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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge.

I could also call it more spiritual and romantic. Lennon seems to have been more politically and therapeutically oriented; not really what I would associate with rock. More the spokesperson of a progressive generation than a rocker.

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

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whitem8
I agree Tele. Don't get me wrong, I like Lou, but Lennon spoke to the heart and soul.

Now to say Another Day is better the Maybe I'm Amazed? That I can't agree with. Maybe I'm Amazed is without a doubt one of Macca's best songs that he wrote. One of his top five classics. I espcially like the live version from Back in The World (or USA). The Wings Over America version is great as well, and charted as a single.

Odd that the original studio version was never released as a single. He probably thought that forcing people to buy the McCartney LP in order to get Maybe I'm Amazed would increase sales of the LP, which I'm sure it did. Maybe I'm Amazed was SUCH a standout track, so much better than anything else on the album, there would have been little reason to buy the LP if Maybe I'm Amazed had been available as a single.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:51 by tatters.

Oh Tele, yes I agree with what you were saying about George. But I think Living in A Material World is a great album! I love it. I am on the fence about which is better, Plastic Ono Band or All Things Must Pass... they are so different, but so incredible in their own ways. ATMP really is an incredible statement, both in content, sound, and packaging. Imagin always left me a bit cold. A bit too slick and over produced. I much prefer the outtakes from the Lennon Anthology, they are rawer, especially I Don't Want to Be Soldier. And man, (Well) Baby Please Don't Go with Bobby Keys is incredible!

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge.

I could also call it more spiritual and romantic. Lennon seems to have been more politically and therapeutically oriented; not really what I would associate with rock. More the spokesperson of a progressive generation than a rocker.

Lou's solo records are pretty strange, some sound really honest and resonant while others kind of fake, though he's always been a brilliant songwriter. Lennon was always absolutely honest, even if he completely changed his views every 2 years, he was always true to himself.

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whitem8
Oh Tele, yes I agree with what you were saying about George. But I think Living in A Material World is a great album! I love it. I am on the fence about which is better, Plastic Ono Band or All Things Must Pass... they are so different, but so incredible in their own ways. ATMP really is an incredible statement, both in content, sound, and packaging. Imagin always left me a bit cold. A bit too slick and over produced. I much prefer the outtakes from the Lennon Anthology, they are rawer, especially I Don't Want to Be Soldier. And man, (Well) Baby Please Don't Go with Bobby Keys is incredible!

I agree with you about Imagine, but all Beatle solo albums started to sound a little bit sterile to me as they used more professional sidemen. Plastic Ono Band is so raw, and it happens to have the best Ringo drum sound on any recording, ever. Someone mentioned "rock". I can't think of anything that rocks better or nastier than "I Found Out". Lennon's guitar speaks like his voice on that one. Dirty, nasty and aggressive...On the other side of things, I think "Maybe I'm Amazed" is a brilliant recording, made all the more brilliant by the fact that Paul played all the instruments, which was a harder chore in the pre-digital days. I love his drumming and guitar playing. Whitem8, I'll have to go back to "material World". I remember it being something of a letdown at the time, but hey, that was a very long time ago.

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stones78
Lou's solo records are pretty strange, some sound really honest and resonant while others kind of fake...

I was refering to his early work, so like the five first albums. That's a very creative artist at work, with many great songs. I stopped buying Lou Reed records somewhere in the eighties; I thought they became less interesting.

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz

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Redhotcarpet
Lennon was truly a genius who made some remarkable music with the help of the Beatles and on his own. The first solo album is the best rock album by a solo artist ever.

How about Lou Reed's early solo work?! On a much higher creative level, and more rock, IMO.

Rock schmock. What a useless and meaningless standard by which to judge.

I could also call it more spiritual and romantic. Lennon seems to have been more politically and therapeutically oriented; not really what I would associate with rock. More the spokesperson of a progressive generation than a rocker.

Again, I don't know what you mean. Lennon's first solo album was about pain and anger (along with some love). I can't think of any better emotional perspective from which to make a great rock & roll album. There was almost nothing political on Plastic Ono Band, except maybe "Working Class Hero" (a little). It was a highly personal album.

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71Tele
Lennon's first solo album was about pain and anger (along with some love). I can't think of any better emotional perspective from which to make a great rock & roll album.

I think Berlin was about complicated love relationships, sex, drugs, suicide and generally about real life; more traditional romanticism. I don't care about Lennon's personal feelings; I want to hear good, interesting songs.

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lsbz

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71Tele
Lennon's first solo album was about pain and anger (along with some love). I can't think of any better emotional perspective from which to make a great rock & roll album.

I think Berlin was about complicated love relationships, sex, drugs, suicide and generally about real life; more traditional romanticism. I don't care about Lennon's personal feelings; I want to hear good, interesting songs.

So do I. Which again is why Plastic Ono Band is great. I would say Sometime In New York City on the other hand, is an album where Lennon did not turn his feelings into compelling music, and merely created pedantic rants. I admit I am not qualified enough to comment on Lou Reed's entire body of work, so I won't.

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71Tele
I admit I am not qualified enough to comment on Lou Reed's entire body of work, so I won't.

In my opinion, you should at least have heard Berlin, Sally Can't Dance and Rock&Roll Animal. The first two are, with a few exceptions, the top of songwriting.

"Caroline says - as she gets up from the floor
You can hit me all you want to, but I don't love you anymore"

I think that's much more creative and real life than "woman is the nigger of the world".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:02 by lsbz.

I totally agree with you Tele about Plastic Ono Band. A raw emotive album with haunting beauty, betrayal, and introspective pain. Pain from his heart and non fiction. As real as an artist can get, perhaps Blood on the Tracks is the only other contender for baring so much personal angst. And yes, Lennon's guitar on the entire disc was stunning. Reminds me a lot of Keith. That heavy slab of rhythm that is unrelentless. I Found Out and Well, Well, Well, are as hard as nails. I love that Scorcese used Well, Well, Well, on The Departed. And the juxtaposition of that raw hard edged style with the gentle beauty of Love, and the powerful ballad of alientation Isolation is another stunning aspect of the album. A major statment in all ways.

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lsbz

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71Tele
I admit I am not qualified enough to comment on Lou Reed's entire body of work, so I won't.

In my opinion, you should at least have heard Berlin, Sally Can't Dance and Rock&Roll Animal. The first two are, with a few exceptions, the top of songwriting.

"Caroline says - as she gets up from the floor
You can hit me all you want to, but I don't love you anymore"

I think that's much more creative and real life than "woman is the nigger of the world".

I have heard some of those records and they are good, but then you go and compare Reed to a song on what I already said was a bad Lennon album in my previous post! (Sometime In New York City). You compared the best of Reed with the worst of Lennon. I was discussing Plastic Ono Band, and I'll put "Love" from that record up against anything "romantic" by Reed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:15 by 71Tele.

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lsbz

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71Tele
I admit I am not qualified enough to comment on Lou Reed's entire body of work, so I won't.

In my opinion, you should at least have heard Berlin, Sally Can't Dance and Rock&Roll Animal. The first two are, with a few exceptions, the top of songwriting.

"Caroline says - as she gets up from the floor
You can hit me all you want to, but I don't love you anymore"

I think that's much more creative and real life than "woman is the nigger of the world".

you may not like it as much as Berlin. And I agree Berlin is a fantastic album. But no more real than Plastic Ono Band. Sometime in NY City was not well liked, and Woman is the Nigger of the World is a pretty heavy statement from a once loveable mop top. I have a soft spot for STINYC. There are smoe pretty intresting things on it and it is a snapshot of a highly volatile and political period. And even Yoko puts out some intersting stuff on it. We're All Water was the template for Blondie and The B-52s, and it rocks pretty hard! But what you really are saying is that you prefer Lou over Lennon, which is fine. But doesn't make him better. I like them both, but for me, Lennon spoke to my soul a lot more than Lou. But I am lucky, I love 'em both...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:17 by whitem8.

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whitem8
... Woman is the Nigger of the World is a pretty heavy statement from a once loveable mop top.

Maybe, but you should not say it like that in a piece of art. It's a nice find, but too explicit. But I don't think it's true either; women have enormous power over men. Man may be the nigger of the world.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:22 by lsbz.

Too strong? That was the point! And it is not anything about the power women have over men, it is about how Women have been treated like slaves for hundreds of years. And the 60's and 70's was when woman's lib was becoming a major force. And Lennon for years had treated women terribly. And Yoko enlightened him to the power of women and the struggle they endured. And it is funny because you are obviously a fan of Lou, but what about Lou's song, I Wanna Be Black? "I wanna be black, have natural rhythm
Shoot twenty foot of jism too
And fvck up the jews! ....
I wanna be black, I wanna be like malcolm x
And cast a hex
Over president kennedy’s tomb
And have a big prick, too"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:28 by whitem8.

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whitem8
And Lennon for years had treated women terribly.

Probably not without reason.

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whitem8
... what about Lou's song, I Wanna Be Black?

"I wanna be black, have natural rhythm
Shoot twenty foot of jism too
And fvck up the jews! ....
I wanna be black, I wanna be like malcolm x
And cast a hex
Over president kennedy’s tomb
And have a big prick, too"

But that's obviously very funny. It's not serious or half-serious. But not one of his best songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:35 by lsbz.

OH my! I am hoping that this is a translation error, or missunderstanding, but when you repond to my comment that Lennon treated women terribly for years and your response was "probably not without reason..." So you mean he was justified in his ill treatment of women? I hope that is not what you mean. Lennon, as always, was very candid about his ill treatment of women, and how unaware he was of his chauvanism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:37 by whitem8.

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whitem8
OH my! I am hoping that this is a translation error, or missunderstanding, but when you repond to my comment that Lennon treated women terribly for years and your response was "probably not without reason..."So you mean he was justified in his ill treatment of women?

No, never justified. But every man can get to the point that he gets angry with women, and in my experience they often share the responsibility for that. Real life could probably be improved, but while it hasn't been, denying reality does more bad than good. And it's done way too often; moralism won't help you much.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 04:48 by lsbz.

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lsbz

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whitem8
OH my! I am hoping that this is a translation error, or missunderstanding, but when you repond to my comment that Lennon treated women terribly for years and your response was "probably not without reason..."So you mean he was justified in his ill treatment of women?

No, never justified. But every man can get to the point that he gets angry with women, and in my experience they often share the responsibility for that. Real life could probably be improved, but while it hasn't been, denying reality does more bad than good. And it's done way too often; moralism won't help you much.

Your post would make sense if men got beaten up by women with roughly the same frequency as women get abused by men, but that isn't the case. Sadly, there are still places in parts of the globe where women really are "the nigger of the world". Might not have made a great song, but Lennon was right.

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71Tele

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lsbz

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whitem8
OH my! I am hoping that this is a translation error, or missunderstanding, but when you repond to my comment that Lennon treated women terribly for years and your response was "probably not without reason..."So you mean he was justified in his ill treatment of women?

No, never justified. But every man can get to the point that he gets angry with women, and in my experience they often share the responsibility for that. Real life could probably be improved, but while it hasn't been, denying reality does more bad than good. And it's done way too often; moralism won't help you much.

Your post would make sense if men got beaten up by women with roughly the same frequency as women get abused by men, but that isn't the case.

Psychological abuse can incite physical abuse.

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71Tele
Sadly, there are still places in parts of the globe where women really are "the nigger of the world". Might not have made a great song, but Lennon was right.

No, he wasn't. He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz

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whitem8
OH my! I am hoping that this is a translation error, or missunderstanding, but when you repond to my comment that Lennon treated women terribly for years and your response was "probably not without reason..."So you mean he was justified in his ill treatment of women?

No, never justified. But every man can get to the point that he gets angry with women, and in my experience they often share the responsibility for that. Real life could probably be improved, but while it hasn't been, denying reality does more bad than good. And it's done way too often; moralism won't help you much.

Your post would make sense if men got beaten up by women with roughly the same frequency as women get abused by men, but that isn't the case.

Psychological abuse can incite physical abuse.

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71Tele
Sadly, there are still places in parts of the globe where women really are "the nigger of the world". Might not have made a great song, but Lennon was right.

No, he wasn't. He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

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71Tele

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lsbz
He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

I've been *dating* actual independent women; I know what they are like. Their opinions are propaganda; their side of the story.

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz
He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

I've been *dating* actual independent women; I know what they are like. Their opinions are propaganda; their side of the story.

I find it incredible that you are dating anyone. Women are probably afraid of you. With good reason!

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tatters

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz
He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

I've been *dating* actual independent women; I know what they are like. Their opinions are propaganda; their side of the story.

I find it incredible that you are dating anyone.

Were dating women, in the nineties mostly. I don't have the energy anymore if they're not seriously interested.

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tatters
Women are probably afraid of you. With good reason!

I don't think so, but you'd have to ask them. From my point of view they're mostly more interested in their work and children (I've been dating divorced women mostly), and I don't think that's a good thing.

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz
He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

I've been *dating* actual independent women; I know what they are like. Their opinions are propaganda; their side of the story.

Well like the saying goes...give 'em enough rope and he'll hang himself. Keep on spinning buddy.

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whitem8

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lsbz

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71Tele

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lsbz
He probably never dated independent enough women to tell.

OK, you seem to know. But you might want to ask some actual women what they think.

I've been *dating* actual independent women; I know what they are like. Their opinions are propaganda; their side of the story.

Well like the saying goes...give 'em enough rope and he'll hang himself. Keep on spinning buddy.

Don't you think you should hear both sides?! Maybe you're a feminist?! Reality is not like Lennon's slogans; wake up.

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Gazza

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rocker1
There's the oft-repeated story that probably has some truth to it, that in his youth Lennon would stand on the rooftop and piss on nuns as they made their way to or from the convent. So this guy has some issues.

You talk about that 'habit' (see what I did there?) as if it's a bad thing or something....

Nah, not necessarily. Hey, if you gotta go, you gotta go. Look out below!!!

Oh now the real stuff comes out of all the dancing that has been happening. Of course life is not like Lennon's slogans, but his slogans woke up a lot of people to an alternate reality. I am not a feminist, I am a human, and believe in equality for all regardless of their sex, sexual preferance, race, or religion. The fact is that women were, and still are, in many places in the world, marginalized and controled by men. Need I mention the Middle East? But that is too easy, you can look to your own culture to find examples of it. Funny you say wake up when it is you that seems to be steeped in a heady brew of chauvinism. But another saying comes to mind. Issues are like tissues, pull one out and another is waiting for you.

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whitem8
The fact is that women were, and still are, in many places in the world, marginalized and controled by men. Need I mention the Middle East?

A more traditional male-female role pattern?! Some people seem to think that women wearing head scarves is oppressive, but I don't think so in general. Anyway, that seems more politics than art to me; I don't like that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-04 06:13 by lsbz.