Quote
Eleanor Rigby

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<I am guessing that fans would have initially thought this album was average...with one or 2 decent songs.>

Not for me, I liked the whole album at the time. And I thought Undercover Of The Night, She Was Hot and Pretty Beat Up were fantastic. I still do.

sorry..I should have expected a reply like this.
i should i have some fans...

I missed the "some" in some fans

I realized that I haven't listened the whole album - only some random songs - for ages now, and just talked about it from memory (like I have done for ages)... So inspired by this thread I actually listened UNDERCOVER last night with as open-mindly and fresh ears as possible. Which was interesting, since there is so much personal nostalgia involved in that...

Just a few remarks that occurred to me, and that were novel to me, or I haven't thought about for ages (but, to be frank, it didn't much change my mind of the album)

Firstly, I really can't see the album so 'different' or even 'adventurous' that it seems to be claimed sometimes. The production is what it is, but the substance of it is very familiar to any post-SOME GIRLS album. There are three songs that actually are experimental - "Undercover of The Night", "Feel On Baby", "Too Much Blood" - of which only "Too Much Blood" is actually a serious try to enrich their musical vocabulary and to step out of their familiar idiom. In some other other songs there are some little production ideas that try to give a new taste to old receipt, but it sounds what it is: a make up thing. I don't hear there any serious artistic re-invention taking place. The band is truely not inspired in that sense.

Secondly, it substantially belongs even stronger to the Some Girls- or Pathe Marconi Era than I thought. Jagger's (sometimes tongue-in-a-cheek) screaming, the messy background vocals and choruses, the loose, even jamming-like feel, and the sloppy structure in most of the songs is so typical Pathe Marconi. Those three albums - SOME GIRLS, EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER - tell a little story of their own that is an unique chapter in their musical adventure. But what was inspirational in SOME GIRLS, a bit degenerated in EMOTIONAL RESCUE, is rather generic here. The band is hot as hell as players, but the song-writing in damn lazy. Many songs - "Tie You Up", "All The Way Down", "Too Tough", "Pretty Beat Up", "Must Be Hell" - do sound like some random, sometimes recicled riff is thrown in, and a song is constructed out of it with as little creative effort as possible. The band just relies on their ability to make a diamond out of any idea, but the result is a rather endless run of of mediocre, non-memorable fillers. The best there is is a certain "groove" in pieces, but that's not thanks to inspired song-writing but that of hot band. And yes, "Too Tough" has a distinguished chorus in it, in the middle of rather generic Stones rocker (and extra mention to Ronnie's "heavy metal" guitar solo).

Thirdly, and what really stroke me, was how much the band in certain songs have still so much that 1981/82 tour feel in them. Especially in "Too Tough" and "Tie You Up" Jagger sounds like the horse-mouthed, coked up vocalist he was during the tour. Much of EMOTIONAL RESCUE feel as well.

What else? "Undercover of The Night" and "She Was Hot" truely are very good songs, shining diamonds in that context. I admire what they try to do in "Too Much Blood", but unfortunately the result does not work for me. A bit same like with "Feel On Baby", and I can't help how boring it gets, and its sounds have aged very poorly. The rest is basically just funny party music, and surely has its function here and then. And still a reminder what a hot, even dangerous band they used to be. As a whole the album is constructed a bit oddly, which makes one think of its intentions. It starts by throwing two best numbers in - which make one wait a bit too much of what will follow. The b-side - yes, I do listen the vinyl version! - starts with another hard-worked Jagger number, but is followed by nothing but groovie but generic 'fillers'. Once "Must Be Hell" ends, it leaves one wonder what the hell happened, where did all the memorable songs go?

Someone mentioned above that there is something EXILE on it. Yes, I think there is; the basic idea of making from not very distinguished numbers a great album by a hot band. But the problem is that in EXILE the songs simply are much better and also the band is more spot on and focused. EXILE was a once in a life time experiment, or at least an experiment that succeeds only once in a life time when all the stars are in right places (the creators in the right hectic momentum in their career).

But I did enjoy enermously listening to UNDERCOVER first time for years! Oh hell I did!

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-30 11:43 by Doxa.

Only a subjective remark, probably without consequence if one does not love UNDERCOVER: In some way "Undercover" (despite the title of the album) and "She Was Hot" mainly involve their own songs separately, whereas it is "Tie You Up (The Pain of Love" ) that defines the album (dare I say its theme and feeling) and unites and integrates those two first grand songs to this album, making them assets for it. So important and vital is that third song of the album. More or less, a key track to this album.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-30 14:29 by Witness.

Quote
Witness
Only a subjective remark, probably without consequence if one does not love UNDERCOVER: In some way "Undercover" (despite the title of the album) and "She Was Hot" mainly involve their own songs separately, whereas it is "Tie You Up (The Pain of Love" ) that defines the album (dare I say its theme and feeling) and unites and integrates those two first grand songs to this album, making them assets for it. So important and vital is that third song of the album. More or less, a key track to this album.

That is a good observation, Witness. I agree, totally!

Some of Keith's finest playing ever in there as well

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
Witness
Only a subjective remark, probably without consequence if one does not love UNDERCOVER: In some way "Undercover" (despite the title of the album) and "She Was Hot" mainly involve their own songs separately, whereas it is "Tie You Up (The Pain of Love" ) that defines the album (dare I say its theme and feeling) and unites and integrates those two first grand songs to this album, making them assets for it. So important and vital is that third song of the album. More or less, a key track to this album.

That is a good observation, Witness. I agree, totally!

Some of Keith's finest playing ever in there as well

Agree with both of you and also with your comment on Mick's vocal on Undercover of the Night Dandelion.

It's not my favorite album.

That said I wonder if any of you have the same challenge as I when trying to rate an album. The issue I have is this one. With many of the songs on any Stones album I do remember where I was when I first heard it. I even remember the people I was with and how I felt.

When listening to a song, especially songs I don't hear to often, it takes me back to that moment when I first heard it. As a result mu judgement gets cluttered by the feelings relived.

In 1983 I was working on a derrick barge in the Gulf of Mexico .At the time I was in love with what is now my ex wife. I missed her dearly. It was my first trip to the US. Hurricane Alicia hit us hard when we landed in Houston. It delayed my first helicopter ride with a few days. We stayed in a demolished Pasadena Texas for a few days before getting on board. It was adventurous times for me. A number of weeks later I received a cassette tape of this new Stones album that was just released. My younger brother taped Undercover for me.

Listening to Undercover still takes me back. I can relive those times in detail. That very much influences my ability to compare it to let's say Some Girls which was a totally different period in my life with it's own charms.

Quote
Witness
Only a subjective remark, probably without consequence if one does not love UNDERCOVER: In some way "Undercover" (despite the title of the album) and "She Was Hot" mainly involve their own songs separately, whereas it is "Tie You Up (The Pain of Love" ) that defines the album (dare I say its theme and feeling) and unites and integrates those two first grand songs to this album, making them assets for it. So important and vital is that third song of the album. More or less, a key track to this album.

I agree with you there. Both "Undercover of the Night" and "She Was Hot" gives a wrong signal of the nature of the album (as "Too Much Blood" later as well). UNDERCOVER, if anything, is defined of those what I call typical Pathe Marconi numbers. Not too much idea in song writing or focus but the band having a nice groove going on, when some sort of idea or sketch is given. I think "Tie You Up" sets the mood for the rest come. Great band and great musicianship, but damn lazy song-writing.

- Doxa

It's not unusual that the singles are very different than the rest of the songs on Stones albums. ASMB, Hot Stuff, MY and BOB to name a few.

It often even make the albums more interesting, imo.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Quote
elunsi

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Look, there's these antennae that Keith has...the songs are just floating around there out in the ether, Keith just happens to nab them from space, to which they channel through to his gnarled hands to his guitar.

At that point he just hands it over to Mick to finish up, like a chef to his protégé in the kitchen might do.

What's so difficult to understand about that? All Mick has to do is finish the damn things. It's a valuable role Mick plays in scraping the dough bowl clean but Keith's already done the hard part!

I don't know anything about the mixing of this album. EXILE was basically set aside, allowed to cool on the sill, and then was mixed some time later in Los Angeles. Who knows how good or bad some of those songs sounded before bits and pieces were added here and there. I certainly don't get that feeling with the Undercover album. I never thought of as the third leg in the Pathe Marconi stool, but I can see Some Girls being tops, Emotional Rescue a lesser, summer album, and then they ran out of gas for Undercover.

I was really hoping for a lot after the lackluster Emotional Rescue album. (Lackluster in comparison to Some Girls). I was knocked out by the UCOTN single and of course I bought the album immediately, as I bought all Stones albums back then. Well, this was the one that cure me of that habit. I took my time buying Dirty Work(on cassette), another dud, and I did take my time before snatching up Steel Wheels. (Although I was greatly satisfied by that album).

I think those who think Undercover is a great album, among the very Stones' best, are in the distinct minority. It seems there are more who sing the praises of Undercover than those who think the same of Dirty Work. Undercover is a more coherent work than Dirty Work, but there's only about 5 songs between the 2 of them that I would ever listen to again.

Quote
24FPS
I don't know anything about the mixing of this album. EXILE was basically set aside, allowed to cool on the sill, and then was mixed some time later in Los Angeles. Who knows how good or bad some of those songs sounded before bits and pieces were added here and there. I certainly don't get that feeling with the Undercover album. I never thought of as the third leg in the Pathe Marconi stool, but I can see Some Girls being tops, Emotional Rescue a lesser, summer album, and then they ran out of gas for Undercover.

I was really hoping for a lot after the lackluster Emotional Rescue album. (Lackluster in comparison to Some Girls). I was knocked out by the UCOTN single and of course I bought the album immediately, as I bought all Stones albums back then. Well, this was the one that cure me of that habit. I took my time buying Dirty Work(on cassette), another dud, and I did take my time before snatching up Steel Wheels. (Although I was greatly satisfied by that album).

I think those who think Undercover is a great album, among the very Stones' best, are in the distinct minority. It seems there are more who sing the praises of Undercover than those who think the same of Dirty Work. Undercover is a more coherent work than Dirty Work, but there's only about 5 songs between the 2 of them that I would ever listen to again.

There are probably only 12 of them I'd ever listen to again, 10 of them are on Undercover.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
elunsi

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Look, there's these antennae that Keith has...the songs are just floating around there out in the ether, Keith just happens to nab them from space, to which they channel through to his gnarled hands to his guitar.

At that point he just hands it over to Mick to finish up, like a chef to his protégé in the kitchen might do.

What's so difficult to understand about that? All Mick has to do is finish the damn things. It's a valuable role Mick plays in scraping the dough bowl clean but Keith's already done the hard part!

Both, M.Taylor and R.Wood said, that most songs were written by M.Jagger. most of the times Jagger brought a song to the studio and the band helped to finish it. In the 70ies, the 80ies, the 90ies and the 2000s it was Mick who had done the hard part. Mick is not like a protege in the kitchen, he is an underrated songwriter.

Quote
elunsi

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
elunsi

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Look, there's these antennae that Keith has...the songs are just floating around there out in the ether, Keith just happens to nab them from space, to which they channel through to his gnarled hands to his guitar.

At that point he just hands it over to Mick to finish up, like a chef to his protégé in the kitchen might do.

What's so difficult to understand about that? All Mick has to do is finish the damn things. It's a valuable role Mick plays in scraping the dough bowl clean but Keith's already done the hard part!

Both, M.Taylor and R.Wood said, that most songs were written by M.Jagger. most of the times Jagger brought a song to the studio and the band helped to finish it. In the 70ies, the 80ies, the 90ies and the 2000s it was Mick who had done the hard part. Mick is not like a protege in the kitchen, he is an underrated songwriter.

you may not have noticed the extreme sarcasm

Quote
24FPS
I don't know anything about the mixing of this album. EXILE was basically set aside, allowed to cool on the sill, and then was mixed some time later in Los Angeles. Who knows how good or bad some of those songs sounded before bits and pieces were added here and there. I certainly don't get that feeling with the Undercover album. I never thought of as the third leg in the Pathe Marconi stool, but I can see Some Girls being tops, Emotional Rescue a lesser, summer album, and then they ran out of gas for Undercover.

I was really hoping for a lot after the lackluster Emotional Rescue album. (Lackluster in comparison to Some Girls). I was knocked out by the UCOTN single and of course I bought the album immediately, as I bought all Stones albums back then. Well, this was the one that cure me of that habit. I took my time buying Dirty Work(on cassette), another dud, and I did take my time before snatching up Steel Wheels. (Although I was greatly satisfied by that album).

I think those who think Undercover is a great album, among the very Stones' best, are in the distinct minority. It seems there are more who sing the praises of Undercover than those who think the same of Dirty Work. Undercover is a more coherent work than Dirty Work, but there's only about 5 songs between the 2 of them that I would ever listen to again.

finally some reason....

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
elunsi

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
elunsi

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Look, there's these antennae that Keith has...the songs are just floating around there out in the ether, Keith just happens to nab them from space, to which they channel through to his gnarled hands to his guitar.

At that point he just hands it over to Mick to finish up, like a chef to his protégé in the kitchen might do.

What's so difficult to understand about that? All Mick has to do is finish the damn things. It's a valuable role Mick plays in scraping the dough bowl clean but Keith's already done the hard part!

Both, M.Taylor and R.Wood said, that most songs were written by M.Jagger. most of the times Jagger brought a song to the studio and the band helped to finish it. In the 70ies, the 80ies, the 90ies and the 2000s it was Mick who had done the hard part. Mick is not like a protege in the kitchen, he is an underrated songwriter.

you may not have noticed the extreme sarcasm

I was indeed very surprised, but I am glad now to know that you are not one of those who believe this. But there are Keith-fans who believe exactly what you wrote. The majority of fans simply ignore these statements by Taylor and Wood.

Quote
elunsi

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<But the majority of fans believe, that Mick started to write more songs only in the nineties and that Keith always was the main songwriter.>

Who believe this??
Most fans know that it was around 1967 that Mick started to write whole songs

Back to this, now old, discussion.
You asked who believes that Keith was the main songwriter of the band. I forgot Keith! Did he not say in his book that "in general" he comes up with a song and Mick "finished" it? Maybe he thought about the early 60ies and pretended that it was like that for the following 40 years, because it is clearly the opposite of what Taylor and Wood say.

Keith is very blurry in regard to which period he's talking about in his book.

It's obvious to anyone who follows the Stones that Mick has been the main song writer from the early 70s and up till today.

Mick even said so in an 1978 interview:

"I think Before They Make Me Run is the first whole song Keith has written since Happy"...

However, Keith was the main song writer prior to - and during - the era that many fans consider the best (68-72)...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-31 10:02 by DandelionPowderman.

Quote
Doxa

Quote
Witness
Only a subjective remark, probably without consequence if one does not love UNDERCOVER: In some way "Undercover" (despite the title of the album) and "She Was Hot" mainly involve their own songs separately, whereas it is "Tie You Up (The Pain of Love" ) that defines the album (dare I say its theme and feeling) and unites and integrates those two first grand songs to this album, making them assets for it. So important and vital is that third song of the album. More or less, a key track to this album.

I agree with you there. Both "Undercover of the Night" and "She Was Hot" gives a wrong signal of the nature of the album (as "Too Much Blood" later as well). UNDERCOVER, if anything, is defined of those what I call typical Pathe Marconi numbers. Not too much idea in song writing or focus but the band having a nice groove going on, when some sort of idea or sketch is given. I think "Tie You Up" sets the mood for the rest come. Great band and great musicianship, but damn lazy song-writing.

- Doxa

However, as to the years the Stones were one of the bands that defined what rock, broadly speaking, and its subspecies were to be, one question is: Was not some of their greatness also contributed by songideas that some at the time called "unmelodical", "lazy" or whatever? That was, is and have always been part of the style of some of their music, and has interspersed the more explicit great song ideas? Only that among diehards it becomes an objection outside the subperiods of their fancy for the band, but not within them, where such songs are praised. I think that "Pretty Beat Up" is a very interesting song of its kind as much as "Turd on the Run" (not in any way from me meant as an objection to the latter). And I find "Pretty Beat Up" much more appealing and to the point than the preceding album's "Neighbours" and that song's .....well "lazy songwriting", I might borrow the term applied to an album I in turn have reservations to? All in all, where DIRTY WORK probably might be said to have markedly poorer song ideas, measured against their own collected output, I find the more albumtypical songs on UNDERCOVER to be good or very good of a “robust” kind of songs.

So in my case, my earlier post was obviously not in any way meant to diminish the album , but, on the contrary, was intended to direct the interest to the other songs as well, “outside” the two more broadly accepted first tracks (and "Too Much Blood" ).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-31 10:31 by Witness.

<That was, is and have always been part of the style of some of their music, and has interspersed the more explicit great song ideas?>

That is so true!

Songs like Rip This Joint, Shake Your Hips, Casino Boogie, Turd On The Run, Soul Survivor, Silver Train or Hide Your Love are hailed as great songs by many fans.

The song writing or the playing/production on songs like Pretty Beat Up, Love Is Strong, Tie You Up, Too Tough or All The Way Down is not inferior to the aforementioned songs, imo.

The cred and the rep of Exile and the so-called "big four" albums makes it easier to diss songs that are just as good as single tracks taken from the "golden era".

I would listen to Tie You Up instead of Turd On The Run any day, though, if I had to choose. I like them both, but things need to be put into perspective.

Saying that songs are merely grooves, and that they don't show any developement in song writing, is a paradox when we are discussing the Stones. GS is three chords played over and over again, abrupted by a few one-chord stops.

It IS the groove that makes the Stones what they are, the sleazier and more swinging, the better, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-31 10:44 by DandelionPowderman.

Quote
Doxa


What else? "Undercover of The Night" and "She Was Hot" truely are very good songs, shining diamonds in that context. I admire what they try to do in "Too Much Blood", but unfortunately the result does not work for me.



- Doxa

I agree. Though the title is a big so so. In a way it's great but the lyrics? Forced. And it seems to be a production number more than a song. In that sense it is the ADHD trashy godson of Gimme Shelter.

Too much blood hasn't aged well but I still think of it as an interesting song and I ail always like it because of the Rewind video. Not the songs video but because it was included in Rewind. And why did they make Rewind, was it to promote Stones new MTV videos by showing their legacy? I think so.

Undercover has some good highlights but I think Bridges to Babylon is their best after Tattoo you. Great mix of styles and quite rockin. Stones would have had much stronger albums in the later years if they used some of Ronnie Woods songs. "Slide on this" has some killer tracks the Stones could have gone off on.

I think the production, the SOUND of UC, is awful, just lacking punch.

I LIKE the record, or the songs, fine. I dont like the sound of it

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<That was, is and have always been part of the style of some of their music, and has interspersed the more explicit great song ideas?>

That is so true!

Songs like Rip This Joint, Shake Your Hips, Casino Boogie, Turd On The Run, Soul Survivor, Silver Train or Hide Your Love are hailed as great songs by many fans.

The song writing or the playing/production on songs like Pretty Beat Up, Love Is Strong, Tie You Up, Too Tough or All The Way Down is not inferior to the aforementioned songs, imo.


The cred and the rep of Exile and the so-called "big four" albums makes it easier to diss songs that are just as good as single tracks taken from the "golden era".

I would listen to Tie You Up instead of Turd On The Run any day, though, if I had to choose. I like them both, but things need to be put into perspective.

Saying that songs are merely grooves, and that they don't show any developement in song writing, is a paradox when we are discussing the Stones. GS is three chords played over and over again, abrupted by a few one-chord stops.

It IS the groove that makes the Stones what they are, the sleazier and more swinging, the better, imo.

I have always thought that there is more than the "groove" that makes Stones tunes great songs. But if for you "Pretty Beat Up" is equal to "Gimme Shelter", let it be so, but for me there is more in song-writing. The genious of the Stones have been for me making diamonds of some theoretically simple ideas, but I don't hear much that in UNDERCOVER.

The reason why I call those UNDERCOVER tunes "lazy-writing" is that I hear some laziness and non-inspiration in the air. The ideas simply are not very inspiring to construct more worked-out songs, or if they are, the guys are too lazy to finish them properly. The question is not that of work ethics but more that of inspiration. I think especially Jagger is here one to blame. Maybe they are just tired creatively, I don't know. Some focus is missing. (But still UNDERCOVER has a certain charm of 'not going anywhere', and the guys being arrogant enough to just trust on their basic doings and routines, which still sounds rather vital).

But I don't hear that, for example, in EXILE gems like "Rip This Joint" or "Soul Survivor" of the songs you listed above. They simply are inspired songs based on fresh ideas per se. Listening to them one can hear how focused they were, in the very height of their powers. Comparin the finished version to Keith's sketch of "Soul Survivor (relaesed in SOME GIRLS bonus album), alone shows how damn inspired and focused Jagger was. Keith was so inspired that recicled the main riff to a couple of tunes ever since... Like argued above, EXILE was that sort of album that they were able to do once in a life time. The 'looseness' of it, and using ideas they wouldn't have dared earlier, was build on the strong and strict - even disciplined - body of work preceding it. They just let them relax there, and just follow their instincts (with marvellous results). But that is a dangerous road to follow, if your ideas are not so inspiring and fresh any longer, and your insticts so spot on either.

There is a lot of that 'looseness' in Pathe Marconi Era as well - and SOME GIRLS is a masterpiece - but starting by EMOTIONAL RESCUE and definitively by UNDERCOVER I start to hear the symptoms of running out of fresh, inspiring ideas, and more just relying on old routines. As albums EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER are to SOME GIRLS like GOATS HEAD SOUP and IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL are to EXILE. (But that said, altogether GOATS HEAD SOUP and IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL contain way stronger song-writing as UNDERCOVER)


- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-31 13:35 by Doxa.

Quote
Doxa

Quote
DandelionPowderman
<That was, is and have always been part of the style of some of their music, and has interspersed the more explicit great song ideas?>

That is so true!

Songs like Rip This Joint, Shake Your Hips, Casino Boogie, Turd On The Run, Soul Survivor, Silver Train or Hide Your Love are hailed as great songs by many fans.

The song writing or the playing/production on songs like Pretty Beat Up, Love Is Strong, Tie You Up, Too Tough or All The Way Down is not inferior to the aforementioned songs, imo.


The cred and the rep of Exile and the so-called "big four" albums makes it easier to diss songs that are just as good as single tracks taken from the "golden era".

I would listen to Tie You Up instead of Turd On The Run any day, though, if I had to choose. I like them both, but things need to be put into perspective.

Saying that songs are merely grooves, and that they don't show any developement in song writing, is a paradox when we are discussing the Stones. GS is three chords played over and over again, abrupted by a few one-chord stops.

It IS the groove that makes the Stones what they are, the sleazier and more swinging, the better, imo.

I have always thought that there is more than the "groove" that makes Stones tunes great songs. But if for you "Pretty Beat Up" is equal to "Gimme Shelter", let it be so, but for me there is more in song-writing. The genious of the Stones have been for me making diamonds of some theoretically simple ideas, but I don't hear much that in UNDERCOVER.

The reason why I call those UNDERCOVER tunes "lazy-writing" is that I hear some laziness and non-inspiration in the air. The ideas simply are not very inspiring to construct more worked-out songs, or if they are, the guys are too lazy to finish them properly. The question is not that of work ethics but more that of inspiration. I think especially Jagger is here one to blame. Maybe they are just tired creatively, I don't know. Some focus is missing. (But still UNDERCOVER has a certain charm of 'not going anywhere', and the guys being arrogant enough to just trust on their basic doings and routines, which still sounds rather vital).

But I don't hear that, for example, in EXILE gems like "Rip This Joint" or "Soul Survivor" of the songs you listed above. They simply are inspired songs based on fresh ideas per se. Listening to them one can hear how focused they were, in the very height of their powers. Comparin the finished version to Keith's sketch of "Soul Survivor (relaesed in SOME GIRLS bonus album), alone shows how damn inspired and focused Jagger was. Keith was so inspired that recicled the main riff to a couple of tunes ever since... Like argued above, EXILE was that sort of album that they were able to do once in a life time. The 'looseness' of it, and using ideas they wouldn't have dared earlier, was build on the strong and strict - even disciplined - body of work preceding it. They just let them relax there, and just follow their instincts (with marvellous results). But that is a dangerous road to follow, if your ideas are not so inspiring and fresh any longer, and your insticts so spot on either.

There is a lot of that 'looseness' in Pathe Marconi Era as well - and SOME GIRLS is a masterpiece - but starting by EMOTIONAL RESCUE and definitively by UNDERCOVER I start to hear the symptoms of running out of fresh, inspiring ideas, and more just relying on old routines. As albums EMOTIONAL RESCUE and UNDERCOVER are to SOME GIRLS like GOATS HEAD SOUP and IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL are to EXILE. (But that said, altogether GOATS HEAD SOUP and IT'S ONLY ROCK'N'ROLL contain way stronger song-writing as UNDERCOVER)


- Doxa

...but your saying Some Girls is a masterpiece I think is flawed. It implies it's on par with the Big Four, which it certainly is not. I know for certain that I actually listen to Emotional Rescue, Tattoo You and Undercover more than I do Some Girls. That's simply a matter of preference of course, but whereas there are obviously some stellar cuts on Some Girls, the title track, Miss You, BOB, BTMMR, there is also some material very average.

I'm not comparing GS to Pretty Beat Up, merely showing what you can get out of songs that not necessarily is "well-written" per se.

I for one think I have to disagree that the three implicated albums relate to earlier albums in the way you indicate, Doxa, even in an analogical way. However, in part, with one exception, but in another direction: I have myself sometimes thought about UNDERCOVER as a "Main Street Revisited, 10 Years On" (not to be taken as an exact date).

The only song on this album that could enter into a comparison with "Gimme Shelter", would have to be "Undercover" itself. Simply out of theme and emotions of the song. (Well it might have been "Too much Blood.", as to theme, perhaps.) The comparison I introduced, regarding "Pretty Beat Up", was "Turd on the Run", which seemed to be Dandelion's starting point, too. It would have been interesting to read your comment, Doxa, on "Pretty Beat Up" vs "Turd on the Run". Not necessarily, which is the best, but as to types of songs featuring.

Neither will I neglect the importance of their songwriting. Therefore I referred to part of their music as being of this more "robust type" both then and later. I myself find those songs on UNDERCOVER to be inspired , and they always emerge as fresh when I play that album.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-31 15:12 by Witness.

I can't believe there is any relation to SG or "the big four" with Undercover.
Crikey..people draw long bows on this thread.
The album Undercover was a flop and is not one of the band's good albums.
Yes I like 3 songs from the album but that's it.

The relation to SG is obviously because of the recording studio and the sound - although two of the three singles have a different sound/production.

The album got good reviews when it came out, and wasn't a flop, even though it didn't sell as good as the prior three release - which btw were the Stones's best selling albums...

It was a flop when it comes to The Rolling Stones..

Quote
Eleanor Rigby
I can't believe there is any relation to SG or "the big four" with Undercover.
Crikey..people draw long bows on this thread.
The album Undercover was a flop and is not one of the band's good albums.
Yes I like 3 songs from the album but that's it.

Who cares how many copies it sold as to how good it is?

When I say I like Undercover or B2B or anything post Taylor era, it's not the same as saying I like Exile or Sticky Fingers. It's kind of like saying I really enjoyed the gourment meal I had last night, as opposed to saying those fries I got at McDonalds were really good yesterday. But, adjusted for expectations, I think Undercover is a really unique record in their catalog.