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JumpingKentFlash

... but I do keep in mind that a) The artistic goal in this film, to me, seems more important than having complete songs,

well that is an artistic goal that's hard to grasp. It is well into 3/4 of the movie and it's the only time this occures. It jumps out of the frame completely.
there is a rhythm of docu-footage and songs which works real fine...but then, all of a sudden...

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and b) Connection is certainly not their best song by a long shot.
Scorsese could have made a film with no complete songs whatsoever if he wanted to. Who's to say that that couldn't have worked just as fine as your regular filmed Stones concert?

Scorsese could have dished out a very different movie, documentary or whatever - i'd still appreciate it.
As for the song selection, that just differs with personal taste - but I'd rather have seen Jack White's involvement cut to pieces than Connection.

Now one could ask - what's the use of all the naggin'?
well maybe, just maybe - the DVD is not yet in the can.
I read on this board that last minute changes had been done regarding the frontline ppl.
well, one can hope.

>And remember that Martin Scorsese isn't some bearded twat, but rather a filmmaker who wants to get a point across in his films.

Yeah, but what IS his point?

> If anyone should make a study of Mick Jagger's movements (Which is a great perspective for a Stones film)

is it?

>wouldn't you prefer it to be Scorsese rather than a frickin' yoga instructor? I certainly would!

No, because Scorsese is a movie director, not some pseudo-sociologist. If i want to watch some wanky perspective like that, then stick it on some late night arty documentary on BBC2, not a concert movie.

>I was actually hoping for a Stones concert film with some perspective, rather than the usual we-need-to-show-everybody-an-equal-amount-of-time (Case in point: The Voodoo Lounge concert DVD, the Bridges To Babylon concert DVD, Four Flicks and The Biggest Bang - Not that these flicks are bad at all, but one could wish for some sort of artistic stand point, rather than the usual focusing on the entire band and the event that is a Rolling Stones concert).

Dont think anyone's suggesting the whole band needs 'equal time'. Thats somewhat implausible and silly.


>I also think that the Connection cuts are OK. It's not like Scorsese sat around and butchered it on purpose to get some fans pissed off.

Then explain what his reasons ARE - because I for one cant see how this adds to a film. Its the reason why watching any music documentary on MTV, Vh1 and the like has become an exercise in futility. Relentless jump-cuts, edits and songs being hacked to bits which make them unwatchable and an endurance test. For feck's sake, what is seriously to be lost from having an interview followed by a complete performance of the song, rather than chop it into the middle of the thing, and hack it beyond recognition? We're talking about adding two minutes to the running time of the film here.

> I have faith in Scorsese having a point in doing this. He is, after all, the greatest director of all time.

Thats a purely subjective remark and even if he is, it doesnt make him infallible.Just because he made 'Raging Bull' it doesnt equate with making the perfect concert movie.

>Maybe we have to be careful to be too fanboy-ish when watching this. I don't think it's made with Stones fans in mind in particular (Cue: Catwalk babes in the FOS area). I think Marty made this to please his own artistic vision, rather than pleasing fans. And that's the way it should be in my honest opinion. If I wanted to see a concert film, which artistic goal was to please fans, I'd go see the Austin concert from The Biggest Bang or the Olympia concert from Four Flicks. This probably isn't the same and that's the main reason I can't wait to see it.

Maybe, but who on earth is going to pay money to sit in a cinema to see a concert film of a band they dont like? Of course its meant to be aimed towards fans of the Stones (to varying degrees of obsessiveness). You dont throw millions of quid at a movie production if you dont think its going to have an audience. I mean, I'd watch a film with Brando or DeNiro in it because their mere presence provides some interest even if the film doesnt sound like its much good, but i'd never watch a concert movie by an artist whose music I didnt like to begin with.

>Also we could very well get Connection on the soundtrack right? So it would be there instead of in the film, but we'll have it nonetheless. No worries.

The soundtrack is incidental. The film is the whole point of the entire venture, not some accompanying CD.

for what its worth, but I cannot imagine why anybody is shedding tears on ole Keiths recent tours trashy renditions of Connection in the SAL movie!!! its one of the best songs from Buttons, but I wonder if anybody would even consider a second listen of the "modern" version if it was not Keith, but an unknown singer. the way our boys butchered this song during ABB tour is beyond belief, and Keiths erratic vocals surely dont help to rescue it. sorry but thats my opinion. its an amateurish mess and I see a reason why Scorcese did not dare to include it in its cruelsome entirety. it probably was included to reproduce this "one ballad - one rocker" formula of Keiths set, and one can only imagine how bad Little T & A must have sounded if he felt forced to choose Connection instead. or was Little T & A deemed too controversial for american moviegoers? tits, asses, bad thing! if anything, Keith should stick to ballads and slow blues numbers at this stage of his vocal destruction, long gone are the days when his voice rang like a bell and obviously nobody dares to tell him. sorry but I think there is a reason why even diehard fans take piss-breaks during his set.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-12 19:49 by alimente.

smile: opinions are like a'holes, of course - some more than others.
Keith's singing is fine; and the point - again - is that if the number was deemed "not up to par"
for some reason that's not apparent from the audience recording open-g uploaded,
it would've been way less jarring to omit it entirely.
i don't know anyone who likes chopped-up numbers during concert films.
.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-12 21:21 by with sssoul.

I wish Stones would focus more on music at their prime, i.e. 70's and early 80's. Or hire someone to do it rather than this Scorcese old man who probably is not even an average fan. The milking of this thing is unbelievale and it makes you sick... I get 1000% more satisfaction looking or listening to upgrades of Knebworth, El Mocambo, Paris 76 etc etc that you know is out there.

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with sssoul
smile: opinions are like a'holes, of course - some more than others.
again: if the number was deemed "not up to par" for some reason, it would've been way less jarring to omit it entirely.
i don't know anyone who likes chopped-up numbers during concert films.
.

and some a'holes even stink, but so what!? (insert smiley here!)

I think that Scorcese is a careful man and probably saw the danger of only one Keith song in the movie - disappointed and moaning Keithaholics! I mean, even with two Keith songs in the movie (although one being butchered) theres much critic opinions out there that the movie is a "Mick movie". so one complete Keith song and one in consumer-friendly shortclips obviously serve to balance this Mick-heaviness out a bit!

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Bitch2
I wish Stones would focus more on music at their prime, i.e. 70's and early 80's. Or hire someone to do it rather than this Scorcese old man who probably is not even an average fan.

Is it the green colour that makes folks go ballistic?

Just for the record, the guy's name is SCORSESE (Marcantonio Luciano Scorsese) and not ScorCese!


C

"the way our boys butchered this song during ABB tour is beyond belief"
(Alimente, on Connection)

I think we're livin' in paralel or at least totally opposite universes.

Usin' words as "amatuerish" & "Stones" in same sentences is to totally missin' the point.

It's only rock 'n roll and we like it.

If that Scorsese character dont put in the whole song in the production as much as possible
at this particular point in the process; I'm gonna organize riots & huge demonstrations.

And Connection is one of the funniest and bravest song-choices last years.

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Baboon Bro
"the way our boys butchered this song during ABB tour is beyond belief"
(Alimente, on Connection)

I think we're livin' in paralel or at least totally opposite universes.

Usin' words as "amatuerish" & "Stones" in same sentences is to totally missin' the point.

oh, just use one of the download options in this thread and listen. if afterwards you still think that I am missing the point then I would believe in your parallel universe theory.

"It's only rock 'n roll and we like it."

of course. I also love the New Barbarians although their performances were also, mmmh, a bit erratic at times, or better: more often than not!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-12 21:22 by alimente.

>> much critic opinions out there that the movie is a "Mick movie" <<

you're confusing two different criticisms.
the exaggerated focus on Mick isn't a result of Scorsese hacking up part of Keith's set.
it's a separate issue; and it is a disappointment, because the world already has
a good long list of Mick-centred Stones films. i guess i just hoped for a more original approach.

a separate problem: hacking up a number in the middle of a concert film is a bad idea.
so this butcher job is done on a number that i'd love to witness, and you'd rather have a pee break instead -
so run along and have a blast! just don't barge around interfering with people enjoying the performance.
the point (again!) is that these cuts are done in a jarring way that detracts from the film.

and by the way ... the film isn't a collection of "all-time greatest renditions".
it's about energy & joy & glorious raunch,
and that Connection open-g posted sounds fine & rambunctious to me.
.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-13 14:57 by with sssoul.

Hey Piotr, I was wondering when we were going to hear from you! Despite the fact that I'll be bitching about seeing too much of Mick and the butchering of Connection I still can hardly wait for April 4th to finally see this movie. Is anyone from here planning on attending the big Shidoobee gettogether in New York that night?

Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind...

Shouldn´t we all be happy because there´s a film made by a great director???

Why moaning...?

Hey it sound like its a very good film overall. Of course not everyone will be 100% happy, but this round of bitchiness over Connection ranks up there as much as any Wood/Taylor debate ever has. Looking forward to seeing it, and hearing it myself on April 4

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marquess
Shouldn´t we all be happy because there´s a film made by a great director???

Why moaning...?

now thats exactly my point! those "Connection butchered" - whiners & moaners create the impression that the movie is ruined for them to a certain degree. one tends to think theyre not happy with the movie in general and have chosen Connection as a focus point for their disappointment!!! as I said, I think this is totally exaggerated!!! there was a life before Connection being butchered and there certainly is a life after Connection being butchered!

however I still believe that Beacon performance is a less than stellar performance, many bum notes and bum chords. as a lover of the New Barbarians I surely have no problem to take this, but for general public consumption an uncut version was probably considered problematic by Scorsese.

God, will I be happy when this Connection business ends. So much time, so many words. A few posts should have taken care of it.

It has become pointless and inane. Get a life.


P

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timbernardis
God, will I be happy when this Connection business ends. So much time, so many words. A few posts should have taken care of it.

It has become pointless and inane. Get a life.


P

Yes, very sensible point. But being sensible is not what being a fan is about is it? It is a very puzzling matter to me and I can't stand puzzles that are not solved. As I understand it, the movie is focussing on the magic of a Stones performance and in the eyes of the director of the movie Mick Jagger is a major factor that creates the magic. Although I don't agree with it, I can understand it. Many artists through the years have had some kind of obsession with Mick with his androgyneous sex appeal, as one can see in numerous references in literature and paintings etc. So I would even understand it if the director would have decided to show only one Keith song, maybe even if only for pointing out the difference between Micks presence on stage and Keith'. I would be disappointed of course, but I would understand. But the main puzzling question is: why show bits and pieces of Connection and not the entire song. If I read the reviews from those who saw the movie correctly, it is the one and only song that received this treatment. There has to be a reason for that, hasn't it?
Listening to the version of Connection Open G posted (please everyone have mercy for me for posting the Oakland version by mistake, I truely thought it was the one from Beacons) I don't think the performance in itself was the reason. So what was?

Good points . It's a not a film made for hardcore fans.
To most of the world the Rolling Stones are Mick Jagger.
It can be as simple as that if you want.

"I think he'd have chopped the bejesus out of it to be honest"

Wow Gazza, nice use of the word bejesus!

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marcovandereijk

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timbernardis
God, will I be happy when this Connection business ends. So much time, so many words. A few posts should have taken care of it.

It has become pointless and inane. Get a life.


P

Yes, very sensible point. But being sensible is not what being a fan is about is it? It is a very puzzling matter to me and I can't stand puzzles that are not solved. As I understand it, the movie is focussing on the magic of a Stones performance and in the eyes of the director of the movie Mick Jagger is a major factor that creates the magic. Although I don't agree with it, I can understand it. Many artists through the years have had some kind of obsession with Mick with his androgyneous sex appeal, as one can see in numerous references in literature and paintings etc. So I would even understand it if the director would have decided to show only one Keith song, maybe even if only for pointing out the difference between Micks presence on stage and Keith'. I would be disappointed of course, but I would understand. But the main puzzling question is: why show bits and pieces of Connection and not the entire song. If I read the reviews from those who saw the movie correctly, it is the one and only song that received this treatment. There has to be a reason for that, hasn't it?
Listening to the version of Connection Open G posted (please everyone have mercy for me for posting the Oakland version by mistake, I truely thought it was the one from Beacons) I don't think the performance in itself was the reason. So what was?

<<< If I read the reviews from those who saw the movie correctly, it is the one and only song that received this treatment. There has to be a reason for that, hasn't it ? Listening to the version of Connection Open G posted (please everyone have mercy for me for posting the Oakland version by mistake, I truely thought it was the one from Beacons) I don't think the performance in itself was the reason. So what was ? >>>

My recollection is that the cuts to various bits of archival footage related to the title of the song (at least I guess something like that would have been in Scrosese's mind when hel elected to do what he did with this particular song) - seems he was interested in focusing on the "connection" between Mick & Keith etc. I cannot recall what the various bits and pieces that he cut to actually were, whether they were snippets of other performances from the past or ancient interviews or whatever, but I think he probably tried to get something out of the fact that either between individual members of the Stones themselves there is a "connection" - or else one between the band as a whole and something/someone else ?

Make sense ?

Nope - probably not ? Just my 2 cents worth ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-13 11:18 by paulywaul.

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Spud
Good points . It's a not a film made for hardcore fans.
To most of the world the Rolling Stones are Mick Jagger.
It can be as simple as that if you want.

I am not so sure if this really is so simple anymore. I think Keith Richards makes headlines almost as easily as Mick nowadays. Keith's cameo in pirate movie got more attention than Mick's any movie involvement since Performance. Keith is a big celebrite (to be made fun of Letterman or Conan shows, etc.), and if you ask from the younger generations of today, I don't think they consider Mick Jagger any bigger star than Keith.

(Funny detail: once upon time Keith's name Richards was reduced to "Richard" to sound more 'poppish' like Cliff Richard. Nowaydays, at least in Finnish media, when Sir Cliff is mentioned - like now when he bashed the Beatles - his surname is many times printed as RichardS - I wonder how and come has the 's' appeared; how the media people seem to make that mistake...)

I think that the reason why Scorsese concentrates so much on Mick is quite simple: like any casual watcher in the audience it is really difficult to keep the eyes off from Mick. He just happens to steal the attention with his showmanship. Even though Keith really enjoys nowadays taking his part of the frontmanship ("sharing the duties" or "is fooling around" ), it's not so constant performing and acting than what Mick does. Jagger NEVER rests - (expect while Keith 'sings' his songs) - there is no one on the stage that could cover HIS ass.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-13 11:29 by Doxa.

>> the cuts to various bits of archival footage related to the title of the song <<

as i recall it, most of the snippets intruded into Connection were from the 1999 Chris Evans interview:
Ronnie & Keith responding to the "who's the best guitarist" question, and some No Security concert footage.
(was that little montage of various 1970s court situations also during Connection? i don't remember.)

as for the bitching & moaning about the bitching & moaning ...
smile: i'm usually derided for being "too positive", so at least it's different! :E
so let's talk about all those extra numbers listed at the end of the film instead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-13 12:30 by with sssoul.

>>>>let's talk about all those extra numbers listed at the end instead.<<<<

Yeah, another puzzle to solve. But this is a real hard one for those of us who did not see the movie, because for example it is hard for us to judge if there were any teeny weeny tiny bits of songs hidden in the movie somewhere (like the famous Coca Cola experiment).

>> it is hard for us to judge if there were any teeny weeny tiny bits of songs hidden in the movie somewhere <<

yeah that might explain a few of them, but certainly not all of them. there were a lot.
i've only seen the film once myself, mind you, and didn't have a chance to memorize what's listed,
but one possibility that occurred to me is: could some of them have been from Buddy Guy's opening set -
maybe that's slated for inclusion as "bonus material" on the dvd?

does someone who was at the Beacon (not "Beacon's", dear marco!) remember if his set was also filmed,
and/or does anyone have his set list?

I can't beleive how irate you lot are getting over a film you haven't even seen?

Gaz even seems pissed of that Scorsese had some artistic invlovement???

Chill out and wait till its released!

smile: if folks want the discussion to move away from what people feel are flaws in the film,
maybe talking about something else would be a way to achieve that? just a thought ... :E

ablett, do you happen to know if Buddy Guy's set list from the Beacon is on line somewhere?

I'm really very happy about a new Stones-release no matter if it's a film, cd or whatever. I'm eating everyrhing raw! Sooo excited!

[www.reverbnation.com]

NOV 1 - SET LIST - Beacon Show#2
Show time - 9:42 - Stones HIT the Stage!

1 - Jumpin Jack Flash

2 - Shattered 9:46

Mick said sorry about last night. Made a comment about being in his S&M costume for Halloween but nobody showed. John says they sound tighter tonite than Sunday.

3 - She Was Hot 9:52

4 - All Down The Line 9:57 - Ronnie nailing the slide

5 - Loving Cup 10:03 - w/Jack White

6 - As Tears Go By 10:09

Mick mentions the film & says he knows at least a couple thousand will buy it.

7 - I'm Free 10:14 - Keith singing harmony

8 - SOME GIRLS!!! 10:19 - John says they're having FUN with it & Mick is sounding GREAT! WOW!

9 - Just My Imagination 10:21 - Jagger switches guitars mid-song

10 - Far Away Eyes 10:33 - Jagger on acoustic, Wood on Steel Pedal - Keith singing harmony... Mick & Keith sharing the mic - crowd goes WILD!!

11 - Champagne & Reefer 10:39 - w/Buddy Guy - Keith jamming with a ciggie in his mouth.
John wants to know who said the set list would be about the same - I told him DOUG - he laughed!

12 - Tumblin Dice 10:45

INTROS 10:50
From Brooklyn - Lisa... From Queens - Bernard... From South Africa-Blondie
Rockin' Ronnie Wood on Guitar
On drums Mr wang dang doo Watts - Charlie.. says "hi" into the mic

Keith - amazing ovation. Says Beacon is his favorite room. Mentions the Winos.
KEITH SET = 2 songs

13 - You Got The Silver 10:55 (KR) - Crowd singing along

14 - Connection!!!! 11:00 (KR) - John says he's stunned - Really rocking. Keith wearing a coat that looks real piratey with a skull pin with swords on the lapel.

15 - Sympathy for the Devil 11:04
Jagger & Richards playing on opposite sides of the theatre. Bernard & Lisa move to the front of the stage.

16 - Live With Me 11:11 - w/Christina Aguilera - John says she sounds fantastic again!

17 - Honky Tonk Women 11:16

18 - Start Me Up 11:20 - Keith facing Charlie ripping out licks!
(Why in hell did I come home instead of staying in NYC??) Still riffing away!! John says - My God! They sound incredible tonight!!

WAITING FOR ENCORE

19 - Brown Sugar 11:26

20 - Satisfaction 11:32 - John says the crowd is really "into" it - much different than Sunday night folks. Jagger is dancing like crazy! Lots of strobes - He doesn't remember that from Sunday's show.

OVER -11:38 - Doing the bows. With Christina & Jack, too. Ronnie throws a rose into the crowd. KR gave someone something in the front row but not clear on this.

cool ... is Buddy Guy's set list around anywhere?

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ablett
I can't beleive how irate you lot are getting over a film you haven't even seen?

Almost as absurd as being enthusiastic and raving about a film you havent seen?

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ablett
Gaz even seems pissed of that Scorsese had some artistic invlovement???

I never said that at all, so stop making shit up. I'm just confused as to his 'point' in hacking a song to pieces and asking what people think that doing so adds to the film. So far, no one has come up with a rational response. Maybe YOU have one?

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ablett
Chill out and wait till its released!

You totally miss the point, as do several others in this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing it as much as you are or anyone else is, and Scorsese happens to be my favourite director and someone who IMO has been responsible for two of the three best music films ever made (No Direction Home and The Last Waltz). Any comments I've made have been in response to the reviews posted by people who HAVE seen it. Should we all just be cheerleaders and nod catatonic-style over what people love about the film and yet let what aspects they dont like pass without comment?

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alimente
now thats exactly my point! those "Connection butchered" - whiners & moaners create the impression that the movie is ruined for them to a certain degree. one tends to think theyre not happy with the movie in general and have chosen Connection as a focus point for their disappointment!!! as I said, I think this is totally exaggerated!!! there was a life before Connection being butchered and there certainly is a life after Connection being butchered!

Exaggerated bollocks. Show me one post where someone said they thought the film was ruined for them or (once they see it) would be ruined as a result of this? Why do so many basic discussions in this forum have to be distorted into simply black and white arguments - ie, if you have a minor critical opinion of anything at all, it means you hate the whole thing from beginning to end. Its two minutes out of two hours. A small flaw that would have been easy to remedy without altering the feel or flow of the movie.

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alimente
the way our boys butchered this song during ABB tour is beyond belief

matter of opinion (and theres an irony there in your earlier comment about whining and moaning ) , but IF the version at the Beacon was edited because it was crappy, then heres a simple solution - use another friggin' song entirely.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-13 14:37 by Gazza.