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DandelionPowderman
You read me like the devil reads the bible.
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His MajestyQuote
DandelionPowderman
You read me like the devil reads the bible.
How can a non existent entity read a silly book?
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OpenG
DP - MM is a great studio performance but I think there best studio song is Winter again the stones sounding magical without Keith. MT's playing helps Jagger with his singing and with the melody same can be said with songs like 100 Years Ago and TWFNO again MT's helps jagger with the melody and especially with 100 years Ago jagger is singing in a different style as they take chances. Also on Hide Your Love - jaggers vocal delivery is just great. So with MT presence they do stuff outside the box and do not sound like Keith's idea of how the stones should sound
play the guitar boy
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DoxaQuote
OpenG
DP - MM is a great studio performance but I think there best studio song is Winter again the stones sounding magical without Keith. MT's playing helps Jagger with his singing and with the melody same can be said with songs like 100 Years Ago and TWFNO again MT's helps jagger with the melody and especially with 100 years Ago jagger is singing in a different style as they take chances. Also on Hide Your Love - jaggers vocal delivery is just great. So with MT presence they do stuff outside the box and do not sound like Keith's idea of how the stones should sound
play the guitar boy
Yeah, it is especially those songs song you mentioned - "Moonlight Mile", "100 Years Ago", "Winter", "Time Waits For No One" - which represent me Taylor's most efficient and unique contribution in enrichening the musical vocabulary of the Stones (as far as their studio works go). In those songs Taylor really steps into musical command with Jagger and leads the band into new adventures (and one could say, steps really into Brian's shoes as well). The co-work of two Mick's gets the band to a new level of expression, and it is pretty hard to find such musical landscapes prior of after them. There is that kind of reflective, mature, lyrical, even melancholic feel in them - the qualities Jagger reflects in his song-writing and in his vocal delivery but is pretty much channeling Taylor's bluesy but still melodical way of playing the guitar.
Of that special connection of the two Micks I think "Winter" is the most shining example - even though over-all I would rate "Moonlight Mile" over it - the way Jagger's vocals match with Taylor's guitar, having a dialogue, each reflecting the other, feeding each other, almost like singing a duetto - is simply haunting and sublime, musically so naturally flowing, and to me one of the greatest moments ever captured on a record by the Rolling Stones.
It is also songs like these I think Taylor was a perfect or lucky choice for them to choose in 1969. I can't see of any other British top level blues guitar gods having that kind of melodic finesse in their playing to take the band into "Moonlight Mile" route. Many could have played the rockers Taylor did, and showing flashy guitar there, but it is especially the ballad section where Taylor's unique touch shines.
- Doxa
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DandelionPowderman
I Don't Know Why and Can You Hear The Music deserve a mention here, maybe even more than a couple of the songs you're talking about here, imo. Well, it's all about taste, of course - but the efficiency of what Taylor brings on those two songs is astonishing for me.
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Doxa
"Winter", "Time Waits For No One"
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Doxa
"Winter", "Time Waits For No One"
Those are both pretty terrible songs!
Nowhere near the aceness of Moonlight Mile.
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bitusa2012
Winter is a stunner
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bitusa2012
Winter is a stunner
More like a minger!
Shite lyrics, weak melody, too much fake manerism from Jagger, lighters in the air moments with the cheesey guitar soloing. Gadz.
A cheap combination of Moonlight Mile and YCAGWYW.
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DandelionPowderman
I Don't Know Why and Can You Hear The Music deserve a mention here, maybe even more than a couple of the songs you're talking about here, imo. Well, it's all about taste, of course - but the efficiency of what Taylor brings on those two songs is astonishing for me.
I am afraid that if you say that those two songs represent better the ideas than the examples I offered, that barely shows that you really don't understand or want to understand what I try to say. It is the co-work of Jagger and Taylor - their connection - that constitutes the uniqueness and musical foundation of those tracks. I guess for you who deny that Taylor never really had a real contribution to the very constitution of Stones music, or being integral part of the band in the creative sense, that is just bullshit. For you I guess Taylor's greatness is 'just' isolated guitar leads and solos you can compare one against each other, them being like added cherries to already baked cake. But I see Taylor's efficiency in a larger scale, of which "inspiring" (whatever that supposed to mean) or 'sparring' Jagger being not the least. I mean, if you can effect on Jagger, you will effect on the Stones sound. And if you are the first person with whom Jagger starts to labor his song sketches to a finished form, you surely will have a say how the song ends up sounding like. (And especially when there is no Keith Richards around).
So, I don't think "I Don't Know Why" belongs at all to the category of songs I listed above. Not that being 'just' a cover, I don't think Taylor either is much integrated to the band sound yet. There he is 'just' a wonderful guitarist doing his bit. He does a 'efficient' job in that sense - even though sounding a bit isolated - but not in the sense I was talking about above. There is not yet that special connection and mutual 'understanding' between him and Jagger yet. "Can You Hear The Music" is a better example - Taylor belongs to the constitution by being very integral part of the whole song feel - but as a song it doesn't quite fit to the melodic bluesy ballads territory I referred to (even though there are those 'Eastern meets West' elements in it like in "Moonlight Mile"). Of other 'not making the category I meant' Jagger/Taylor run pieces, I would mention "Hide Your Love" and, of course, "Sway". "Stop Breaking Down", in a way, as well.
What is phenomenal in about all those pieces is that Keith's contribution (both song-writing- and instrumental-wise) is minimal, and despite that, they manage to create authentic sounding Rolling Stones tracks, sounding naturally 'Stonesy' but still offering something 'different' and unique. Most of the songs are based on Jagger/Taylor co-work in instrumental level (both playing guitars, sometimes Mick in piano). Either of them is actually substituting Keith in the 'normal' order (and it is these tracks where Jagger started to play the guitar when Keith was absent). But they seem to 'click' damn well together. Interesting little phase in the Stones history (which seemingly happened thanks to Keith's extra curricular activities...). Prior that it would have been Keith to whom Jagger would have presented his song sketch, and they would together think what they would do with it, and how to develop it further (think of "Sympathy for The Devil", "You Can't Always Get What You Want", "Brown Sugar",etc.). Now that person, in that little phase, was Taylor.
- Doxa
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bitusa2012
Nup. A stunner. Complements Coming Down Again absolutely perfectly.
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bitusa2012
Winter is a stunner
More like a minger!
Shite lyrics, weak melody, too much fake manerism from Jagger, lighters in the air moments with the cheesey guitar soloing. Gadz.
A cheap combination of Moonlight Mile and YCAGWYW.
Nup. A stunner. Complements Coming Down Again absolutely perfectly.
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DandelionPowderman
<To me those two songs are not so much related.>
They're not related at all. Coming Down Again is a brilliant mood-piece, whilst Winter tries to be it, imo.
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DandelionPowderman
You should stop listening to others, and instead trust your own ears..
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DandelionPowderman
You have no musical grounds for saying that there is a difference, except for that Keith wasn't there to record Winter. You don't know if the strings were arranged first - before Taylor laid down his guitar theme (which has nothing to do with what Mick sings, btw - one tiny exception, though), and you don't know how the song would have sounded with strings only on those themes.
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DandelionPowderman
You have no musical grounds for saying that there is a difference, except for that Keith wasn't there to record Winter. You don't know if the strings were arranged first - before Taylor laid down his guitar theme (which has nothing to do with what Mick sings, btw - one tiny exception, though), and you don't know how the song would have sounded with strings only on those themes.
I have. Keith has no input whatsoever in those songs, songs that Jagger directly or between the lines says were created from the unique collaboration of Jagger/Taylor. It's obvious that Jagger even told Taylor he'd be credited later on, namley get credits on their 1974 album, the same year he told Taylor he wanted to kick Keith out of the band.
Had this been a lesser known band they'd probably be able to speak out but since this is a huge corporation everything has to be done in regards to making money and keeping power. Jagger/Richards is power and heritage and part of the corporations legacy.
I get that, I'd do the same had I been Jagger in 1974. Theres nothing wrong in it from that perspective but if you think of it in musical terms there are many "wrongdoings" in the Stones recording history.
Giving co-credits in 1997 doesnt affect anything anymore but in 1962-1981 credits were an integral part of their identity and part of the whole idea of having a band. Everyone in the 60s compared themselves to Lennon/McCartney. Today McCartney is trying to change some credits to McCartney/Lennon.
That's the power and meaning of credits.
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DandelionPowderman
I wrote "even more Stonesy". "Authentic-sounding and naturally Stonesy" would be the correct quoting of you. That's my bad (even though I still disagree).
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DandelionPowderman
You assume a lot, and present it as facts, too.
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OpenG
More on Winter - Melodic Wonderment To My Ears
There are so many examples of Taylor getting Jagger to sing his ass off (or jagger would of been on record flat (we all know jagger at best he sings
around the notes) but with Taylor's vibrato that changed especially on the songs they collaborated on that were magical moments on record(moonlight,TWFNO
etc. But the greatest example is on Winter where there collaboration is two fold. Listen to jagger's sweet delivery after each verse against Taylor's guitar. As jagger sings 'wrap my coat around you woman' that fine beautiful moment its jagger's turn to influence Taylor that sets up MT's brilliant melodic wonderment. That solo stops time for me as I dive into his tonal lines.
This song could of not sounded this way with just Keith and Mick collaboration - what would be missing is the lack of obviuous guitar lines and Jagger not diving into the song going outside the box
play the guitar boy
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OpenG
Yeah and on SWAY - Jagger sings with that BAD attitude that sets up MT's blistering outro solo.
These are all examples of the working relationship with MT and MJ while Keith is MIA.
play that guitar boy