Quote
Witness

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

I am almost never among the posters with adequate and exact information to judge everything that has been presented.

To some extent the quoted is a content that I can relate to, though. However, my impression is that Mick's wish to become a solo star had some important antecedents. One is that the Stones had succeded in renewing their fan base on earlier occasions, but in the early '80s there was a new challenge. Another is that especially Mick was aware of a changed scene, following the arrival of MTV and its impact on "overground" popmusic (commercial and not so commercial). At first, it seems to me that by UNDERCOVER Mick Jagger enthousiastically tried to make the Stones compete through the new channels for rock music. During the process, however, my impression is that a split was widening between the two of them as to development of Rolling Stones music. Keith wanting to be creative within the kind of Rolling Stones music that they had formerly developed a "trademark" for, Mick to expand it for the Stones to keep up their position under changed circumstances. My impression is that when Mick apparently considered UNDERCOVER's degree of success somewhat moderate, and aware of their deepening disagreement to more radical innovation of Stones music, then feared that the Rolling Stones were more or less a spent force and destined to fade away. First then a solo career emerged for him as his possibility to continue a career in rock and pop music.

In case, such an interpretation contributes to give another taste to Mick's actions and also to their personal split.

Mick wanting to different things with the Stones with UNDERCOVER was invigorating for their sound - it really was something new and different (and mostly pretty good, strictly in those guidelines). It certainly rounded out the SG-ER-U era of their success with great sounds at Pathé-Marconi Studio. Up until the behind-the-times BRIDGES TO BABYLON, it was probably their most inventive LP since "going punk" with SOME GIRLS.

What he was focused on, it seems, was going beyond that when what they should've done was stick to being The Rolling Stones, because, studio tinkering aside, nothing after UNDERCOVER really felt like they were really being The Rolling Stones, with a few exceptions like Sad Sad Sad, for example. Why couldn't they just focus on being The Rolling Stones and doing good albums instead of the deplorable embarrassing DIRTY WORK or the shiny slick 'Hey we sound like the Stones' STEEL WHEELS?

His need to be a successful modern solo star with SHE'S THE BOSS ended up being essentially lifeless and bland. He couldn't even muster up a small tour for it. He brought that mentality to DIRTY WORK and then finished it off with PRIMITIVE COOL, which, when he got around to touring for that, created the layout for the rest of the Stones' future live work. He really thought Let's Work was innovative? No one said "No, this is horrible". It sounds like something some 3rd graders would make up.

Keith's MAIN OFFENDER was the shot in the arm the Stones needed in terms of getting back to some basics, which VOODOO LOUNGE has the ring of. Less shiny, more dirty. VOODOO was a step in the right direction and the sap was less bad than any Mick solo songs. But that seemed to linger a bit (New Faces, Sweethearts Together). It reared its ugly head for BRIDGES with those awful ballads and the incredibly bad Might As Well Get Juiced.

Mick should've stuck to being, like he did with Flip The Switch, Lowdown, Out Of Control, Anybody Seen My Baby (the Miss You of the 1990s possibly) and even Too Tough, instead of chasing being modern. Again.

So what does he do? A chasing modern fourth solo album that got more press from being called DOGSHIT IN THE DOORWAY than anything else. Ah, yes. Well. Since that was ignored, time for another greatest hits album and tour with the Stones! So it was. At least they dug in a bit. It seemed to give them a slight lift for doing A BIGGER BANG.

Although A BIGGER BANG had the sense of being more like The Stones, on the tour they opted to essentially ignore it and focused on being a greatest hits band - something they did just a couple of years earlier. Since the long break after that, even with the damage from Keith's book, they've done just that.

At least that was a focus, even with one or two new songs for some tour legs. Certainly they realize that they've become a greatest hits show because that's what they've been doing for the past (almost) 5 years.

The new albums will be some hype for 5 minutes and then it's back to the regular show, however long that will go on.

That's what happened "recently" and will most likely continue to happen for just a little bit longer.

There are musical differenced in The Beatles latter work.
Somehow, it didn't seem to matter...in fact it gave the albums more depth and variety.
Of course the material was (mostly) very strong.
Which is a problem with The Stones group and solo work post Exile...with some honourable exceptions, of course.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
DonParker
What would have happened if Jagger had become as succesfull with his own band in the mid-eighties like he did with the Stones ?

The end of The Rolling Stones... until the big money offers came in to get back together again.

Mwah, Jagger and his bandmates would have declined, just like ABBA.

I think Voodoo Lounge and Steel Wheels were good, Mick's solo stuff not so good and Keith's solo stuff and tours were really good. And I am more of a Mick fan, so just being honest here.

I'm sensing you disagree with my opinion......just a guess...

betrayal

<But that seemed to linger a bit (New Faces, Sweethearts Together).>

Add Blinded By Rainbows to the sap-list. I actually like the two others, though (more than Out Of Tears, which should be included, too).

The biggest issue is Mick's jealousy of Keith's solo success.

Quote
Straycat13
betrayal

Who betrayed who?
Both of them?

Quote
Turner68
The biggest issue is Mick's jealousy of Keith's solo success.

Ha ha

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Turner68
The biggest issue is Mick's jealousy of Keith's solo success.

Ha ha

><

Quote
georgeV
I think Voodoo Lounge and Steel Wheels were good, Mick's solo stuff not so good and Keith's solo stuff and tours were really good. And I am more of a Mick fan, so just being honest here.

You didn't attend a Wino show did you?
I did in 1992 : 140 dB's for two hours (ouch!) and songs that sounded like a soundcheck ("boom tchak boom tchak" = yawn).

Quote
dcba

Quote
georgeV
I think Voodoo Lounge and Steel Wheels were good, Mick's solo stuff not so good and Keith's solo stuff and tours were really good. And I am more of a Mick fan, so just being honest here.

You didn't attend a Wino show did you?
I did in 1992 : 140 dB's for two hours (ouch!) and songs that sounded like a soundcheck ("boom tchak boom tchak" = yawn).

I saw Keith at the Tower in Philly, 1988 and it was one of the best, hard rocking shows I've ever seen!

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-20 13:52 by HonkeyTonkFlash.

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

I'm almost feel sorry for myself that I'm still a Stones fan.............

Now are you satisfied with my answer...

__________________________

Quote
lem motlow

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

I love what you said and it is so true this part "It's like watching co -workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice " Are we working for the same people ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-09-20 21:12 by TheGreek.

Quote
lem motlow

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

Not pleasant to read, but probably way closer to the truth than many of us fans would like to admit...

Lem's account makes sense, but I wouldn't say that both of them believed the band had broken up in their early '80s.
I definitely think Mick tried to get out; not so sure about Keith. I mean, he probably realized they were broken up, but I think he wanted to get back together.
I do agree that money became the big motivator, on both of their parts.
I don't think Keith was really all that motivated by making records after the big money started to come in, just looking at his solo career he wasn't all that prolific.
I would guess that Keith's boozing was a bigger problem to Mick than the heroin. Keith in the 70s was easier to deal with, if frustrating.
The saddest thing is that they had such a wonderful *writing* partnership and somewhere along the line (early 70s, probably) it fell apart.

Spot on Lem

Not pleasant reading for us stones fans, think I might put on Sticky and forget about all that

Quote
wonderboy
Lem's account makes sense, but I wouldn't say that both of them believed the band had broken up in their early '80s.
I definitely think Mick tried to get out; not so sure about Keith. I mean, he probably realized they were broken up, but I think he wanted to get back together.
I do agree that money became the big motivator, on both of their parts.
I don't think Keith was really all that motivated by making records after the big money started to come in, just looking at his solo career he wasn't all that prolific.
I would guess that Keith's boozing was a bigger problem to Mick than the heroin. Keith in the 70s was easier to deal with, if frustrating.
The saddest thing is that they had such a wonderful *writing* partnership and somewhere along the line (early 70s, probably) it fell apart.

I've heard from a few sources that the Stones did indeed break up after Dirty Work and WWIII, but agreed to not say anything official to the press so as to keep the legacy somewhat intact. For all intents and purposes they no longer existed and their reconvening in 1989 was actually even bigger news than a lot of folks realized.

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash

I saw Keith at the Tower in Philly, 1988 and it was one of the best, hard rocking shows I've ever seen!

88 was probably more concise and to the point. In 1992 it felt like Keef was trying to stretch things a bit too far (imo anyway).

Quote
dcba

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash

I saw Keith at the Tower in Philly, 1988 and it was one of the best, hard rocking shows I've ever seen!

88 was probably more concise and to the point. In 1992 it felt like Keef was trying to stretch things a bit too far (imo anyway).

I don't know as I didn't see the Winos in 1992, but judging from the albums, Talk Is Cheap was a concise and hard-rocking work. It felt like a brilliant party. Main Offender felt like the hangover after the party; lots of riffs and ideas that didn't seem like really finished songs.

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

As others have alluded to, people grow older, grow apart, for various reasons, marriage, kids, changing interests. Nothing wrong or bad about it.

I've had friends for ~30 years, went through periods where they were heavy into drinking, we drifted apart myself raising a family and all, got back to havin' fun, get in political arguments stupidly figuring we'd never talk again, agree to disagree become best friends again, annually drink like we're still in college, sh!t happens.

Don't over-analyze life.

I dont think they grew up but Mick left and Keith couldnt handle that. Just as Brian needed the band and Anita love to keep him happy.

Quote
lem motlow

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

Probably much truth in this, but it's too simplified – too black and white, I'd say.

There is love, too, not just hate...

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
lem motlow

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

Probably much truth in this, but it's too simplified – too black and white, I'd say.

There is love, too, not just hate...

I don't think they "pretend" to be the Stones at all. They're musicians, not actors. If the moments of grinning at each other and showing affection towards each other are staged then they should win some academy awards. Of course, their relationship has changed. They work together, but don't hang out socially any more...but I think they still have some sort of deep bond...But what do any of us know? The Stones live in a very private, protected world. We're all just making wild guesses here!

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
lem motlow

Quote
swimtothemoon

Quote
lem motlow
they had a falling out because Mick wanted to be a solo star like Michael Jackson and Keith being the real "rolling stone" of the group wanted to keep the band together and was offended that Mick would play with other musicians in place of the Stones.
Because Keith is so amazingly awesome and such a cool dude he allowed Mick to crawl back to the Stones after his solo career failed so miserably.

Jagger was humbled because his records didn't sell,a couple of them only reaching 2 or 3000 copies and people didn't go to his shows,sometimes only a couple of hundred people showed up.

He redeemed himself by writing the band a letter apoligizing for ever leaving and agreed to never do a solo project again.they've been great friends ever since.

Where did you get this info?

The post was a joke,the sad thing is there are retards who actually believe that nonsense.the real answer? well-

What happened to Mick and Keith was they turned 40.they grew up,they grew apart and somewhere in the early 80's they broke up the Rolling Stones,then they spent the rest of the decade getting on with their lives.
Any success Mick AND Keith did or didn't have on their own had nothing to do with what ended up being the Rolling Stones Revue.
Michael Cohl had made huge dollars putting a version of Pink Floyd[ or as their fans called it-Pink Fraud]on the road and then His goal was to get the Stones back together-this has been the norm for classic rock bands ever since,put up with your old bandmates for a few months and make millions or for lesser bands touring the showrooms of Indian casinos to make a living.

I can't really tell if Keith really believes all that nonsense about it being a "marriage" or Jagger having "rhino skin" about all the insults-Jagger can't stand him and puts up with it because he can get dressed up and pretend to be MICK JAGGER for a few hours and make millions,then he can go back and do what he really wants,make movies and tv shows,travel and watch football and occasionally make records with people he actually likes.

It's so phony watching them joke around,smile and pose i can't believe anyone falls for it,it's like watching co-workers who you know hate each other and end up making the best of it and getting along because they have no choice.
-so what happend with Mick and Keith? they grew up,they grew old and they grew apart.luckily for a few million we can still see them pretend to be the Stones again a few times a year.

now aren't you sorry you asked...

Probably much truth in this, but it's too simplified – too black and white, I'd say.

There is love, too, not just hate...

I don't think they "pretend" to be the Stones at all. They're musicians, not actors. If the moments of grinning at each other and showing affection towards each other are staged then they should win some academy awards. Of course, their relationship has changed. They work together, but don't hang out socially any more...but I think they still have some sort of deep bond...But what do any of us know? The Stones live in a very private, protected world. We're all just making wild guesses here!

Mick described himself as a method actor. I view them partly as carriers of a legacy, image and lifestyle. Masters at keeping a hype alive

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash


I don't think they "pretend" to be the Stones at all. They're musicians, not actors.

I'd say you sadly and accidentally hit the nail on the head right there...

They are actors. People pay big money to see them in concert and the expectation is for them to act out their roles on stage.
All FOUR of them.

It's become a gigantic and massive Broadway-type production complete with costumes, cues and a program.

Shit. The thought of these upcoming four over-priced shows, and this thread, are utterly depressing to me.

Quote
Kurt

Quote
HonkeyTonkFlash


I don't think they "pretend" to be the Stones at all. They're musicians, not actors.

I'd say you sadly and accidentally hit the nail on the head right there...

They are actors. People pay big money to see them in concert and the expectation is for them to act out their roles on stage.
All FOUR of them.

It's become a gigantic and massive Broadway-type production complete with costumes, cues and a program.

Shit. The thought of these upcoming four over-priced shows, and this thread, are utterly depressing to me.

I know you could be right but I haven't become quite that jaded yet. As I've said before, they live in such a private and insulated world that we may not know the realities of the situation for a very long time, if ever.

"Gonna find my way to heaven ..."