Well said Gazza.
That's the bottom line.
[except it won't be... because folks can't leave it alone ;^) ]

--
klypp wrote:

All this Keith stuff worries me a bit. Not that it's not true, but it consistently makes us forget the REAL problem with the group these days.
Have you noticed how Mick always forget his opening line at this tour? He comes out and sings "Start me up!". Every time! And we all know that the correct line should be "If you start me up..." That's 2 out of 5 words lost! What's wrong with him?
---

If Mick sings three instead of five words than because he wants it so.
Also Mick is busy to hold everything together and watch for or ignore keiths playing while he has to sing in time and tune.

If Keith forgets lyrics, whole song passages, and plays the @#$%& up solos he plays these days than because he can´t better now.

And this has not got better since the start of this european tour.
I also don´t want them to be an embarrassement. But Keith actually already is, at least to the not "blue eyed hardcore stones for ever" fans, but for the 90% of not stones fans that go to the shows.

it leaves a bad last impression of that great band.

Keef RULES!

This morning I was listening to Arrow Classic Rock at AM 675 here in The Netherlands and they kept saying in between songs 'we're doing a special Stones program here on Arrow today' without any further information on why or what. I have to admit that for a s econd I thought something really bad had happened! I mean why on earth is a radio station playing only Stones songs?!? This whole Keith health thing is getting out of hands!

Best song btw I heard was Come On, only 43 years old, but man what a power!

Wilco

I agree with you about health being the individuals own business to an extent.But if that individual is an entertainer or performer and their performance is going to be impaired because of their poor health,then its a different matter.When fans are paying mega bucks to see a shitty performance then its a real different story.

BUT, except for a few gigs at the start most reviews have been glowing? So where's the "shitty" performance?

it really gets me when people boil the whole thing down to - hey ! i pay my MONEY, so he/they just better PERFORM. yeah, it costs a fortune for most of us - but i really don't think it's the fault of the Rolling Stones themselves - it's hard for me to believe that they personally would give much of a sh-t about the money at this point. I wish the tickets cost less though, then i'm pretty sure they'd sell out almost everywhere !

Read the comments in the reviews for Madrid.It seems that some fans would still pay dosh to see Keef just stand on stage ,let alone play.I think many are in denial about what is happening.It's nice for fans to defend their super heroes,but its a concern when they are in denial.I mean Sinata went on right to the end and was a real embarassment,yet fans paid big bucks for him,and he could hardly sing or remember the words.Is that where we are at with Keef?

This is where it all gets way outta hand.

Since when had Keith recently resembled an 80 year old Sinatra? Thats just ludicrous!!

Most who support the band are not in denial at all and are certainly not guilty of over exaggeratinga mans health!

ablett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is where it all gets way outta hand.
>
> Since when had Keith recently resembled an 80 year
> old Sinatra? Thats just ludicrous!!

not quite. to answer your question: when he played entire solo and up to the end in wrong scale during Honky Tonk Women or forgetting lyrics and song structure of Happy, both belong to his signature tunes!!! Honky Tonk Women he must have played often enough that "errors" like these are unexplainable. it happened in Madrid and that was "recently" or dont you agree?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-03 13:30 by alimente.

stargroover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Read the comments in the reviews for Madrid.It
> seems that some fans would still pay dosh to see
> Keef just stand on stage ,let alone play.I think
> many are in denial about what is happening.It's
> nice for fans to defend their super heroes,but its
> a concern when they are in denial.I mean Sinata
> went on right to the end and was a real
> embarassment,yet fans paid big bucks for him,and
> he could hardly sing or remember the words.Is that
> where we are at with Keef?


well okay, i didn't mention keith's health in that particular post but i can assure you that i am not in denial about it. i've been reading a lot of these emotional threads lately (actually, i haven't been doing any work for days, i think i really need to get out of here for a while ! oh well, i'm so psyched about this friday in rome that i can't do any work anyway - the posts about "shitty performance" keith do make me worry about him and other things, and then the ones about "brilliant or normal performance" happy keith (which thankfully seem to outnumber the shitty ones now) make me totally psyched and happy. I guess I just don't tend to connect the whole situation to the high price of a ticket, which sure ain't keith's fault anyway.

i guess i understand your point in general, but......sinatra ?????!!!!!!!!!!! i don't think so !!!!!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-03 13:52 by loochie.

"not quite. to answer your question: when he played entire solo and up to the end in wrong scale during Honky Tonk Women or forgetting lyrics and song structure of Happy, both belong to his signature tunes!!! Honky Tonk Women he must have played often enough that "errors" like these are unexplainable. it happened in Madrid and that was "recently" or dont you agree?"


Two songs m8! Your earlier suggestion is that KR is some senile old wreck? Hasn't KR always made errors throughout his career? I've read many reviews over the years where he's got the into to BS wrong etc. etc....

Also at other recent gigs hasn't he also been magical throughout? I'd suggest that some here are now looking for errors where once they accepted them as being part of the KR experience.....

There will always be fans who will continue to attend gigs regardless of the quality of the performance or performers.I have no problem with that.Those guys will be there at the bitter end.But to be paying top notch prices for an entertainer who WAS at the top of his game and can no longer remember lyrics and riffs to songs he has played to death is crazy to me.Not only that ,its incredibly sad to see the Riff Master a shadow of his former self.

The comparison with Sinatra is obvious.Yes he was a lot older than Keef,yet fans over looked the errors because they worshipped the ground he walked on.

Study the reviews and make your judgements from the latest gigs you attended.When people like Dean Goodman talk about his demise in their reviews and contemplate walking out theres something up.I did the reviews in IORR magazine for the South America leg when Keef was playing great,I have seen over 100 shows in the last 25 years,so give me some credit.It's not the same Keef anymore,whatever the reason......

Another comparison is with Chuck Berry in recent years (but again, he is a lot older than Keith)...

Hasn't KR always made
> errors throughout his career? I've read many
> reviews over the years where he's got the into to
> BS wrong etc. etc....
>
> Also at other recent gigs hasn't he also been
> magical throughout? I'd suggest that some here are
> now looking for errors where once they accepted
> them as being part of the KR experience.....


No he hasnt. He has made "errors" but he has alwyas delievered. He has always had a great timing, being the great artist he is. It's not the bum notes, it's playing whole solos in the wrong key and seemingly being out of it a little too long. He was high as hell at Knebworth 1976 and played like a god.
It's one thing to be high in the 70s/80s, he always played great and when he missed notes it really didnt matter, the perfromance was great anyhow, he always saved the song anyhow. The energy was there, the sharp timing etc. He seemed to love every moment.
Same with the 80s. And 90s although Im not a fan of their 90s (with some exceptions). He seems tired now. I'm not used to that and it's strange to see him like that onstage. Not always, not every concert (?) or every song but often enough to make a difference.

I'd like to think you can' compare keith to anyone?

Especially Frank bloomin Sinatra!

And I've seen and heard absolutely no evidence that would possibly make me wanna walk out of a Stones gig! I fully accept the BAND aint what it was but then at this stage in there career I neither expect it.

But talk of KR physical and mental demise is voyeuristic, sensationalism....

LA Forum He's 64! Your talking about 30 years ago! I could climb trees in them days!

And keith never played a bum note during 76, 78, 81-82?

And aint "No he hasnt. He has made "errors" and contradiction?

stargroover Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you about health being the
> individuals own business to an extent.But if that
> individual is an entertainer or performer and
> their performance is going to be impaired because
> of their poor health,then its a different
> matter.When fans are paying mega bucks to see a
> shitty performance then its a real different
> story.


Doesnt matter. You're still not entitled to an in depth analysis of an individual's medical condition, just because they happen to be in the public eye. In theory, if they are too ill to perform, then its really up to them to cancel. In an ideal world, they could tell you the reason why and it would be over and done with, but the public and media fascination for sticking their noses into people's private lives being what it is, it isnt that simple.

Speculation rather than analysis from what I can see.

I've shied away from this debate for some time...but as it rages on I would like to add my thoughts.

I don't know about being ill etc. I have attended over 30 Stones shows since '82 and was at the recent Barcelona concert.

Although it was another great gig I was left with the impression watching Keith that there were times in the show when he looked 'spaced out'/ dis-interested. He has lost that little sparkle in his eye / devil may care attitude.

Remember guys Keith has always lived for the stage but I just got the impression he wasn't overly interested (apart from the long ovation he received just before 'Silver') in being there.

Lets stop moaning / complaining...enjoy the rest of the shows this summer. And after August 26th we can then remeber the Stones as truly the 'Greatest Rock n Roll band in the world'.

You call it an in depth medical analysis?I think u need to read my post again or pick up a medical book

carouslambra Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I don't know about being ill etc. I have attended
> over 30 Stones shows since '82 and was at the
> recent Barcelona concert.

then you know very well about being ill! (don't worry, i suffer from the same malady . . .)

*and i'm just like that bird - singing just for you*

"Maybe word of the caustic reviews on these pages had filtered back to him. If so, it's proof that critical analysis, no matter how harsh, is more helpful than sycophantic paeans to Keith's omnipotence."

Who wrote that? Dean Goodman wrote that in his Lyon reivew.
[www.iorr.org]

I've said it before, they have always improved with bad reviews. They dont need yes sayers they need honest reviews. It brings out the best in them.

I can imagine Keith waiting on our every word......

Gazza Wrote:
In
> an ideal world, they could tell you the reason why
> and it would be over and done with, but the public
> and media fascination for sticking their noses
> into people's private lives being what it is, it
> isnt that simple.


Same media they have "manipulated" for over 40 years? You can't blame people, fans, media if you give a bad performance. They have used the media hypes thrugh their whole career and made a good living from it. Dont pretend its just about music, its also their lifestyle, reputation, history, their place in music history.

Please remember to post all random Keef posts about his weight, hair, medical issues, etc here...

Wherever that Honky Tonk Woman from Madrid link was posted, whatever thread that is, anyway, I watched and listened and anybody with ears has to know Keith was just... gone! I haven't seen any shows. I'm sure he's been great at times, but THAT! Hearing THAT performance of HTW! That's no small potatoes glitch. That's a train wreck. Bet your bottom dollar that however much we've been talking about it on this site, backstage they've been thinking about it just as much, and talking in hushed whispers for damn sure. I thought this was all a bunch of talk until I heard that HTW. It ain't all talk and there's substance to the concern.
I don't have to hear another clip to know they're charging a whole lot of money to hear a guy who ain't what he once was. Much as I love him, I heard that HTW and I don't have to hear it twice. You don't charge that kind of money to hear a guy play like that. It's wrong to do so. And don't give me any "if you don't like the prices, don't pay!" BS. I buy a loaf of bread, I expect no mold.
Tommy

>> Who wrote that? Dean Goodman wrote that in his Lyon reivew. <<

... so who is Dean Goodman, and what is he basing that fatuously self-important statement on?
this is a band with a 45 year history, out of which not even 10 years
have been plagued by the growing barrage of instant (and apparently insatiable) critics
blaring their views all over the internet practically before the show is over,
whether those views are insightful/intelligent/well-founded/pertinent or not.
why would anyone imagine that we're the ones who know what "brings out the best in them"?!




what brought that performance on, i wonder.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-06 09:24 by with sssoul.

Maybe Chuckaksed Keith to do it. It's a slow number but it swings and his voice is perfect there. It's a new live highligth now. What has a 45 year history to do it?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-07-06 09:24 by LA FORUM.

JUST CURIOUS...Does anyone else think that Keith has recently gained weight in his face? Mustache withstanding, he looks different. It almost looks as if he has gained a few pounds in his face and neck area. Maybe its just me!