Tell Me :
Talk
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
No, thanks. I allready think it IS, the way it is.
And I would NEVER change a friggin' thing about their 'big 9' imo (debut album - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - B&B - SG - TY)
Of course. Melody isnt bad (Mick could have done a better vocal) but Cherry is horrible. Slave and WAY would have made this to an instant classic, the "hidden Gem" of the Stones 70s, an album worthy of dedications and re-releases and a Q in every interview. Their great golden black dark heavy vobble album before the "punk" album.
Some Girls would have another place in rock history too.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 13:22 by Redhotcarpet.
Yeah, Keith probably liked what COODER played on that one? Keith himself was only strumming an acoustic...
No, Keith found his own way around the use of open tuning before AND after HTW and LIB, which was a more slide-oriented (Cooder-inspired) album than that of SF. And there isn't a lot of open G/open tuning-playing on LIB anyway
The way Keith eventually used open tuning (Remember, he wrote songs like JJF and SFM even before he met Cooder) on songs like BS, WH, CYHMK and ADTL was a completely different approach than Cooder's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:20 by DandelionPowderman.
No open tuned guitars on TSMR.
Jumpin' Jack Flash/Child Of The Moon is the first stones release to feature Keith using open tunings.
Big 10... TRS - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - GHS - B&B - SG - TY
The powerful sound on Citadel sounds like open tuning. It isn't, though.
One of my all time faves, btw.
... and some people mistakenly think the acoustic on The Lantern was tuned to open E.
Standard tuning all the way.
He was very inspired by Cooder and Keith acknowledges this. Cooder is very important in the transition 1968/1969, an important era.
...I don't share the sentiment for thát album, but hey:
That's why I put it there. I accept your Big 9 but if there is a Big 10 it should be in.
Scratch the surface of that view and what is revealed is quite a bit less sensational.
He borrowed some Ry-isms for a few recordings, some of which were already similar to the way he played anyway.
If he took Ry for all he could get, what he managed to get wasn't that much.
Of course, you have a thing about it, so hey ho.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-29 13:45 by His Majesty.
Naming Cooder as a source of inspiration, in the same sentence as Chuck Berry, doesn't hold up at all, musically.
Hmm, I kinda like Hot Stuff and Melody. Sort of a fusionesque jazz jammmmmm stick it up and stuff. Or something. And what's wrong with a 5 minute off the top of their heads: that's brilliant so they can play it on stage easily too.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
FortuneTeller800
()
Date: December 15, 2013 00:45
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
stoneheartedQuote
MaindefenderQuote
EddieBywordQuote
Maindefender
Save Me or Plundered my Soul may have made their way to TY, never know. I think Hey Negrita bumped Slave and Worried Bout You got bumped by the two existing ballads. Black & Blue might make for an interesting deluxe package?
Oh yes, especially if it had high quality sound versions of the 11 minute Hey Negrita and the long Slave.....
Is the Jeff Beck material from these sessions deluxe worthy?
Love Charlie there during the first few minutes. bash bash
Love this...lots of good stuff still in the can...does need a heckuva lot of polish though.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
FortuneTeller800
()
Date: December 15, 2013 17:51
In the big picture of their overall output, I see that this is a very good album. And I think that to open the album with "Hot Stuff" was brilliant. The very sound of Keith in the first grooves; that tiny Sears guitar. Then coupled with Mandel's nasty sound. The key change for the solo. And Jagger's rap at the end.
Nowadays we know all the lyrics. But I remember, back in the day, hearing that song w/o a lyric sheet, and trying to figure out wtf he was going on about.( Worse than the tumbly dice.)
Hand Of Fate is that rare song, that the Stones are masters at: where you join a beautiful melody with a driving beat. ("Rocks Off" is another one like that). HOF also features a great set of lyrics; a story. One of the best solos on Stones records.
While "Crazy Mama" makes a good album closer it always struck me as a bit lead-footed. It reminds me of "It Must Be Hell", where the Stones come off as trying just a tad too hard to come up with a rousing finale.
Nowadays we know all the lyrics. But I remember, back in the day, hearing that song w/o a lyric sheet, and trying to figure out wtf he was going on about.( Worse than the tumbly dice.)
Hand Of Fate is that rare song, that the Stones are masters at: where you join a beautiful melody with a driving beat. ("Rocks Off" is another one like that). HOF also features a great set of lyrics; a story. One of the best solos on Stones records.
While "Crazy Mama" makes a good album closer it always struck me as a bit lead-footed. It reminds me of "It Must Be Hell", where the Stones come off as trying just a tad too hard to come up with a rousing finale.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
kowalski
()
Date: January 28, 2014 04:13
Quote
GasLightStreet
Still astounds me to this day that they left Slave and Worried About You unfinished. Just imagine the album with those tracks on it as well.
Had they finished them, of course.
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
RoughJusticeOnYa
()
Date: January 28, 2014 12:55
Quote
kowalski
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
No, thanks. I allready think it IS, the way it is.
And I would NEVER change a friggin' thing about their 'big 9' imo (debut album - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - B&B - SG - TY)
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: January 28, 2014 13:21
Quote
kowalskiQuote
GasLightStreet
Still astounds me to this day that they left Slave and Worried About You unfinished. Just imagine the album with those tracks on it as well.
Had they finished them, of course.
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
Of course. Melody isnt bad (Mick could have done a better vocal) but Cherry is horrible. Slave and WAY would have made this to an instant classic, the "hidden Gem" of the Stones 70s, an album worthy of dedications and re-releases and a Q in every interview. Their great golden black dark heavy vobble album before the "punk" album.
Some Girls would have another place in rock history too.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 13:22 by Redhotcarpet.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: January 28, 2014 13:26
One of Keiths most underrated riffs ever. And this is pure Keith, forget inpirations, Cooderisms or Berry. This is genious and very hard to come up with becuase rhythm and feel is so important. So simple, almost stupid and yet genious. Razerblade sharp, monotonic but swinging. Cold but driving. I love it.
Quote
Rockman
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: January 28, 2014 13:40
Yes to that.
AND what is special about Black and Blue - and those sessions - isthat you've got the 4 basic Stones working together as unit again for first time since Sticky Fingers really.
Mick Keith Charlie and BILL. the CORE band, (once brian had first got marginalised, then 'quit' and then died). But forget Brian, Taylor or Wood.
here we had a good solid band album reliant again on Keith, (in a way that neither GHS or IORR really were).
Bill on just about every track. A core band unity and sound.
Added to that is that the sound was new and distinct but still grungey Stones AND that they exercised their powers over a wide variety of styles while 'auditioning' various extras - and you have a very special and central 70s Stones album.
It's strong and didn't need Taylor to be so, (I love him by the way) - but they could more than hold their own without him, on whom they'd become so reliant and ever so slightly lazy - his brilliance made it easier for Mick not to need Keith or for Keith to need to make such an effort. Well here Keith has to deliver - and he does.
Pity they couldn't keep Mandel and Perkins as well as Ronnie though!
I also think that Cherry Oh is an essential element - something lighter and fun - to balance the 'heavier' and more epic tracks. Similarly Melody.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 15:33 by Deluxtone.
AND what is special about Black and Blue - and those sessions - isthat you've got the 4 basic Stones working together as unit again for first time since Sticky Fingers really.
Mick Keith Charlie and BILL. the CORE band, (once brian had first got marginalised, then 'quit' and then died). But forget Brian, Taylor or Wood.
here we had a good solid band album reliant again on Keith, (in a way that neither GHS or IORR really were).
Bill on just about every track. A core band unity and sound.
Added to that is that the sound was new and distinct but still grungey Stones AND that they exercised their powers over a wide variety of styles while 'auditioning' various extras - and you have a very special and central 70s Stones album.
It's strong and didn't need Taylor to be so, (I love him by the way) - but they could more than hold their own without him, on whom they'd become so reliant and ever so slightly lazy - his brilliance made it easier for Mick not to need Keith or for Keith to need to make such an effort. Well here Keith has to deliver - and he does.
Pity they couldn't keep Mandel and Perkins as well as Ronnie though!
I also think that Cherry Oh is an essential element - something lighter and fun - to balance the 'heavier' and more epic tracks. Similarly Melody.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 15:33 by Deluxtone.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 28, 2014 15:24
Keith never was as inspired by Cooder as he was by Berry.
There are a couple of licks on HTW and LIB, the album. That's all.
There are a couple of licks on HTW and LIB, the album. That's all.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: January 28, 2014 15:40
Don't forget some of sticky Fingers DP, (sister morphine).
I thought that Keith was very influenced by Cooder - re different tunings - including OpenG.
Such open tunings became Keith's trademark - and combining this with his Berry style.
I thought that Keith was very influenced by Cooder - re different tunings - including OpenG.
Such open tunings became Keith's trademark - and combining this with his Berry style.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 28, 2014 15:54
Keith was already aware of open tunings before he used them himself and before he met Cooder.
Keith used open tunings before he met Cooder. Much of Keith's signature open tuning sounds were already well in place before he met Cooder. Keith's playing on 19th Nervous Breakdown for example has various licks that became forever linked to his use of open G.
The Cooder thing is seriously over stated. I think even by Keith himself.
At best Cooder gave Keith a nudge and insight in to open G and how it, generally, makes for a tighter sound compared to open E and D and suits rock bands better. Put it this way, other musicians met and played and were influenced by Cooder, but none of them came out with the sound Keith had when he used open G.
Listening to Pay Your Dues, there's a third guitar that isn't on Street Fighting Man that I think might be open G and thus confirms his memories of recording the track using both open D and open G, but if it is open G it also means Keith's use of it pre dates meeting Cooder.
What's that leave? Some licks that aren't that far away from stuff Keith had already been playing for years. Ie the intro to 19th Nervous Breakdown etc.
The fills and licks of Honky Tonk Women is within reach here already.
After the initial "oh shit, he's great!" reaction to Cooder, I think the Cooder influence was most likely more of a subtle influence than some think.
Imo of cosurse.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:22 by His Majesty.
Keith used open tunings before he met Cooder. Much of Keith's signature open tuning sounds were already well in place before he met Cooder. Keith's playing on 19th Nervous Breakdown for example has various licks that became forever linked to his use of open G.
The Cooder thing is seriously over stated. I think even by Keith himself.
At best Cooder gave Keith a nudge and insight in to open G and how it, generally, makes for a tighter sound compared to open E and D and suits rock bands better. Put it this way, other musicians met and played and were influenced by Cooder, but none of them came out with the sound Keith had when he used open G.
Listening to Pay Your Dues, there's a third guitar that isn't on Street Fighting Man that I think might be open G and thus confirms his memories of recording the track using both open D and open G, but if it is open G it also means Keith's use of it pre dates meeting Cooder.
What's that leave? Some licks that aren't that far away from stuff Keith had already been playing for years. Ie the intro to 19th Nervous Breakdown etc.
The fills and licks of Honky Tonk Women is within reach here already.
After the initial "oh shit, he's great!" reaction to Cooder, I think the Cooder influence was most likely more of a subtle influence than some think.
Imo of cosurse.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:22 by His Majesty.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 28, 2014 16:14
.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:15 by His Majesty.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:15 by His Majesty.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 28, 2014 16:17
Quote
Deluxtone
Don't forget some of sticky Fingers DP, (sister morphine).
I thought that Keith was very influenced by Cooder - re different tunings - including OpenG.
Such open tunings became Keith's trademark - and combining this with his Berry style.
Yeah, Keith probably liked what COODER played on that one? Keith himself was only strumming an acoustic...
No, Keith found his own way around the use of open tuning before AND after HTW and LIB, which was a more slide-oriented (Cooder-inspired) album than that of SF. And there isn't a lot of open G/open tuning-playing on LIB anyway
The way Keith eventually used open tuning (Remember, he wrote songs like JJF and SFM even before he met Cooder) on songs like BS, WH, CYHMK and ADTL was a completely different approach than Cooder's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-28 16:20 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Deluxtone
()
Date: January 28, 2014 18:27
Ok, that's pretty clear reagrding dates and
yes, a completely different approach!
And now I come to think of it isn't much of the Satanics sessions 'tapes' open tuned?
yes, a completely different approach!
And now I come to think of it isn't much of the Satanics sessions 'tapes' open tuned?
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 28, 2014 21:33
Quote
Deluxtone
Ok, that's pretty clear reagrding dates and
yes, a completely different approach!
And now I come to think of it isn't much of the Satanics sessions 'tapes' open tuned?
No open tuned guitars on TSMR.
Jumpin' Jack Flash/Child Of The Moon is the first stones release to feature Keith using open tunings.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Dreamer
()
Date: January 28, 2014 22:41
Quote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
kowalski
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
No, thanks. I allready think it IS, the way it is.
And I would NEVER change a friggin' thing about their 'big 9' imo (debut album - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - B&B - SG - TY)
Big 10... TRS - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - GHS - B&B - SG - TY
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 28, 2014 23:32
Quote
Deluxtone
Ok, that's pretty clear reagrding dates and
yes, a completely different approach!
And now I come to think of it isn't much of the Satanics sessions 'tapes' open tuned?
The powerful sound on Citadel sounds like open tuning. It isn't, though.
One of my all time faves, btw.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 29, 2014 00:32
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The powerful sound on Citadel sounds like open tuning. It isn't, though.
One of my all time faves, btw.
... and some people mistakenly think the acoustic on The Lantern was tuned to open E.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 29, 2014 01:28
What about 2000 Man? Probably not, but that riff sure can be played in open tuning, sounding like that.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 29, 2014 01:45
Quote
DandelionPowderman
What about 2000 Man? Probably not, but that riff sure can be played in open tuning, sounding like that.
Standard tuning all the way.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: January 29, 2014 12:40
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keith never was as inspired by Cooder as he was by Berry.
There are a couple of licks on HTW and LIB, the album. That's all.
He was very inspired by Cooder and Keith acknowledges this. Cooder is very important in the transition 1968/1969, an important era.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: January 29, 2014 12:42
Forget tunings, Cooders style was copied more or less.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 29, 2014 12:52
If you believe so...
Personally, I think you're reading too much into this.
Keith loved Cooder back in 1965 already, btw, while he was in the Rising Sons. Keith and David Crosby attended one of their shows in California that year.
Personally, I think you're reading too much into this.
Keith loved Cooder back in 1965 already, btw, while he was in the Rising Sons. Keith and David Crosby attended one of their shows in California that year.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
RoughJusticeOnYa
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:00
Quote
DreamerQuote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
kowalski
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
No, thanks. I allready think it IS, the way it is.
And I would NEVER change a friggin' thing about their 'big 9' imo (debut album - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - B&B - SG - TY)
Big 10... TRS - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - GHS - B&B - SG - TY
...I don't share the sentiment for thát album, but hey:
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Dreamer
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:22
Quote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
DreamerQuote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
kowalski
Replace Cherry Oh Baby with Slave (short version) and Melody with Worried About You (both from versions on TY), and you get possibly their most solid/substantial album after Exile...
No, thanks. I allready think it IS, the way it is.
And I would NEVER change a friggin' thing about their 'big 9' imo (debut album - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - B&B - SG - TY)
Big 10... TRS - Aftermath - BB - LIB - SF - EOMS - GHS - B&B - SG - TY
...I don't share the sentiment for thát album, but hey:
That's why I put it there. I accept your Big 9 but if there is a Big 10 it should be in.Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:37
Quote
RedhotcarpetQuote
DandelionPowderman
Keith never was as inspired by Cooder as he was by Berry.
There are a couple of licks on HTW and LIB, the album. That's all.
He was very inspired by Cooder and Keith acknowledges this. Cooder is very important in the transition 1968/1969, an important era.
Scratch the surface of that view and what is revealed is quite a bit less sensational.
He borrowed some Ry-isms for a few recordings, some of which were already similar to the way he played anyway.
If he took Ry for all he could get, what he managed to get wasn't that much.
Of course, you have a thing about it, so hey ho.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-01-29 13:45 by His Majesty.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
RollingFreak
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:44
I love half of it, and I hate half of it.
Hand Of Fate
Memory Motel
Fool To Cry
Crazy Mama
are excellent songs. Thats one hell of an LP side. However, literally before and after each good song is a terrible song to go with it:
Hot Stuff - just awful
Hey Negrita
Melody
Cherry Oh Baby
are just terrible songs. Boring, repetitive, and not a style the Stones can successfully tackle. I give them credit for branching out into different style, but all 4 of those songs, to me, literally sound like they went into the studio, recorded for 5 minutes off the top of their heads, and then left. The 4 I enjoy sound like classic Stones and sound like actual time was taken to write them.
Hand Of Fate
Memory Motel
Fool To Cry
Crazy Mama
are excellent songs. Thats one hell of an LP side. However, literally before and after each good song is a terrible song to go with it:
Hot Stuff - just awful
Hey Negrita
Melody
Cherry Oh Baby
are just terrible songs. Boring, repetitive, and not a style the Stones can successfully tackle. I give them credit for branching out into different style, but all 4 of those songs, to me, literally sound like they went into the studio, recorded for 5 minutes off the top of their heads, and then left. The 4 I enjoy sound like classic Stones and sound like actual time was taken to write them.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:48
Quote
His MajestyQuote
RedhotcarpetQuote
DandelionPowderman
Keith never was as inspired by Cooder as he was by Berry.
There are a couple of licks on HTW and LIB, the album. That's all.
He was very inspired by Cooder and Keith acknowledges this. Cooder is very important in the transition 1968/1969, an important era.
Scratch the surface of that view and what is revealed is quite a bit less sensational.
He borrowed some Ry-isms for a few recordings, some of which were already similar to the way he played anyway.
If he took Ry for all he could get, what he managed to get wasn't that much.
Of course, you have a thing about it, so hey ho.
Naming Cooder as a source of inspiration, in the same sentence as Chuck Berry, doesn't hold up at all, musically.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
Dreamer
()
Date: January 29, 2014 13:53
Quote
RollingFreak
I love half of it, and I hate half of it.
Hand Of Fate
Memory Motel
Fool To Cry
Crazy Mama
are excellent songs. Thats one hell of an LP side. However, literally before and after each good song is a terrible song to go with it:
Hot Stuff - just awful
Hey Negrita
Melody
Cherry Oh Baby
are just terrible songs. Boring, repetitive, and not a style the Stones can successfully tackle. I give them credit for branching out into different style, but all 4 of those songs, to me, literally sound like they went into the studio, recorded for 5 minutes off the top of their heads, and then left. The 4 I enjoy sound like classic Stones and sound like actual time was taken to write them.
Hmm, I kinda like Hot Stuff and Melody. Sort of a fusionesque jazz jammmmmm stick it up and stuff. Or something. And what's wrong with a 5 minute off the top of their heads: that's brilliant so they can play it on stage easily too.
Re: Black and Blue, great LP
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 29, 2014 14:08
<I kinda like Hot Stuff and Melody>
+1
+1
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