Smetimes KR reminds me a bullfighter called Curro Romero. Sometimes he is brilliant, the best,but most of the time he is in suboptimal circunstances

"haha, well, you really are watching a different SAL than I do -on She Was Hot Richards literally doesn't have a clue what song the band is playing. He figures out the first chord of the verses, and as he doesn't know the rest that's all he does: pointless noodling in G.

Mathijs"

No point in arguing but I'm home, bored and so I will anyway. You've got to be kidding. I just listened again to She Was Hot from SAL just to give you the benefit of the doubt. No way is Keith "lost." He moves through every chord change perectly and his licks fit the song. His solo is perfect. His melodic lines in the chorus are right in key and blend with Wood just right. Maybe a different version of SAL was released where I live.

Quote
Mathijs

Quote
71Tele
Mathjis, I've played guitar for 35 years and am very familiar with both the Stones' and Berry's canon. As with many things which seem simple (such as Keith's own open-G playing), it is easy to grasp the surface technical part. But there are nuances in Berry's playing that even as a pro I still don't get. Part of it had to do with his mammoth-sized hands, but there are subleties to the double-stop stuff he does that not even Keith got accurately. Yes, any mediocre bar mitzvah and wedding band guitar player can play a reasonable "Johnny B Goode", but Berry's was a master and only a few have really "got" him.

We're both saying the same thing, I totally agree. It's what I meant with the intro of Little Queenie -first grade guitar school stuff, but impossible to replicate by mere mortals like us.

Check out the first two videos in this thread -the guy has all the technicalities spot on, but in the end he totally misses the mark with his sound and his dead-on timing.

My point with Richards with Costello is: it sounds like Keith hasn't touched a guitar in four years, and has lost his sense of rhythm completely. I personally don't mind, as I am not waiting for a 2012 tour at all. But for the people and press waiting for this to happen, I think the last two public outings of Richards is just plain bad news.

Mathijs

yes, I more or less agree with you. I think the innate sense of timing is what has really changed with Keith. Don't know how he gets that back, but without it, Keith is not the same player. I don't know if this loss is from not touching a guitar for a long time or some other reason. Anything further is speculation on my part. I'm no medical or neuralogical expert.

I'm reading the comments here after both hearing the soundcloud file and watching the youtube. All I have to say is wow - many of you are hardcore apologists!

If that sad video from a few days ago didn't convince me that Keith likely may not be able to pull off a show - yeah I said "a show" not 'tour (FORGET that!!!), then this seals it shut for me.

That's not to say they won't do it, but I sure as hell don't think they should, and I'm not paying any cash for a ticket that would break my heart even further.

I'm not surprised at all the excuses that people are throwing around.
"Oh, it's not his guitar", as a guitar player myself I can say that that's NO excuse for his 'playing' at all. I mean how many different guitars has he played in his life? And if the guitar is out of tune, how hard is it to be aware after srtumming it once???

"Oh, well the music was seemingly unrehearsed". This is not Rush, this is not Dream Theatre, this is a 3-chord Chuck Berry song for bloody's sake! It's the music that should be imprinted in Keith's DNA. Hell, he's the world's ultimate Chuck Berry tribute/plagarist!

I even read someone saying "well Elvis Costello was on vocals"... and??? what has that got to do with anything?

It shouldn't matter about the guitar. If shouldn't matter if he's rehearsed or not - he's Keith bloody Richards. If Keith is unable to even pull a simple 3-chord song based on the MOST BASIC dusty riffs that he's built his career on replicating... without sounding like a permanent rehabilitation patient... then either The Stones are done, or even more sadly, they should be done.

Too bad for the other guys, but the thought of a Stnes tour without Keith would make too many people go postal.

[thepowergoats.com]

i dabble in medical and neurological matters as a hobby and i can without hestitation tell you with 100% confidence that keith stunk at the beacon. this is my expert/hobby medical opinion, remember.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-27 21:31 by StonesTod.

Quote
Carnaby

Quote
Happy24




Can it get any better? He has other Berry covers and also some great covers of The Stones

Try this, I think you'll like it better-

The second guy. The first guy has too much distortion in it for me.

As for Keith, "Time Ain't on His Side", but that don't mean a little spit'n'polish
can't revive that shine. His arthur is rather advanced though ... it's sidelined
Ginger Baker, after all. Is it possible he need The Mates to kick it up his butt?

"Time Waits for No Man"

Quote
Mathijs
...I am not waiting for a 2012 tour at all. But for the people and press waiting for this to happen, I think the last two public outings of Richards is just plain bad news.

Mathijs

+1

HMN

Quote
stonesdan60
No point in arguing but I'm home, bored and so I will anyway. You've got to be kidding. I just listened again to She Was Hot from SAL just to give you the benefit of the doubt. No way is Keith "lost." He moves through every chord change perectly and his licks fit the song. His solo is perfect. His melodic lines in the chorus are right in key and blend with Wood just right. Maybe a different version of SAL was released where I live.

Jeez, if anyone can watch SAL and come away thinking that Keith is perfectly fine--the rose colored glasses need a cleaning. I remember getting the SAL CD when it first came out and counted how many times Keith did that obnoxious "noodle" lick he likes to do and in "She Was Hot" I think he did it more than 10 times in just that song! I wanted to throw my stereo out the window. The biggest problem is that Keith has no idea of the chord changes. He either forgets or doesn't care to remember--I pick the latter. So what does he do? He noodles around in the key of the song and that will slide him by. A wrong chord containing 6 notes is a bigger blunder than one little note--that's why he avoids chords in songs they rarely play--"She Was Hot" being an example, and "Far Away Eyes" or "Undercover of The Night" or "Little T&A" and "Live With Me."

I mentioned in another thread that a lot of people on this board simply are not capable of noticing these issues. Either they don't care to notice or simply unable to notice. And yes a lot of it has to do with being a musician. To be unable to pick out these issues--leaves you in a wonderful state of false illusion. These are the same people who are begging for a new tour while rest of us are worried to hear about their next move. We can never bridge the groups together and it is what it is.

Here are the facts: age has absolutely caught up with Keith. The once invincible Keith is now at the mercy of his body and mind performing the way a 68 year old man's would. It is my personal opinion that it was his head injury that has propelled Keith to this current state. You throw in family life (and hardships) and him simply enjoying his semi-retirement brings us to where we are today. If need be, he would need a rigorous 3 week boot camp session to get back his chops to an acceptable level. And I'm not just talking about "reherasals" with the group. He would need assistance from someone to push him to learn the songs and get reacquianted with the gutiar. The problem is that when they get into reherasals...no one is pushing Keith. And before now--there was no need to. Keith was self-efficient and very independent--not to mention responsible and took his job seriously.

I'm not angry at Keith. Someone has to make these realizations and it's not just me but a few of us on this board. It's not a coincidence that we all feel this way. It's really happening and it sucks. Whether you care to notice or not...this is the reality. I'm very skeptical how a tour--no matter how long or short it would be---would pan out...it is very uncertain. All I know is I'd hate to be in Mick's shoes when it comes time to decide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-27 21:19 by Justin.

Come on guys, give Keith a break! He was wearing a borrowed scarf. Clearly it affected his performance.

Quote
StonesTod
i dabble in medical and neurological matters as a hobby and i can without hestitation tell you with 100% confidence that keith stunk at the beacon. this is my expert/hobby medical opinion, remember.

So should we call you "Dr. StonesTod"? Were you at the Beacon?

good post justin. but you don't need to be a musician to draw that conclusion. and i also disagree that the head injury prompted his decline (it may have exacerbated it), which became first noticeable on the licks tour...it was a precipitous decline for a man who was in full control of his chops just 3 years earlier....

Quote
71Tele

Quote
StonesTod
i dabble in medical and neurological matters as a hobby and i can without hestitation tell you with 100% confidence that keith stunk at the beacon. this is my expert/hobby medical opinion, remember.

So should we call you "Dr. StonesTod"? Were you at the Beacon?

yes i was. first show. second show i was called back into surgery at mount sinai and couldn't attend.

Quote
StonesTod
good post justin. but you don't need to be a musician to draw that conclusion. and i also disagree that the head injury prompted his decline (it may have exacerbated it), which became first noticeable on the licks tour...it was a precipitous decline for a man who was in full control of his chops just 3 years earlier....

Yeah I'll agree with that. To me, the head injury was a huge turning point for Keith. As you said, the decline had already started (I believe it started as early as the B2B tour) and got gradually worse. The head injury really didn't improve matters.

b2b, really? on the NS tour, I thought Keith played as well as I'd ever seen or heard him...then when I saw him up close and personal at the boston orpheum gig in 2002 i was very appalled at the apparent rapid deterioration of his skills....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-27 21:48 by StonesTod.

In principal I agree with you Justin. The decline , for me, became obvious at the start of the Bigger Bang tour in 2005 (before the head injury) After the head injury, it became worse. The last really great live moment for me was I'm Ready which he played somewhere in 2004?
What I noticed in SAL and now again in the Hubert Sumlin tribute was that his singing was better than before. The phrasing of it, all. His singing has improved in recent years. The guitar playing to me, was acceptable in the Hubert Sumlin Tribute. If he can impove upon this gig, I can see a short tour in one form or the other. The playing with Costello was indeed painful to hear. But this was, as is seems, a very spontanious act by Keith and Elvis and totally unrehearsed. The Keith from 20 years ago could have handled this better? Of course.
I think it is VERY hard for Keith to accept his decline in playing. I do hope to see some show, in one way or the other (with all his bandmates) where we can show him some respect for all he has given us with music.
God this this hard to write!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-27 23:02 by barbabang.

Yeah the NS tour was overall really fantastic but I sensed a dip on the second leg of the B2B tour...European/Asian shows.

When the NS tour came around I saw the onset of the "slacking off" and it came through again during the newer songs like "Some Girls" "Just My Imagination" and especially "Moonlight Mile." He whips through "Some Girls" with some beefy leads but absolutley no chords. This was the first time I noticed this behavior. "Moonlight Mile" is basically all Ronnie and Mick...no Keith. He does some twangy stuff here and there but basically stays in the background. I was incredibly dissapointed by that. He redeems himself on songs like "I Got The Blues" or "Get off My Cloud" but this was the beginning of me seeing the inconsistencies. He was always so consistent; playing at a level where you saw and heard a guy who knew these songs. Those holes in the playing got bigger and bigger as we moved on to the Licks and ABB tours.

Quote
carlitosbaez
The whole video of the ceremony is here, at the Dirty Rock Youtube Channel beside three videos posted here, enjoy!!!
[www.youtube.com]

Carlitos Tenerife

Many thanks! Lovely to see Keef smiling and playing.

Quote
Justin
Yeah the NS tour was overall really fantastic but I sensed a dip on the second leg of the B2B tour...European/Asian shows.

When the NS tour came around I saw the onset of the "slacking off" and it came through again during the newer songs like "Some Girls" "Just My Imagination" and especially "Moonlight Mile." He whips through "Some Girls" with some beefy leads but absolutley no chords.

Yep.

Maybe Keith can learn to play w/ 4 strings?

Quote
barbabang

Quote
Justin
Yeah the NS tour was overall really fantastic but I sensed a dip on the second leg of the B2B tour...European/Asian shows.

When the NS tour came around I saw the onset of the "slacking off" and it came through again during the newer songs like "Some Girls" "Just My Imagination" and especially "Moonlight Mile." He whips through "Some Girls" with some beefy leads but absolutley no chords.

Yep.

arthritis, no doubt. keith began migrating from his power-chording to so-called "noodling" around this time....to ease the pressure on his hands....

It was a perfect storm really. We really must add the backup musicians to the mix. I'm not blaming them for anything but honestly, I totally get Keith's willingness to throw his feet up and relax when he has Blondie on guitar, Daryl holding a bass line purely on root changes and Chuck playing the keyboard on the mid-range of the piano. Someone here once pointed out wisely that it's that middle area that Chuck plays in that is equally similar to the level of a guitar---that middle octave. Playing them both simultanously--they blend so wonderfully together, they almost act as padding for each other. You get Chuck to play in the higher keys...an octave higher..that leaves Keith hanging out to dry. If he knows the chords--great! No problem. If he doesn't...he's dropping clunkers everywhere and it'll be noticed. So because Chuck is a nice guy he may have realized "Oh crap, Keith is slagging off. I gotta try my best to cover his ass..." this started enabling Keith. But now it's at a point of no return. Keith has gotten used to the fact that the overall sound of the band will not suffer if he doesn't play his guitar...it will go on without him. It's a perfect storm to just say "Damn my fingers are killing me. Ah screw it these guys got it...I could breeze through this..." And that's basically what's happened.

Quote
barbabang
last really great live moment for me was I'm Ready which he played somewhere in 2004?

Yes that is definitely a great moment. Some wonderful guitar work...nothing earth-shattering but a fantastic feel. He's energetic and he's done his homework. When you're up there and confident...the playing comes through.

Quote
Justin
It was a perfect storm really. We really must add the backup musicians to the mix. I'm not blaming them for anything but honestly, I totally get Keith's willingness to throw his feet up and relax when he has Blondie on guitar, Daryl holding a bass line purely on root changes and Chuck playing the keyboard on the mid-range of the piano. Someone here once pointed out wisely that it's that middle area that Chuck plays in that is equally similar to the level of a guitar---that middle octave. Playing them both simultanously--they blend so wonderfully together, they almost act as padding for each other. You get Chuck to play in the higher keys...an octave higher..that leaves Keith hanging out to dry. If he knows the chords--great! No problem. If he doesn't...he's dropping clunkers everywhere and it'll be noticed. So because Chuck is a nice guy he may have realized "Oh crap, Keith is slagging off. I gotta try my best to cover his ass..." this started enabling Keith. But now it's at a point of no return. Keith has gotten used to the fact that the overall sound of the band will not suffer if he doesn't play his guitar...it will go on without him. It's a perfect storm to just say "Damn my fingers are killing me. Ah screw it these guys got it...I could breeze through this..." And that's basically what's happened.

Very, very well put. I feel exactly the same way as you, once again.

[thepowergoats.com]

Quote
jamesfdouglas
I'm reading the comments here after both hearing the soundcloud file and watching the youtube. All I have to say is wow - many of you are hardcore apologists!

If that sad video from a few days ago didn't convince me that Keith likely may not be able to pull off a show - yeah I said "a show" not 'tour (FORGET that!!!), then this seals it shut for me.

That's not to say they won't do it, but I sure as hell don't think they should, and I'm not paying any cash for a ticket that would break my heart even further.

I'm not surprised at all the excuses that people are throwing around.
"Oh, it's not his guitar", as a guitar player myself I can say that that's NO excuse for his 'playing' at all. I mean how many different guitars has he played in his life? And if the guitar is out of tune, how hard is it to be aware after srtumming it once???

"Oh, well the music was seemingly unrehearsed". This is not Rush, this is not Dream Theatre, this is a 3-chord Chuck Berry song for bloody's sake! It's the music that should be imprinted in Keith's DNA. Hell, he's the world's ultimate Chuck Berry tribute/plagarist!

I even read someone saying "well Elvis Costello was on vocals"... and??? what has that got to do with anything?

It shouldn't matter about the guitar. If shouldn't matter if he's rehearsed or not - he's Keith bloody Richards. If Keith is unable to even pull a simple 3-chord song based on the MOST BASIC dusty riffs that he's built his career on replicating... without sounding like a permanent rehabilitation patient... then either The Stones are done, or even more sadly, they should be done.

Too bad for the other guys, but the thought of a Stnes tour without Keith would make too many people go postal.

Since I pressume you are partially referring to my comments let me set something straight: First of all Keith's performance at the Hubert Sumlin tribute wasn't that bad. His rendition of LRR sounded uninspired mainly due to the out of key harpplaying (no apology but a simple fact). Which could be an indication that the musicians didn't spend a lot of time rehearsing together (speculation, no apology).

As a guitarplayer I know by experience that a guitar with the 'wrong' strings and action etc. can seriously diminish one's musical performance. Sure he still can play the thing but it could have been somewhat of an obstruction.

Me mentioning Elvis Costello as a 'factor' was just a joke (hence the winking emoticon). On the other hand a musician's performance is also depending on the chemistry between him and the people he's playing with (fact, no speculation nor apology).

Playing three chord songs might be basic but delivering a decent Chuck Berry riff isn't. Keith didn't get up on that stage to shine and get our approval or to prove he's the greatest guitarplayer on earth nor to satisfy a paying audience. He just played a couple of licks in honor of his musical inspirator Chuck Berry, which as a gesture is far more important than any bumnote he might have played.

It is indeed not Rush or Dream Theatre .... so let's not expect it to be 'flawless'.

www.rsundercover.eu

Quote
StonesTod

Quote
71Tele

Quote
StonesTod
i dabble in medical and neurological matters as a hobby and i can without hestitation tell you with 100% confidence that keith stunk at the beacon. this is my expert/hobby medical opinion, remember.

So should we call you "Dr. StonesTod"? Were you at the Beacon?

yes i was. first show. second show i was called back into surgery at mount sinai and couldn't attend.

I was at the first show. I didn't see you!

Quote
Justin

Quote
stonesdan60
No point in arguing but I'm home, bored and so I will anyway. You've got to be kidding. I just listened again to She Was Hot from SAL just to give you the benefit of the doubt. No way is Keith "lost." He moves through every chord change perectly and his licks fit the song. His solo is perfect. His melodic lines in the chorus are right in key and blend with Wood just right. Maybe a different version of SAL was released where I live.

Jeez, if anyone can watch SAL and come away thinking that Keith is perfectly fine--the rose colored glasses need a cleaning. I remember getting the SAL CD when it first came out and counted how many times Keith did that obnoxious "noodle" lick he likes to do and in "She Was Hot" I think he did it more than 10 times in just that song! I wanted to throw my stereo out the window. The biggest problem is that Keith has no idea of the chord changes. He either forgets or doesn't care to remember--I pick the latter. So what does he do? He noodles around in the key of the song and that will slide him by. A wrong chord containing 6 notes is a bigger blunder than one little note--that's why he avoids chords in songs they rarely play--"She Was Hot" being an example, and "Far Away Eyes" or "Undercover of The Night" or "Little T&A" and "Live With Me."

I mentioned in another thread that a lot of people on this board simply are not capable of noticing these issues. Either they don't care to notice or simply unable to notice. And yes a lot of it has to do with being a musician. To be unable to pick out these issues--leaves you in a wonderful state of false illusion. These are the same people who are begging for a new tour while rest of us are worried to hear about their next move. We can never bridge the groups together and it is what it is.

Here are the facts: age has absolutely caught up with Keith. The once invincible Keith is now at the mercy of his body and mind performing the way a 68 year old man's would. It is my personal opinion that it was his head injury that has propelled Keith to this current state. You throw in family life (and hardships) and him simply enjoying his semi-retirement brings us to where we are today. If need be, he would need a rigorous 3 week boot camp session to get back his chops to an acceptable level. And I'm not just talking about "reherasals" with the group. He would need assistance from someone to push him to learn the songs and get reacquianted with the gutiar. The problem is that when they get into reherasals...no one is pushing Keith. And before now--there was no need to. Keith was self-efficient and very independent--not to mention responsible and took his job seriously.

I'm not angry at Keith. Someone has to make these realizations and it's not just me but a few of us on this board. It's not a coincidence that we all feel this way. It's really happening and it sucks. Whether you care to notice or not...this is the reality. I'm very skeptical how a tour--no matter how long or short it would be---would pan out...it is very uncertain. All I know is I'd hate to be in Mick's shoes when it comes time to decide.

Justin, all your points here are spot on my friend. What we all must realize is even our biggest hero's finally meet their match. It could be injury, illness or the one that always wins TIME.

All of us have watched our hero's progress over the years and we have seen their skills slowly or abruptly atrophy. There's nothing presently available to stop or reverse this process. Wouldn't it be great if advancements in stem cell research could cure Arthritis, Alzheimer, Heart or other ailments? Alas, in time these things may come to pass. Unfortunately, these miracle cures aren't here now and for those we see slowly fading away, there's nothing to be done accept reality.

Our good friend Carlitos has posted the entire event on his site and I intend to watch all of it today.

Quote
Carnaby
Try this, I think you'll like it better-

I hope you were sarcastic, because that's terrible



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-02-28 13:20 by Koen.

I know I am guilty of it myself sometimes, but we can be a right bunch o' kunts, some of the posts in this and the Hubert thread is total cuntdom.

The decline is obvious, the reasons for it are probably out of Keith's control, thus I feel mocking him for still soldering on, having a bit of fun etc is just kicking the man when he is down.

As a musician who has done so much great stuff, who has made so many people happy through his music... he deserves better treatment.

This video from 1965 shows the skills Keith had in the early days!!
I´m very sad that Keith lost all of his abilities.I think the reason is artritis in his fingers.
A tour without Keith is not a Stones tour!


video: [www.youtube.com]

Quote
CBII
Our good friend Carlitos has posted the entire event on his site and I intend to watch all of it today.

enjoy it CBII! that's what it's for
and please convey congratulations to your father for this cool award.

someone smart once pointed out that we know the faults of people we love,
and don't need to pick them to pieces all the time.