very much in the background for decades. He was Andrew's hire who then worked directly for the band once they left Klein. He became an independent and still represented them for a very long time. I believe their association did come to an end though. Marshall Chess, Earl McGrath, Art Collins, etc. could all tell (or when they were alive at any rate) amazing stories.
Another one is Eric Easton (or whatever his real name was) who falls off the face of the earth when Klein comes in. One would have thought given the huge success of the band that he would have returned to be interviewed or write books. He appeared to take a powder almost like a witness relocation program. Klein was quite the intimidating figure in his day, as Sam Cooke would doubtless tell us if he could. It's always interesting to me that all the Brian conspiracy theories never involve Klein. I also found it interesting that Bobby Womack never appeared to discuss Klein despite his very close involvement with him and the fact that right up to both their deaths, Klein still owned a good chunk of Bobby's early copyrights and publishing. These are things I'd love to know. Klein is a fascinating figure, but I suspect the best stories died with him.
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TornAndFried
And with shows averaging 19 songs now do you really want 2 or 3 of them to be new ones?
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Rocky Dijon
Whether or not Keith's creativity was drying up because of too much over-indulgence for far too long, Mick no longer had the patience to spend a year in the studio with him. Starting with LICKS they followed a more efficient model. That's the long and short of their fractured relationship until the wall was hit at British Grove. The time since has been trying to make it happen again. Both egos are huge. Both want the same thing -- The Rolling Stones on their own terms.
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JordyLicks96
This really does seem like a BRIDGES TO BABYLON type situation again between Mick and Keith. Although, this seems to be far worse. I mean when was the last time Keith truly had his flavor on a Stones album? I'd say VOODOO LOUNGE. B2B was basically an all Mick album with 3 Keith songs thrown in
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Rocky Dijon
If it was a question of Keith being difficult, then it's interesting that Steve Jordan, Waddy, and Ivan have no difficulty staying loyal to him. Even with over 20 years between albums, those guys play or cut with Keith pretty regularly. They're actual friends. I'm not certain Keith really has close relationships in the Stones any more. He says nice things about Charlie always, but when did they last hang out? When did Keith last go to one of Charlie's jazz gigs (as he used to)?
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Rocky DijonQuote
JordyLicks96
This really does seem like a BRIDGES TO BABYLON type situation again between Mick and Keith. Although, this seems to be far worse. I mean when was the last time Keith truly had his flavor on a Stones album? I'd say VOODOO LOUNGE. B2B was basically an all Mick album with 3 Keith songs thrown in
Disagree about B2B, I'd say it's about 50/50. The tracks with the Dust Brothers or Danny Saber or the one started by Babyface are Mick's. That's six tracks and all the singles. The others with just Don Was and Rob Fraboni are Keith's.
The album was born out of two abandoned solo albums in 1996. They then worked on each other's tracks. Something like "Flip the Switch" and "Low Down" or "Too Tight" have Winos blueprints all over them. The sound is all drum and guitar contrasts with those tribal vocals that start with TALK IS CHEAP and peaked with WINGLESS ANGELS. "Anyway You Look At It" with its haunting guitar melody and namecheck for "Point of View" (Keith's home in Jamaica and also referenced in "Make No Mistake") is a Keith song. "Always Suffering" with those vocals and Pierre's close involvement is one of Keith's. That's eight for Keith.
I'm not suggesting there's no Mick DNA in the ones Mick sings that I'm calling Keith songs, but they started with Keith certainly. Likewise, Keith's guitar work is stamped indelibly on "Anybody Seen My Baby" which is clearly Mick's song.
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MelBelli
Flip the Switch — Keith riff/chords and most or all the lyrics, as indicated in “Life.”
ASMB - all Mick
Lowdown - Keith riff and title, Mick lyrics
Already Over Me - all Mick
Gunface - all Mick
You Don’t Have to Mean It - all Keith
Out of Control - likely all Mick (key of B, feels like “Mother of a Man” and “Peace for the Wicked” to me, obviously with Temptations thrown in)
Saint of Me - all Mick
Might as Well Get Juiced - all Mick
Always Suffering - all Mick
Too Tight - Keith riff, maybe the title, but rest of lyrics definitely Mick
Thief in the Night - all Keith
How Can I Stop - all Keith