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Title5Take1
The Beatles got sued over IT'S ALL TOO MUCH lifting some lyrics and melody from the Merseys' SORROW (hear below):

Were they actually sued though? Quoting one line from a song during a fadeout is hardly plagiarism.

well hey, it goes round and round, right? there's always been 'theft' of ideas, long as music has been around. sure Zep pilfered old blues riffs and licks and entire songs, even, but they certainly played them with distinction. not giving proper credit was the mistake. they should have acknowledged the artists they were cutting into. but let's not make out that they couldn't write their own material - they certainly had enough of their own creativity to bring to the table. basically though it just goes to prove how the blues which is blueprint of the rock and roll music form. if you can't trace a direct line back from what someone plays now to the blues, well, I don't know what you'd call it, but it sure ain't rock and roll.

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pinkfloydthebarber
well hey, it goes round and round, right? there's always been 'theft' of ideas, long as music has been around. sure Zep pilfered old blues riffs and licks and entire songs, even, but they certainly played them with distinction. not giving proper credit was the mistake. they should have acknowledged the artists they were cutting into. but let's not make out that they couldn't write their own material - they certainly had enough of their own creativity to bring to the table. basically though it just goes to prove how the blues which is blueprint of the rock and roll music form. if you can't trace a direct line back from what someone plays now to the blues, well, I don't know what you'd call it, but it sure ain't rock and roll.

Very well put and I totally agree. It is a fact that all modern music comes from the same place..the blues.

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MTWEMISSYOU
Very well put and I totally agree. It is a fact that all modern music comes from the same place..the blues.

It's not a fact because it isn't true.

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His Majesty

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MTWEMISSYOU
Very well put and I totally agree. It is a fact that all modern music comes from the same place..the blues.

It's not a fact because it isn't true.

Okay its my opinion and alot of other peoples. If you watch the Cream farewell at Royal Albert Hall, Jack Bruce expressed the same opinion and I agree with that.

I do not consider rap and hip-hop to be music at all.

some modern music comes from the same place, the blues, but I wouldn't say 'all.' i mean, for example some modern music might trace back to, i dunno, ratt, poison or journey or def leppard. that ain't blues. that's basically the garbage can . i mean it doesn't matter what you listen to, people listen to what they like. but that doesn't mean it's rock and roll, though. my yardsticl is if i draw a direct line back to muddy waters or chuck or john lee etc., then what you got ain't rock and roll. it's something else. and usually its crappy.

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MTWEMISSYOU

Okay its my opinion and alot of other peoples. If you watch the Cream farewell at Royal Albert Hall, Jack Bruce expressed the same opinion and I agree with that.

I do not consider rap and hip-hop to be music at all.

For various reasons it's a ridiculous opinon and what you consider to be music doesn't matter.

Someone could write something new and intentionally use something which pre-dates blues music as inspiration for their work. This is one of the many ways in which blues has nothing to do with modern music.

but getting back to the main topic, zeppelin's plagiarism; yeah, sure, they pilfered from here and there, the sin being not providing credit. but on the face of things, this was hardly anything new. this has been common practice for many, many bands/ artists since day one. in fact, it's a long and (dis)honourable tradition, depending on your point of view. even with respect to willie dixon, he didn't invent the blues and I'm sure dixon took loads of stuff from earlier songs and took credit for those b/c he knew he could do some business. and that took some balls b/c in those days, if certain blues cats found out you were 'borrowing' their thang, they might well come after you with something a whole lot sharper than a lawsuit. in practical terms though blues and folk musicians begged, borrowed or stole songs, riffs, lyrics, arrangements since the dawn of time. even dylan's been accused of doing the same thing on and off through his career. one person's 'adaptation' is someone else's 'theft'. at one time, there were two bluesman peddling their wares as 'sonny boy williamson. john lee hooker 'borrowed' other people's songs, mind you, he would generally transform the song into his own unique style. muddy waters and robert johnson both borrowed heavily from the style and repertoire of forebears and mentors like son house and charlie patten. charlie parker took the popular song 'cherokee' turned it into the incredible 'Koko', but I haven't heard of lawyers hunting down his estate.
music copyright is a huge grey area. if a lawyer got into this area of 'folk music copyright' too deep, it would be a never ending trip back into the mists of time, from the mississipi delta back to africa and the british isles trying to work out who originated what song, riff, lyric line. back on point, i agree jimmy page was both under-handed and lucky and he had both a lot of money and peter grant to 'bounce' most litigation back where it came from, I'd guess. but let's not kid ourselves that jimmy page was the only one who did this to blues songs, and that artists haven't done this for decades if not hundreds, of years. Imo, music's one big continuum, being invented and reinvented all the way, all the time.

at the end of the day they are a soundtrack for many people's lives just as are the Stones, or Springsteen, or Aerosmith and the Beatles....it's like they were always thers in the 70's...and beyond.

Plant had "Marriot-Itis"

I guess lost of people nick bit and pieces but LZ's rip-off was from top to bottom, inside-out, The Whole Enchilada, with, perhaps, in some cases changing some lyrics like switching getaway cars after a robbery.

Still I listen to them.

I have to admit i am a disappointed with zep , this is way to many songs just to be a coincidence

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HopeYouGuessMyName
This is brain popping information.... but you know what? I STILL LOVE LED ZEPPELIN

+1

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sweetcharmedlife

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HopeYouGuessMyName
This is brain popping information.... but you know what? I STILL LOVE LED ZEPPELIN

+1

+2

Nothing is new....it's as straight forward as that. Zeppelin were giants, their shows were incredible. Superb musicians and songwriters.

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His Majesty

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Title5Take1
The Beatles got sued over IT'S ALL TOO MUCH lifting some lyrics and melody from the Merseys' SORROW (hear below):

Were they actually sued though? Quoting one line from a song during a fadeout is hardly plagiarism.

The following exchange is from a George Harrison interview in the June 19, 1999 issue of BILLBOARD MAGAZINE:

BILLBOARD: "At the end of `It's All Too Much' there are snippets of Jeremiah Clarke's `Prince of Denmark's March' and the Mersey's 1966 [No. 4 U.K.] hit `Sorrow.'"

GEORGE HARRISON: "You mean on the fade out? Yeah, with `Your long blond hair/And your eyes of blue.' That was all just this big ending we had, going out. And as it was in those days, we had the horn players just play a bit of trumpet voluntarily, and so that's how the `Prince of Denmark' bit was played. And John and Paul just came up with and sang that lyric of `Your eyes of blue.' But just a couple of years ago somebody suddenly tried to sue us for that!"

Tried.

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crumbling_mice
Nothing is new....it's as straight forward as that. Zeppelin were giants, their shows were incredible. Superb musicians and songwriters.

Not sure about songwriters. The problem with this whole thing when looking at Zeppelin is thw fact that they stole many of their best songs. They stole a ton for their first 4 albums which are considered their best period. This is comparable to finding out that the Stones stole like 20 songs from their 1968-1972 period. Or the Beatles stole 20 songs from their 1966-1970 period. It would ruin their rep and rightfully so. And lets face it except for the first 4 albums Zeppelin really didn't do that much that is considered great.

So if you like Zepplin and don't care fine, but I could never consider them in the same league as bands like the Beatles or Stones who created a ton of great music on their own. And i think ranking them with the Beatles,Stones, or Dylan on any musical list if laughable. Zeppelin is a great cover band.

Well, since no one's mentioned it.....
"Stoned" (Nanker, Phelge) is a straight rip of Booker T. & The MG's "Green Onions" (Cropper, Jones, Steinberg, Jackson).
I always thought it was super groovy that these guys did a cover of an early Stax hit. A few months later they did "Walking The Dog", of course, another Stax hit.
I also thought it was cool they credited themselves, all six of them, as Stu is very pronounced on this cover. Never released in the states (aside from a couple of DJ copies) is probably the reason why I don't believe any legal action was ever taken.

The Mersey's "Sorrow" was a cover of The McCoys version of the song their producers wrote (Bob Feldman, Jerry Goldstein, and Richard Gottehrer)
It was the B-sde of The McCoys smash hit "Hang On Sloopy".....which was a cover of The Vibrations R&B original hit "My Girl Sloopy" on Atlantic.
"My Girl Sloopy" was written by Bertrand Russel (Bert Burns) who also wrote the R&B hit "Piece Of My Heart" for Erma Franklin (Aretha's sister) but was also made a hit by Janis Joplin.
Berns also wrote "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love" for Solomon Burke which was one of several Berns songs to be covered by The Rolling Stones. 1960's rock was a big old bowl of soup all mixed together, wasn't it?

i had no problem with them borrowing stuff. its the fact that when they would get caught they would tell obvious lies trying to avoid paying royalties to the people that deserved them

AND ALL THE STONES COULD DO IS RIP OFF KD LANG? SHEESH.

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punkfloyd
AND ALL THE STONES COULD DO IS RIP OFF KD LANG? SHEESH.

if she is credited as a co-writer how did they rip her off?

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His Majesty

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MTWEMISSYOU

Okay its my opinion and alot of other peoples. If you watch the Cream farewell at Royal Albert Hall, Jack Bruce expressed the same opinion and I agree with that.

I do not consider rap and hip-hop to be music at all.

For various reasons it's a ridiculous opinon and what you consider to be music doesn't matter.

Someone could write something new and intentionally use something which pre-dates blues music as inspiration for their work. This is one of the many ways in which blues has nothing to do with modern music.

The Prog bands, for example, whose music had more to do with folk and classical than with the blues.

When Nick Lowe was at the Grammy Museum he said that when he first started writing songs he would nick (insert audience laughter) a little of this and that from music he listened too growing up. The first song he actually wrote that was completely his was 'What's So Fun About Peace, Love and Understanding?'. How's that for hitting one out of the park on your your first effort?

Scotty,
Irvine, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-09 19:44 by micknkeef@cox.net.

this is ground breaking IMO , how were they not sued for this stuff? very humbling to find this out

its like tracing a picture instead of drawing it or cheating on a test instead of studying

Wow, I knew a little about LZ and the Willie Dixon stuff, but didn't know about most of these others!! Holy shit, instead of calling them a good band I will now refer to them as a good cover band LOL

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souldoggie
"My Girl Sloopy" was written by Bertrand Russel (Bert Burns) who also wrote the R&B hit "Piece Of My Heart" for Erma Franklin (Aretha's sister) but was also made a hit by Janis Joplin.

Incidentally, in the Dec. 9, 2010 ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE Keith Richards was asked to name his 10 favorite "Roots and Reggae" songs, and #6 was "Piece of my Heart" by Erma Franklin. Keith said of it: "Janis Joplin did a good job covering this. But Erma's got the stuff. She was Artetha's sister. Erma is rougher. Aretha's voice was more pure."

Zep DID get sued alot (or they settled a lot) by numerous artists.....