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IanBillen
Don't pick on Hairball... he's a good kat. Anyone who has a problem with Hairball has a problem with me .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
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maumau
ok, don't think charts equals to quality so I dont know the billboard positions of those that comes to my mind.
of course it is a matter of personal taste but, trying to keep some objectivity, I do thinks these album are better than the stones'(and I still listen them a lot)
in 1994: Jeff Buckley's Grace, Pavement's Crooked Rain Crooked Rain (my fav of them, their most "stonesy" album), Portishead's Dummy, Beck's Mellow Gold, Pearl Jam's Vitalogy, Liz Phair's Whip Smart, (some say but i dont: Oasis' Definitely Maybe)
in 1997: Blur's Self titled, Chemical Bros' Dig your own jole, Bjork's Homogenic, Pavement's Brighten the corners, Elliott Smith's Either Or, Sleater Kinney's Dig me out and (some say) Radiohead's Ok Computer
in 2005: Sufjan Steven' Illinoise, Anthony & The Johnsons' I am a bird now, Sleater Kinney's The Woods, White Stripes' Get Behind me satan, maybe even Springsteen's Devil'and dust
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rev20
maumau, i think its very cool how much music you like and listen to.
i only know to some extent about a third of what you've listed and none
of it has stuck with me, mostly because the artists have not stuck with me.
i tend to be artist-oriented and attracted to those making both great
music and impacting the culture overall, setting positive trends and
having compelling personalities
except for single tracks, not albums, which can come out of anywhere for me,
from any era or genre, and be totally obscure.
i'm just guessing of course, but i'll bet if i was at your place and you
were playing your favorite cuts for me from any of those albums, that i could
appreciate them and hear what you hear and probably some of them would become
favorite cuts for me too
but i'm pretty sure you are an unusual hardcore Stones fan in having such
active and broad appetites in music, and to not need and perhaps not even enjoy
all the hype and drama that comes with big-name artists like the Stones
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retired_dogQuote
Doxa
---
They probably are rather awere that the 'magic' is no longer there, no matter what they do - or how they do it.
I don't think none of these albums are some half-assed efforts, like them intentionally releasing second-rate material.
While I largely agree with your thoughts, I'd like to add to the whole picture the fact that in the first half of the 90's, both Mick and Keith released solo albums that included song material that would have graced Voodoo Lounge and, a bit later, Bridges. Think of Hate It When You Leave, Wandering Spirit, Don't Tear Me Up, Evening Gown, Out Of Focus - stuff like this would have helped to propel either VL and/or Bridges out of the realms of mediocrity, and things like New Faces sounding like Angel In My Heart's little sister or Suck On The Jugular's backing track being almost identital to a certain remix of Sweet Thing on a Jagger solo single only added to my impression that the 90's Stones albums did not suffer from a lack of suitable material, but from keeping their best songs for their solo albums.
A couple of years later, the well obviously went a bit dry. But even ABB could have been saved to a certain extent with the inclusion of Under The Radar, Jagger's "Blue" (why this is hidden as a b-side track of a Jagger solo single is beyond me), Old Habits Die Hard instead of Streets Of Love, a better, warmer/less harsh production and the exclusion of some just forgettable material, and in case they would have wanted to keep the album's lenght as it was, filling the gap with a cover or two, I'll Go Crazy or whatever. They had great covers on their albums in the 60's and 70's, why can't they do it now if they're in need of one or two songs to round up an album? I mean, even in the 90's Jagger covering Bill Wither's Use Me did his Wandering Spirit album no harm (in fact I liked it a lot!).
To sum it up, we could have had (probably even considerably) better albums in VL, Bridges and ABB. The material was there.
What's happening now with the new album is a different thing altogether. Could be that they simply lost their focus and the album never appears. Could also very well be that behind the scenes, they're cooking something great.
Like you, I love to believe in miracles...
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maumau
ha! you pinched me with that "too white" maybe my best records of the nineties are white but the whole picture is that I live deep on black music. maybe not contemporary I admit. anyway last birthday my friends present was a copy of foxy brown ost
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maumau
yes I understand completely the emotional feeling about the stones. getting more specific Steel Wheels is really the low point to me too and, I think for a very specific reason, the ephemeral eighties sound production. the writing is discontinuous as in all the late efforts but also good and sometimes great, slipping away, almost hear you sigh, continental drift. but I really dont spin that record anymore. different story with undercover, strong album, not a classic but very good. dirty work has a bad fame but it is raw, and it is a limit but one that I deal with better than "overdone and over produced". steve lillywhite middle eighties rock sound sounds appropriate. it works for me. love many cuts from it and I can spin it as a whole ignoring its flaws.
long live the stones
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KRiffhardQuote
maumau
yes I understand completely the emotional feeling about the stones. getting more specific Steel Wheels is really the low point to me too and, I think for a very specific reason, the ephemeral eighties sound production. the writing is discontinuous as in all the late efforts but also good and sometimes great, slipping away, almost hear you sigh, continental drift. but I really dont spin that record anymore. different story with undercover, strong album, not a classic but very good. dirty work has a bad fame but it is raw, and it is a limit but one that I deal with better than "overdone and over produced". steve lillywhite middle eighties rock sound sounds appropriate. it works for me. love many cuts from it and I can spin it as a whole ignoring its flaws.
long live the stones
Imo the low point is A Bigger Bang.
Uninspired album full of fillers.
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HairballQuote
maumau
ok, don't think charts equals to quality so I dont know the billboard positions of those that comes to my mind.
of course it is a matter of personal taste but, trying to keep some objectivity, I do thinks these album are better than the stones'(and I still listen them a lot)
in 1994: Jeff Buckley's Grace, Pavement's Crooked Rain Crooked Rain (my fav of them, their most "stonesy" album), Portishead's Dummy, Beck's Mellow Gold, Pearl Jam's Vitalogy, Liz Phair's Whip Smart, (some say but i dont: Oasis' Definitely Maybe)
in 1997: Blur's Self titled, Chemical Bros' Dig your own jole, Bjork's Homogenic, Pavement's Brighten the corners, Elliott Smith's Either Or, Sleater Kinney's Dig me out and (some say) Radiohead's Ok Computer
in 2005: Sufjan Steven' Illinoise, Anthony & The Johnsons' I am a bird now, Sleater Kinney's The Woods, White Stripes' Get Behind me satan, maybe even Springsteen's Devil'and dust
Hard to try and be objective when giving an opinion on what one might prefer over the other, but IMO these are all better than what the Stones delivered in those particular years.
1994:
Blur- Parklife
Neil Young and Crazy Horse - Sleeps with Angels
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Oasis - Definitely Maybe
Johnny Cash - American Recordings
1997:
Bob Dylan - Time Out of Mind
Supergrass - In it For the Money
The Charlatans - Tellin' Stories
Spiritualized - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space
Blur - self-titled
2005:
Neil Young - Prairie Wind
I guess is was a bad year for music in general as not much else springs to mind.
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rev20
I just realized something, and I hope its okay to mention it. The music
put forward by maumau and Hairball is generally "too white" for me.
Since I first started paying attention to music, before there was a
Rolling Stones, 80% of the music I have loved has been by black people.
my only first-tier love is the stones, and my second tier is made up of
only james brown, bob marley, and rihanna. i put barry white and sade and
al green and toots hibbert and janet jackson above bob dylan, not in terms
of historical importance of course, but just in terms of listening pleasure.
in the past 30 years i've probably even listened to snoop dogg more than i
have dylan, despite how truly crappy snoop can be at times. but when he
nails it, he nails it. in the past ten years, chris brown and lil wayne...
black music, I think its safe to say, has always been more oriented
towards singles than albums. So I just think and feel that way, as if
I'm perpetually listening to an imaginary modern version of late-night
1960's WMCA 570am New York
even lately, when i've gone thru a roots country phase, its still based
on cuts, not albums. I think i would hang myself if i had to listen to an
entire Hank Snow album, but put on "I don't hurt anymore" and I'm in heaven...
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Palace Revolution 2000
Wow Hairball, you make a good point re. 2005. That really was a lousy year. And I can tell by your lists that you and I have similar taste. Maybe "Howl" by BRMC, "Cold Roses" by Ryan Adams, "Some Cities" by the Doves. "The Secret Migration" by Mercury Rev and "Broken Social Scene". I would bet that you like all those titles.
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DoxaQuote
retired_dogQuote
Doxa
---
They probably are rather awere that the 'magic' is no longer there, no matter what they do - or how they do it.
I don't think none of these albums are some half-assed efforts, like them intentionally releasing second-rate material.
While I largely agree with your thoughts, I'd like to add to the whole picture the fact that in the first half of the 90's, both Mick and Keith released solo albums that included song material that would have graced Voodoo Lounge and, a bit later, Bridges. Think of Hate It When You Leave, Wandering Spirit, Don't Tear Me Up, Evening Gown, Out Of Focus - stuff like this would have helped to propel either VL and/or Bridges out of the realms of mediocrity, and things like New Faces sounding like Angel In My Heart's little sister or Suck On The Jugular's backing track being almost identital to a certain remix of Sweet Thing on a Jagger solo single only added to my impression that the 90's Stones albums did not suffer from a lack of suitable material, but from keeping their best songs for their solo albums.
A couple of years later, the well obviously went a bit dry. But even ABB could have been saved to a certain extent with the inclusion of Under The Radar, Jagger's "Blue" (why this is hidden as a b-side track of a Jagger solo single is beyond me), Old Habits Die Hard instead of Streets Of Love, a better, warmer/less harsh production and the exclusion of some just forgettable material, and in case they would have wanted to keep the album's lenght as it was, filling the gap with a cover or two, I'll Go Crazy or whatever. They had great covers on their albums in the 60's and 70's, why can't they do it now if they're in need of one or two songs to round up an album? I mean, even in the 90's Jagger covering Bill Wither's Use Me did his Wandering Spirit album no harm (in fact I liked it a lot!).
To sum it up, we could have had (probably even considerably) better albums in VL, Bridges and ABB. The material was there.
What's happening now with the new album is a different thing altogether. Could be that they simply lost their focus and the album never appears. Could also very well be that behind the scenes, they're cooking something great.
Like you, I love to believe in miracles...
Very good points, thanks! I left the effect or significance of their solo doings out - partly just to cut at least a bit of my already way too long getting post - but my idea in talking about 'magic' was that of it happening as a result from the colloboration of Mick and Keith. They might give different signals in their interviews (at least Keith), but I am rather sure that they both are rather awere that neither of them is as any longer such an inspiring partner to write or work with as they once were. By contrast, since 'growing up apart' in musical taste and especially with their working habits and methods, The Stones stuff they do together tend to sound somehow forced and compromise-full. "Stones-by-numbers" is the common description. It sounds like that neither is willing to take too much riskies or try to follow their intuitions and ambitions 100% through in order not to offend the other too much. Then we have Mick seperating his songs for those which probably work with the Stones (to cheerleader the live audience a'la "Don't Stop") from more ambitious ones, and Keith thinking the same when picking up a thing like "One More Shot" for a Stones release - both taking consciously or non-consciously a strong 'Stones-by-numbers' route. Or then they harshly ignore the other if the other pushes something too hard. It could be the latter option happening now in regards to this new album: Mick refuses to 'waste' his time with Keith in a studio to work out his riff ideas into proper songs and Keith refuses to work on Jagger's demos. If they don't come up with any new 'compromise' or even 'synthesis' to work out their differences, it seems to look like that we are heavily moving toward BRIDGES TO BABYLON territory.
I agree with you that the Stones albums, especially VOODOO LOUNGE, suffer from some songs being 'wasted' in their solo projects. But at the same I think some of those songs - if not all - actually are better because they are not there making compromises with each other, but just wholeheartily following their own intuition and working with some people they don't need to fight all the time. I would go so far that I think all of their solo albums - even GODDESS and MAIN OFFENDER - as artistic expressions and statements are actually stronger or at least more interesting than the Stones albums they've been making during the same time frame (let's forget BLUE & LONESOME here). They probably are not so 'easy-listening' for trained Stones-fan ears, but they are not 'Stones-by-numbers' either. And probably for that reason I tend to think that BRIDGES TO BABYLON actually is their best album from the modern era (if we forget BLUE & LONESOME once again). Most of the songs were initially crafted for a solo project. So if the new album follows that route, it might not be such a bad scenario...
- Doxa
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I tend to think that BRIDGES TO BABYLON actually is their best album from the modern era
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beachbreakQuote
I tend to think that BRIDGES TO BABYLON actually is their best album from the modern era
I agree.
Anybody Seen My Baby, Lowdown, Flip the Switch, Gunface, Thief in the Night and a few others.
Very solid LP.
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Rocky DijonQuote
IanBillen
Don't pick on Hairball... he's a good kat. Anyone who has a problem with Hairball has a problem with me .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ..
I like Hairball a lot. I never even tease him. I tease you mercilessly, Ian. And you drive me mad some of the time, but the place wouldn't be the same without you and your devotion is sincere.
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Hairball
PS - You put Janet Jackson above Bob Dylan?!!
lol don't mean to laugh, but I do find that statement funny!
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Ian Billen
However I am having this bad realization .. It just maybe another friggin year (or MORE) until we get another Stones album ..
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Palace Revolution 2000Quote
HairballQuote
maumau
ok, don't think charts equals to quality so I dont know the billboard positions of those that comes to my mind.
of course it is a matter of personal taste but, trying to keep some objectivity, I do thinks these album are better than the stones'(and I still listen them a lot)
in 1994: Jeff Buckley's Grace, Pavement's Crooked Rain Crooked Rain (my fav of them, their most "stonesy" album), Portishead's Dummy, Beck's Mellow Gold, Pearl Jam's Vitalogy, Liz Phair's Whip Smart, (some say but i dont: Oasis' Definitely Maybe)
in 1997: Blur's Self titled, Chemical Bros' Dig your own jole, Bjork's Homogenic, Pavement's Brighten the corners, Elliott Smith's Either Or, Sleater Kinney's Dig me out and (some say) Radiohead's Ok Computer
in 2005: Sufjan Steven' Illinoise, Anthony & The Johnsons' I am a bird now, Sleater Kinney's The Woods, White Stripes' Get Behind me satan, maybe even Springsteen's Devil'and dust
Hard to try and be objective when giving an opinion on what one might prefer over the other, but IMO these are all better than what the Stones delivered in those particular years.
1994:
Blur- Parklife
Neil Young and Crazy Horse - Sleeps with Angels
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Oasis - Definitely Maybe
Johnny Cash - American Recordings
1997:
Bob Dylan - Time Out of Mind
Supergrass - In it For the Money
The Charlatans - Tellin' Stories
Spiritualized - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space
Blur - self-titled
2005:
Neil Young - Prairie Wind
I guess is was a bad year for music in general as not much else springs to mind.
Wow Hairball, you make a good point re. 2005. That really was a lousy year. And I can tell by your lists that you and I have similar taste. Maybe "Howl" by BRMC, "Cold Roses" by Ryan Adams, "Some Cities" by the Doves. "The Secret Migration" by Mercury Rev and "Broken Social Scene". I would bet that you like all those titles.
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doitywoik
Yeah, seems like the new album is slowly transforming into a future collector's item?
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HairballQuote
doitywoik
Yeah, seems like the new album is slowly transforming into a future collector's item?
Hi doitywoik - long time no see. Seems the new album is literally gathering moss.
All we need now is IanBillen to chime in.