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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

I absolutely do not condone anyone pissing on anyone else--be they nuns, women, men, or even Don Was. Now, if it's a consensual act and nuns consented, well, that's obviously a different story and who am I to get in the way of anyone's fetish.

So right rocker, it was the red light district.

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge. Nothing against Lou Reed, but his solo work "on a much higher creative level" than Lennon on Plastic Ono Band and Imagine? No.

I think in retrospect Lou Reed's 'The Bells' is perhaps most comparable to John's 'Plastic Ono Band' album, as they are both predominantly autobiographical, and really quite powerful statements, outside the pop mainstream. They have also both been grossly underrated in the past. 'Berlin' as harrowing as it may be, is an non autobiographical scenario created by Lou's imagination. I think as solo artists Lou Reed has been the most proficient, even if judged by the output he released up to the time of Lennon's death. However, his output has been wildly uneven in quality, as he has jumped from one style/extreme to another, and he has been at one time or another heavily into drugs, which has also been reflected in the quality of his output. I believe though in much of what he's done, at least during the 70s, he's never been less than interesting, and the trait that is perhaps exclusively Lou's, and not so much the higher profile David Bowie, is how utterly he can transform himself from one style to another, chameleon like. You can listen to almost any of his albums from the 70s, and then move forward a year or two, and find an almost unrelated Lou, where the influences, and song structures are completely different, and it's like having to listen to another artist, one you've never heard of for the very first time. I think in the 80s Lou relaxed a lot more into recording music which was of a more consistent level, perhaps, where the sudden shifts in style was to a lesser degree, but much of his output proved perhaps a lot less interesting. 'New York', for all its critical plaudits, was actually a very conservative album by Lou's standards. It is certainly not bad, and stands up pretty well as a selection of inter related, observational songs, but the creative jest found in his more extreme ventures of the 70s was long gone, and for me that was what always made Lou fascinating. However, the 80s musically was pretty conservative in many ways anyway, and certainly by 89, upon 'New York's release.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 08:53 by Edward Twining.

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge. Nothing against Lou Reed, but his solo work "on a much higher creative level" than Lennon on Plastic Ono Band and Imagine? No.

Im a fan of Lou but Lennons output 1968-1970 is stunning on a different level. Lou Reeds work as a solo artist could be great but not in the same way. Kill your sons, Berlin, Transformer. Later songs like What's good or Starlight. VU was the best rock band, in many ways way better than the Stones or the Beatles. I think Stones and Beatles cant be compared to anyone really, they were too big and famous.
Mc cartneys solo career is boring but he had some very good tunes, riffs and even a couple of great songs. His first album is charming, I like it.
But no truly great rock album like Lennons first. It's a piece of art, his great American novel: something Lou almost accomplished.
It's what killed Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts. What Hendrix did with his right hand to your ears and soul. What Mick tried to do on Let's work.

On topic: Lennon almost slept with his mother. Give the guy a break.

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Redhotcarpet

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge. Nothing against Lou Reed, but his solo work "on a much higher creative level" than Lennon on Plastic Ono Band and Imagine? No.

Im a fan of Lou but Lennons output 1968-1970 is stunning on a different level. Lou Reeds work as a solo artist could be great but not in the same way. Kill your sons, Berlin, Transformer. Later songs like What's good or Starlight. VU was the best rock band, in many ways way better than the Stones or the Beatles. I think Stones and Beatles cant be compared to anyone really, they were too big and famous.
Mc cartneys solo career is boring but he had some very good tunes, riffs and even a couple of great songs. His first album is charming, I like it.
But no truly great rock album like Lennons first. It's a piece of art, his great American novel: something Lou almost accomplished.
It's what killed Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts. What Hendrix did with his right hand to your ears and soul. What Mick tried to do on Let's work.

I don't even own "New York" and "Magic Or Loss", and everyone who knows me, realizes that this is huge in my world. I pretty much used to revere Lou. But more and more his materail became tuneless; a vehicle to deliver your poetry. The "songs" might as well have been read. Thi is a pity IMO because Lou has always been a great musician too, in addition to his lyrics.

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Palace Revolution 2000
I don't even own "New York" and "Magic Or Loss", and everyone who knows me, realizes that this is huge in my world. I pretty much used to revere Lou. But more and more his materail became tuneless; a vehicle to deliver your poetry. The "songs" might as well have been read. Thi is a pity IMO because Lou has always been a great musician too, in addition to his lyrics.

...Howdie Palace! I never 'revered' Lou - I always was a fan of his (including the Velvet U.), but a moderate one. But I know exactly what you mean, here...
Still, it's ironic that you don't own "New York" & "Magic or Loss"; the first is a catchy rocker with plenty of ('real') songs on it; and the latter is very-very introspective, I admit - but at least the song "What's good" is a stand-out track on it... in fact, it's a CLASSIC - in my world... ) (one of) My personal Lou Reed favourite(-s)! Really everybody should get to know it. So if you don't, go ahead and find it! You won't be disappointed.

Take care -

["I can hear the Bullfrog calling me..."]

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Redhotcarpet
... Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts.

No again. L.A. Woman is a great album; who knows what the Doors could have been, had Jim Morrison been alive for any longer.

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Redhotcarpet

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge. Nothing against Lou Reed, but his solo work "on a much higher creative level" than Lennon on Plastic Ono Band and Imagine? No.

Im a fan of Lou but Lennons output 1968-1970 is stunning on a different level. Lou Reeds work as a solo artist could be great but not in the same way. Kill your sons, Berlin, Transformer. Later songs like What's good or Starlight. VU was the best rock band, in many ways way better than the Stones or the Beatles. I think Stones and Beatles cant be compared to anyone really, they were too big and famous.
Mc cartneys solo career is boring but he had some very good tunes, riffs and even a couple of great songs. His first album is charming, I like it.
But no truly great rock album like Lennons first. It's a piece of art, his great American novel: something Lou almost accomplished.
It's what killed Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts. What Hendrix did with his right hand to your ears and soul. What Mick tried to do on Let's work.

what kiled Jim Morrison was the pressure he was under because of the miami incident and trial and of course heavy drinking and drugs

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ghostryder13
what kiled Jim Morrison was the pressure he was under because of the miami incident and trial and of course heavy drinking and drugs

And in my estimation being dismissed by the band as a live singer after the 1970 New Orleans concert. I think that L.A. Woman was generally well received, and he played it in Paris; it might have given the band a new impulse.

Another clue to show you Lennon was a d!ck :

"Lennon borrowed a couple of words, added the three unfinished ideas and the result was "I Am the Walrus". The Beatles' official biographer Hunter Davies was present while the song was being written and wrote an account in his 1968 biography of the Beatles. Lennon remarked to Shotton, "Let the @#$%& work that one out."
[en.wikipedia.org]

Wow! What an intelligent person!

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
... Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts.

No again. L.A. Woman is a great album; who knows what the Doors could have been, had Jim Morrison been alive for any longer.

I agree, LAW is a great rock album, I had it in mind. Classic.

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Wry Cooter
Anyone remember Frank Fontaine on the Jackie Gleason Show as Crazy Guggenheim? His whole act was mocking the developmentally delayed (not referred to as that then of course). At the end the bit he'd go into a song -- his hearty baritone not missing a step. Very weird. My old man would get extremely pissed off as he worked with the disabled and mentally challenged. Those were different times for certain!




Crazy Guggenheim.

This is a prime example of today's political correct non-sense. I work in a profession dealing with the droolers now. Every 6 months or so we get to a meeting and there is a new reference term that must be used.

Mentally Retarded went to mentally handicapped. Then it went to mentally challenged. Now they are developmentally disabled. Specific people went from patients to clients then consumers and now individuals. I wonder if any of the mentally retarded citizens even give a damn.

And oh by the way, as long as we are whishing for car wrecks, can anyone put O'bama in the bed of a truck.

I ma putting my headphones back on and turning up Sympathy.....

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Redhotcarpet

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
... Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts.

No again. L.A. Woman is a great album; who knows what the Doors could have been, had Jim Morrison been alive for any longer.

I agree, LAW is a great rock album, I had it in mind. Classic.

A Morrison Lennon almost get together: Morrison was at a big concert in Toronto I believe that Lennon was at. And Lennon and Yoko apparently dissed Jim by barking at him like dogs, of course, for a good period of time. Jim was disappointed because I think he had hoped to meet them.

LA Woman is an excellent piece of work and was well received. The doors were hoping for Jim to return, get it togethr, and tour with Jerry Scheff on base which would free up Ray for more keys and fatten the sound. If they added a second guitar. . .. Just imagine that sound! If only. . ..

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deadegad

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Redhotcarpet

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
... Jim Morrisson who failed despite some quite promising efforts.

No again. L.A. Woman is a great album; who knows what the Doors could have been, had Jim Morrison been alive for any longer.

I agree, LAW is a great rock album, I had it in mind. Classic.

The doors were hoping for Jim to return, get it together, and tour...

I never read they at some point changed their minds about not performing again with Jim Morrison after the New Orleans concert. But a tour would have been great, and now probably have been legendary.

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

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Gazza

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

I say: Be equal! Piss on them all!!!

- Doxa

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Gazza

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

Where am I going with this? I always loved Lennon's music and message, but when you hear some things about him, like the pissing on some Nuns walking by, I guess he really was an @#$%& sometimes.

Lennon really did not do the right thing by Julian. Having known a couple of families whose fathers abandoned them that makes me sympathetic towards Julian.

I have some serious issues with the catholic church, and other denominations, but think it is uncool do something like what Lennon is alleged to have done.

Here I am in this thread defending him against the 'insensitivity towards the handicapped charges' based on some harmless clowning in the video, but he appears to be as some other poster said a real 'dick.' Most of these types of incidents seem to have occurred when he was younger, old enough to know better (sounds familiar), but earlier in life, nevertheless. He grew up a bit, but, seriously let his eldest son down. And it is not like he did not have the resources to do more. He did do a better than President Obama's deadbeat dad though.

Clapton himself seems to be a gentleman, a class act, compared to Lennon.

Hats off to Clapton and the other Beatles for being nice to the granny.

The Stones: "We piss anywhere, man!"
Lennon: "You mean garage walls? How daring, boys.."

That Lennon guy was a badass, wasn't he? ><

By the way, at the time Wyman was talking about making an autobiography he speculated with a three-book series of which one volume would consist barely of "funny incidents".. a lot of dirty stories he said... One can only imagine how much there might be worth of anything that kind of material when a bunch of 20 years old guys travel the world, enjoying the freedom, drinking together, and having guys like Brian and Keith who both supposedly had quite a nasty humour... That Jimmy Phelge guy already from the Edith Grove flat also shares his first-hand knowledge of the guys' filthy WC humour, putting microphones to toilet, etc.... The walls were painted by something else than Muddy's white paint... I leave it here. Naughty boys...

- Doxa

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Doxa
The Stones: "We piss anywhere, man!"
Lennon: "You mean garage walls? How daring, boys.."

That Lennon guy was a badass, wasn't he? ><

By the way, at the time Wyman was talking about making an autobiography he speculated with a three-book series of which one volume would consist barely of "funny incidents".. a lot of dirty stories he said... One can only imagine how much there might be worth of anything that kind of material when a bunch of 20 years old guys travel the world, enjoying the freedom, drinking together, and having guys like Brian and Keith who both supposedly had quite a nasty humour... That Jimmy Phelge guy already from the Edith Grove flat also shares his first-hand knowledge of the guys' filthy WC humour, putting microphones to toilet, etc.... The walls were painted by something else than Muddy's white paint... I leave it here. Naughty boys...

- Doxa

No that's not badass at all. To the contrary, that is chickenshit behavior. Badass is being a man.

Here is a guy who writes Woman is Nigger of the World, but may have urinated on some Nuns passing by. That's not badass. It is Ike Turner like abuse of women. If Lennon had any balls he pick on someone who could, and would fight back.

That incident is as badass as the scene in the Harrison Ford movie Witness when some local punks pick on the non-violent peace loving Amish people who were traveling by horse and buggy. The Amish don't fight back.

President Obama's grandmother is more of a man than Lennon or Obama's father for that matter. When Obama's dad ran away from his responsibilities to father a child he brought into this world, and Obama's mom was away and then died young, his grandmother took him in raised him while working. That's something to be respected. Obama's Grandmother was being a man when the man copped out -- That's badass.

Lennon unfortunately neglected his son and yet he had tremendous resources to do otherwise. He realized it later in life, according to what I've read, but it was too late. I know people who met Lennon during his later years and said that he was nice, so he grew.

Yet pissing on Nuns, making masturbation gestures to an old lady, is not badass. It's pathetic and chickenshit.

Once again hats off to Clapton and the other Beatles for being more evolved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-05 04:04 by deadegad.

Lennon, a few good songs, but he was a whiny ahole...insecure and jealous of
MJ and PM, and he grew...exactly the way mama yoko told him to.

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deadegad

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Gazza

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

Where am I going with this? I always loved Lennon's music and message, but when you hear some things about him, like the pissing on some Nuns walking by, I guess he really was an @#$%& sometimes.

Lennon really did not do the right thing by Julian. Having known a couple of families whose fathers abandoned them that makes me sympathetic towards Julian.

I have some serious issues with the catholic church, and other denominations, but think it is uncool do something like what Lennon is alleged to have done.

Whooooooooooooooooooooosh!

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Gazza

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deadegad

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Gazza

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

Where am I going with this? I always loved Lennon's music and message, but when you hear some things about him, like the pissing on some Nuns walking by, I guess he really was an @#$%& sometimes.

Lennon really did not do the right thing by Julian. Having known a couple of families whose fathers abandoned them that makes me sympathetic towards Julian.

I have some serious issues with the catholic church, and other denominations, but think it is uncool do something like what Lennon is alleged to have done.

Whooooooooooooooooooooosh!

Not sure what that means, but I guess Lennon urinating on some Nuns passing by is cool with you.

He was a punk. They were all punks. At a young age they battled with authority and with themselves. Punks are often celebrated. Keith, Johnny Thunders, Iggy, Lou, Sid...and there is that self destructing anarchy of the mind that battles the world and creates some amazing art. Lennon was a punk. He battled deep demons. But most people are battling some kind of demon and do things that we are ashamed of, learn from and experience. Those same passions though led to an incredibly introspective man who wanted to turn from that darkness and find some kind of harmony and peace in his soul. Knowing the wrong, the pain and injustice that was inflicted on him led him to be angry at the world and try to inflict that same pain on anything that symbolized authority. He was a true Boheme in later life, dabbling in radical politics, peace activism, outrageous public performance, humor and cutting social observations. He moved on from having to piss on the world to putting the mirror up to the world to see its own reflection of hypocrisy. I just am thinking which one of us is perfect with no faults? I would love to meet that person, and the world might be able to learn a lot from such a person. But we are humans, and imperfect. This isn't meant as a justification of the unsavory aspects of Lennon as a person. But what a compelling way to learn about ourselves by analyzing the art of his music and life.

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deadegad

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Gazza

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deadegad

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Gazza

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deadegad

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rocker1

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

Where am I going with this? I always loved Lennon's music and message, but when you hear some things about him, like the pissing on some Nuns walking by, I guess he really was an @#$%& sometimes.

Lennon really did not do the right thing by Julian. Having known a couple of families whose fathers abandoned them that makes me sympathetic towards Julian.

I have some serious issues with the catholic church, and other denominations, but think it is uncool do something like what Lennon is alleged to have done.

Whooooooooooooooooooooosh!

Not sure what that means, but I guess Lennon urinating on some Nuns passing by is cool with you.

I think it means lighten the F up....All this stuff happened forty years ago and to go on and on for 6 pages about it, is just silly....But I don't want to put words in Gazza's mouth.

We are judging people like Lennon here from a very limited and moralistic perspective. The first problem with this is, people are not static, they change and evolve. How many of us would like to judged today based on our own equivalent of "pissing on nuns" when we were 17 (or whatever age)? The thing that makes an artist like Lennon great, is that he or she incorporates these experiences into their art - the pain, conflict, etc., whether self-inflicted or imposed from outside (both, in Lennon's case). What separates a Lennon from most of the rest of us is the ability to do just that - to take these experiences and turn them into art. This was his gift. Does that mean it's a good thing to piss on a nun, beat up your friend, or neglect your child? Absolutely not. But here it is: "I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. Man I was mean but I'm changing my scene". (I know, a Paul song, but John wrote those lines). The ability to write something this powerful and honest is what made Lennon a great artist, and yes, I would say a great man. We are sometimes confusing greatness with saintliness. Those are two different things. And Lennon would be the first to say "I Was Great" but the last to say he was a saint.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-05 06:05 by 71Tele.

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whitem8
He was a punk. They were all punks. At a young age they battled with authority and with themselves. Punks are often celebrated. Keith, Johnny Thunders, Iggy, Lou, Sid...and there is that self destructing anarchy of the mind that battles the world and creates some amazing art. Lennon was a punk. He battled deep demons. But most people are battling some kind of demon and do things that we are ashamed of, learn from and experience. Those same passions though led to an incredibly introspective man who wanted to turn from that darkness and find some kind of harmony and peace in his soul. Knowing the wrong, the pain and injustice that was inflicted on him led him to be angry at the world and try to inflict that same pain on anything that symbolized authority. He was a true Boheme in later life, dabbling in radical politics, peace activism, outrageous public performance, humor and cutting social observations. He moved on from having to piss on the world to putting the mirror up to the world to see its own reflection of hypocrisy. I just am thinking which one of us is perfect with no faults? I would love to meet that person, and the world might be able to learn a lot from such a person. But we are humans, and imperfect. This isn't meant as a justification of the unsavory aspects of Lennon as a person. But what a compelling way to learn about ourselves by analyzing the art of his music and life.

I hear what you are saying. He did grow, somewhat. He did not grow enough to right the wrongs he committed to his own son. That's not a small thing. It is massive.

His message of ' give peace a chance' and 'love' are good, but as Julian said, not an exact quote, 'Daddy says for everyone in the world to love each other but why doesn't he love me?'

I am not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone here but the 'who is without fault' thing, well, The three other Beatles and Clapton come immediately to mind when compared to Lennon reprehensible behavior. Regarding Lennon's constructive abandonment of his own son: I have mentioned President Obama's Grandmother as an example of a humble woman who rose to the occasion to parent a fatherless, and eventually motherless child, and is more of a 'man' than Lennon. Facts are stubborn things. People of lesser means are brought to court and go to jail for things like this. Sorry but there it is. Lennon was not, however, as bad Obama's dad though.

I do not know how much of this thread you have read through, but I actually defended Lennon against being deemed insensitive to the handicapped based on that video clip. I saw a young guy clowning around, that's all. When i mentioned that i am critical of his lack of a relationship with his son Julian despite having plenty of ways and means, money, to do the right thing, some here did not like that. When new revelations of Lennon being an obscene jerk to an old lady and urinating on some Nuns passing by were mentioned by others here at IORR, and I commented negatively on it, some did not like it. Those incidents are indefensible irregardless of Lennon's age at that time as Clapton seemed to get, and the other Beatles were cool enough to be kind. I did allow, however, earlier in this thread that people I know who met him seemed to indicate that he grown up a bit from those days, but there is the glaring case of poor Julian. John Lennon let his son Julian down terribly despite some late in the day effort to correct it.

Lennon's creative pop-rock music and artistic integrity and call for a more peaceful world are worthy of praise and remain so.

What ever ones religion, philosophy,atheist, agnostic, or otherwise, if there is an afterlife then perhaps in that next phase of being our souls may recognize that some of the greatest things they did were kind of the unsung things. The unsung heroic things. Meaning in some cases they get up go to work and raise a child, like Obama's Grandmother did, like Cynthia Lennon did, and John Lennon did not with Julian, and all the other souls we will never hear about who did not get the public adoration that John Lennon got while he was alive here, let alone have the means. We may admire these persons more than the famous John Lennon.

We may in the future learn more from these souls, these unknowns,the unglamorous.

In some other thread I mentioned that the next time you are at the imagine mosaic in Central Park in New York City, or hear a news story about the anniversary of Lennon's assassination, we would all do well to remember the unsung heroes, Cynthia Lennon, Obama's Grandmother, and all the unknowns out there who with far lesser means than John Lennon rose to the occasion and 'maned-up' to take care of children in need, other people's children in fact.

These people, kind, worthy souls, really deserve to be lauded before John Lennon.

Thank you. You thoughtfully addressed what was being discussed here and make some important points.

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We are judging people like Lennon here from a very limited and moralistic perspective. The first problem with this is, people are not static, they change and evolve. How many of us would like to judged today based on our own equivalent of "pissing on nuns" when we were 17 (or whatever age)? The thing that makes an artist like Lennon great, is that he or she incorporates these experiences into their art - the pain, conflict, etc., whether self-inflicted or imposed from outside (both, in Lennon's case). What separates a Lennon from most of the rest of us is the ability to do just that - to take these experiences and turn them into art. This was his gift. Does that mean it's a good thing to piss on a nun, beat up your friend, or neglect your child? Absolutely not. But here it is: "I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved. Man I was mean but I'm changing my scene". (I know, a Paul song, but John wrote those lines). The ability to write something this powerful and honest is what made Lennon a great artist, and yes, I would say a great man. We are sometimes confusing greatness with saintliness. Those are two different things. And Lennon would be the first to say "I Was Great" but the last to say he was a saint.

Excellent post. Even very early on he showed a remarkable self-awareness. Even in '64, when he wrote, "I'm a loser. And I'm not what I appear to be".

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There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

I hope you guys are joking, or taking a piss, no pun intended.

You are not seriously suggesting that it is OK to urinate on a group of Nuns, or women in general?

who said anything about 'women in general'? And why stop at women? Are you suggesting its wrong to do it to women but ok to do it on men? Where are you going with this?

Where am I going with this? I always loved Lennon's music and message, but when you hear some things about him, like the pissing on some Nuns walking by, I guess he really was an @#$%& sometimes.

Lennon really did not do the right thing by Julian. Having known a couple of families whose fathers abandoned them that makes me sympathetic towards Julian.

I have some serious issues with the catholic church, and other denominations, but think it is uncool do something like what Lennon is alleged to have done.

Whooooooooooooooooooooosh!

Not sure what that means, but I guess Lennon urinating on some Nuns passing by is cool with you.

It means youve clearly had a sense of humour by pass as it would have been quite obvious to pretty much everyone else that all of my previous comments were tongue in cheek.....

And so what if he did it anyway? He was about 20 years old and it was 50 odd years ago. Get over it.